I have to know. Why are so many people defending the CO nerf like it’s the greatest thing ever?

[No1NParticular31]

5 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

The difference is that before, CO was a final damage multiplier (multiplied your modded base damage), now it's just base damage.

On a fully modded weapon 4.1x final damage is stronger than 4.6x base damage.

I am not sure what that chart is. What is "Live Damage Multiplier"? What is "Dev Damage Multiplier? How is this related to CO?
Is the left Column pre-nerf and the right column post-nerf? If so that seems to roughly agree with my big post back on page two that at 4x the damage for old method is slight above but becomes noticeable at 5x.

[No1NParticular31]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s actually lower do due the fact that the way it’s calculated is completely different. It’s now additive instead of multiplicative.  

Please go look at the chart I provided on page 2 of this thread. Calculated as additive with the base increases, it starts off higher. Even the chart just posted by rapt0rman (if I am reading it right agrees.

Edited November 11, 2019 by No1NParticular31

[rapt0rman]

3 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

I am not sure what that chart is. What is "Live Damage Multiplier"? What is "Dev Damage Multiplier? How is this related to CO?
Is the left Column pre-nerf and the right column post-nerf? If so that seems to roughly agree with my big post back on page two that at 4x the damage for old method is slight above but becomes noticeable at 5x.

It's from the U26 update notes:

On 2019-10-31 at 1:07 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Condition Overload - Now uses a stacking multiplier based on how many Status Effects are on the target at 120% damage per Status.

• During this whole Melee rebalance, Condition Overload remained a persistent outlier. Since launch, it has had an unintended stacking mechanic, that nothing else uses in the game: it grew exponentially, making it too volatile to balance. We know there’s nothing worse than ‘how can you call this unintended’, so let’s explain the history: initially it did the stacking on final damage, which, as you know from previous changes, we have been trying to move away from. This is because this type of stacking makes for very hard to control damage progression, and tends to be very confusing as to which damage, Melee/Proc etc, applies where. This new version of the mod makes Condition Overload’s damage multiplication become equal to Pressure Point when the enemy has 1 Status applied, better than Primed Pressure Point at 2 Statuses applied, and from there it just grows and grows. Even though the maximum potential damage is lower now, we think it is still an extremely powerful Mod in its latest iteration.
• The new ‘Lifted’ Status also counts for Condition Overload calculation. Revised Stances and the new Heavy Attack give reliable ways of applying Status to enemies, which greatly increases the reliability of Condition Overload
•   Hide contents

   

CO's issues were two-fold, it was a final damage multiplier that also multiplied itself, they changed both aspects. It's now additive with base damage and itself.

Edited November 11, 2019 by rapt0rman

[-Kittens-]

Back in my day mods used to work together synergistically in the snow uphill both ways and we liked it that way.

[No1NParticular31]

3 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

Back in my day mods used to work together synergistically in the snow uphill both ways and we liked it that way.

We're not talking about back when you had to ride your dinosaur to the Stop and Go, to get a pack of smokes. 😁

Edited November 11, 2019 by No1NParticular31

[Rakosta_Kai]

13 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Just...why?

We have loads of evidence proving that it’s not worth using over PPP, yet here we all still are bickering about it.

Well for a few reasons...

1.  Everyone doesn't have PPP and CO is comparatively easier to get.
2.  Some players prefer status
3. The change effectively frees up a mod slot.

Likewise, I would love to see the "loads" of evidence supporting that PPP is just better.

There are too many weapon types and status chances to make such a claim true to begin with but I am sure someone parsed this data for you to make this claim so you should provide it.

[Test-995]

11 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

For the same reason I didn't include Crit Chance, Crit multiplier, Status damage ticks, swing speed, Focus schools, or Frame buffs. Once you start down that rabbit hole you could find a place that makes Wonderland seems like a simple and reasonable place. Yet, ALL of those contribute to the final damage numbers. The goal of my post was not to come up with 100% complete final damage numbers but instead to demonstrate, for THIS SPECIFIC MOD, how everyone Else's "false math" was making things look worse than they were. They didn't include every possible source of additional damage so I didn't either.

Not to mention I am doubtful of your "almost always 3x damage" claim. That is almost impossible to maintain without running either Drifting Contact or Body Count (or focus schools) which usually doesn't fit into a Status build. In a hybrid or Crit build (Bloodrush instead of CO) sure. And now we are back to the first paragraph of this reply.

Maintaining 140ish combo is pretty easy, especially with naramon.

New maximum combo is 220 yet almost no one using combo duration mod, it shouldn't be that different in melee 2.0.

