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Warframe drops out of steams top 10 just after releasing an Big update.


(PSN)SolarPhantom82
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5 minutes ago, fish_wet said:

It`s actually quite simple to figure out , and I stated it  a couple of posts back. If it costs 20/30 bucks people buy.

Prime access , even the medium variant costs 79USD/EU.

It`s the same as why people get prime access , they like the game, as simple as it gets. Even if it`s flawed.

Yeah, but when the company straight up calls you bad players and slaps your wrist for wanting to play their game, I dont think any price would be low enough to play it. If Bungie werent big A-holes that shift the blame to their playerbase instead of getting their act straight I wouldnt be surprised in people buying the product. But getting abused by those you buy from because they cant face the fact that they only have themselves to blame and still buying their product, that is beyond my understanding. I'd get it if it was a S&M dungeon somewhere, since you often go there to get abused, but a game? Heck no.

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4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Player self hyping is not the same as DE intentionally hyping the content.

Seriously ..... So we blame the players now ..... There was no hype from DE ... come on , get a grip pls 🙂

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Just now, fish_wet said:

Seriously ..... So we blame the players now ..... There was no hype from DE ... come on , get a grip pls 🙂

For liches and empyrean no, there was no hype. Fortuna was hyped for a long time, on billboards, online, on discord, on twitter and so on with minigames and whatnot to build suspense. Empyrean and Liches just arrived in our laps with little info prior to it. With empyrean we knew it would be a space combat/archwing mode with a new type of equipment and that it would release in 3 phases. That is pretty much it. With liches we saw an early take on it at tennocon, then some litteral headshots of wip models aswell as some finisher moves tied to parazon. Heck, the parazon is probably the only thing that actually got hyped out of those two releases.

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

But in the end it is free to play, so what we see now or well, have seen since end of 2017 is normal.

What on earth are you talking about now? Warframe's population now is not the same as Warframes population in 2017. Warframe late 2017 was growing which is literally the complete opposite to what we can see now.

You arguments are all over the place Sneaky, and generally don't even make sense. I've completely lost track of whatever point you're trying to make.

Right now it seems to be "this is normal because all F2P games do this, Warframe will stabilise", which doesn't actually argue any point whatsoever, is a complete guess and has nothing to do with my initial post here. This isn't normal for Warframe, the player count is declining despite the recent updates. These are things you seem to think you can, and have, argued against, when the fact of the matter is that you cannot.

What people choose to do with the information is another matter entirely, if they overreact I'll laugh, if they pretend it's okay I'll roll my eyes, but it's ridiculous to sit there in denial and try and make a constructive argument. That applies to yourself, the person I originally quoted and anyone else under the impression that Warframe's playercount is "stable".

x95Iclk.png

And just for the sake of argument, there's the definition for "stable" as a descriptive. The closest definition there is the "patients condition" one. 

A patient who is getting healthier (growth) is considered stable, despite the fact that that is a change in health.

A patient who is getting sicker (decline) is considered unstable.l

The definition you seem to be tunnel visioning on to the exclusion of all others is the one where it's considered stable just because it's unlikely to fail. Something frankly irrelevant to any of the points I have raised. I've said as much, DE aren't in trouble right now, they won't be for awhile. Doesn't change the fact that there is a decline.

Just wasting my time at this point...

Edited by DeMonkey
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9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

What on earth are you talking about now? Warframe's population now is not the same as Warframes population in 2017. Warframe late 2017 was growing which is literally the complete opposite to what we can see now.

You arguments are all over the place Sneaky, and generally don't even make sense. I've completely lost track of whatever point you're trying to make.

Right now it seems to be "this is normal because all F2P games do this, Warframe will stabilise", which doesn't actually argue any point whatsoever, is a complete guess and has nothing to do with my initial post here. This isn't normal for Warframe, the player count is declining despite the recent updates. These are things you seem to think you can, and have, argued against, when the fact of the matter is that you cannot.

What people choose to do with the information is another matter entirely, if they overreact I'll laugh, if they pretend it's okay I'll roll my eyes, but it's ridiculous to sit there in denial and try and make a constructive argument. That applies to yourself, the person I originally quoted and anyone else under the impression that Warframe's playercount is "stable".

x95Iclk.png

And just for the sake of argument, there's the definition for "stable" as a descriptive. The closest definition there is the "patients condition" one. 

