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Melee is now broken in Conclave + feedback


-Gwanox
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5 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

You bring up a good point, is it worth having some extremely overpowered weapons and tactics if it gains popularity for the game-mode as a whole?

I would say: tactics, maybe. Specific weapons, no. Primarily because Warframe has a problem in weapon acquisition. I believe, while I don't play CoD, the noob tube is available to pretty much anyone. The broken weapons mentioned in this thread, on the other hand, are things like many days of grinding a Syndicate or being lucky to trade for a big-arse hammer that was event exclusive. That's why I mention standardizing it. For example: if dual swords IK on slide attacks, let everything do it, or at least have a level of power approaching that based on their attack speeds. That way, even the new player has a chance of pulling it off and getting a kill.

And yes, that would mean the new player may get a lucky kill once in a while. Yes, that kind of sucks when you're on the other end. But that luck gives them progress and a means of recourse in a system that can't substantiate effective matchmaking. As it was pre-U26, while everything is nicely balanced, if you're stuck on a 1v1 (not uncommon) and the other player outclasses you, that's it. There's no real recourse, there's no lucky shots, there's no war of attrition. They grab energy orbs so you can't, they heal after every encounter, they kill you over and over again, and that's about all that occurs. Yes, eventually one learns and improves, but nobody is going to make any substantial headway in the course of one or even a few matches. Which means getting bodied a lot and exclusively. Ironically, that's what Kontrollo mentions above.

I should also mention that it isn't like the updated melee system, if we were to work with it, would be the only change. For example: blocking makes players much more durable. Assuming we have to work with it, and besides the fact we probably need different hit sounds so players aren't shooting and having comparatively little indication for why the target isn't dying (dark grey numbers on a dark grey background aren't the most readable things in the world, coughcough), it might be worth looking into lowering the health of players or increasing the damage of guns so that they become more vulnerable to flank attacks to balance out that frontal durability. That itself would mean a lower TTK and would likely have to come with vastly decreased respawn timers, but maybe those aren't necessarily bad changes.

At this point, I realize I'm probably talking less within the condition that Conclave is more popular post-melee rework (anecdotes say it isn't) and more about how we might work with U26, more popular or not. I'm not sure if that is all that fruitful, but given DE has to make some efforts to fix things one way or another, I'm just pondering whether working with U26 instead of reverting it might be better. I don't know. So, I guess, take all that for whatever it might be worth.

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2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

For example: if dual swords IK on slide attacks, let everything do it, or at least have a level of power approaching that based on their attack speeds. That way, even the new player has a chance of pulling it off and getting a kill.

I wanna play Warframe, not Beyblades... 

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7 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

No it isn't worth it.

Ideally, PvP should be all about balance, so the gear you bring gives you options and enables interesting playstyles, but does not decide the outcome of a match beforehand.

Short-term it may attract some people because they want to try out the latest bullsh*t, but don't fool yourself into thinking that helps the mode in the long run. Especially if those weapons and tactics aren't available to new players trying said mode for the first time. Nothing is as demotivating as getting stomped without any sort of recourse where it's clear the other party has the upper hand just because they spent more time/money in the game.

You're probably right. And as you said, it does go against the ethos that we all like about conclave - that it's very skill-based (or was, before U26.) In any case, the point is moot because U26 has not increased the conclave population, so it appears that the method does not work for the purpose anyway. 

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6 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I would say: tactics, maybe. Specific weapons, no. Primarily because Warframe has a problem in weapon acquisition. I believe, while I don't play CoD, the noob tube is available to pretty much anyone. The broken weapons mentioned in this thread, on the other hand, are things like many days of grinding a Syndicate or being lucky to trade for a big-arse hammer that was event exclusive. That's why I mention standardizing it. For example: if dual swords IK on slide attacks, let everything do it, or at least have a level of power approaching that based on their attack speeds. That way, even the new player has a chance of pulling it off and getting a kill.

And yes, that would mean the new player may get a lucky kill once in a while. Yes, that kind of sucks when you're on the other end. But that luck gives them progress and a means of recourse in a system that can't substantiate effective matchmaking. As it was pre-U26, while everything is nicely balanced, if you're stuck on a 1v1 (not uncommon) and the other player outclasses you, that's it. There's no real recourse, there's no lucky shots, there's no war of attrition. They grab energy orbs so you can't, they heal after every encounter, they kill you over and over again, and that's about all that occurs. Yes, eventually one learns and improves, but nobody is going to make any substantial headway in the course of one or even a few matches. Which means getting bodied a lot and exclusively. Ironically, that's what Kontrollo mentions above.

