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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™

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DE you came this close to making a game mode that people could really sink their teeth into and be sustainable. You're heading in the right direction, yet you are failing to execute. It has been just under 2 weeks since its release, I am working on Lich number 20, and I am debating whether I wish to continue just based on this half assed, dragging your feet in the sand excuse that you call a Workshop update.

After initially reading this post and sleeping on it, it has left a rather sour taste in my mouth and a real lack of desire to continue this grind. Why? Because you DE have been provided a Metric S#&$ TON of Fantastic, Brilliant, clever feed back to fix this system where it can be both sustainable, enjoyable, repeatable and still be profitable to you. Instead you choose to half ass, drag your feet with inch by inch small changes that affect nothing in the outcome your player base has asked for. I can not even believe I am writing this article,as for a long time I have had faith in DE to do the right thing, and HONESTLY correct your mistakes and misdirection. Lately, all I have seen is mistakes and misdirection, and I am very disappointed.

DE you wanted to make an epic jump forward, with imaginative and perhaps borrowed ideas, half baked it in the oven to serve us up what on the surface is a fun, right direction idea, but when bitten into tastes rotten. I like a grindy game; even this is ridiculous. Give us great weapons, but then RNG the elemental rolls. Make many people pay Plat for Forma to upgrade the weapons and affinity, but don't tie it to the elemental % Bonus. Heck there have been a ton of well thought out solutions to the Duplicate/% Elemental  Bonus issue. The Valence system is a step in the right direction but again it is half assed and half hearted.

A Lich is a creature that comes back from Death, not our Deaths. Yet you have it BassAkwards. I have no problem working with in the current mechanics even if I do not agree with them, thus forcing conflict among YOUR Community because those that want to fight the Lich can not because one person does not want their Lich to rank up. Or how about the lack of Community spirit your system has created because the "Bug" of everyone gaining some murmurs on a Lich kills has now been denied? DE WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? Really? Remember what happened to Bethesda, it had a Community good will through the roof, until they walked down the Fallout 76 path. That is what I see happening with you DE, you are slowly eroding  your community good will.

TLDR :2 plus years you have had to work on this system, and this is what you have given us, and continue to drag your feet on making sweeping changes as suggested by your community. I am almost done. Relfecting on this post, I come to realise I am angry because I care about this game, the community, and the potential this game has to offer, and right now it looks like you are squandering it because my Telepathetic powers tell me the overlords are holding you back from doing what is right in the long term, instead favouring the short term economic gain that will kill this awesome game.

Edited by CuChulainnWD
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Thanks for the feedback and amount of time put into this.

Why wasn't the most offending topic IMHO addressed? TEAM PLAY INCENTIVES !!!

- TEAM PLAY INCENTIVES (Randoms and Squad Friends) It's a mess of those who want to kill their lichs and those who dont. Those who dont kill, dont let other lich spawn which can be a small problem to a world of frustration is if happens several times in a row, which it does. Forcing people to go solo should not be a thing, if I want to play solo I'll play other games!
Related:
- KEEP MURMUR FARMING FOR OTHERS PLAYERS even when the Lich has been killed (maybe not the player that killed him).
- MY LICH SHOULD SPAWN "ALWAYS" even if another player doesn't kill theirs in a certain amount of time, spawn more Lichesor remove the first Lich.
- I DON T DESERVE TO DIE I still won a battle against the Lich, even if I have the wrong mod I won a battle I shouldn't be rewarded with a DEATH! (Maybe death is understandable if you get the third and last mod wrong because you are so close and have battled him a lot and he should be stronger now, but that's it)

- WEAPON RNG REDUCTION I hope this is a joke because it changes nothing, it barely reduces your chance to get new weapons and its WORSE if you want the same weapon with better stats. 
IF you allow Lich Trading make it an WEAPON ELEMENT % INCREASE, where you always get a % percent element HIGHER than your last duplicate weapon, THIS alone will fix so many peoples worries I can't believe you missed it!

