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(XB1)GearsMatrix301

I have to know. Why are so many people defending the CO nerf like it’s the greatest thing ever?

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Just...why?

We have loads of evidence proving that it’s not worth using over PPP, yet here we all still are bickering about it.

Edited by (XB1)GearsMatrix301
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Prob due to people not happy with power being taken away from them,as the game has been based on power for a while too as well,and melee in general has lost a bit of power since the rework,i can see DE trying to move away from power and actually starting to balance the game,a lot may hate it,but it is better for the future of the game,and being able to rework enemy scaling too to a more reasonable level without weapons being too powerful. But tbh damage balancing and enemy scaling should be reworked at the same time and not separately,as if done separately,there will be a time gap where we are either too powerful or too weak depending on what order they have chosen if done separately.

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I haven't been knees-deep in the arguments, but all I can say are two things:

1. I'm still killing stuff with it just fine. Just had to tune my builds a bit.

2. My Redeemer Prime with the old CO worked even in Elemental Enhancement Sortie 3. That was the second moment I knew it was going to get nerfed eventually.

Edited by KnossosTNC
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Players are pissed because Condition Overload was introduced 3 years ago and they could have nerfed it a week or month later but they didn't.

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There's loads of evidence proving that they're both worth using is different situations.

If enemies die in one hit, use PPP. If enemies die in more then one hit (and you can reliably proc status) use CO.

Alternatively, most starchart trash mobs will die in one hit even if you left the slot blank, so I don't even worry about it and slot CO.

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23 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Just...why?

We have loads of evidence proving that it’s not worth using over PPP, yet here we all still are bickering about it.

Wut? People are mostly talking about dropping PPP from their builds, not CO.

 

The fact that is has been nerfed but is still pretty much mandatory says everything.

Edited by schilds
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25 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

We have loads of evidence proving that it’s not worth using over PPP

what evidence? it's just better unless you never actually hit an Enemy.
the one that you might not use at times, is Pressure Point.

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I still use ppp+Co on my polearm zaw, but that is a pure crit one with not much status...maybe should replace ppp with weeping wounds, but idk

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33 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Just...why?

We have loads of evidence proving that it’s not worth using over PPP, yet here we all still are bickering about it.

I personally prefer +360% Bonus Damage with 3 Procs than +360% damage with 6 procs, my enemies dont live long enough for me to stack over 2~3 stats on them anyways.

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4 minutes ago, DarthIronclad said:

I still use ppp+Co on my polearm zaw, but that is a pure crit one with not much status...maybe should replace ppp with weeping wounds, but idk

With the new and improved WW, you only need 18% base status to reach 100% at 12x combo (or you can atleast get to 81% with 14% base).

Edited by rapt0rman

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8 minutes ago, DarthIronclad said:

I still use ppp+Co on my polearm zaw, but that is a pure crit one with not much status...maybe should replace ppp with weeping wounds, but idk

or ASPD

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Can anyone explain to me why PPP is dropped? I mean its literally a pure dmg increase?

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1 minute ago, SerphV said:

Can anyone explain to me why PPP is dropped? I mean its literally a pure dmg increase?

 

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

It'll be an increase of the same amount every time, it's just that that increase percentage wise isn't that high with both on.

If you have a weapon with say, 100 damage. On build one you have Pressure Point and Condition Overload, on build two you have just Condition Overload.

#1: 

0 stacks = 220 damage.

1 stack = 340 damage, increase of ~55% damage.

2 stacks = 460 damage, increase of ~35% damage over previous, total increase of 109%.

3 stacks = 580 damage, increase of 26% damage over previous, total increase of ~164%.

#2:

0 stacks = 100 normal damage.

1 stack = 220 damage, increase of 120% damage.

2 stacks = 340 damage, increase of ~55% damage, total increase of 240% damage.

3 stacks = 460 damage, increase of ~35% damage, total increase of 360% damage.

Mathematically each stack with just Condition Overload is worth a larger increase in damage, comparatively, so when you're looking at "best in slot" Pressure Point can be substituted for something that multiplies off of Condition Overload, such as an elemental mod or crit.

Take build #2 for example, slap on a 90% elemental in the free mod slot not taken up by Pressure Point. At no stacks you're only 30 damage behind build one, at one stack you're at 418 damage whilst build 1 is at 340, 78 damage ahead. That lead grows with every stack.

Now, fair warning, I'm hella tired and half drunk, so everything I typed might be the ravings of a madman... but it makes sense to me.

(I used Pressure Point instead of the Primed version because... it was easier.)

 

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I don't know about anyone else but I think it's good that DE have got people thinking about not using a 'mandatory' damage mod.  It's also good that some people are still thinking it's best for their playstyle to stick with PPP.  It's a balanced choice with pros and cons to each, we have an option.

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I'd say part of it, in addition to the melee changes overall, is that there are people who've either wanted the game to finally receive some sort of balancing and/or has grown tired of the melee meta and how many melee weapons felt bad to use before. And even if a meta will always exist right now the system feels far more open with way more viable options than we had previously. And even if the damage ceiling of melee overall was pulled down far more weapons can actually reach said ceiling instead of things like the Redeemer, Atterax, or Zaws feeling/being mandatory.

