Founders scowling in disgust at Update 26

[notlamprey]

In fairness to OP my most prominent response to the update, once I started playing it, was definitely at least disgust-adjacent. I don't think I scowled so much as rolled my eyes, because this isn't anywhere close to the first time DE has done (or not done) something that prompted a strong negative reaction from me.

As of right now that's mostly faded into acceptance that my Warframe time will be very limited for a while, and that's ok. It's a great chance to catch up on playing other games with friends, among other things.

 

[Kefirno]

11 hours ago, Genoscythe said:

Remember how long Archwing was in the game before they actually managed to merge it with the main gameplay to give it some sense?

More than 5 years. 😉

[ShortCat]

12 hours ago, auxy said:

Insanely tanky liches at high rank 
I've been playing this game nigh-on seven years. I have top-end gear and top-end builds. It can still take me minutes to knock off a third of one of these liches' health bars by myself, if I'm unlucky to have it spawn while nobody else is around. It's not challenging, it's just tedious.

I have no issues killing my Lich in a under minute (it takes longer if it has this annoying teleport skill) with pretty much anything. Maybe you missed it, but Lichs have weaknesses, resistances and immunities. Check out your Lich's profile. This is a 100% learn to play issue. 

12 hours ago, auxy said:

Kuva weapons generally being sidegrades or worse 
Why did you do this? Nevermind that I'm one of very few players who actually uses the Ogris, the Tonkor, or the Drakgoon (three of my favorite guns) -- nobody wants an Ogris that fires faster from a smaller magazine for drastically less damage per shot! Nobody wants a crit-focused Drakgoon that does half the damage -- shotgun crit mods are horrible! And what the hell is with that Kuva Kohm?

How about you play with those weapons first and then present your opinion. At the moment of this response, the only Kuva weapon you played with is a Drakgoon (lvl 32). From my experience, Kuva weapons are significantly better than other variants.

13 hours ago, auxy said:

Weirdly-timed and utterly insane Riven disposition system changes
The kuva weapons (for the most part, that Kuva Kraken is pretty dope) aren't better than the regular versions, so why would they get less effect from riven mods? And you say you're extending this system to all weapons? What the hell are you even doing? This is complete madness.

This is how Rivens should have been from day 1. Atm all Rivens are regulated after the best performer in a weapon familiy. After the change each variant will have its own desposition, which is good, because now something like Akjagarra is not killed by its Prime variant. The only madness is, how people not see a positive development in this.

And other points also do not lack in terms of personal bias and ignorance, but those 3 were the worst ones.

 

[AgasKahn]

hace 11 horas, ShortCat dijo:

This is how Rivens should have been from day 1. Atm all Rivens are regulated after the best performer in a weapon familiy. After the change each variant will have its own desposition, which is good, because now something like Akjagarra is not killed by its Prime variant. The only madness is, how people not see a positive development in this.

And other points also do not lack in terms of personal bias and ignorance, but those 3 were the worst ones.

What I believe is that the system "riven" should never have existed like this, they complain that the "kuva liches" system has a lot of rng and that led to the change of the system, but they forget that the "riven" too

so suppose you got a single riven for your favorite weapon, and they give you nerf, or modify it, in a negative way, it will ALWAYS generate discontent, no matter the reason, we are players, we are here to enjoy, and any other argument, in favor of the game or system does not take into account the personal feeling of the players, which should be the most important, one does not play because it is the most polished system, or less amount of bugs, one plays simply because he enjoys it

hace 11 horas, ShortCat dijo:

I have no issues killing my Lich in a under minute (it takes longer if it has this annoying teleport skill) with pretty much anything. Maybe you missed it, but Lichs have weaknesses, resistances and immunities. Check out your Lich's profile. This is a 100% learn to play issue. 

and although at first I thought like you, I have seen many, within my clan, in the region chat, say the same, we can not say it does not happen because it happens to many people

the game has to be clear, and try to cover as many people as possible, it is a premise that must always be met, and with one people, one, that did not understand it well, you have to stop to think, why?

hace 11 horas, ShortCat dijo:

How about you play with those weapons first and then present your opinion. At the moment of this response, the only Kuva weapon you played with is a Drakgoon (lvl 32). From my experience, Kuva weapons are significantly better than other variants.

they are better? THEY ARE VERY BETTER
but behind a system of 5 form that is too tedious, and it takes away the desire to try them, it has happened to me, it happens to the vast majority, and that influences, when it comes to seeing the name, and thinking in that, is it worth it ?

and simply, it's too long, and for those of us who can't play every day, it's very annoying

[auxy]

13 hours ago, ShortCat said:

I have no issues killing my Lich in a under minute (it takes longer if it has this annoying teleport skill) with pretty much anything. Maybe you missed it, but Lichs have weaknesses, resistances and immunities. Check out your Lich's profile. This is a 100% learn to play issue.

I am very obviously aware of this as I commented on it in another post. Please read the thread before replying.

13 hours ago, ShortCat said:

How about you play with those weapons first and then present your opinion. At the moment of this response, the only Kuva weapon you played with is a Drakgoon (lvl 32). From my experience, Kuva weapons are significantly better than other variants.

I in fact have also leveled a Twin Stubba, so you didn't even do your due diligence when checking my profile. I also have several other Kuva weapons that I haven't bothered to level because I'll buy an affinity booster and do them all at once.

But moreover, I don't need to play with a weapon to see how it performs. I've been here quite long enough to judge a weapon's performance based on its statblock alone, thank you.

13 hours ago, ShortCat said:

This is how Rivens should have been from day 1.

No, it definitely isn't. I've addressed why in the other posts you didn't bother to read.

13 hours ago, ShortCat said:

And other points also do not lack in terms of personal bias and ignorance, but those 3 were the worst ones.

You don't get to talk to me about ignorance when you can't even be bothered to read the posts you're replying to.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

On 2019-11-11 at 3:28 PM, auxy said:

PUTTING FORMA BLUEPRINTS AS A BRONZE IN THE REQUIEM RELICS WOULD BE A GOOD START, DE.

Forma are so common in so many other relics that it be redundant to put forma in the Requiem relics

[TenebraeAeterna]

On 2019-11-11 at 4:08 PM, auxy said:

RNG-based lich acquisition that discourages co-op play
This is a running theme throughout this whole system, where it's focused on one player in a multiplayer game. You should have come up with a better way to make liches.

Agreed.

I'm also not too terribly keen on the current opt-in system, from a lore standpoint. Prior to this, we could justifiably explain our creation of an extremely powerful warlord on accidentally slaying them in battle without the realization of what they truly were. Their desire to implement a more friendly opt-in system now has us utilizing our parazon to convert them into a lich. It's pretty hard to explain, from a story-standpoint, why we're repeatedly creating liches beyond the notion that the Tenno are perfectly willing to unleash hell upon the solar system just for a shiny new weapon.

While that's true of the player-base, hehe, it shouldn't really be true of the Tenno. We need an opt-in system that provides the illusion of having been forced into the creation of a lich without actually being forced to create a lich...or a way to opt out upon the creation of such. They really need to think this one through because, although storyline always takes a secondary seat to gameplay, they really need to create a system that makes sense within the context of their own world too.

On 2019-11-11 at 4:08 PM, auxy said:

RNG-based requiem mod acquisition 
This is not so bad on its own, but making the requiem mods silver drops is pretty obnoxious. If you were gonna do this, weapon exilus should have been a bronze, and the gold should have been a LOT of Kuva, like 10,000 or something. Weapon exilus adapters aren't that valuable considering you can buy them with syndicate standing. The relic drop tables weren't well-thought-out.

Agreed. I'd much rather have the gold consist of a large portion of kuva.

On 2019-11-11 at 4:08 PM, auxy said:

RNG-based kuva lich properties 
This is the real crime of this system. What weapon they use, the percent value of their elemental bonus, their powers, any quirks -- it's all too random. ALL of this should have been player-influence-able if not outright player-determined.

I partially agree with this...