A patient who is getting healthier (growth) is considered stable, despite the fact that that is a change in health.

A patient who is getting sicker (decline) is considered unstable.l

The definition you seem to be tunnel visioning on to the exclusion of all others is the one where it's considered stable just because it's unlikely to fail. Something frankly irrelevant to any of the points I have raised. I've said as much, DE aren't in trouble right now, they won't be for awhile. Doesn't change the fact that there is a decline.

Just wasting my time at this point...

The way DE corrects course is to improve on Liches and Empyrean in a way that integrates with the classic combat/story narrative that is The New War.  It’s long overdue...expanding on what made the game great.

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

The way DE corrects course is to improve on Liches and Empyrean

Band aid fix to the root problem. Fix the root problem first, then they everything else will hopefully fall into place.

The root problem being the mess of project management that caused both Liches and Railjack, after years in development, to resemble a rushed few weeks of work.

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4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

What on earth are you talking about now? Warframe's population now is not the same as Warframes population in 2017. Warframe late 2017 was growing which is literally the complete opposite to what we can see now.

I was refering to the massive peaks and constant drops since the end of 2017. Those peaks and drops are normal for f2p games, it just took WF 4 years to reach the normalization of f2p games. The games live (and die) on losing and gaining players throughout their lifetime. All of them rely on picking up new or reattracting old players with their updates. And WF is stable because it falls into an acceptable healthy population even during its lowest lows. Population is not the only interesting thing either, we know WF is doing very well considering how well the sales are doing. What was it, number #1 premium sales on Steam at the end of 2019?

People also tend to be too lazy to look up the more interesting numbers, like how many unique active players the game has throughout a day/month. But that requires manual math and not just some charts, so it isnt really that interesting, even though it is simple.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Hype usually means ahead of time, over a lengthy period to attract players. The same day as the release, not so much.

Very true, even though people hate to accept it. And with the way CC's have acted since before Fortuna even more people have started to despise and avoid them. I should have probably clarified better. Most people dont give a flying crap about WF CC's, since they are currently some of the worst out there. Biting the hand that feeds them and so on. So DE placing "hype" at the hands of a CC will have a high chance of missing several players. 

So are you being intentionally ignorant to the boat load of advertising? Do you REALLY think de wouldnt hype the #*!% out of empyrean? Really?

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1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

I was refering to the massive peaks and constant drops since the end of 2017

Those peaks and drops appear over the course of several months. This decline has been here for a year.

They're nothing alike.

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It just took WF 4 years to reach the normalization of f2p games.

You're grasping for any excuse for DE, aren't you?

It's not that this year sucked, it's just normalisation of the playerbase...

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Population is not the only interesting thing either, we know WF is doing very well considering how well the sales are doing.

Yes, very interesting that a game with less players than previously managed to bring in more money during a year with complaints about monetisation.

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

People also tend to be too lazy to look up the more interesting numbers, like how many unique active players the game has throughout a day/month. But that requires manual math and not just some charts, so it isnt really that interesting, even though it is simple.

So simple that you didn't cite any, ay?

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1 minute ago, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd said:

So are you being intentionally ignorant to the boat load of advertising? Do you REALLY think de wouldnt hype the #*!% out of empyrean? Really?

What advertising? I havent seen any, heck I havent even seen a single "Warframe: Empyrean" banner on any gamesite for that matter prior to the release.

So please do point towards that "boatload". I think the advertising, if you can call it that fits in a toyboat made of a coconut shell.

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Just now, DeMonkey said:

Those peaks and drops appear over the course of several months. This decline has been here for a year.

They're nothing alike.

You're grasping for any excuse for DE, aren't you?

It's not that this year sucked, it's just normalisation of the playerbase...

Yes, very interesting that a game with less players than previously managed to bring in more money during a year with complaints about monetisation.

So simple that you didn't cite any, ay?

No, this year has indeed sucked, no denying that. The massive peaks and dips however started at the end of 2017 while the game still attracted new players. I even think I mentioned it back then when Rio was raging about the game bleeding players. 

