I have to know. Why are so many people defending the CO nerf like it’s the greatest thing ever?

[ranks21]

almost every melee in  m 2.0 was a hybrid build, now it's more a mandatory style in m 3.0 because status is now more powerful than straight damage << this math is so wrong >> I don't even know where to begin.

you want a weapon to hit, smash,and cut as hard and as fast as possible, secondary features like status effects (shock trauma in real life) should never be more lethal than the weapon that produces that effect after the initial blow. sometimes you have to pause to wonder  wth some ppl are smoking.

[CryberBlade]

Justo ahora, SerphV dijo:

Hmmm I kinda get what you mean...

Apologies I usually get play time only to play... I kinda dun go into all these details... but CO only maximum 3 stacks? So it will seems rare where we will get CO higher than CO+PPP?

I think I have to go Google somemore...

So confusing..

yeah 3 stacks at max 

[rapt0rman]

2 minutes ago, SerphV said:

Hmmm I kinda get what you mean...

Apologies I usually get play time only to play... I kinda dun go into all these details... but CO only maximum 3 stacks? So it will seems rare where we will get CO higher than CO+PPP?

I think I have to go Google somemore...

So confusing..

& @CryberBlade

Nope, CO doesn't cap at three, DE had considered it, but the update dropped without that change.

Edited November 11, 2019 by rapt0rman

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

47 minutes ago, Mikaer88 said:

Players are pissed because Condition Overload was introduced 3 years ago and they could have nerfed it a week or month later but they didn't.

This. I'm pissed because a) they waited 3 years and then decided it was a mistake. I'm sorry but that's bullcrap. b) I'm not psyched that it not only got nerfed but got dumpstered. And no it, isnt close to what it was. Period. There should be a middle ground between what it is now and what it was.

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Just...why?

We have loads of evidence proving that it’s not worth using over PPP, yet here we all still are bickering about it.

Or at the very least using both is now questionable and no matter what you do it's a shadow of its former self.

[trst]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Now here’s the problem with that. We were explicitly told on a devstream that this would be an overall buff to melee. But we’ve lost CO (ITS NOT BETTER THAN PPP FFS PEOPLE!), we lost the combo multiplier, Blood rush was nerfed, We lost Damage multipliers from stances, we lost viable use of Status weapons, Iron Staff is back to being garbage.

We were told it to be a buff, but all I’m seeing here are nerfs and the reduction of build choice.

Well yeah I don't think wording it strictly as a buff was wise as it would have always been a nerf to the weapons and builds that made best use of BL and CO. But at the same time it did buff pretty much every other weapon.

Which I'd say is worth considering as the memestrike+BL or min-maxed CO builds weren't enough to make most weapons viable into higher leveled content. Or at least their performance was far below that of the top 1% of weapons and were just barely viable outside of endurance runs. Where now it seems hard to find a bad melee weapon, Hek even dual daggers all seem viable now.

[CryberBlade]

hace 9 minutos, trst dijo:

Well yeah I don't think wording it strictly as a buff was wise as it would have always been a nerf to the weapons and builds that made best use of BL and CO. But at the same time it did buff pretty much every other weapon.

Which I'd say is worth considering as the memestrike+BL or min-maxed CO builds weren't enough to make most weapons viable into higher leveled content. Or at least their performance was far below that of the top 1% of weapons and were just barely viable outside of endurance runs. Where now it seems hard to find a bad melee weapon, Hek even dual daggers all seem viable now.

sure but warframe is a horde game not a 1 vs 1  try to kill in disruption a demolys lv 130+ with daggers  

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Mikaer88 said:

Players are pissed because Condition Overload was introduced 3 years ago and they could have nerfed it a week or month later but they didn't.

Not like this has happened before:

Cough cough Chroma damage and armor calculations, Maiming Strike, Blood Rush, Airborne damage reduction cough cough

Personally, I completely understand when a mechanical balance takes a while to address. Old Mesa, Greedy Mag, Draco, etc. Those things require you to watch people use (and abuse) the game to see the problem.