I'm actually in favor of the RNG-based lich properties and believe that there should be a much larger variety that's far more specific to individual frames. Quite a lot of work, but even adding just a few little tweaks that are specific to each individual frame would be nice. Regardless, this system is supposed to ultimately end up being a sort of background element to the game...an overarching system to keep spice things up. It would become very boring, very quickly, if we were able to control the system too heavily....as you'll eventually burn through the liches you want and move on entirely.

So, I want it expanded...but with a little more control in the sense that each individual frame spices up a lich in their own, unique, way...which is how I initially thought it was supposed to be. For example, I thought that if I created a Lich with Wisp, they might get one of her abilities...like Sol Gate. This wasn't the case, as it only really seems to grant them an overall theme shared between several frames...which is extremely simplistic and ultimately doomed to result in a quick burnout of the entire system.

Granted...it's bare bones right now and I fully expect them to expand upon it.

On 2019-11-11 at 4:08 PM, auxy said:

RNG-based kuva lich system progression 
Also quite bad. How many thralls will spawn per mission? Will your lich appear? Will you get to kill them if they do? Who knows!

Again, not something I mind as it's supposed to be an overarching system...something that plays out in the background. The way they implemented it though...I'm not really fond of that. I actually think the system needs stretched out, with multiple steps over the currently very simplistic system that's driving people insane because, for example, the collection of murmurs is included within the execution of liches...leaving players with conflicting goals incredibly frustrated with one another...as some have zero interest in killing their lich, screwing over those who need their lich to show so that they can progress or slay them.

With that said...again, I believe a lot of this is because the system is currently bare bones...as we know they're supposed to eventually tie into the Railjack and get a capitol ship. As it is now, however, it's very poorly implemented.

On 2019-11-11 at 4:08 PM, auxy said:

Insanely tanky liches at high rank 
I've been playing this game nigh-on seven years. I have top-end gear and top-end builds. It can still take me minutes to knock off a third of one of these liches' health bars by myself, if I'm unlucky to have it spawn while nobody else is around. It's not challenging, it's just tedious.

I mean, that's kind of the intention...no?

Don't get me wrong, they need to be more challenging over tedious...but I wouldn't expect them to just drop. This is something that I think would feel better if there was a lot more buildup to that final confrontation with your lich. I actually think the lich should be taken out on its own tileset and in the form of an actual boss mission...where you're taking the correct sequence of mods alongside valiant Tenno who've chosen to aid you in the removal of your mistake, that mistake being the lich itself...as I really wish they would make it seem like we did this accidentally rather than intentionally to get a shiny new weapon. Sigh...

Regardless, I want it to feel more like a personal boss...which, again, would be why I want more diversity in the Liches themselves with some customization features that are unique to each frame. It's a lot of work, but if they really want a system that shines and doesn't burn out like a match...well, go big or go home.

On 2019-11-11 at 4:08 PM, auxy said:

Kuva weapons generally being sidegrades or worse 
Why did you do this? Nevermind that I'm one of very few players who actually uses the Ogris, the Tonkor, or the Drakgoon (three of my favorite guns) -- nobody wants an Ogris that fires faster from a smaller magazine for drastically less damage per shot! Nobody wants a crit-focused Drakgoon that does half the damage -- shotgun crit mods are horrible! And what the hell is with that Kuva Kohm?

I can't speak for the others, but I actually like the Kuva Ogris over the traditional. That said, I do believe it could use a little more love...but it feels so much nicer to use than the regular variant. I'm one who would actually prefer side-grades, not that I'd be completely opposed to direct upgrades. Granted, they should be good side-grades...and I'm not exactly sure that any of them currently are.

...but man, that Kuva Ogris is fun to use.

On 2019-11-11 at 4:08 PM, auxy said:

Weirdly-timed and utterly insane Riven disposition system changes
The kuva weapons (for the most part, that Kuva Kraken is pretty dope) aren't better than the regular versions, so why would they get less effect from riven mods? And you say you're extending this system to all weapons? What the hell are you even doing? This is complete madness.

Agreed. Silly.