I'm not grasping at anything, the chart shows that it took WF 4 years to normalize. There is no defending in that, that is just how it is. As I said earlier, was that good or bad for the game/company? It can have been both. Good in the sense that it didnt stop growing, bad in that it might have given DE too much confidence in continuing doing their thing, since whatever they did, the game kept growing, so apparently their decisions have looked like good ones to them. Which has probably let to what we have now, more trying of new things that doesnt fall in everyones taste. But that isnt certainly bad either, because that may get the game to find its actual audience.

I can give you a quick sample. I'm even be fair here. say we have 45k concurrent users and you want a daily avarage. You take 24 (hours of the day) and split them by avarage hours played. Then you take that number and multiply it with concurrent numbers. You end up with a good estimate of what the actual player count is throughout a day. Say the avarage player here plays somewhere around 1.5 hours a day, that gives us 16 full cycles of concurrent players, that is a bit over 700k on a daily basis passing through the game. The higher the avarage time, the lower the daily player count, the lower the avarage time, the higher the daily player count.

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3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The massive peaks and dips however started at the end of 2017

Are you even listening? Those were peaks and dips shown over the course of months. This a year long dip in which the major update that was supposed to cause a peak... didn't. Liches had more of an impact than railjack.

They are not the same.

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm not grasping at anything, the chart shows that it took WF 4 years to normalize.

That's grasping, plain and simple. You can come to the conclusion that Warframe has normalised when the playerbase reaches a stable (see - consistent) level and all other factors have been eliminated.

Because the only thing the chart shows is a downward trend that has not yet stopped. Any assumptions beyond that are guesswork.

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I can give you a quick sample.

This is not a sample, this is a means for me to find the numbers for myself, something I'm already capable of doing.

Cite some actual numbers if you think they disprove anything I've said, I've provided plenty.

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The Warframe we once knew is no more. We all got on the ride at a certain point and we stayed on it thus far because we enjoyed the ride, up until now. Not to say there are not people that still enjoy the ride currently, but that a big majority of the veteran players have seen DE's hand pull further and further away from veterans over the years and more so reaching out to the new casual players. There is no balance. Not asking for a handout for veterans, but a consideration of both sides for balance on input vs output. But majority wins in more cases than one. DE cannot market primarily to the smallest market being the veterans, I understand the situation stands for them to profit mainly from the casual/new players, so they will take the cake in terms of where DE aims their sights and ultimately the game. Not to say veterans will not stick around, some or a lot may. Decline or not, Warframe is doing well at least financially and I believe it will continue to do so. Of course it will lose players along the way and gain new ones. We all hopped on the ride because we saw something at the moment in time the ride was moving that we liked. The ride appears to be long from being over, but that doesn't mean the ride will never have an empty seat or filled one. 

 

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1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Band aid fix to the root problem. Fix the root problem first, then they everything else will hopefully fall into place.

The root problem being the mess of project management that caused both Liches and Railjack, after years in development, to resemble a rushed few weeks of work.

Having management experience, I think this is as much about skill level/talent level of the programming team as it is about production and efficiency.

It also gets compounded by the fact that the game still needs to be user-friendly for aging tech (Hence why Portal programming on Steve’s part was a fairly ingenious idea to solve that problem).

I wouldn’t call it a band-aid.

Rather, DE has a vision of where they want to go with the game as a product and just needs to keep improving so that vision becomes a reality.

And I’m saying that I think that Liches and Empyrean could be seen as new lines of service that have something to offer, but aren’t up to the 2017 standards for what is considered the core product.

Part of this, I think, is gradual implementation in stages.

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20 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I wouldn’t call it a band-aid.

I mean the rushed state of Liches and Railjack should not exist, ideally. The constant jumping between projects and releases evidently hasn't worked. Without fixing the cause of this problem the releases are going to continue being delayed and yet still releasing in a poor state, meaning more time than should be necessary then needs to be devoted to fixing problems that shouldn't exist.

Continuing development of Liches and Railjack is great, but it doesn't stop this happening again in the future, that's why I referred to it as a bandaid.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Having management experience, I think this is as much about skill level/talent level of the programming team as it is about production and efficiency.

It also gets compounded by the fact that the game still needs to be user-friendly for aging tech (Hence why Portal programming on Steve’s part was a fairly ingenious idea to solve that problem).

I wouldn’t call it a band-aid.

Rather, DE has a vision of where they want to go with the game as a product and just needs to keep improving so that vision becomes a reality.