- FIX KUVA % ELEMENT BUG the bug that makes weapons worse than the original version if the bonus element already exists in the weapon.

- TEAM PLAY INCENTIVES (Randoms and Squad Friends) Yes THIS again, if you don't do anything else do this!

Edited by ciTiger
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Just now, CuChulainnWD said:

DE you came this close to making game mode that people could really sink their teeth into and be sustainable. You're heading in the right track. It has been just under 2 weeks since its release, I am working on Lich number 20, and I am debating whether I wish to continue just based on this half assed, dragging your feet in the sand excuse that you call a Workshop update.

After initially reading this post and sleeping on it, it has left a rather sour taste in my mouth and a real lack of desire to continue this grind. Why? Because you DE have been provided a Metric S#&$ TON of Fantastic, Brilliant, clever feed back to fix this system where it can be both sustainable, enjoyable, repeatable and still be profitable to you. Instead you choose to half ass, drag your feet with inch by inch small changes that affect nothing in the outcome your player base has asked for. I can not even believe I am writing this article,as for a long time I have had faith in DE to do the right thing, and HONESTLY correct your mistakes and misdirection. Lately, all I have seen is mistakes and misdirection, and I am very disappointed.

DE you wanted to make an epic jump forward, with imaginative and perhaps borrowed ideas, half baked it in the oven to serve us up what on the surface is a fun, right direction idea, but when bitten into tastes rotten. I like a grindy game; even this is ridiculous. Give us great weapons, but then RNG the elemental rolls. Make many people pay Plat for Forma to upgrade the weapons and affinity, but don't tie it to the elemental % Bonus. Heck there have been a ton of well thought out solutions to the Duplicate/% Elemental  Bonus issue. The Valence system is a step in the right direction but again it is half assed and half hearted.

A Lich is a creature that comes back from Death, not our Deaths. Yet you have it BassAkwards. I have no problem working with in the current mechanics even if I do not agree with them, thus forcing conflict among YOUR Community because those that want to fight the Lich can not because one person does not want their Lich to rank up. Or how about the lack of Community spirit your system has created because the "Bug" of everyone gaining some murmurs on a Lich kills has now been denied? DE WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? Really? Remember what happened to Bethesda, it has a Community good will through the roof, until they walked down the Fallout 76 path. That is what I see happening with you DE, you are slowly eroding  your community good will.

TLDR :2 plus years you have had to work on this system, and this is what you have given us, and continue to drag your feet on making sweeping changes as suggested by your community. I am almost done. Relfecting on this post, I come to realise I am angry because I care about this game, the community, and the potential this game has to offer, and right now it looks like you are squandering it because my Telepathetic powers tell me the overlords are holding you back from doing what is right in the long term, instead favouring the short term economic gain that will kill this awesome game.



Let's hope DE takes your feedback seriously. Wish they'd stop wrapping RNG into RNG into RNG. RNG is fine and all but not a real "Challenge" of anythign other than time. Which is kinda S#&$ty for people who work 80+ Hours a week who don't get to play games at their desk.

More "Git Gud" gameplay instead of Liches requiring triple layers of RNG to beat would be a start. See my above post for example of that. 

Now I get the other argument I know some people will make "Well u got job pay for plat to buy req mods!". No, I wanna buy Plat to Support DE when I enjoy the game down to my heart. I've already put about 300+USD into this game in my first month with it because I read all the great and good things about DE and the core team and the community. So this isn't a "I hate DE post". THis is a "Can we cut the S#&$ and "git" on with the "Git Gud"?" post.

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As far as I can see these looks like some kind of expectation managing.

We players expect something new, DE make something new but in some ways awfully implemented. Then they *fix* or *improve* some aspect of it and we would be happy, not realizing that if the new stuff is in the *improved* state to begin with we might still find it somewhat unacceptable.

I hope that's not the actual case but it seems apparent to me that such kind of new content would definitely evoke significant amount of complaints and the developers should've also realised that.