However, mathematical unbalance should just be straight forward. If I am exponentially increasing my final damage, it's pretty simple to understand that my damage is going to become absolutely disgusting after a few status procs. Whether this is intentional or not, leaving it in the game for years is just horrific and more time that passes, the more players invested into it. DE was completely aware of how the mod works and they did nothing about it for far too long. Wolf of Saturn Six and Kuva Liches are the latest examples of status immune entities added to the game.

OP: I would not say Condition Overload is worse than Pressure Point by any means. It is still mandatory. It did receive a nerf, but said nerf only really shows after around level 80 or Sortie level which is a very small minority of the game. The majority of players will not be bothered by this change, only endurance players and those seeking big numbers will.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Voltage

[WindigoTG]

I have to know. Why are so many people flipping out over CO nerf like the sky is falling?

With melee stats being buffed across the board, the end damage is as good as ever.

I haven't even looked at my builds after the update, they all work just as well as they did before, if not better. If anything, I feel like everything is melting even faster now.

MS is the only thing that was knocked down to irrelevancy.

Edited November 14, 2019 by WindigoTG

[Test-995]

26 minutes ago, trst said:

Well yeah I don't think wording it strictly as a buff was wise as it would have always been a nerf to the weapons and builds that made best use of BL and CO. But at the same time it did buff pretty much every other weapon.

Which I'd say is worth considering as the memestrike+BL or min-maxed CO builds weren't enough to make most weapons viable into higher leveled content. Or at least their performance was far below that of the top 1% of weapons and were just barely viable outside of endurance runs. Where now it seems hard to find a bad melee weapon, Hek even dual daggers all seem viable now.

Nah, they buffed stance and "fixed" stats of some weapons (fang prime, reaper prime and those kind of things), but damage is almost always less.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Voltage said:

However, mathematical unbalance should just be straight forward. If I am exponentially increasing my final damage, it's pretty simple to understand that my damage is going to become absolutely disgusting after a few status procs. Whether this is intentional or not, leaving it in the game for years is just horrific and more time that passes, the more players invested into it. DE was completely aware of how the mod works and they did nothing about it for far too long. Wolf of Saturn Six and Kuva Liches are the latest examples of status immune entities added to the game.

Were I to hazard a guess I think DE tried to make the design fit into that mathematical outlier initially, but at the time didn't realize the absolute depth of the power gap that had arisen.

Thinking about how things were designed and how initial problems with say Fortuna enemies being too strong on launch and being nerfed (something people complain about to this day) I think was the beginning of DE realizing that they COULDN'T balance for that level of power. Every bit of content they released for the past how many years has had the same complaint of "Warframe is too easy" and every time that they'd try something harder it would be painfully easy for the people at the top of the power curve and nigh-impossible for people from the middle down.

I believe the state of imbalance, at least from my own personal analysis, stems from DE wrongly assuming that they could accommodate for the ceiling they had unintentionally created, and Steve's "Ripping off the band-aid" quote likely stems from the internal realization that they could never match that ceiling and were being crushed in terms of design by it.

Though that could just be a crazy theory of mine, like my other theory that they are using the Grendel missions to measure the isolated power of weapons and Warframes separated from mods in order to see what is over or under-performing.

[Voltage]

15 minutes ago, WindigoTG said:

I have to know. Why are so many people flipping out over CO nerf like the sky is falling?

With melee stats beting buffed across the board, the end damage is as good as ever.

 

20 minutes ago, Voltage said:

It did receive a nerf, but said nerf only really shows after around level 80 or Sortie level which is a very small minority of the game. The majority of players will not be bothered by this change, only endurance players and those seeking big numbers will.

The overall changes to melee are a net positive for the 99% of people. The 1% are the ones who will see enjoyment being turned down. Catering to the majority is just how it goes, so most of the issues with these changes come from the minority who enjoyed the power they delivered for years because it was comfortable, accepted, and fun for them.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

5 minutes ago, Voltage said:

 

The overall changes to melee are a net positive for the 99% of people. The 1% are the ones who will see enjoyment being turned down. Catering to the majority is just how it goes, so most of the issues with these changes come from the minority who enjoyed the power they delivered for years because it was comfortable, accepted, and fun for them

This

[Shinigami_Greed]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)SixGunLove said:

This

Quoted for truth.