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

14 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Just...why?

We have loads of evidence proving that it’s not worth using over PPP, yet here we all still are bickering about it.

Because people on this forum are dumb as all hell and will defend de's actions even when they are the dumbest most irresponsible actions ever people will still flock to defend them because *nOtIcE mE MeGAn SeMpAi*

[(NSW)DreTheSage]

.....nvm

Edited November 11, 2019 by (NSW)DreTheSage

[rapt0rman]

Just now, (NSW)DreTheSage said:

What's PPP?

Primed Pressure Point.

[(NSW)DreTheSage]

Just now, rapt0rman said:

Primed Pressure Point.

Damn got me before I could ninja edit. I ended up googling. 

[No1NParticular31]

23 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Maintaining 140ish combo is pretty easy, especially with naramon.

New maximum combo is 220 yet almost no one using combo duration mod, it shouldn't be that different in melee 2.0.

And again, if I count Focus schools, someone will complain I didn't factor in crit chances, frame buffs, or something else. I am not trying to replicate the game damage engine in Excel. I would rather be playing the game.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

44 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Well for a few reasons...

1.  Everyone doesn't have PPP and CO is comparatively easier to get.
2.  Some players prefer status
3. The change effectively frees up a mod slot.

Likewise, I would love to see the "loads" of evidence supporting that PPP is just better.

There are too many weapon types and status chances to make such a claim true to begin with but I am sure someone parsed this data for you to make this claim so you should provide it.

A 0.05% drop chance is not easier than just waiting for Baro.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

52 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

It's from the U26 update notes:

CO's issues were two-fold, it was a final damage multiplier that also multiplied itself, they changed both aspects. It's now additive with base damage and itself.

Ok then just don’t have it multiply with itself.

[nslay]

If the enemies that drop CO are relatively common, then killing thousands should be pretty easy and the chance you have CO dropped  by then is pretty high even if every roll is independently 0.05%.

Vengeful Revenant (for example) is comparatively painful to farm as it drops from Conculysts which only spawn in very small numbers (0-4) per mission.

Similar with Tempo Royale and Isolater Bursas.

Edited November 11, 2019 by nslay
Spelling

[No1NParticular31]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

A 0.05% drop chance is not easier than just waiting for Baro.

Except that just because Baro comes doesn't mean he will have that mod. Meanwhile both can be bought from other players for about 50-55 plat each. It would be MUCH easier to farm some Prime Junk sell it and buy the mods IMHO.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

A 0.05% drop chance is not easier than just waiting for Baro.

Yes...Yes, it is.

Because you don't know when Baro will offer it and you can farm for CO whenever given how common the mobs are.

Likewise, you can buy it for plat from another player cheaper with it costing less in credits for the trade and less in endo to rank as well.

There actually isn't any instance where CO isn't easier to acquire than PPP unless...

•  it's a day where Baro is there
• and offering that specific mod
• and you have the ducats on-hand.

 

Truth told, PPP ought to be better than CO without question...But I don't think that it is.

This seems like another instance where you let rhetoric replace reason bud.

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

2 status effects means CO is better than PPP.  That's the short version.  Before when it was multiplicative at the end of damage calc like bane mods it was exponential, leading to absolutely insane numbers once you got multiple status effects.  

PPP is way easier to get then CO.  People in trade chat always have PPP and if you need credits that badly do some profit taker's or index to get the trade tax.  The one thing easier in regards to CO is trade tax and max ranking the mod, as a 0.02% and 0.03% drop chance from drekar butcher and leaping thrasher respectively will likely take you hours upon hours of farming to get even with loot frames, especially since butcher stops spawning altogether after a certain point in the one tileset it is present (uranus.)  But I digress, you can get anything in this game via farming anyways be it CO or PPP.  

I'm fine with CO change, it frees up a mod slot since PPP is now obsolete because of it so you don't have to run both, you can instead fit in another attack speed mod or primed reach on the weapons you never put primed reach on before but now do since it works on everything equally.  

[HellMel]

I don't understand the idea that PPP is strictly better than CO.  It's super easy to apply status effects via warframe abilities with minimal effort (Wisp Motes, saryn cyst things, equinox maim, etc).  It's also very easy to mod out a companion to inflict multiple status.  Even ignoring that second bit, a Wisp with CO is going to be operating at a baseline 120% increase functionally 100% of the time because of free electric procs. The only time PPP is better on these frames (and there are many), would be in the narrow window of  "dudes that die in 1 hit at +165% damage, but not at +120% damage", as on the 2nd hit CO is very likely going to be hitting harder than PPP. And if they die that quickly the entire purpose of CO is lost and I fail to understand the argument anyway.