Also for the whole PPP vs CO debate (for whatever reason that's still going on) CO does provide far more damage but is worse off against status immune enemies, enemies that would have been one-shot off of PPP instead, and on weapons/builds with low enough status chance to make the damage output inconsistent. And as for how often one will encounter the situations that PPP is better depends on the type of content someone plays regularly.

Personally I've switched to PPP over CO for Lich hunting solely because Liches are status immune and the performance on the lv120~ enemies in said missions isn't too different.

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9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

 

 

but saying that... isnt with PPP the overall dmg is still higher?

3 stacks = 580 damage VS 460 damage

rate of increase is more but overall numbers with PPP is still higher isnt it?

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5 minutes ago, SerphV said:

but saying that... isnt with PPP the overall dmg is still higher?

3 stacks = 580 damage VS 460 damage

rate of increase is more but overall numbers with PPP is still higher isnt it?

Yes, but with the diminishing returns from base damage being additive, combined with the limited number of mod slots, there are ways to get a much higher damage increases then stacking more than one base damage mod (instead using mods that stack multiplicatively with base damage).

Edited by rapt0rman
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now crit and status build are trash all is bloodrush got a massive nerf  165% to 60% and Condition Overload cap at 3 status the problem is the cap in the combo counter of 12 x220 now hybrids are death in melee now solo farming long runs are death 😱

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2 minutes ago, SerphV said:

but saying that... isnt with PPP the overall dmg is still higher?

3 stacks = 580 damage VS 460 damage

rate of increase is more but overall numbers with PPP is still higher isnt it?

I'm not really in the mood to requote a quote, the answer is in there.

Remember, you're limited on the number of slots you can have, if you choose to use pressure point for essentially one free CO stack, you can't equip something that builds off of CO.

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10 minutes ago, trst said:

I'd say part of it, in addition to the melee changes overall, is that there are people who've either wanted the game to finally receive some sort of balancing

Now here’s the problem with that. We were explicitly told on a devstream that this would be an overall buff to melee. But we’ve lost CO (ITS NOT BETTER THAN PPP FFS PEOPLE!), we lost the combo multiplier, Blood rush was nerfed, We lost Damage multipliers from stances, we lost viable use of Status weapons, Iron Staff is back to being garbage.

We were told it to be a buff, but all I’m seeing here are nerfs and the reduction of build choice.

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hace 6 minutos, SerphV dijo:

but saying that... isnt with PPP the overall dmg is still higher?

3 stacks = 580 damage VS 460 damage

rate of increase is more but overall numbers with PPP is still higher isnt it?

nope 

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24 minutes ago, SerphV said:

Can anyone explain to me why PPP is dropped? I mean its literally a pure dmg increase?

Here's an explanation by analogy with geometry (where mods = perimeter and damage = area): https://www.byrdseed.com/explore-geometry-area-and-perimeter/

 

The formula for damage looks roughly like this:

Total damage = (1 + PPP + CO + any other dmg mod) x (1 + Element1 + Element2 + ...) x (crit stuff) x (some other dmg type if it exists) x ...

 

So bonuses of the same type add together, and then are multiplied with bonuses of different types. One way of looking at it is that the more you stack of one bonus, the more you get out of adding to the other bonuses.

For example, let's just go with two damage types:

raw dmg x elemental dmg

Say you already have some mods equipped, mostly stacking raw dmg and your formula looks like this with values subbed in:

5 x 2 = 10 (5 raw and 2 elemental)

Now you add a new mod, let's just say it's equivalent to +1 to any of the numbers, you could have

6 x 2 = 12 (+1 to raw) OR

5 x 3 = 15 (+1 to elemental)

If you add another +1 (another new mod, so +2 in total), you could distribute them as:

7 x 2 = 14 (adding all to raw) OR

6 x 3 = 18 (adding +1 to each type) OR

5 x 4 = 20 (adding all to elemental)

 

Highest results are in bold, and as you can see, each mod we add, we're getting more out of adding to the smaller number.

Edited by schilds
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Personally I think they should cap it at 3 (like they said they were going to) and make it a final multiplier again, just without it stacking on itself. Then there is no competition between CO and PPP, and the competition is between CO and Crit (like it was before 3.0). That way we are back to status vs crit, and build diversity can return, instead of crit damage being the only final damage multiplier we can apply (except for Smite mods, but those are a whole other topic).

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1 minute ago, rapt0rman said:

Yes, but with the diminishing returns from base damage being additive, combined with the limited number of mod slots, there are ways to get a much higher damage increases then stacking more than one base damage mod (using mods that stack multiplicatively with base damage).

Hmmm I kinda get what you mean...

Apologies I usually get play time only to play... I kinda dun go into all these details... but CO only maximum 3 stacks? So it will seems rare where we will get CO higher than CO+PPP?

I think I have to go Google somemore...

So confusing..

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3 minutes ago, SerphV said:

but saying that... isnt with PPP the overall dmg is still higher?

3 stacks = 580 damage VS 460 damage

rate of increase is more but overall numbers with PPP is still higher isnt it?

But the weapon dealing 460 damage has an empty mod slot (since those numbers are comparing PP+CO vs CO alone).  If you use that extra mod slot for damage that multiplies such as an elemental or crit mod then it will be higher.  For example, lets assume you've got 2 +90% elementals on the build too, that 580 will be 1624 including the elementals but you can fit a third +90 on if you drop PP and the CO only weapon will be doing 460 +270% = 1702.

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