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Warframe drops out of steams top 10 just after releasing an Big update.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Having management experience, I think this is as much about skill level/talent level of the programming team as it is about production and efficiency.

It also gets compounded by the fact that the game still needs to be user-friendly for aging tech (Hence why Portal programming on Steve’s part was a fairly ingenious idea to solve that problem).

I wouldn’t call it a band-aid.

Rather, DE has a vision of where they want to go with the game as a product and just needs to keep improving so that vision becomes a reality.

And I’m saying that I think that Liches and Empyrean could be seen as new lines of service that have something to offer, but aren’t up to the 2017 standards for what is considered the core product.

Part of this, I think, is gradual implementation in stages.

Personally, I'd rather them hold content until it is complete. Imagine if, instead of getting beta-tester-level content trickled out, we got a massive update later this year; a full-blown, Fortuna-level expansion. In it contained Melee 3.0, a completed Railjack that functioned like the Tennocon demo shown a few years ago where you can call down your ship from a planet and blast off into space, with Liches threatening to invade your missions. Sure, there would be bugs and kinks to work out, probably just as many as there are today, but at least all of these systems would be connected and working together. People could at least see more profoundly the direction DE wants to go with this new content and it would more accurately align with the expectations of what was shown years ago. As of right now, these updates are still fragmented and unfinished.

I understand that from a business stance, approaching content as a yearly expansion has challenges. By trickling in content every month or so—finished or not— they can try to maintain player retention. If they hold off on content until it is closer to their final vision, it means people will be hysterical and cry about content drought and potentially lose interest in the game. I get it. Maybe there is no ideal approach, and DE does it this way to survive. But personally, I don't want to play an early-access version. I don't want to beta-test these systems individually. I want to experience it as it was advertised. I understand I might be in the minority for thinking this way, but I'm just going to wait until its all tied together before picking the game back up. My concern now is when will that be? When will all of these systems finally be intertwined? Is that what they have planned next? Or are they going to add another, separate piece of content to be experienced in its own bubble? How many more separate systems will be introduced before they go back and tie it all together?

Edited by IntheCoconut
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2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I mean the rushed state of Liches and Railjack should not exist, ideally. The constant jumping between projects and releases evidently hasn't worked. Without fixing the cause of this problem the releases are going to continue being delayed and yet still releasing in a poor state, meaning more time than should be necessary then needs to be devoted to fixing problems that shouldn't exist.

Continuing development of Liches and Railjack is great, but it doesn't stop this happening again in the future, that's why I referred to it as a bandaid.

I think the one thing that irked me the most (someone posted this) was the video of Steve specifically saying what he didnt want liches to be, and then it was like he was describing verbatim exactly what we got. Frustrated me that 3 years ago they had a system that felt too much like what they had right now, so they spent 3 years on it improving it only to release it with the exact same problems?

Obviously none of us know what goes on behind the stage, but that resonated with me so much.

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56 minutes ago, IntheCoconut said:

Personally, I'd rather them hold content until it is complete. Imagine if, instead of getting beta-tester-level content trickled out, we got a massive update later this year; a full-blown, Fortuna-level expansion.

Is it still acceptable to you if it wasnt later this year though, but later in 2022? You are just arbitrarily setting this timeline for perfectly polished content.... We really have no idea what it would take for DE to release a fully polished, completed, bug free piece of content because frankly I'm not sure we've ever seen it.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Is it still acceptable to you if it wasnt later this year though, but later in 2022? You are just arbitrarily setting this timeline for perfectly polished content.... We really have no idea what it would take for DE to release a fully polished, completed, bug free piece of content because frankly I'm not sure we've ever seen it.

I didn't say I expect a fully polished and bug-free experience. I in fact said I expect just as much (if not more) bugginess if they did a massive launch. But it would have been nice if Liches invaded you during Empyrean missions, as advertised. It would also be nice if we could be out in the open worlds, doing bounties, and call down our ships to skirt us away to Empyrean content, as advertised. I can only assume that they will add these things eventually, as they have said as much, but it has significantly dampened my enthusiasm.