And I’m saying that I think that Liches and Empyrean could be seen as new lines of service that have something to offer, but aren’t up to the 2017 standards for what is considered the core product.

Part of this, I think, is gradual implementation in stages.

Personally, I'd rather them hold content until it is complete. Imagine if, instead of getting beta-tester-level content trickled out, we got a massive update later this year; a full-blown, Fortuna-level expansion. In it contained Melee 3.0, a completed Railjack that functioned like the Tennocon demo shown a few years ago where you can call down your ship from a planet and blast off into space, with Liches threatening to invade your missions. Sure, there would be bugs and kinks to work out, probably just as many as there are today, but at least all of these systems would be connected and working together. People could at least see more profoundly the direction DE wants to go with this new content and it would more accurately align with the expectations of what was shown years ago. As of right now, these updates are still fragmented and unfinished.

I understand that from a business stance, approaching content as a yearly expansion has challenges. By trickling in content every month or so—finished or not— they can try to maintain player retention. If they hold off on content until it is closer to their final vision, it means people will be hysterical and cry about content drought and potentially lose interest in the game. I get it. Maybe there is no ideal approach, and DE does it this way to survive. But personally, I don't want to play an early-access version. I don't want to beta-test these systems individually. I want to experience it as it was advertised. I understand I might be in the minority for thinking this way, but I'm just going to wait until its all tied together before picking the game back up. My concern now is when will that be? When will all of these systems finally be intertwined? Is that what they have planned next? Or are they going to add another, separate piece of content to be experienced in its own bubble? How many more separate systems will be introduced before they go back and tie it all together?

Edited by IntheCoconut
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2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I mean the rushed state of Liches and Railjack should not exist, ideally. The constant jumping between projects and releases evidently hasn't worked. Without fixing the cause of this problem the releases are going to continue being delayed and yet still releasing in a poor state, meaning more time than should be necessary then needs to be devoted to fixing problems that shouldn't exist.

Continuing development of Liches and Railjack is great, but it doesn't stop this happening again in the future, that's why I referred to it as a bandaid.

I think the one thing that irked me the most (someone posted this) was the video of Steve specifically saying what he didnt want liches to be, and then it was like he was describing verbatim exactly what we got. Frustrated me that 3 years ago they had a system that felt too much like what they had right now, so they spent 3 years on it improving it only to release it with the exact same problems?

Obviously none of us know what goes on behind the stage, but that resonated with me so much.

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56 minutes ago, IntheCoconut said:

Personally, I'd rather them hold content until it is complete. Imagine if, instead of getting beta-tester-level content trickled out, we got a massive update later this year; a full-blown, Fortuna-level expansion.

Is it still acceptable to you if it wasnt later this year though, but later in 2022? You are just arbitrarily setting this timeline for perfectly polished content.... We really have no idea what it would take for DE to release a fully polished, completed, bug free piece of content because frankly I'm not sure we've ever seen it.

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52 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Is it still acceptable to you if it wasnt later this year though, but later in 2022? You are just arbitrarily setting this timeline for perfectly polished content.... We really have no idea what it would take for DE to release a fully polished, completed, bug free piece of content because frankly I'm not sure we've ever seen it.

I didn't say I expect a fully polished and bug-free experience. I in fact said I expect just as much (if not more) bugginess if they did a massive launch. But it would have been nice if Liches invaded you during Empyrean missions, as advertised. It would also be nice if we could be out in the open worlds, doing bounties, and call down our ships to skirt us away to Empyrean content, as advertised. I can only assume that they will add these things eventually, as they have said as much, but it has significantly dampened my enthusiasm.

It's like someone delivering me a pizza, one ingredient at a time. Here's my sauce. I got some veggies. Ooh, some pepperoni! Now I'll just wait for the dough so I can put it all together. Each time I get a new ingredient, it just makes me feel a little bit more impatient that I still don't have a pizza.

Edited by IntheCoconut
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Just now, IntheCoconut said:

But it would have been nice if Liches invaded you during Empyrean missions, as advertised. It would also be nice if we could be out in the open worlds, doing bounties, and call down our ships to skirt us away to Empyrean content, as advertised. I can only assume that they will add these things eventually, as they have said as much, but it has significantly dampened my enthusiasm.

No disagreements here, but who knows when it would've come, was my point. I suppose we will find out.

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