I should also mention that it isn't like the updated melee system, if we were to work with it, would be the only change. For example: blocking makes players much more durable. Assuming we have to work with it, and besides the fact we probably need different hit sounds so players aren't shooting and having comparatively little indication for why the target isn't dying (dark grey numbers on a dark grey background aren't the most readable things in the world, coughcough), it might be worth looking into lowering the health of players or increasing the damage of guns so that they become more vulnerable to flank attacks to balance out that frontal durability. That itself would mean a lower TTK and would likely have to come with vastly decreased respawn timers, but maybe those aren't necessarily bad changes.

At this point, I realize I'm probably talking less within the condition that Conclave is more popular post-melee rework (anecdotes say it isn't) and more about how we might work with U26, more popular or not. I'm not sure if that is all that fruitful, but given DE has to make some efforts to fix things one way or another, I'm just pondering whether working with U26 instead of reverting it might be better. I don't know. So, I guess, take all that for whatever it might be worth.

Yeah, I've long considered the point you made here that new players have effectively no chance against a seasoned conclaver. In other games, lucky kills are a thing, and the deciding factor in most combat engagements is just who sees who first. I thought that maybe this low skill floor and high skill ceiling was the reason for conclave's unpopularity, but honestly I'm pretty convinced now that people don't play it because the developers don't work on it. PvE updates bleed over into conclave very often, causing huge imbalance, and it takes months (if not years) for things to get fixed or reverted. This timescale is long enough for the majority of players to either quit warframe altogether or to at least give up on the conclave. If the imbalance problems were ~ 1 week long and then got fixed, I'm sure that we wouldn't have the unpopularity situation we have now. 

Buffing ranged weapons to compete with melee is a possible solution. However, due to the blocking and high mobility of melee stances, we would probably need auto aim to make it as viable. I would rather not go there!

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33 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

people don't play it because the developers don't work on it.

This is, without doubt, at least part of it. I mean, we could probably chalk up all of Conclave's problems to this at their roots. People still often enter Conclave with just a melee because it's not looked at. There's still new players having no chance against veterans because it's not looked at. <Insert problem here> because it's not looked at. There have been a number of discussions and suggestions on the easiest change that could be made to help boost Conclave's popularity and start inverting the cycle (the one of "it's not addressed because it's not popular; it's not popular because it's never addressed").

But guess what?

It's not looked at.

36 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Buffing ranged weapons to compete with melee is a possible solution. However, due to the blocking and high mobility of melee stances, we would probably need auto aim to make it as viable. I would rather not go there!

Likewise. But we do have auto weapons that, depending on the amount of the buff they receive, could fill that niche with just natural spread and a touch of luck.

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On 2019-11-27 at 1:14 PM, Tyreaus said:

This is, without doubt, at least part of it. I mean, we could probably chalk up all of Conclave's problems to this at their roots. People still often enter Conclave with just a melee because it's not looked at. There's still new players having no chance against veterans because it's not looked at. <Insert problem here> because it's not looked at. There have been a number of discussions and suggestions on the easiest change that could be made to help boost Conclave's popularity and start inverting the cycle (the one of "it's not addressed because it's not popular; it's not popular because it's never addressed").

But guess what?

It's not looked at.

Likewise. But we do have auto weapons that, depending on the amount of the buff they receive, could fill that niche with just natural spread and a touch of luck.

We shouldn't need auto aim, or ranged weapon buffs, or a touch of luck, to be able to kill people using melee... Melee just shouldn't be that overpowered. 

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Just now, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

oh man this is ironic.

Not really. Even the boltace was not as bad as you think before old blood. Just a skill gap..

Its 100% broken now. If it hits atlas he just lays there forever. Knowing de it will take a year before the fix anything. 

Before the update i was like the only person with wolf sledge and boltace. Now its the meta and one shot slide dule melee. 

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On 2019-11-17 at 4:28 PM, Zrakamir said:

Yes Warframe is great but conclave is not fun and thats makes me sad, would love this game but conclave is the worst pvp that i ever play on an shooter ..

Instead the conclave can be one of the funny PVp in history but stupid broken mechanics ruined it. it's useless to play against an ignis or one shot spin and slam attacks. For example a glaive+navigator it's a risky move and  it can't kill anything while spamming maiming spin attacks or slam attacks kill everything. The ignis is still broken, it's not hard to understand that but i don't have any idea why DE don't remove them.

It's not so hard to watch their stats and see they are pretty broken. Just remove them is you are not able to proper balance a game.

A stupid dual kama or boltos spin attack can one shot even a valkir, now add that  some "strong" players even use macros and you can just quit..

Edited by bibmobello
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