Edited by Jaq.
grammar check
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Just now, Schrodinger314 said:



Let's hope DE takes your feedback seriously. Wish they'd stop wrapping RNG into RNG into RNG. RNG is fine and all but not a real "Challenge" of anythign other than time. Which is kinda S#&$ty for people who work 80+ Hours a week who don't get to play games at their desk.

More "Git Gud" gameplay instead of Liches requiring triple layers of RNG to beat would be a start. See my above post for example of that. 

Now I get the other argument I know some people will make "Well u got job pay for plat to buy req mods!". No, I wanna buy Plat to Support DE when I enjoy the game down to my heart. I've already put about 300+USD into this game in my first month with it because I read all the great and good things about DE and the core team and the community. So this isn't a "I hate DE post". THis is a "Can we cut the S#&$ and "git" on with the "Git Gud"?" post.

Yeah it is really starting to break my heart seeing where DE is going. I know this is a rant. I started playing Warframe back in August 2015 because I got sick of the Dev team in Trion's Defiance. At the time their game was 25 Gigs, and more bug addled spaghetti code that was unssupported. It was nasty pay to win rubbish. Friends pointed me to Warframe. I fell in love with it. It was at the time 1/5 the game file size, also known as Bugframe, at least the Devs cared enough to update and consistently bug fix.

I appreciate Steve's vision for the game, but their execution of it lately is falling way short. It is like they are deliberately going out of their way to mess it up with game mechanics that are designed to aggravate rather than keep entertained. Since this latest Workshop update, and to read how little progress they are willing to make this potentially great game mode work, I am about ready to say, I am done.  Peace out with it. I will see what they do with Rail Jack, and or Duvari.

The problem is they have had 2 plus years to work on the King pin system, melee 3.0 and yet they still seem to manage to make a Dogs Breakfast of it. DE was better than that. I would suggest to them to get their house in order and pull up their socks, because even I now see that they are FAST losing their community good will.

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13 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

Much appreciated for this change, but i dont really understand how does it reduce RNG, sorry for my poor comprehension as english isnt my mother tongue. Would be glad to have someone rephrase this and explain to me

Would the situation for this mechanic gone wrong such as "karak>seer>karak>seer>karak>seer...etc" ?

Edited by Komuto_
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Just now, CuChulainnWD said:

Snip


Yeah I hear that. I was very hyped when Reb and Steve on the last stream bagged about how "Liches will be a challenge.", but in reality... Grind for RNG reward 1 to get RNG reward 2 to play the RNG 20questions game with a boss that has semi-RNG stats. 

I don't like that. I can't grind 18-20 hours a day, and I don't wanna donate more money to DE jsut to get "Relic Packs" or any of that S#&$. You shouldn't have make the grind so annoying it makes people wanna cash out.  You'd get more money from people who feel rewarded after an amazing challenge and brutal series of encounters that only the most coordinated will complete. 

IDK. I doubt DE will make Elite Missions with Garunteed rewards through the forgotten art of gaming and more brutal designs around them. S#&$, I've spammed the idea like 3 times already in a simple way.  And all the means to do all of it is already in the game at that!

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7 minutes ago, Komuto_ said:

Much appreciated for this change, but i dont really understand how does it reduce RNG, sorry for my poor comprehension as english isnt my mother tongue. Would be glad to have someone rephrase this and explain to me

Would the situation for this mechanic gone wrong such as "karak>seer>karak>seer>karak>seer...etc" ?

It means the First Karak rifle you got, you can expect to see it again on your third go. And the second weapon lets say you got A Drakgoon you get that your second non repeatable go, well guess what my friend, you can expect to see it again on your fourth Lich attempt. See your Karak again on your 3rd and  5th go, guess what on your 6th attempt, see Drakgoon. That is essentially what this change boils down to in the worst case scenario. It does NOTHING to address duplicate weapons. It just pushes them back just a little bit further. Yeah, right , the "Hunt continues"

Edited by CuChulainnWD
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Less duplicate weapons from Liches is good, but there's one thing that you maybe forgot: duplicate rewards in the current Nightwave (like emotes, Ephemeras, armor bundles etc.). Do you plan to change it somehow, because right now many people that put effort in The Wolf of Saturn Six season feel like they are being punished for their diligence.

