Kuva Lich problem: Players sabotaging other players

[Navarc]

TLDR: Players who go into public Kuva Lich missions and ignore Kuva Liches are sabotaging the rest of the squads progress, it needs to be addressed & a mechanic needs to be put in place to hinder it.

So one of the biggest issues with Kuva Liches right now is that in public, there's a lot of players who don't understand that it's always beneficial to themselves to click X on their lich. These players are often not old enough to read if you try to explain to them how it works & that it's a good thing or they're extremely hostile, begin swearing & name-calling because you asked them "please X on your lich".
I don't believe these players will ever have the capacity to learn no matter how much DE makes it beneficial to attempt a lich takedown even if you're unsure you have the mods in place for it. After all they didn't even do it during the patch where the entire squad gained Murmur from any players attempted takedowns.

I think the only solution to the problem is to make Liches more punishing when ignored, they're restricting other players from testing out requiem mods & restricting other players from gaining more Murmur. "Just go play solo" is not a solution to the problem in a multiplayer game, the goal should always be improving the game.

•  Mission counts as aborted if the live lich is still around when its tenno nemesis extracts, no loot or progress is given (only to the person who has a lich alive)
•  After 3 "parazon finisher states" & the lich is not attacked, it teleports to & instantly kills its tenno nemesis
•  Reset murmur progress on the current requiem for the player whose lich remains
• The player whose lich remain cannot extract until the lich has been struck

If you have more suggestions you think should be added or think something could be changed on the list please post your feedback in the thread!

Edited November 11, 2019 by Navarchus

[Meeescha]

Initially I was thinking that an unkilled Lich would up its anger meter with the player or straight up rank up but that wouldn't incentivize the player to attempt killing them.

I feel like the first option, that of mission progress basically amounting to 0 if their lich remains alive in the mission would be the best one. This would sort of open the door for some unintended griefing though? I can sort of imagine players intentionally extracting while the last player still has to down and stab their lich, therefore making them lose all progress.

Second option would also work well I feel. Lich gets the rank up, Tenno get their extra murmurs and the player is "punished". 

Third option would again, be open to griefing by certain players. Having your progress reset because the other players extracted and didn't help you take it down would definitely sour the experience. 

Overall I feel like option 1 or 3 would be best in dealing with this situation. 

Hopefully DE does something about it sooner or later.

[Navarc]

Just now, Bonfire said:

Initially I was thinking that an unkilled Lich would up its anger meter with the player or straight up rank up but that wouldn't incentivize the player to attempt killing them.

I feel like the first option, that of mission progress basically amounting to 0 if their lich remains alive in the mission would be the best one. This would sort of open the door for some unintended griefing though? I can sort of imagine players intentionally extracting while the last player still has to down and stab their lich, therefore making them lose all progress.

Second option would also work well I feel. Lich gets the rank up, Tenno get their extra murmurs and the player is "punished". 

Third option would again, be open to griefing by certain players. Having your progress reset because the other players extracted and didn't help you take it down would definitely sour the experience. 

Overall I feel like option 1 or 3 would be best in dealing with this situation. 

Hopefully DE does something about it sooner or later.

Yeah, they're definitely not great as is - maybe if Extraction gets locked by Liches the way sentient invasions make Mobile Defense locked? Then griefing wouldn't stand in the way for option 1 & 3.

[Meeescha]

1 minute ago, Navarchus said:

Yeah, they're definitely not great as is - maybe if Extraction gets locked by Liches the way sentient invasions make Mobile Defense locked? Then griefing wouldn't stand in the way for option 1 & 3.

I do like the idea of locking missions but only for the "Liched" player. 

That way everyone else can extract but the Lich nemesis tenno has to stay behind and face their Lich.

Considering the current iteration of the system is opt in, people should definitely make sure they are up to taking on their Lich by themselves in missions where they might spawn.

[Navarc]

13 minutes ago, Bonfire said:

I do like the idea of locking missions but only for the "Liched" player. 

That way everyone else can extract but the Lich nemesis tenno has to stay behind and face their Lich.

Considering the current iteration of the system is opt in, people should definitely make sure they are up to taking on their Lich by themselves in missions where they might spawn.

We do have solo-extraction now, currently it's for endless missions but making it an option for liches sounds viable as well, I'll add it to those options!

[ChilliPepperCatfish]

Ignoring the trolling, so far it seems like reasons for not killing lich include things like

• "Press X to die"
• Not wanting to level him up pointlessly
• Want to collecting all murmurs before attempting to kill
• Attempting a kill resets the lich rage meter, and they do not have the right/known mods yet (?)

