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Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™


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Just now, CuChulainnWD said:

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Yeah I hear that. I was very hyped when Reb and Steve on the last stream bagged about how "Liches will be a challenge.", but in reality... Grind for RNG reward 1 to get RNG reward 2 to play the RNG 20questions game with a boss that has semi-RNG stats. 

I don't like that. I can't grind 18-20 hours a day, and I don't wanna donate more money to DE jsut to get "Relic Packs" or any of that S#&$. You shouldn't have make the grind so annoying it makes people wanna cash out.  You'd get more money from people who feel rewarded after an amazing challenge and brutal series of encounters that only the most coordinated will complete. 

IDK. I doubt DE will make Elite Missions with Garunteed rewards through the forgotten art of gaming and more brutal designs around them. S#&$, I've spammed the idea like 3 times already in a simple way.  And all the means to do all of it is already in the game at that!

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7 minutes ago, Komuto_ said:

Much appreciated for this change, but i dont really understand how does it reduce RNG, sorry for my poor comprehension as english isnt my mother tongue. Would be glad to have someone rephrase this and explain to me

Would the situation for this mechanic gone wrong such as "karak>seer>karak>seer>karak>seer...etc" ?

It means the First Karak rifle you got, you can expect to see it again on your third go. And the second weapon lets say you got A Drakgoon you get that your second non repeatable go, well guess what my friend, you can expect to see it again on your fourth Lich attempt. See your Karak again on your 3rd and  5th go, guess what on your 6th attempt, see Drakgoon. That is essentially what this change boils down to in the worst case scenario. It does NOTHING to address duplicate weapons. It just pushes them back just a little bit further. Yeah, right , the "Hunt continues"

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Less duplicate weapons from Liches is good, but there's one thing that you maybe forgot: duplicate rewards in the current Nightwave (like emotes, Ephemeras, armor bundles etc.). Do you plan to change it somehow, because right now many people that put effort in The Wolf of Saturn Six season feel like they are being punished for their diligence.

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Just gonna post it one more time for DE and then bugger off to decorate cause yeah... "Gut Gud" is better than the current system for "Bosses" (Can they even be considered actual bosses or even villans?): 

How about Elite Missions that are actually a challenge by actually making you weaker and more vulnerable by doing the following:
1: No Warframe Abilities(And no operator mode abilities either),
2: Being slowed down(Like having a Hobled Dragon Key on),
3: Unable to bullet jump or sprint / Void Dash or Void Mode,
4: no shields and half HP,
5: limited ammo + no ammo/hp/eng orbs/boxes,
6: 1 Life Only.
7: No Weap/Frame Mods kick in at all
8: Special Counter-Tenno Combat team that can move and fight like a Tenno and activly hunt you down in the Elite Mission.
9: Missions require a team for Max Rewards (Slot Locked). A solo Player can at least get Reward 1 assuming they don't die at all and can avoid the CTT (Counter-Tenno Team) which will still have 4 operators even if there's only one tenno.

----- 1-3 GARUNTEED  Rewards based on Performance and Team Survivability (How many people extracted, how many enemies got killed, how many times someone helped a downed squaddie*The fewer the better*, etc.) 
Reward One = Pick from any Req-Mod (Not relic. The actual mod) <- At least 2 people need to evac
Reward Two= Pick from a list of Rare Mods <-- This one should require teamwork, and with all players staying alive (Never being downed).
Reward Three= One Full-Set of Req-Relics + Chosen Riven (You pick the type of Unvield Riven) For actually completing this <-Note, this difficulty needs to be like, near impossible. Not a single down, killed the 4 Counter Tenno Team Member NPCs, completed secondary objectives.) 



 

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We  need something to push players to figth their lich, because some don't do that and other player's lich can't spawn and so we can't progress. Adding the option for other player to engage other's lich to make him disappear and reward them whit some whispers will be an idea.

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2 minutes ago, salvatore913 said:

We  need something to push players to figth their lich, because some don't do that and other player's lich can't spawn and so we can't progress. Adding the option for other player to engage other's lich to make him disappear and reward them whit some whispers will be an idea.

Simple: Lich Spawns, can't evac.  Evac time shuts off upon a Lich dropping into the match and the lich gets lit up as an objective, thus forced to fight the lich. Also bring back the ENTIRE team getting Murmurs as well.

