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Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™


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52 minutes ago, DesertEagle1280 said:

Valence transfer should up the ele % - that would make getting repeat crap rolls more stomachable - eg get 25% and 27% seers, the combined form keeps the forma/exilus progress, and goes to 35% ele instead of 25 or 27, that way getting duplicates that are equally crap (or maybe even worse variants) isn't so much of a waste of player time. Then say you get another 28% seer, combine that, and your "master" weapon goes to 40%, etc.  This would allow player agency to improve their weapon mitigating some of the RNG frustration, keep duplicate liches relevant longer giving the whole system longevity, and maintain the covert/kill decision relevancy for longer as well.

Otherwise, even with murmurs going faster, it's hard to feel good about grinding for a turd when you get low % elemental rolls.

Also, what if we also took a maxed disposition weapon out of the spawn rotation?  Like say you get 5 cold seers, by combining them you wind up working up to a 60%.   From that point on, you have a 0% chance to spawn a lich with a cold seer (could still proc rad seer or toxic, etc by choosing to use a different frame for that element).  In terms of lore, maybe say the lich knows through kuva-magic of it's brethrens failure to off you with the cold seer, so they refuse to try again with a weapon that has proven a failure.

This would encourage people to keep playing even when they keep getting the same, because not only will it always make their existing one better (whether higher or lower % roll), but it also gives a finite amount of repetition where by completing the weapon you guarantee other drops. Added to my intial suggestion of a guaranteed improvement to ele % it means every lich would guarantee progress in some way - either improving a weapon you have, or spawning a weapon you don't.

There are many ways to skin the Kavat. Either let our duplicate weapons be used as upgrades for a % bonus to our weapons, or let the 5 forma we invest into the weapon grant a % bonus into the weapon until it is maxed at the 5th forma. Either would work. Either  would make the weapon hunt more sustainable and viable as well as repeatable. The Forma method would benefit DE financially, directly. Wonder if they thought about that? I bet they are now.

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It's already been mentioned in the thread but it's worth reinforcing. We need to be able to combine/transmute two identical weapons with the same status together to get a slightly higher status%. In addition to this, why is it that we can only trade a lich we capture (Aka sit through the murmur grind only to spend more time trying to trade the unwanted lich), instead of put them on a bounty board in your clan, rid yourself of your lich (Possibly pay a varying credit fee with a cooldown before your next lich can spawn), or even just trade the weapons from the liches you've killed? All seem like solid mechanics, and opting for 1 clunky option instead of giving the player choices seems like a cop out.

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I like the looks of these changes, and they'll definitely help what we've got.

However, a solid foundation is still only a foundation, and I'm hoping we'll get even more built on this system. Liches right now feel same-y, even with totally different weapons and powers. I'd love to see more variation on tactics they can use - for example, one idea I saw on reddit is occasionally 'sabotaging' missions you're doing by masquerading as or replacing the objective (like being the rescue target) . One of my own is them teaming with other groups that hate you, and tag-teaming with other assassins or Syndicate Death Squads.

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Good changes overall, but we absolutly need a system to "reinvest" in the lich system all this kuva we accumulate while farming the requiem relics (something to reduce the grind of the futur liches would be really good). Here I am with a whopping 100k Kuva that is totally useless because I really am not interested in Riven rerolls.

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Changes look like a step in the right direction.

However why do we still need to convert the lich before conceding them to someone else? While the trading option is a great idea it still doesn't stop players needing to hunt Liches that don't provide any rewards for the player. If i get a duplicate weapon with a worse roll I have zero motivation to hunt that Lich and even if I have a friend who wants that weapon I still have to hunt him, expend resources and time to be able to do so.

I don't mind hunting the liches in general but I feel like I'm wasting my time when I hunt a luch that doesn't provide a new weapon or a better roll of a wepaon I already have. It would be great if either I get a way to drop Liches I don't get anytihng out of or have other rewards for me to go on lich hunting. Maybe I can dissolve weapons I don't want at all into a sizeable amount of Kuva? Maybe there can be a Kuva reward for converting the LIch as them helping doesn't seem to have any notable impact other than being a neat moment the first few times it happens.