But for me and some other players I met, reasons to kill include

• Not having any problem doing it alone
• Test luck
• Let other people have a turn at their lich (for those who play public)

So one of my proposals was that the lich level up scaling could be changed to trigger on the discovery of a correct requiem mod. That way the fight gets more intense through 1/3, 2/3 and 3/3, and won't affect people who don't want to pointlessly level him up and waste easier attempts. This would solve the murmur collecting issue and levelling issue, but perhaps the level scaling would be a abit stronger, since it would be 1>2>3>4 instead of 5.

As for "press x to die", well, I don't really think that is a big issue. We have 4 revives per mission now, plus 2 from arcanes. Throwback to 4 revives PER DAY. At most just let people revive without the affinity penalty? Its not like farming affinity on lich nodes is the most efficient thing to do anyway, imo 😣

As for the rage meter, heck I think each attempt/fail should charge the rage meter LOL. I would be mad if someone tried to stab me.

I recall another user suggesting a "neutralizing mod" somewhere on the forums here that basically yeets the lich out of the mission instead of attempting a kill. Thats also not bad. But it is dependant on the lich owner attempting to stab it anyway. Allowing other users to stab the lich with it would result in even more intense trolling (intentionally yetting liches out of the mission).

😄Only played 3 liches so far, mostly solo until I'm ready to kill. I'm sure there are better solutions out there.

[DesertEagle1280]

Actually, it's NOT always beneficial to click X - yes I'd get murmur progress, but I'd reduce his rage, which makes it take longer to spawn again if I'm just guessing at requiems, it makes fighting him harder once I've got all 3 requiems known and am ready to actually try to down him, and other than making him a damage sponge (which is not compelling and engaging gameplay), there is 0% reward to me for leveling him up. The weapon he gives me as a reward doesn't get any stronger, all it does is make it harder to finish him and try for another roll on the endless rng table until I burn out and trash WF from my HD. 

My first lich was a r5 to get a 25% seer.  Way to much work for a bad reward, wish I'd never let him level until I had all 3 murmurs.  The systems they've put in place for this content are ridiculous exponential RNG and result in effort being inversely proportional to reward.  That experience has put me firmly in the camp of "ignoring my lich" until I know all 3 murmurs. The murmur progress letting him kill me would get for a 1/8 chance of revealing a requiem, is not enough of a motivation to have a 7/8 chance of leveling him up and reducing the number of thrall kills

[Hudris]

14 hours ago, ChilliPepperCatfish said:

So one of my proposals was that the lich level up scaling could be changed to trigger on the discovery of a correct requiem mod. That way the fight gets more intense through 1/3, 2/3 and 3/3, and won't affect people who don't want to pointlessly level him up and waste easier attempts. This would solve the murmur collecting issue and levelling issue, but perhaps the level scaling would be a abit stronger, since it would be 1>2>3>4 instead of 5.

One of the reason players don't want to kill their lich is that they don't want it to rank up, their goal is to fight the weakest lich possible, your solution is to make Ranking Up Mandatory, they don't want a challenge, so your solution if to force a challenge upon them.

I understand that a solution must be found, as currently not trying to kill the lich hold the other players back, but if your solution to enhance the experience of some to drastically worsen the experience of others, it's not a good idea.

Not only your idea would make that instead of having choice about how to go about it, there would now be only one way to go about it, but the Lich Rank up is supposed to be a punishement for not approaching the problem strategically, incidentally approaching it strategically is supposed to have the reward of having an easier fight, your solution would remove the concept of reward and punishement alltogether by making rank up an inescapable default mechanism, removing choice is already bad enough, but what makes the rank up system interesting is the reward and punishement aspect of it, without these concept the rank up system becomes useless.

A better idea would be to make it possible to make the lich go away without it ranking up, the goal is to change the finality as little as possible to those who currently don't kill their lich to avoid rank up, and to alleviate the feeling of being held hostage by a lich owner that don't want to kill it, to this ends the solutions are multiples.

• A Consumable that can hide your from your lich if it has already spawned
• A Warframe mod that can prevent your lich to spawn in public lobbies
• A Parazon mod that can permit to stab the lich to make it go away, or just leaving your parazon void of any requiem mod would achieve the same effect.
• Making the lich simply go away if no stab attempt is done after 3 bleedout states.

None of them Impairs those who are currently complaing about being held  hostage, and none of them makes the life of those who don't kill their liches significantly harder, those are solutions that takes both points of view into the equation to arrive at an equilibrium.

 

14 hours ago, ChilliPepperCatfish said:

As for "press x to die", well, I don't really think that is a big issue. We have 4 revives per mission now, plus 2 from arcanes. Throwback to 4 revives PER DAY. At most just let people revive without the affinity penalty? Its not like farming affinity on lich nodes is the most efficient thing to do anyway, imo 😣

It's not a question of how many revive players gets now compared to before, you are out of the scope, it's about Fairness, it is not a fair death, and that is what players don't like about it, it's not a death brought by an enemy that was way stronger, nor was it a death brought by a lack of skill, it's Pure RNG, there is no way to get better to avoid it, that is why it infuriate players.