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Meh.
RNG reduction is a joke. Woah, my liches will now take turns to have weapons I already got instead of dupe streaks. Honestly this seems more like an attempt to make an issue less apparent rather than to solve it.
Requiems aren't that big of a deal, but ok, better have this new feature than not.
If trading lich means they become this player's active lich that they can kill then it's alright. But trade... You're expecting me to pay someone plat to bypass this RNG wall that stops me from next MR? Lmao.
Still no way to utilize inferior duplicates? Still no ways to recycle weapons to get ones you don't have? Disappointment continues.
Go fix ghost birds and endless loading during Exploiter fight in Fortuna instead. It doesn't seem like you're willing to make Lich system even remotely tolerable so don't waste resources, go work on some actual content. Make new, fix old.

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6 minutes ago, salvatore913 said:

We  need something to push players to figth their lich, because some don't do that and other player's lich can't spawn and so we can't progress. Adding the option for other player to engage other's lich to make him disappear and reward them whit some whispers will be an idea.

Play solo.

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14 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!

Trade no, donate to clan maybe, put those kuva weapons in dojo research at the exchange of a token after a kuva lich kill definitely yes.

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14 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

Not enough. I'm not interested in min/maxing so duplicate weapons are useless for me and i still can't let the lich go. Please consider a delete lich button, that works twice a day and scales on MR (so you know, having a high MR has a point, for once).

But the worse thing is that there is no revert on the removal of the 10% murmur to squad when trying a combo or the increased % on the 3rd ring. As long as there is no reduction on the insane amount of murmur required, this is unplayable, at least for me.

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Just now, Kefirno said:

Play solo.

Yes because everyone is Max MR with a fully decked out Modded Weapon/Frame/Etc and can down their lvl5 lich in 3 shots lol /s. Some people have an entire red system and are barely MR10 and got no idea how to get kitted properly so Solo isn't going to work for them. They will need to shoot the lich for several minutes or worse just to get the first armor bar down lol. Assuming they will even survive. Add on top of that it takes a while to learn what mods you need, what's worth investing, the right weapons, amps, etc etc etc. Solo Play doesn't teach you all that either.  Solo Play is best for the main story quests and the secondary quests with it, not for this "Villan System". 



 

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36 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

It means the First Karak rifle you got, you can expect to see it again on your third go. And the second weapon lets say you got A Drakgoon you get that your second non repeatable go, well guess what my friend, you can expect to see it again on your fourth Lich attempt. See your Karak again on your 3rd and  5th go, guess what on your 6th attempt, see Drakgoon. That is essentially what this change boils down to in the worst case scenario. It does NOTHING to address duplicate weapons. It just pushes them back just a little bit further. Yeah, right , the "Hunt continues"

So as u obtain more weapons, this mechanic doesn't really help right? like i am missing 4 weapons atm

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1 minute ago, Schrodinger314 said:

Yes because everyone is Max MR with a fully decked out Modded Weapon/Frame/Etc and can down their lvl5 lich in 3 shots lol /s. Some people have an entire red system and are barely MR10 and got no idea how to get kitted properly so Solo isn't going to work for them. They will need to shoot the lich for several minutes or worse just to get the first armor bar down lol. Assuming they will even survive.

Asking for help in clan or recruiting chat would be more reasonable option than just expecting some randoms in public group to compromise their own grind.

7 minutes ago, Schrodinger314 said:

Solo Play is best for the main story quests and the secondary quests with it, not for this "Villan System".

Solo Play is best for whenever there is a possibility that randoms might screw you over.

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I don't mind that you need to take your time on this. I like the concept of the Lich system and I want it to have staying power in Warframe.

What would make that impossible is if you glossed over the more in-depth feedback that deals with problems with the system at its core, opting to instead treat surface issues. Frankly, up until now it feels like that's all we've gotten. It's all been about addressing rates and chances, instead of looking at things like how little agency we have in the system (read: all we do, when you boil it down, is farm murmur), and why that makes the Lich neither a personal or persistent foe.

I think you guys can pull it off, but I really do think it will take a lot of work and I hope that you're willing to put in the effort. 

P.S. Please expand the dojo room capacity before adding the War Room.

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trading the liches sounds kinda nice but i would rlly like to know how the trade works.

1) can you you only trade lich for lich? (if yes . good)

2) can you extract the weapon from the lich or do you have to hunt the traded lich? 

3) what kind of informations are displayed during the trade?

trading the liches is a big improvement on the rng part but i really hope that you still have to engage the lich content in some way and not that you skip hunting the liches and just buy the top tier weapons for platinum. so there are 2 scenarios i would like to see:

1) you can only trade lich for lich and then extract its weapon.