It's like someone delivering me a pizza, one ingredient at a time. Here's my sauce. I got some veggies. Ooh, some pepperoni! Now I'll just wait for the dough so I can put it all together. Each time I get a new ingredient, it just makes me feel a little bit more impatient that I still don't have a pizza.

Edited by IntheCoconut

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Just now, IntheCoconut said:

But it would have been nice if Liches invaded you during Empyrean missions, as advertised. It would also be nice if we could be out in the open worlds, doing bounties, and call down our ships to skirt us away to Empyrean content, as advertised. I can only assume that they will add these things eventually, as they have said as much, but it has significantly dampened my enthusiasm.

No disagreements here, but who knows when it would've come, was my point. I suppose we will find out.

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1 minute ago, Skaleek said:

No disagreements here, but who knows when it would've come, was my point. I suppose we will find out.

And that's also my concern even as they dole it out piece by piece. I just know for me, this isn't how I want to experience this content. I don't envy their position and I think there are pros and cons no matter which approach they take. Either way, they'll reach the finish line, right? I'll just be taking a break for now, experience some other games on my ever-growing backlog, and then come back whenever its closer to what they advertised.

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1 minute ago, IntheCoconut said:

I'll just be taking a break for now, experience some other games on my ever-growing backlog, and then come back whenever its closer to what they advertised.

Good plan. I'm going to steal it.

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3 minutes ago, IntheCoconut said:

I'll just be taking a break for now, experience some other games on my ever-growing backlog, and then come back whenever its closer to what they advertised.

Ah the backlog, and the procrastination...

Started to get into my backlog of VR games I wanted to play, now that I've moved out and have much more room to myself. Also telling myself at the moment that I'm going to play through the Witcher trilogy properly... I probably won't, something else will come along.

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I feel there may three reasons for them to push out unfinished content early.

1. Just to make the players happy with some content even if it is filled with bugs and may not be as playable as the intended end product should be, but at least we can say we gave them content for last year right? I mean who likes hearing from all the anxious complaining impatient players about content drought, when all they do is blow through content in the first week and then cry for more?  

2. They needed to expedite the testing process if the current build by use of launching it out to the player base for them to test what they had so far; stress test, bug testing, loopholes etc. Problems can be solved for free when you have a bunch of free labor willing to test out your "new" product and find out the glitches for you and report them, regardless of the bad feedback. The more minds you have at work, the more problems that can be uncovered, and solutions to come up with for those problems. 

3. Maybe they truly believe content is ready to roll and may involve a few bugs here and there but that the product is mostly finished and if any bugs arise, players will usually report them.

 

I agree on holding content back until developer rightly believes that the product is ready as much as it can be, but then what would that mean for players who are impatient? They cannot risk losing players because they hold back on content for more weeks, months or maybe even a year or two, just to make sure the issues are ironed out? There's a fine line you can find yourself juggling on when it comes to releasing new content to a player base that is anxiously awaiting new content. RNG and time gates are all artificial fillers for extending the life of any content. Not all players can or will tolerate certain thresholds when it comes to RNG, and they know that, and more times than not, they have been appearing to appeal to those who aren't as patient as the rest of the minority who may be willing to grind through the RNG wall just to find that later on content is made trivial and rewards are given out like candy. Almost like a slap in the face to those who really worked for their share of the reward. But hey, they have the freedom to take this game wherever they want, and we have the freedom to continue on with them on this journey or not. 

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8 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Ah the backlog, and the procrastination...

Started to get into my backlog of VR games I wanted to play, now that I've moved out and have much more room to myself. Also telling myself at the moment that I'm going to play through the Witcher trilogy properly... I probably won't, something else will come along.

This is why I want to build a PC instead of going to the next gen Xbox; for the VR games and the variation of games that PC has to offer over consoles. I should have built one a long time ago after I graduated from college. The Witcher 3 is great, and I have not even played the first two in the series. 

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1 minute ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

The Witcher 3 is great, and I have not even played the first two in the series.

Other way around for me. I've played half the first game, about 2 hours of the second and not touched the third despite owning it and all it's DLC. Not sure what the turn off is, but I'm loving the Netflix series so far so I want to give them another try.