Farming the requiem mods via Kuva Survival gives extra incentive via Kuva. So I feel like its worth doing them even if I don't immediately need a requiem mod. Arbitrations also reward a steadily useful resource, so you gain something even if you just run them for fun. The Liches however lack that,especially since they are in separated missions and are not combinable with other efforts and just hunting a Lich for multiple hours potentially just to get another chance at not being disappointed by a duplicate feels pretty bad.

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"Weapon RNG reduction"

You removed a 1/13= 7,7% chance to get a duplicate. This 7,7% chance was NOT was broke the Lich system. The main hated RNG is the 1-1/40= 97,5% Chance to get a non max rolled weapon, with no other way to improve the value other than gambling. So, we got a 2,5% Chance for a max rolled weapon, considering that we have 13 weapons that makes a 1/13*2,5= 0.19% chance to get the weapon you want max rolled.

That's (1-0.19)/0.19= 525.3 ~526 failed attempts before you get a max rolled weapon you want.

At (fast +good RNG + not counting void farm time) 4 hours average that's 526*4= 2104 HOURS on average until you get a max roll of the weapon you'd like to have.

In this context the announced "weapon RNG reduction" is less than a joke. It's not the RNG reduction we need.

We need a fair compromise, to keep people interested in the long one, but also make their time investment feel valued. We need a progression system like suggested here. As it stands the required grind is beyond any sense and reason.

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RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod. This gives them some additional use, as well as helping you clean up your inventory.

Idk what to say about this... i mean the mods are still consumables but now if you want to recharge, the recharge is a RANDOM one....it would've been better if they regenerated themselves after 1h(after all the charges have been used).

And also the reduction of the weapons getting the same is good... but too much grind to have your weapon of choice with 59% status element.

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18 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

 

  • TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!

Uh.

 

Chaps.

 

Ladies.

 

Is that tantamount to basically having converted a Lich into an ally, and then selling them out so another Tenno can beat their head in with a brick and steal their stuff? Dude, not cool. Very not cool. Serious douchebaggery abounds.

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Whoa you mean, the people want less RNG?!  whaaaaaaaat?

 

Duplicate weapons should start after i've gotten them all once through. The amount of RNG i've encountered while only doing three liches, i'm already burnt out on this system and won't be doing it again until i see some rather major changes.

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19 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Greeting, Lich Hunters!

After the release of the Kuva Lich System in Update 26: The Old Blood, you have been providing us a lot of feedback on what you do and don’t like about hunting your personal Lich. While we have made many improvements over the past week, we have more to come. We are adding the following very soon, based on your feedback:

  • WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.
  • RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod. This gives them some additional use, as well as helping you clean up your inventory.
  • TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!
  • MORE TO COME - We are looking at other ways in which we can make the Kuva Lich system more rewarding and unique, although there is still a lot of internal discussion surrounding the ‘hows’ while maintaining the design intent. More on this as it is finalized.

Monitoring, tweaking and balancing this new process is an ongoing effort, and we rely on your feedback to let us know what you think. Please keep your feedback constructive and succinct, making sure you give suggestions to systems you do not like, while detailing why you do like a system, should that be your opinion.

The hunt continues!
 

please fix the bug that makes the liches unkillable, i have vanquished mine 15 times and he still comes back

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That's pretty beautifull. But the trade system will work only for those who got a duplicate ephemera or a duplicate high bonus roll.. I got my 3rd seer right now, with 29% bonus(lower than what I got before) , and I'm guessing that it will be impossible to trade because people with even a better stats will want to trade their contracts. So? Problem isnt solve, I'll still have to spent a bunch of hours knowing that I'll get nothing from it.

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19 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

How's this supposed to be enough? 13 weapons in total and you will only block 1 gun out of the whole pool its like slapping a tape to a fricking dam to stop the flood. Not to mention there will be even more weapons added in the future.

19 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod. This gives them some additional use, as well as helping you clean up your inventory.

this looks like an useful thing but just turning them to endo and farming mods from relics prob better. though, thanks for the alternative

19 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!

So, solo clans AKA GHOST clans are doomed? ah. cool. Big middle finger i get. I guess its useful to majority though.