On 2019-11-11 at 4:08 PM, auxy said:

Kuva weapons requiring 5 forma each to fully master (!!!!!!!!!!!)
If, before the update, someone told me this would happen, I would never have believed them. This is stunningly-greedy and a really disgusting way to waste players' time, especially in combination with the above complaint. I love the Grineer weapons, but I don't want to use an inferior version for hours just to get the mastery out of it! I've spent hours here on these very forums defending you guys and your mastery system; I think forcing players to try all the weapons is a good thing. This is a bridge too far, though.

Do they get anything of benefit out of this? I assume not.

On 2019-11-11 at 4:08 PM, auxy said:

Absolute and utter lack of story content or lore justification for any of this stuff just appearing (and no, that little obtuse cutscene doesn't cut it)
How are kuva liches actually made? How and why are the Grineer selected to be liches? Why wasn't the Worm Queen making kuva liches before? Why are the kuva weapons different? (I was gonna say 'better', but, see above.) What even is kuva, actually?
How do they suddenly just take over a sector when it normally takes a whole invasion period for factions to even attempt to capture a sector? How does the presence or existence of kuva liches impact the other factions, and how will they respond? How does the creation and influence of a kuva lich reflect upon the locals' opinion of the Tenno?
I understand that we are supposed to have just always had the Parazon, like a retcon, but some of this other stuff feels retcon-y too, the way it's "just there". (And by the way -- when are we going to actually see and go to some of these colonies and settlements we're always hearing about?)

Y E S

This should have started with some sort of quest that causes us to, inadvertently, create our very first lich...who then wrecks our face when we try to actually take them down. We then should have been put into several more quests that were completely focused around finding out what we needed to take down our lich, ultimately resulting in obtaining the Parazon alongside the knowledge that we needed to collect murmurs.

Hell, the Parazon could have been Grineer tech, or rather...Orokin...fail-safes the Queens created as a method of executing any Lich who may have ascended beyond the genetic servitude that forces them to obey. We steal them, obtain the knowledge, and then get to work in establishing the sequence of taking them down. There's so much more this system needs, especially in story...but also in mechanics.

I'd have preferred the Parazon looked like what the Queen tried to stab in our forehead and Liches occasionally half extending from the palm of their hands...a Kuva energy-like Parazon. As I said before...go big or go home, heh.

[Braneman]

I do have one thing to mention, this is just conjecture on my part, but I think the Kuva weapons have separate riven dispositions as a test for separate riven dispositions for all weapons, so the Kraken can keep it's still not high enough disposition without being pulled down by the Kuva Kraken, and then they can bring that over to other weapons so the Zhuge disposition isn't influenced by the Zhuge Prime. The Kuva weapons disposition all seems to be 1.0 at the moment so I think they're going to start balancing them separately over time.

I do agree that the Kuva Drakgoon being crit is a bit weird but now it can reach 100% status chance without a riven, that's an angle for shotguns that you should consider.

I completely agree on the RNG heaviness of the system, it needs some sort of bad luck protection, like "oh you didn't get anything good from your lich, have a part that you can Vallence transfer that normalizes elemental stats by 5% upwards towards 50% and you can trade"

[IceColdHawk]

On 2019-11-12 at 4:32 AM, Xzorn said:

Ember lost be best and most unique ability Accelerant. Both in damage and CC capacity. Not sure how that equates to Fantastic.

Can't wait for Banshee's Sonar to be reworked to another kind of damage reduction ability so Banshee cAn sUrViVe iN hIgH lEvElS.

But hey, at least they kept Fireball in.

[CandyManCriminal]

5 hours ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

Forma are so common in so many other relics that it be redundant to put forma in the Requiem relics

are amber stars rare enough to justify?
i'd much rather a forma than an amber star any day

[Xzorn]

6 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Can't wait for Banshee's Sonar to be reworked to another kind of damage reduction ability so Banshee cAn sUrViVe iN hIgH lEvElS.

But hey, at least they kept Fireball in.

 

Ugh... That makes me sad. Where did the coop go in this game.