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Well games like NO Man Sky also promised a lot, did not deliver, but then they went back to the drawing boards.  They released a massive update which turns out to be good but they also let it out before it was less buggy.  They got new players and lost some during the bug fixes. Conclusion if they make something significant even after a long time players will come back.  But when you release buggy bs you arguably loose more. There is a difference if its buggy you loos people that may Never come back, but if they go play another game for a bit and you offer something Significant you may recapture their interest more long term.  Few game companies seem to grasp this.  Different Genre but I would say that games like Grim dawn that follow more of a DLC type of release do it better. 

 

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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Other way around for me. I've played half the first game, about 2 hours of the second and not touched the third despite owning it and all it's DLC. Not sure what the turn off is, but I'm loving the Netflix series so far so I want to give them another try.

Haven't started the TV series yet, but I always manage to play a game series in reverse order, except when I played F.E.A.R.; the only series I ever completed from start to finish of any game series. 

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Also worth mentioning that some if not most of the steam top games do not have a stand alone launcher like WF does. It could be skewing the our perseption as to how many are playing. This isnt counting the console playerbase either.

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2 minutes ago, INC3NSUS said:

Well games like NO Man Sky also promised a lot, did not deliver, but then they went back to the drawing boards.  They released a massive update which turns out to be good but they also let it out before it was less buggy.  They got new players and lost some during the bug fixes. Conclusion if they make something significant even after a long time players will come back.  But when you release buggy bs you arguably loose more. There is a difference if its buggy you loos people that may Never come back, but if they go play another game for a bit and you offer something Significant you may recapture their interest more long term.  Few game companies seem to grasp this.  Different Genre but I would say that games like Grim dawn that follow more of a DLC type of release do it better. 

 

I bought NMS during a sale this Christmas and I love it (heard about the rough mess when it released), but with my desires of building a gaming PC and seeing game play footage of Star Citizen, I am leaning more towards what that game looks like it can be, given it has the right direction and continued backing support. 

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23 hours ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

Because until you reach mr 19 stuff is locked away. Mr rank after 19 is just for ego. It doesn't do anything

It does, but ok, believe what you want.

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6 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I mean the rushed state of Liches and Railjack should not exist, ideally. The constant jumping between projects and releases evidently hasn't worked. Without fixing the cause of this problem the releases are going to continue being delayed and yet still releasing in a poor state, meaning more time than should be necessary then needs to be devoted to fixing problems that shouldn't exist.

Continuing development of Liches and Railjack is great, but it doesn't stop this happening again in the future, that's why I referred to it as a bandaid.

It will happen again.  It always happens.

Simply put, pressures force them to release an idea or concept that comes short of their initial, truly finalized (and ideal) vision.

It’s a lot like commercial art vs fine art.  The realities of business are that no matter how beautiful a piece of work has the potential of BEING, deadlines affect quality.

Warframe is like this big, beautiful but messy Mural that a bunch of painters are constantly expanding upon, looking to the influences of other painters as they do so, being influenced by onlookers as they go, some tossing money into their hats.  Copying other styles has given them some success, but they can’t lose sight of the fact that the original Mural is what made them famous...

Success has given them a chance to tackle their dream subject using the mural but it is huge now, making it far more challenging, both talent-wise and resource-wise, and a risk because stylistically it is very different and time-consuming but must still work with the rest of the painting.

They sometimes reveal a part of the painting that is unfinished or isn’t quite up to what they envisioned but they need people to keep throwing money in that hat.

Right now, I think DE is working to improve and blend different styles into one coherent and exciting picture so that it all comes together.

But for me, Empyrean may take up a larger part of the wall than that part of the tapestry that started it all, and it may take a higher degree of technical excellence, but if it doesn’t immerse me and inspire my like that original section that caused me to throw my money into the hat with wild abandon...well, I’m hoping the artists at DE just keep on painting and seek to improve it so that this wonderful mess of a painting comes together and excites me again on a larger scale.

And that is my hope for The New War...a return to what made Warframe great but on a grander scale.