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Just gonna post it one more time for DE and then bugger off to decorate cause yeah... "Gut Gud" is better than the current system for "Bosses" (Can they even be considered actual bosses or even villans?): 

How about Elite Missions that are actually a challenge by actually making you weaker and more vulnerable by doing the following:
1: No Warframe Abilities(And no operator mode abilities either),
2: Being slowed down(Like having a Hobled Dragon Key on),
3: Unable to bullet jump or sprint / Void Dash or Void Mode,
4: no shields and half HP,
5: limited ammo + no ammo/hp/eng orbs/boxes,
6: 1 Life Only.
7: No Weap/Frame Mods kick in at all
8: Special Counter-Tenno Combat team that can move and fight like a Tenno and activly hunt you down in the Elite Mission.
9: Missions require a team for Max Rewards (Slot Locked). A solo Player can at least get Reward 1 assuming they don't die at all and can avoid the CTT (Counter-Tenno Team) which will still have 4 operators even if there's only one tenno.

----- 1-3 GARUNTEED  Rewards based on Performance and Team Survivability (How many people extracted, how many enemies got killed, how many times someone helped a downed squaddie*The fewer the better*, etc.) 
Reward One = Pick from any Req-Mod (Not relic. The actual mod) <- At least 2 people need to evac
Reward Two= Pick from a list of Rare Mods <-- This one should require teamwork, and with all players staying alive (Never being downed).
Reward Three= One Full-Set of Req-Relics + Chosen Riven (You pick the type of Unvield Riven) For actually completing this <-Note, this difficulty needs to be like, near impossible. Not a single down, killed the 4 Counter Tenno Team Member NPCs, completed secondary objectives.) 



 

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We  need something to push players to figth their lich, because some don't do that and other player's lich can't spawn and so we can't progress. Adding the option for other player to engage other's lich to make him disappear and reward them whit some whispers will be an idea.

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2 minutes ago, salvatore913 said:

We  need something to push players to figth their lich, because some don't do that and other player's lich can't spawn and so we can't progress. Adding the option for other player to engage other's lich to make him disappear and reward them whit some whispers will be an idea.

Simple: Lich Spawns, can't evac.  Evac time shuts off upon a Lich dropping into the match and the lich gets lit up as an objective, thus forced to fight the lich. Also bring back the ENTIRE team getting Murmurs as well.

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Meh.
RNG reduction is a joke. Woah, my liches will now take turns to have weapons I already got instead of dupe streaks. Honestly this seems more like an attempt to make an issue less apparent rather than to solve it.
Requiems aren't that big of a deal, but ok, better have this new feature than not.
If trading lich means they become this player's active lich that they can kill then it's alright. But trade... You're expecting me to pay someone plat to bypass this RNG wall that stops me from next MR? Lmao.
Still no way to utilize inferior duplicates? Still no ways to recycle weapons to get ones you don't have? Disappointment continues.
Go fix ghost birds and endless loading during Exploiter fight in Fortuna instead. It doesn't seem like you're willing to make Lich system even remotely tolerable so don't waste resources, go work on some actual content. Make new, fix old.

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6 minutes ago, salvatore913 said:

We  need something to push players to figth their lich, because some don't do that and other player's lich can't spawn and so we can't progress. Adding the option for other player to engage other's lich to make him disappear and reward them whit some whispers will be an idea.

Play solo.

Edited by Kefirno
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14 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!

Trade no, donate to clan maybe, put those kuva weapons in dojo research at the exchange of a token after a kuva lich kill definitely yes.

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14 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

Not enough. I'm not interested in min/maxing so duplicate weapons are useless for me and i still can't let the lich go. Please consider a delete lich button, that works twice a day and scales on MR (so you know, having a high MR has a point, for once).