I hope you guys expand the trading lich system otherwise its still going to be a problem.

19 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

MORE TO COME - We are looking at other ways in which we can make the Kuva Lich system more rewarding and unique, although there is still a lot of internal discussion surrounding the ‘hows’ while maintaining the design intent. More on this as it is finalized.

Stop holding the good stuff or nerfing. It only makes the player experience pathetic. You guys can start by giving us the half of the murmur that people are getting from testing their liches 

 

 

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19 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

That is a step in the right direction, however it is only one step toward a destination that's a thousand miles away. I hope this will be followed by other steps, or preferably by using a faster mode of transportation than just walking at a rate of one step every two weeks.

19 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

maintaining the design intent

That right there is the problem. The design intent, as far as I can tell, is not to make the content as fun as possible but rather as time-consuming as possible. Changing that design intent is what you should be focusing on.

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Any way to get rid of the effing Lich, that I got totally BY ACCIDENT without actually killng it??
 

I wasn't really interested in starting the Lich-thingie in the first place...

I did a normal mission...  And all of a sudden, I had killed a Larva...

It happened before DE added the 'failsafe' of 'mercy killing' the Larva...I killed it with, basically a stray shot...

And now the game is basically ruined for me...

Pls add a way to revert it!!!!

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I have an idea. 

Kuva Lich spawns with a weapon which has a set 30% dmg type bonus, but it can be upgraded by fusing duplicates and increasing that bonus up to 60%/75%/90%, each duplicate giving +3% every time you fuse, similarly to how arcanes are upgraded. This would give a reason to have duplicates, without any RNG around the dmg bonus, but also giving quite a bit of longevity to the whole system. Who cares if it takes long, how else are they gonna keep you playing? 

And on a more personal note, create more voice profiles for the liches. So far, it was calculating for females, and jovial for males. Make some more, like seductive, beastly, cynical and something like Saturn Six Wolf with all the growling and howling. 

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20 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!

That still means I have to slog through the lich grind even if I don't want the weapon though. What happened to just straight trading the lich pre-kill, or is that still planned?

Also when's the system going to revert back to murmur gain for all lich kill attempts? It's currently a selfish cesspool of degeneracy in public squads after that change, and desperately needs a fix, and I'm unsure how that wasn't mentioned in this post, especially since it's the biggest point of contention.

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20 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera.

I hope DE means the converted lich's become contracted targets for the receivers because this wording doesn't make that clear at all. Because if it's just trading converts you won't get their weapons. 

As for the no same weapon back to back it's still going to reward massive amount of dupes for anyone closing the gap on kuva weapons after the 6th or 7th. This means sure they won't finish the content in about 20 hours or less and call out "Content drought" something DE obviously dislikes as Megan said in TacticalPotato or was it Brozime's interview with her. But those same people can now just flee their "dead" otherwise inactive clan and join a new one for the expressed purpose of farming and trading lichs. 

The clan trading system is just going to be a roundabout way for these players (myself included) to get the weapons they want. A clan key rush is what, 10p? And that's if you even need the key someone could just invite you to clan then taxi you into said clan dojo. Trade chat could be looking at a future of H [Kuva Brakk convert] LF [kuva arch-gun] or [kuva Drakgoon] and people swapping clans left and right. 

it could even become a new riven like trading type too. "W [kuva drakgoon contract] 40p" People might bid war for the last kuva weapon they need. 

----------------------

Also none of these changes do anything about public players not testing their lich in missions preventing any other 3 lich's from spawning. 

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This is the one thing you need to do something about:WhjFrVn.jpg

Even when trying to do as many mercies as possible, revealing the last one takes way too much time unless you specifically waste even more time not leaving the missions and grinding for the murmurs. 140% for the last reveal is simply way too much and grindy, even if you just keep on failing on your RNG roll (like I do).

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#*!% yeah. I mean, I loved this update from the start, but there were some issues and you guys are working through them. It's awesome. Just want you guys to know there are some of us out here who are just purely enjoying it without all the nitpicky complaints. I love the grind, and I love killing Liches. :)

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1 hour ago, Tarine said:

Whoa you mean, the people want less RNG?!  whaaaaaaaat?