Ember/Banshee are two obviously team based frames though I did push them both to lvl 300 Solo just to kinda see if it was possible. Not pretty at all and wouldn't wana do it again really but it worked. Banshee in particular is like having an Asthma attack for 2 hours. Some might like that; one time was good for me.

I wonder if players realize how generic these frames are becoming. They all have the same kit elements dressed around a theme.

[Tyanya]

11 hours ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

Forma are so common in so many other relics that it be redundant to put forma in the Requiem relics

Thank you. ☺️

[DoomFruit]

Another founder's opinion on U26: WTF IS THIS S#&$.

Seriously. Melee got even worse than it used to be. Sure, polearms are now... almost as usable as they were under quick melee. But we've now lost staves, nikanas, glaives, gunblades and, when you have a stance equipped, rapiers and nunchucks.

Range should have been a defining factor of a weapon class, but now pretty much everything has the same reach. It would have been a perfect opportunity to rebalance weapon classes entirely, choosing between short range fast, strong or wide hits, long range strong or wide hits, perhaps even annular hits (eg. for whips - only the tip is going to do any real damage).

Oh, and the nature of the new attack input system completely breaks your flow when you have high attack speed.

Vauban/Ember... dunno, I haven't tried either of them. I only ever used Ember as a WoF bot for getting rid of invasions quickly for nightwave challenges, and Vauban's pointless because all of the important enemies are immune to CC.

Liches... I took one look at the whole system and went "no, #*!% that". I went very far out of my way to avoid ever encountering one. I want absolutely nothing to do with a 6 layer deep dicerolling abomination filled with immersion breaking anti-fun mechanics which would have been immediately recognised as stupid to anyone who actually playtested the whole process.

So far, I'm 100% lich free. The only time I've ever encountered one is when a squadmate's converted one appeared during a sortie rescue to "help" out - the consequence of which was my game freezing for 10 seconds and then suddenly regaining "control" in the bleedout state.

Yeah. My approach to most of DE's updates has been a case of "right, how do I arrange things so that I never once encounter this crap that they've introduced".

11 hours ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

Forma are so common in so many other relics that it be redundant to put forma in the Requiem relics

Forma only comes from relics (yes, I know about the moon puzzle room, but that doesn't seem to appear very often for me), where it's competing with prime parts. Whereas amber stars, on the other hand, drop out of crates and lockers on ordinary missions.

9 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

I'm also not too terribly keen on the current opt-in system, from a lore standpoint. Prior to this, we could justifiably explain our creation of an extremely powerful warlord on accidentally slaying them in battle without the realization of what they truly were. Their desire to implement a more friendly opt-in system now has us utilizing our parazon to convert them into a lich. It's pretty hard to explain, from a story-standpoint, why we're repeatedly creating liches beyond the notion that the Tenno are perfectly willing to unleash hell upon the solar system just for a shiny new weapon.

While that's true of the player-base, hehe, it shouldn't really be true of the Tenno. We need an opt-in system that provides the illusion of having been forced into the creation of a lich without actually being forced to create a lich...or a way to opt out upon the creation of such. They really need to think this one through because, although storyline always takes a secondary seat to gameplay, they really need to create a system that makes sense within the context of their own world too.

I can see an opt-out mechanism working. Perhaps if the larvaling is chopped down normally but not finished off, it can be recalled and repaired at the end of the mission. When I say "finished off", I mean something that's internally consistent - a means of death that can't leave a corpse. Either by frame-specific things like desecration or molecular prime or by weapon effects such as plasmor or ferrox disintegration. If a player has neither of these, the parazon could also serve as a way to abort the lich creation process. Shank the downed larvaling, kill them for good and rip out their kuva to put with the rest of your stash.

[ciTiger]

Greetings I actually agree with a lot of points and the points I don't agree I understand but not this one:

On 2019-11-11 at 9:08 PM, auxy said:

Kuva weapons generally being sidegrades or worse 

Forgive me for asking but are you drunk?

From my experience (and ALL the videos I've seem on youtube) ALL the weapons are at worse case sidegrades but mostly upgrades.

The upgrade comes not in the form of straight damage but through other stats like critical and status.