[nslay]

I was playing with War in Simulacrum a bit today. I don't claim to be an expert with the new system at all! Anyway, I know War is a horrid Impact melee, but it's so cool! Long story short, I found that CO did more damage than PPP when experimenting with level 135 Corrupted Heavy Gunners and Corrupted Bombards (not paused!). In order to use CO, though, I had slot Weeping Wounds and Rending Strike (yuck!) for it to be consistent (Rending Strike gives IPS each about ~33% chance to proc on War). I guess with PPP, I could fit something like Gladiator Might to make up for it.

Personally, I don't like having to hit enemies a lot to build combo and get the status procs up for CO. But once combo is built, red numbers and status procs are pretty common! If you're a Naramon user, this works great!

Anyway, here's what I found worked best at clearing a groups of 6 Corrupted Heavy Gunners and 6 Corrupted Bombards fast with lots of red numbers (though not as fast as the Venka Prime video I saw somewhere else on the forum!).

http://warframe-builder.com/s/f05b072dc1364981

This only works well with large groups of enemies. War has an enormous range (longest melee range in the game!) and it's trivial to get your combo up to 12x for a group of just 6 enemies within War's long reach!

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

46 minutes ago, Voltage said:

 

The overall changes to melee are a net positive for the 99% of people. The 1% are the ones who will see enjoyment being turned down. Catering to the majority is just how it goes, so most of the issues with these changes come from the minority who enjoyed the power they delivered for years because it was comfortable, accepted, and fun for them.

Except this isn’t an issue of majority vs minority. It’s newer players vs older players. People who have maximum damage output vs people that don’t. The people that don’t love the new changes because they don’t know that there is a loss in damage. The players who have definitely noticed a decrease in their melee damage output.

[schilds]

27 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s newer players vs older players

No it's not. Old players have lived through many changes in meta and have learned to be adaptable.

Edited November 11, 2019 by schilds

[No1NParticular31]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Now here’s the problem with that. We were explicitly told on a devstream that this would be an overall buff to melee. But we’ve lost CO (ITS NOT BETTER THAN PPP FFS PEOPLE!), we lost the combo multiplier, Blood rush was nerfed, We lost Damage multipliers from stances, we lost viable use of Status weapons, Iron Staff is back to being garbage.

We were told it to be a buff, but all I’m seeing here are nerfs and the reduction of build choice.

Here is the problem and the reason why some people are happy with the changes.

Most of the people that are upset are looking at the math using some 100 base damage weapon and checking what CO did before and then comparing it to what CO would do to the same 100 base damage weapon now. The flaw in that thinking is that they buffed the base damage of most weapons so that 100 base damage weapon is no longer a 100 base damage weapon. Take the Lesion for example (since it was a 100 base damage weapon that was typically used as a top tier weapon with CO) that 100 base damage is now a 237.1 base damage. So right off the bat you are already getting a 237% modifier and since that is base is affected by all multipliers. In addition the Crit chance was tippled from 5% to 15% and the status chance was increased from 30% to 37% which means you can hit 100% status with only THREE 60/60 mods instead of the previously required four 60/60 mods so you can something better. For me that means instead of running four 60/60 mods as Corrosive and Blast, I can now run Corrosive as two 60/60 mods PLUS Primed Fever Strike (for an asinine amount of corrosive) AND Heat for even more armor stripping. It also feels like they increased the haste portion of the proc on the Lesion because it now swings crazy fast without needing to use Primed Fury or Berserker.

The bottom line is that YES CO was nerfed but if people are going to compare pre-nerf CO to post-nerf CO, they cannot do it correctly using only pre-nerf base weapon damage. They MUST make any comparisons using the correct base damage respectively. Otherwise they just being disingenuous by making the nerf seem worse than it really is.

NOTE for clarity: I am not saying that you specifically are making incorrect comparisons, I am just stating that some people are and many others are getting more upset than they should be based on this false information.