 

Duplicate weapons should start after i've gotten them all once through. The amount of RNG i've encountered while only doing three liches, i'm already burnt out on this system and won't be doing it again until i see some rather major changes.

They won't do that sadly. They like the idea of the last kuva weapon being a 1 in 13 chance to get. They think locking a gun behind content someones already done at least a dozen times (if they got super lucky with RNG) means that player won't legitimately be able to call out "content drought" as they don't even have all of the weapons yet. 

 

Though the clan trading thing will just mean trade chat might be bound to be "Have Kuva Dubba Stubba, LF Kuva ______ " spam in it. 

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20 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

MORE TO COME - We are looking at other ways in which we can make the Kuva Lich system more rewarding and unique, although there is still a lot of internal discussion surrounding the ‘hows’ while maintaining the design intent. More on this as it is finalized.

I'm gonna plug my thread in here again in the hopes some of these ideas will improve Liches. If nothing else, they should at least always control kuva siphon/flood missions and give them incentives to encourage players to rank them up rather than avoid them.

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56 minutes ago, 8faiNt said:

How's this supposed to be enough? 13 weapons in total and you will only block 1 gun out of the whole pool its like slapping a tape to a fricking dam to stop the flood. Not to mention there will be even more weapons added in the future.

That's an additional 0.6% Chance to get the weapon you want, so good. DE Nailed it.

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I usually never comment but for this time I just want them to hear us about the Lich system.

They did a good job already "only" one week after the release to change some interesting things like being able to drop a requiem relic from thralls which is good without being exaggerated.

The problem with the upcoming change, the RNG reduction, the most important one, is that it won't be enough. I don't even want to calculate how long this will still be to get all of the weapons being maxed at 60% elemental bonus. And even more if you want to change the elemental bonus..

The Kuva Lich system has to have something for us being able to max out that bonus.

I mean sometimes people are complaining about things I can't really understand, like the difficulty of the system ? Yes it is hard, i'm getting *sometimes* one shotted even with damage reduction. But it's largely doable.

Or even getting a specific weapon, it can be painful of course, but at least it's "only" 1/13 chance.. 

Getting the 60% though.. it's just impossible. My last 3 Kuva Lich held in order a Quartakk, a Kohm and an Ogris, the percentages were 54%, 55% and 55%. You don't know how frustrating this is to not have 60%. Now my next Lich is a Kohm with 26%. And I must admit, i'm in the situation where I don't really want to keep on going. Well my goal would be to get the new weapon Chakkurr, it looks awesome, I haven't found one for the moment, and I already spend a lot of time on Liches, but if a Lich finally hold it, well if the percentage is 25%, it will be really frustrating now.

I just hope they will implement a way to improve the percentage.

 

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21 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:
  • WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.
  • RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod. This gives them some additional use, as well as helping you clean up your inventory.
  • TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!

Let's see...

 

WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - This isn't doing anything, this is just a cheapskate "look we are doing something (even though it doesn't fix anything)" move. 1:13 goes to a 1:12 chance for any given weapon. Does not solve anything whatsoever. Let us  combine weapons of the same type for a guaranteed increase in status %. It doesn't have to be much, but let us do SOMETHING with bad % status rolls ffs. This? This ain't it chief.

RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - Ehh, I guess it's something. Better than selling it for a pitiful amount of endo at least, so good job on this point, I've got no complaints here.

TRADE YOUR LICH - So, are we slave traders now? "Here, I spare you and you can serve me, so I can sell you for another tenno to slaughter you." I mean, I get that it's dystopian crapsack future world, but damn. Lore weirdness aside, I really don't like this. I STILL have to go through the pain of beating the lich, If I get minimum roll bloody nobody will want to trade and maximum rolls will be traded for exorbitant amounts of plat on the side. This is bloody riven trading 2.0 and we really, REALLY, R E A L L Y do not need that. This doesn't make the system less rng-intensive or bullS#&$, it just adds and extra, exploitable step. And seriously, who is going to take, a say, 25/ Impact Kuva Karak lich from me? Most likely nobody.

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