 Maybe this can be justified with the fact that you don't play "post-endgame/endurance" so you don't take that into account but it counts A LOT, because for early/mid game you already have a lot of weapons anyway, most actually.

I also don't agree with the huge nerf of CO and other things they destroyed, again also connected to endgame and I bet most founders play endgame, but I can be wrong.

 

What I agree with you though and pains me the most (and a lot of people by reading through the forums) is this part.

On 2019-11-11 at 9:08 PM, auxy said:

RNG-based lich acquisition that discourages co-op play

How can DE let out an update like this that specifically discourages co-op... I hope they are busy fixing it for yesterday.

 

Regarding Insanely tanky liches at high rank unless I take very specific gear (since I'm forced to go solo) It is tedious indeed and I might fail, what bothers me though is that there are no rewards for killing higher ranked liches and that the lich ranks up so fast, I never managed to kill any lich before they were under 5, am I missing something? And If you don't have the gear you're screwed big time lol

Kuva weapons requiring 5 forma each to fully master (!!!!!!!!!!!)

Well it's abusive not gonna lie, especially cause the way things are going every weapon is gonna be like this now, if it is it might be time for a pause.

Cheers

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by ciTiger

[ShortCat]

18 hours ago, AgasKahn said:

What I believe is that the system "riven" should never have existed like this, they complain that the "kuva liches" system has a lot of rng and that led to the change of the system, but they forget that the "riven" too

Oh, I do not like Rivens at all, but we have to work with what we have. And this change is an improvement.

19 hours ago, AgasKahn said:

and although at first I thought like you, I have seen many, within my clan, in the region chat, say the same, we can not say it does not happen because it happens to many people

I also met people who refused to fight Lich, becasuethey fear its lvl 5 version. From what I can puzzle together, people are on avarage way lass skilled/knowledgable than I anticipated.

19 hours ago, AgasKahn said:

they are better? THEY ARE VERY BETTER
but behind a system of 5 form that is too tedious, and it takes away the desire to try them, it has happened to me, it happens to the vast majority, and that influences, when it comes to seeing the name, and thinking in that, is it worth it ?

OP is stating they are worse, I disagreed on that topic. The 5 Forma is required if you want to fully master them (which is another issue), however, if you intend to use one of the Kuva weapons, you will still sink Forma into them; you do not care about mastery, then use only 2 or 3 Forma. Point is you would still invest in those weapons in the end.

 

[ShortCat]

17 hours ago, auxy said:

I am very obviously aware of this as I commented on it in another post. Please read the thread before replying.

You still claimed to have issues though. Could be connected with your builds and how you judge gear.

17 hours ago, auxy said:

But moreover, I don't need to play with a weapon to see how it performs. I've been here quite long enough to judge a weapon's performance based on its statblock alone, thank you.

Here you go:

Spoiler

And here its performance against a 165 Corrupted Bombard. You could also go 100% status, since the Kuva version allows it without a Riven.

 

17 hours ago, auxy said:

I've addressed why in the other posts you didn't bother to read.

I read it. Writing your wrong opinion several times doesn't make it right. If diffirent weapon variants show different performance, there is little to no reason to punish the lesser version due to another one. There is a very simple and logical though process behind it.

[TheQuartakkMain]

On 2019-11-11 at 10:08 PM, auxy said:

Kuva weapons generally being sidegrades or worse 
Why did you do this? Nevermind that I'm one of very few players who actually uses the Ogris, the Tonkor, or the Drakgoon (three of my favorite guns) -- nobody wants an Ogris that fires faster from a smaller magazine for drastically less damage per shot! Nobody wants a crit-focused Drakgoon that does half the damage -- shotgun crit mods are horrible! And what the hell is with that Kuva Kohm?

You have my sympathy. _{Not like it matters or anything.}

My favorite weapon the quartakk has got a ,,better" version too. The kuva quartakk,what is just a primary version of the quatz . I have been soo hyped about it ,,I will get finally a better version of my favorite weapon it's can't be true!". And well it's not true, just a big disappointment sidegrade scrap. 
The funny thing is you need to get the chance to get a lich with the weapon you actually want and pray to get a good stat bonus for it. Then get a chance to open the right mods for your lich to kill it. Then let's hope the riven disposition has not getting a major nerf to make it more useless compare to the original weapon. 
I Don't know how many people wanted to see sidegrades of their favorite weapons. And how many actually wanted to see an actually viable version of their favorite weapons what they are used for hundreds of hours or more.