[HellMel]

Everybody complaining about the Nerf to CO and Meme strike are saying that it should have been changed long ago.

 

Those same people were the ones rioting at the prospect of them fixing it when they were new. 

 

Both needed fixed. They had their say in the sun being super OP, and it was fun. But leaving them broken makes no sense when doing a massive melee balance pass. This was the correct time to make the change, and both mods are still strong for what they are.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

(though not as fast as the Venka Prime video I saw somewhere else on the forum!).

The Venka Prime has been an unfairly underrated weapon for awhile now in my honest opinion.  It's just nice to see some others realize this as well. 

[No1NParticular31]

Let me add some math to my previous post as a demonstration. All of the numbers below are based on the Lesion and my builds. Red numbers are total final damage numbers.

PRE NERF - These were the numbers before the nerf
Base damage total:    100                        
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                        
Elemental Multiplier    2.4    (four 60/60 mods)                    
Total Base damage    901                        
CO Multiplier       0           1              2             3              4             5                   6
Total Damage    901    ‭1,441.6‬    ‭2,306.6‬    ‭3,690.5    ‭5,904.8    ‬‭9,447.7    15,116.3
                            

                            
CLAIMED POST NERF - This is the math people are using to demonstrate how bad they think the nerf is.                     
Base damage total:    100 <- This number is WRONG because they buffed the base damage.
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                    
                            
CO Multiplier    0        1        2        3        4        5       6
                      265    365    465    565    665    765    865
                            
Elemental Multiplier    2.4  <- This number is WRONG because they buffed status allowing better mods.                 
Total damage    636    876    1116    1356    1596    1836    2076
                            
                            
ACTUAL POST NERF - This is the reality of the post nerf numbers              
Base damage total:    237.1  <- This is the CORRECT post buff damage number.          
Base Dmg (PPP)    1.65                        
                            
CO Multiplier    0          1            2            3              4            5             6
                    628.3    865.4    1102.5    1339.6    1576.7    1813.8    2050.9
                            
Elemental Multiplier    3.45    (three 60/60 mods + Primed Fever Strike)    <- This is the CORRECT post buff elemental multiplier.                
Total damage    2167.7    2985.7    3803.7    4621.7    5439.7    6257.7    7075.7

 

Notice how the damage output is actually BETTER until you reach 4 status effects and even then at the 4th the difference is negligible. At 5 Status effects the difference is noticeable and at 6 status effects the damage is about half of what it was. What this means is that unless you are fighting extremely hard mobs that are going to be alive long enough to stack 5 or 6 full status effects you are actually BETTER off under this new system.

None of the above takes into account that the Crit rate was TRIPPLED on this particular weapon or that the swing speed also seems to have increased. It also doesn't take into account that slash procs should be doing more damage due to the increased base damage. These factors should help to close the gap to some degree at the higher levels.

Edited November 11, 2019 by No1NParticular31

[schilds]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

The Venka Prime has been an unfairly underrated weapon for awhile now in my honest opinion.  It's just nice to see some others realize this as well. 

Biggest problem with the previous meta was how narrow player choices ended up.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

25 minutes ago, HellMel said:

Everybody complaining about the Nerf to CO and Meme strike are saying that it should have been changed long ago

Idgaff about Maiming Strike. And I recall absolutely zero discussion ever about CO needing to be changed.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

9 minutes ago, schilds said:

Biggest problem with the previous meta was how narrow player choices ended up.

Ironic, because the CO nerfs have made the melee meta extremely restrictive again.

[schilds]

Actually, the the biggest effect on the meta has been the change to range. Nothing to do with CO or BR, really. That's why we see people using a larger variety of weapons. 

11 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ironic, because the CO nerfs have made the melee meta extremely restrictive again.

I assume you can tell us what that new, restricted meta is then.

Edited November 11, 2019 by schilds

[Sahansral]

The gap has become a bit smaller and we have more viable melee weapons due to range changes but melee still overshadows using primaries/secondaries by a huge margin.