Adding insult to injury is that the one who is in a Bleedout state is the Lich when it happens, making it die and be reborn stronger like it was originally advertized was enough, there was neither a need nor a want for a masochistic mechanism.

But ultimately you are right on one point it is just a single death, when you already have a minimum of 4 and up to 6 per missions, so it not a punishement for the character, but only for the player, the real punishement is to rage induce the player, and rage inducement of the player is not a good thing, raging players burn out from the game faster which isn't good for DE, and Raging players tends to lash out at other players, which isn't good for the Community as all it creates is toxicity, in the long run it's better for Everyone if this mechanics is removed.

 

14 hours ago, ChilliPepperCatfish said:

I recall another user suggesting a "neutralizing mod" somewhere on the forums here that basically yeets the lich out of the mission instead of attempting a kill. Thats also not bad. But it is dependant on the lich owner attempting to stab it anyway. Allowing other users to stab the lich with it would result in even more intense trolling (intentionally yetting liches out of the mission).

This is something that can easily be worked around to make it work with the least amount of trolling, currently the lich goes in bleedout state where it can be stabbed, and if no attempt was made it regenerate and you have to put him in bleedout again, just lengthen the state of the bleedout state by a few seconds (to give the owner a chance to get there if he isn't), and disallow Anyone exept the Owner to Stab the lich for the 2 or 3 first Bleedouts, if the owner still hasn't tried by then, anyone can stab him to make him go away.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Hudris

[Navarc]

Has DE yet discussed a solution to the problem or acknowledged it?

[SmolRobin]

I experienced this a few times already, just got my first lich and most missions people join the squad then when their lich spawns (often theirs is the first or second to spawn) they just continue with the mission, passing the lich, ignoring it completely. They also ignore anyone telling them that it's theirs and that they need to kill it so everyone else left can have a chance to get theirs. Making the missions to spawn liches a chore to do, I would really like everyone a chance to get their liches and make progression without this halting issue from people sabotaging it.

I really think the lich needs to actively attack its target if left alone for too long or if it's defenses are taken down blank amount of time from teammates trying to help it just instantly goes after it's target?? That or just.. iunno, de-spawn if not interacted for blank amount of time? (Though that could be risky if it spawns too far away for those that are actively trying to kill their lich, it chasing/attacking is more preferred.) That way it either kills the target/gets killed by force or leaves so others can get their liches. 🤷‍♀️

[Uthael]

On 2019-11-12 at 7:53 PM, Hudris said:

It's not a question of how many revive players gets now compared to before, you are out of the scope, it's about Fairness, it is not a fair death, and that is what players don't like about it, it's not a death brought by an enemy that was way stronger, nor was it a death brought by a lack of skill, it's Pure RNG, there is no way to get better to avoid it, that is why it infuriate players.

Adding insult to injury is that the one who is in a Bleedout state is the Lich when it happens, making it die and be reborn stronger like it was originally advertized was enough, there was neither a need nor a want for a masochistic mechanism.

This is the reason I didn't want to "X" my lich. That's just bad design
Got flamed for it though, and learned that another can't spawn while mine is alive.
(Bad design)^2

On 2019-11-12 at 1:54 PM, ChilliPepperCatfish said:

I recall another user suggesting a "neutralizing mod" somewhere on the forums here that basically yeets the lich out of the mission instead of attempting a kill.

I'd do that even if I had to deposit all my loot from that mission to my "lich savings fund". Even without murmur "rewards" for the attempt.

[BDT_Flames]

On 2019-11-12 at 2:54 PM, ChilliPepperCatfish said:

Ignoring the trolling, so far it seems like reasons for not killing lich include things like

• "Press X to die"
•  

But

 I found before 2 day this trick 

When respawn your Kuva Lich ,just  death from other enemy and save  your progress  boss lv (He will gone)

Edited November 22, 2019 by BDT_Flames

[BoneBreakerx]

a simple solution would be that you cant extract unless the lich is killed or runs...

[BoneBreakerx]

On 2019-11-11 at 5:17 PM, Bonfire said:

I do like the idea of locking missions but only for the "Liched" player. 

That way everyone else can extract but the Lich nemesis tenno has to stay behind and face their Lich.

Considering the current iteration of the system is opt in, people should definitely make sure they are up to taking on their Lich by themselves in missions where they might spawn.

yes the missions are OPT IN... so having only 1/4 be locked in the mission seems stupid... if you opt in to maybe take on a lich you should be locked in even if its not your lich...

[Navarc]

It looks like they've taken one of the solutions to handle the saboteurs!

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1144842-rising-tide-update-261/

Quote

Liches now run away (but don’t rank up) if you’ve downed them 3 times, but don’t use your Parazon on them. This allows you to overpower your Lich and have it flee, instead of having the only way to remove it from a Mission be your failure to know a Requiem.