 

So sure, if you're playing Rhino without a pet of any kind tagging along, PPP is quite a lot better, but CO is still really good in a lot of builds.

Edited November 11, 2019 by HellMel

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Just...why?

We have loads of evidence proving that it’s not worth using over PPP, yet here we all still are bickering about it.

No we dont. We have evidence that it isnt worth using PPP in addition to or over CO.

14 hours ago, SerphV said:

Hmmm I kinda get what you mean...

Apologies I usually get play time only to play... I kinda dun go into all these details... but CO only maximum 3 stacks? So it will seems rare where we will get CO higher than CO+PPP?

I think I have to go Google somemore...

So confusing..

Pointless to stack the two, you are better off adding crit damage at that point.

Currently one of the most devastating setups is a hybrid slash based weapon with CO, BR, WW, PF, PR, OS, GM and a 60/60 heat mod. If you need some utlity you can replace Gladiator's Might for healing return or life strike and on a weapon like Gram Prime that needs more speed you replace it for Beserker. And if you need sustain on your Gram Prime or similarly slow weapon you replace Organ Shatter aswell for HR or LS. Then when you get a riven you can expand your build depending on what it gives. Since I prefer to use healing return on most weapons I'm on the lookout for Attack Speed and Crit Damage rivens so I can replace Primed Fury and get more crit damage out of the build, possibly with a good negative to further push slash procs. Heat+Crit Damage or Reach+Crit damage would also work for me, since I'd be able to ditch the 60/60 mod or my Primed Reach.

[(PSN)Seratronix]

Condition Overloads damage calculation was changed, this is the true nerf, not the base damage added per status procs.

Before CO changes:

Modded damage * 1.6^status count

 

After changes:

Base Damage × [1 + Damage Mods + (Condition Overload Multiplier × n)] × (1 + Elemental Mods)

It's a huge damage difference, no one actually does the research or the math and just looks at face value and creates their own false ideas about changes.

[Traumtulpe]

12 hours ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Base damage total:    100 <- This number is WRONG because they buffed the base damage. [...] Base damage total:    237.1  <- This is the CORRECT post buff damage number.

Gram Prime had it's damage increased by 66%, if we assume a 12x combo multiplier now and a 4x multiplier before the patch the "CORRECT post buff damage number." is 41.5. Gram Prime had no change to it's status chance.

Dealing less than half the damage from one source doesn't typically compensate for doing less damage from other sources. Less times less is not, in fact, more.

Jokes aside, your math is entirely worthless.

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Traumtulpe

[No1NParticular31]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)Seratronix said:

no one actually does the research or the math and just looks at face value and creates their own false ideas about changes.

That is EXACTLY what you did. Looked at face value of the mod changes and ignored the other changes that help compensate for this change, creating false ideas about this change.

Edited November 11, 2019 by No1NParticular31

[No1NParticular31]

13 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Gram Prime had it's damage increased by 66%, if we assume a 12x combo multiplier now and a 4x multiplier before the patch (which conveniently keeps Blood Rush the same regarding base crit chance) the "CORRECT post buff damage number." is 41.5. Gram Prime had no change to it's status chance.

Dealing less than half the damage from one source doesn't typically compensate for doing less damage from other sources. Less times less is not, in fact, more.

Jokes aside, your math is entirely worthless.

 

As I said I only did this for 1 weapon, no I am not going to do this for every weapon in the game. However, the Gram Prime now does 300 base damage not 41.5 so no, 41.5 is NOT the correct Post buff damage number, 300 is.

[nslay]

23 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

As I said I only did this for 1 weapon, no I am not going to do this for every weapon in the game. However, the Gram Prime now does 300 base damage not 41.5 so no, 41.5 is NOT the correct Post buff damage number, 300 is.

I'm not criticizing the math, but after perusing the Heavy Blades on the wiki, I noticed Galatine and Gram Prime's updated stats indicate 0% follow through damage. Does that mean fast multi hit melee combo building is not as feasible with these weapons as slicing through enemies does not follow through to other nearby enemies? Is 12x even a realistic combo for Galatine/Gram Prime? For my War experiments, I could slice up 6-8 clumped up guys and get 12x in a matter of seconds owing to multi hit. But hitting just one guy? Painfully slow!

I will play with Gram Prime tonight. Looks like Paracesis > Gram Prime since it has 60% follow through.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Gram_Prime