 

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27 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Warframe is like this big, beautiful but messy Mural... 

This is probably closer to reality. :)

 

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9 hours ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

I feel there may three reasons for them to push out unfinished content early.

There’s a forth   its holiday season and people have money, we need to get attention to the game over the Christmas season to make money... DE do have owners to answer too… that’s why New war was dated Christmas 2019..

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I'm going to play through the Witcher trilogy properly... I probably won't, something else will come along.

Whatever comes along will have to be damned good to beat the witcher. 1 and 2 are rougher to play if you haven't read the books.  3 is a masterpiece though. 

Edited by Skaleek

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1 hour ago, Skaleek said:

  3 is a masterpiece though. 

Red Dead 2 for me. The Witcher series was cool. But God damn is this game gorgeous, and there is just so much to do. Been enjoying it for the better part of a year now. Love this game. 

 

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Il y a 12 heures, Nezha_Rose a dit :

Also worth mentioning that some if not most of the steam top games do not have a stand alone launcher like WF does. It could be skewing the our perseption as to how many are playing. This isnt counting the console playerbase either.

Steam numbers were used to praise DE and Warframe when the game was growing and it's normal, they are the only public information we have. So it's perfectly logical that those steam numbers are being used to acknowledge the fact that Warframe is losing player in 2019.

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22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Are you even listening? Those were peaks and dips shown over the course of months. This a year long dip in which the major update that was supposed to cause a peak... didn't. Liches had more of an impact than railjack.

They are not the same.

That's grasping, plain and simple. You can come to the conclusion that Warframe has normalised when the playerbase reaches a stable (see - consistent) level and all other factors have been eliminated.

Because the only thing the chart shows is a downward trend that has not yet stopped. Any assumptions beyond that are guesswork.

This is not a sample, this is a means for me to find the numbers for myself, something I'm already capable of doing.

Cite some actual numbers if you think they disprove anything I've said, I've provided plenty.

No one said they were the same, I said they started at the end of 2017, that is it. And it is because WF more or less peaked out when it came to picking up new players aswell as having their concurrent numbers increasing at a high rate at the same time.

How is it grasping? I'm just stating that WF climbed for 4 years before peaking out. That is exactly what the graph shows from the release to the end of 2017/start of 2018. It has nothing to do with the downward trend during 2019. They show two different things in the history of WF. Most games reach their peak in the first 6 months to a year, after that they've normalized and found their audience, which often results with a clear picture of their retention rate.

I ment example. And no we dont have those numbers here, hence why it was an example. And it is not about disproving anything, because they will not even represent the same numbers you discuss, I was simply pointing out that there are far more interesting numbers than the plain old concurrent one that everyone flashes from Steam. It would be far more alarming if we saw extremely low playtime among those daily users, since that would simply mean that people arent interested in what the game provides and just adds to the concurrent number by logging in and out. 

I've got no use to dig them up on steamdb or steamcharts because I've been around enough of it previously in other games over the years. So I have no trouble on going on what I see in game coupled with concurrent numbers. They clearly tell me that there is no need to cry wolf or run to the hills because the game has a solid playerbase even at the lowest of lows. I'll just rather wait and see. It would need to drop at an alarming rate in order for me to worry. I didnt worry about PoE when it dipped well below 20k on Steam after having been one of the most played and best selling games ever. And see where it is now, back among the top. Why did I not worry? Because it is normal f2p behavior.

 

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17 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Other way around for me. I've played half the first game, about 2 hours of the second and not touched the third despite owning it and all it's DLC. Not sure what the turn off is, but I'm loving the Netflix series so far so I want to give them another try.

I couldn't play W2, it annoyed me too much and W3 didn't emotionally click until leaving the initial warzone, after that I was totally sold, and I am a very, very hard sell on fantasy settings.

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7 hours ago, (XB1)MandlorPrime said:

Red Dead 2 for me. The Witcher series was cool. But God damn is this game gorgeous, and there is just so much to do. Been enjoying it for the better part of a year now. Love this game. 

On my list of games to play! Glad they brought it to pc.

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