2) you can trade the lich for whatever you want but you still have to hunt that lich after the trade

in both ways you actually have to PLAY the game to get the weapon. i really dont like the idea to skip all the content and buy your way through the liches^^ these are not just some other prime weapons...

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13 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:
  • RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod. This gives them some additional use, as well as helping you clean up your inventory.

Just remove the charges already, best way to keep a clean inventory is to not have defiled trash on it in the first place.

 >I don't play the game very much(reasons irrelevant in this case) but the feel i have with the system as is makes me want to ignore the whole kuva lich content. With the effort to get the relics, get void traces, upgrade them, run a radiant share with four people just to, in the end you get only duplicates in the reward window. I haven't seen a requiem mod yet on my rewards list, and then, if i get one, it will lose charges and turn into another pile of useless pixels on my inventory.

And you can buy the mods in the market.... and the mods have charge, feels like throwing platinum to the space pigs, like buying argon for plat and letting it decay (its just an expression people, don't worry about argon in game)

  >> Please don't talk about "i can do it so others can too" or "this is a end game or something" because the game have players of different levels, whatever happens should be fair to all of us.

        Thanks for reading

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17 hours ago, Senguash said:

Also, right now you're not really able to play with your friends all that well. You don't get enrage progress and your lich can't spawn if you get taxied to a node you don't have, and you and your friends won't randomly have same nodes as you most of the time. 
Can we get it changed so that being taxied just works? I just want playing with friends to be equal to playing with pubs.

Changing into this defeats the purpose of the current system

If you have enough friends, you can just keep getting taxied into one mission and reap all the benefits and rewards instead of having to do different missions

although I agree that Id rather just play certain missions, this is not what DE intended

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On this and many similar suggestions:

14 hours ago, Voltage said:

Any chance DE could look into upgrading Kuva weaponry? As in, if I own a 50% Toxin Kuva Kohm, and I keep getting 25-30% Toxin Kuva Kohms, I could fuse them into my 50% Toxin Kuva Kohm to slightly work my way up to 60%?

Warframe is a game that always has caps on numbers - look at rivens, they are randomized but capped. So there will be a certain max value a kuva weapon will be upgradable to. And, of course, people will want to reach that max value, kuva weapons won't be completely "built" until you fuse a good number of them together. All this leads to is taking the current already excessive grind and multiplying it by, say, 10 (or whatever the number of weapons one would need to fuse is). So it doesn't feel like a good solution.

On the other hand, the cap already exists, and the only way to reach it is to roll an ideal roll in kuva lich generation, which is not guaranteed even after 100 attempts. But maybe it's still better than having a fail-safe way to achieve the cap that players will feel obliged to follow and that involves an insane amount of grind.

With rivens and now with kuva weapons DE is trying to add the excitement of playing the randomization game and getting higher than average stats on something, as opposed to everyone having the exact same arsenal. Giving the fusion system that will allow to reach the highest roll is effectively removing the randomization, but having unwarranted grind added to the mix. An easier solution is just removing randomization of numbers altogether.

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38 minutes ago, Komuto_ said:

So as u obtain more weapons, this mechanic doesn't really help right? like i am missing 4 weapons atm

Pretty much. You are correct, it will not help you get what you need. Me either for that matter. I have 3 left to collect. After this Workshop update, I have no desire to continue the hunt. DE have told us that they really do not wish to meaningfully or objectively wish to make needed and substantial improvements to the games mechanics or entertainment value. They only wish to preserve and prolong the grind.

For me this means until such time DE takes more drastic and substantive action to improve the game mode systems, my Lich hunting days are pretty much over. They have had 2 plus years, and two weeks since launch to get this game mode working well. They are squandering good game play for bad game design and mechanics that on the surface has awesome potential. The ball is in DE's court.

I was hoping that we would see some real improvements made this week. I was delusional. I would wager their will be no Devstream this week to give the community some clarity in the direction DE wants to take the Lich system. Instead we are given this Workshop lip service that does NOTHING to improve the game mode. What makes me angry is the fact that I am now angry over the direction DE is taking, and their dragging of their collective feet to get anything MEANINGFUL and incentivizing to play... DONE.

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I think it would be a i nice addition, if we were able to see the weapon we were about to get on the Larvling, so we could skip them, should it be a weapon we already have.

There should be a purpose behind adding forma to your weapons, because capacity & MR aint one. do it like the paracesis, where there is an innate bonus, like extra elemental damage or extra damage vs. grineer

Also would be nice, if more elements were added, like slash, gas etc. 

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