But the worse thing is that there is no revert on the removal of the 10% murmur to squad when trying a combo or the increased % on the 3rd ring. As long as there is no reduction on the insane amount of murmur required, this is unplayable, at least for me.

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Just now, Kefirno said:

Play solo.

Yes because everyone is Max MR with a fully decked out Modded Weapon/Frame/Etc and can down their lvl5 lich in 3 shots lol /s. Some people have an entire red system and are barely MR10 and got no idea how to get kitted properly so Solo isn't going to work for them. They will need to shoot the lich for several minutes or worse just to get the first armor bar down lol. Assuming they will even survive. Add on top of that it takes a while to learn what mods you need, what's worth investing, the right weapons, amps, etc etc etc. Solo Play doesn't teach you all that either.  Solo Play is best for the main story quests and the secondary quests with it, not for this "Villan System". 



 

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Making weapon optention like element ? go to  sedna to only have 2-3 weapon, sturne for other, etc ? or depending af the mission.

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36 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

It means the First Karak rifle you got, you can expect to see it again on your third go. And the second weapon lets say you got A Drakgoon you get that your second non repeatable go, well guess what my friend, you can expect to see it again on your fourth Lich attempt. See your Karak again on your 3rd and  5th go, guess what on your 6th attempt, see Drakgoon. That is essentially what this change boils down to in the worst case scenario. It does NOTHING to address duplicate weapons. It just pushes them back just a little bit further. Yeah, right , the "Hunt continues"

So as u obtain more weapons, this mechanic doesn't really help right? like i am missing 4 weapons atm

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1 minute ago, Schrodinger314 said:

Yes because everyone is Max MR with a fully decked out Modded Weapon/Frame/Etc and can down their lvl5 lich in 3 shots lol /s. Some people have an entire red system and are barely MR10 and got no idea how to get kitted properly so Solo isn't going to work for them. They will need to shoot the lich for several minutes or worse just to get the first armor bar down lol. Assuming they will even survive.

Asking for help in clan or recruiting chat would be more reasonable option than just expecting some randoms in public group to compromise their own grind.

7 minutes ago, Schrodinger314 said:

Solo Play is best for the main story quests and the secondary quests with it, not for this "Villan System".

Solo Play is best for whenever there is a possibility that randoms might screw you over.

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14 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod. This gives them some additional use, as well as helping you clean up your inventory.

Maybe it should be 3 cause we have uses for the mod

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If you want less random maybe it should be like in diablo2 (different bosses have its own loot tables). The place where you generate lich will increase % of specific guns or smth.

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I don't mind that you need to take your time on this. I like the concept of the Lich system and I want it to have staying power in Warframe.

What would make that impossible is if you glossed over the more in-depth feedback that deals with problems with the system at its core, opting to instead treat surface issues. Frankly, up until now it feels like that's all we've gotten. It's all been about addressing rates and chances, instead of looking at things like how little agency we have in the system (read: all we do, when you boil it down, is farm murmur), and why that makes the Lich neither a personal or persistent foe.

I think you guys can pull it off, but I really do think it will take a lot of work and I hope that you're willing to put in the effort. 

P.S. Please expand the dojo room capacity before adding the War Room.

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trading the liches sounds kinda nice but i would rlly like to know how the trade works.

1) can you you only trade lich for lich? (if yes . good)

2) can you extract the weapon from the lich or do you have to hunt the traded lich? 

3) what kind of informations are displayed during the trade?

trading the liches is a big improvement on the rng part but i really hope that you still have to engage the lich content in some way and not that you skip hunting the liches and just buy the top tier weapons for platinum. so there are 2 scenarios i would like to see:

1) you can only trade lich for lich and then extract its weapon.

2) you can trade the lich for whatever you want but you still have to hunt that lich after the trade

in both ways you actually have to PLAY the game to get the weapon. i really dont like the idea to skip all the content and buy your way through the liches^^ these are not just some other prime weapons...

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