But let's hope DE actually do something about these things and fix them one a way or another. _{Never gonna happen.}

[TheGrimCorsair]

Ok founder.

[Duality52]

On 2019-11-11 at 1:08 PM, auxy said:

Ember rework: Fantastic. The best rework to date. She feels even better than she ever has, and I was an Ember main in the early days of the game.

Check out her new Augments and also Wukong's rework earlier this year too. Immolated Radiance stands out as my favorite.

On 2019-11-11 at 1:08 PM, auxy said:

Grendel: Can't really comment on him effectively as his visual design makes me so disinterested I level'd-and-locker'd him.

In my opinion, the most unique frame by far eating almost anything he wants. Just feels hilarious to hear Grendel make a silly "Mmm" after eating along with Nourishing people. Few issues such as how energy hungry he is and how Regurgitate feels too low range. Also if you can or want, doing Grendel's missions to get his parts.

I understand how frustratingly unexpected the Grendel missions are but the missions were meant to mimic the story of Grendel along with the people of Riddhi. It would be better if the time of the missions were reduced too.

[Traumtulpe]

On 2019-11-11 at 10:08 PM, auxy said:

I've been playing this game nigh-on seven years. I have top-end gear and top-end builds. It can still take me minutes to knock off a third of one of these liches' health bars by myself

You are doing something wrong. I used a Rubico Prime with common mods (no riven), about 3 shots per bar at rank 5.

[Sylonus]

10 hours ago, ciTiger said:

From my experience (and ALL the videos I've seem on youtube) ALL the weapons are at worse case sidegrades but mostly upgrades.

I'd argue that the Ogris is pretty clearly a downgrade, it's giant cut to base damage is not remotely made up to by the higher status%, the charge time/mag size is about an equal tradeoff, but that base damage decrease is.... well, it's pretty insane.

All the other weapons could at least be considered a Sidegrade (Karak is borderline versus the wraith version, but better than the original) and plenty are actual upgrades, but the Ogris, whew that one took a hit.

[ciTiger]

11 hours ago, Sylonus said:

I'd argue that the Ogris is pretty clearly a downgrade, it's giant cut to base damage is not remotely made up to by the higher status%, the charge time/mag size is about an equal tradeoff, but that base damage decrease is.... well, it's pretty insane.

All the other weapons could at least be considered a Sidegrade (Karak is borderline versus the wraith version, but better than the original) and plenty are actual upgrades, but the Ogris, whew that one took a hit.

Don't have that one and don't remember seeing a video of it, maybe it's the exception.

But keep in mind the Element bug that exists right now with Kuva weapons, it may be different after the fix (which may never come so...).

Edited November 14, 2019 by ciTiger

[Sylonus]

11 hours ago, ciTiger said:

Don't have that one and don't remember seeing a video of it, maybe it's the exception.

But keep in mind the Element bug that exists right now with Kuva weapons, it may be different after the fix (which may never come so...).

Well they'd not actually confirmed it was a bug that I'd seen, until the latest hotfix, which indeed did fix the issue, and now it's a respectable upgrade, since it's slightly more damage and more status, so, now at the very least they're sidegrades and yes most are upgrades. :D

[Kerberos-3]

On 2019-11-12 at 7:27 PM, TenebraeAeterna said:

 

Do they get anything of benefit out of this? I assume not.

 

Well, in theory it would make people buy more Forma with Plat, so....

[ciTiger]

11 hours ago, Sylonus said:

Well they'd not actually confirmed it was a bug that I'd seen, until the latest hotfix, which indeed did fix the issue, and now it's a respectable upgrade, since it's slightly more damage and more status, so, now at the very least they're sidegrades and yes most are upgrades. 😄

Cheers 😉