Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™

[KreyLox]

Le 11/11/2019 à 23:28, [DE]Bear a dit :

Greeting, Lich Hunters!

After the release of the Kuva Lich System in Update 26: The Old Blood, you have been providing us a lot of feedback on what you do and don’t like about hunting your personal Lich. While we have made many improvements over the past week, we have more to come. We are adding the following very soon, based on your feedback:

• WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.
• RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod. This gives them some additional use, as well as helping you clean up your inventory.
• TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!
• MORE TO COME - We are looking at other ways in which we can make the Kuva Lich system more rewarding and unique, although there is still a lot of internal discussion surrounding the ‘hows’ while maintaining the design intent. More on this as it is finalized.

Monitoring, tweaking and balancing this new process is an ongoing effort, and we rely on your feedback to let us know what you think. Please keep your feedback constructive and succinct, making sure you give suggestions to systems you do not like, while detailing why you do like a system, should that be your opinion.

The hunt continues!
 

can you also release a "requiem mod defiled recover" system plz ?

[xxswatelitexx]

I feel like defeating a lich should givev larger rewards than just the players items back.

After all what happened to all the loot they gathered from other sources? 

 

Possible Solutions

Ignoring a Kuva Litch in a mission- considers it a loss and increases their power. The higher the power the better loot you gain when they are killed.

This means you may purposefully want them to get stronger in order to get better loot.

 

[DesertEagle1280]

6 hours ago, Joltyboi said:

think about it, all these easy and simple solutions people are coming up with have to have crossed SOMEONES mind at DE between them coming up with the idea of the liches and now, yet theyre talking about "internally discussing how to improve the lich system and move forward" and blah blah blah, not a single thing theyve come out with has been in the player feedback thread they made, so far the majority of what theyve hotfixed has made a few things better only to "FiX a BuG" and make things worse again,

This is why my comment about "improve the experience while maintaining the "design intent".  My interpretation of their actions thus far indicates to me there is a better than average probability that their design intent is not what I consider player-positive. 

I understand they want something that won't be a "we all ran the mission a week after release and we're done" - ie look at Umbra, that was months of work, and the "content" was over for most players in just a day or two, then we're back complaining about nothing to do.  

And honestly, my issue with the system as it is at the moment isn't that I can't get what I want immediately, I think the whole puzzle thing is fun (although I do think total thralls should be cut in half roughly, it's still a little much, especially for the 3rd murmur.  Maybe just make it 30/30/30 instead of 30/30/70).  My big issue right now is that the rng can roll 100% player-negative results, which doesn't feel good.  If I roll a weapon I already have and don't want another, or if I roll a weapon with a lower ele % instead of higher. Forcing me to waste time on a 100% non-reward is player-negative.  If I could combine an existing 30% and new 25% weapon and get a bonus to the initial 30% for my trouble, for example, that would be player-positive.  Now I don't have to feel like I'm forced to clear a lich for 0 reward. 

The fact that we're 6 patches in and they're leaving in the single most egregious offense of the whole patch - wasting a players time for 0 reward, makes me seriously question whether the design intent involved wasting our time. The first week made me hopeful, with 6 hotfixes in 5 days.  The relative silence this week is deafening - this thread of "changes soon(tm)" only slightly withstanding.

[Alexandre]

[Shaden73]

I hope they remove insta-death penalty from missing the rune combination or at least allow bleedout. Other issues I have with Liches is that they are horribly unbalanced. Take the toxic one, it can one shot most frames with an instant toxic aoe. Radiation, aside from teammates nuking each other( thats mostly others fault not the lich) theres the homing barely noticeable oberon smite. Very poorly telegraphed attacks ( charge and grab attacks ) - Have the enemy glow red or something when hes going to do something that you need to avoid at all costs.

The funniest thing i found with liches is that you can mind control them with nyx. ( this kinda needs to be fixed since you can stack the damage then release him from mind control for the damage to kick in)

[Fl_3]

How about this?

Defiled Requiem mods require a special mission to re-forge them in to a working mod. This could involve a sortie like mission into the depths of the Kuva Fortress, and like a sortie only be performed once a day. 

Equip the mod you want to re-forge into your parazon and stab a machine at the end of the mission before you extract and pick a mod to fix.

If this was a thing then players could at least bypass the RNG for one of their mods every 24 hours.

Hell, you could even make it a weekly mission like Maroo's treasure hunt, any improvement would be a good one.

Make it a defence mission, now we have an actual reason for defending the thingy in the middle of the Defence room at Kuva Fortress

[3thereal]

ETA on this? I would like to start playing again.

[Circle_of_Psi]

41 minutes ago, 3thereal said:

ETA on this? I would like to start playing again.

next year

[kapn655321]

On 2019-11-11 at 5:28 PM, [DE]Bear said:

RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted

Can this be added to relics?
All relics? 😉
Pretty please and thank ya kindly.

[kapn655321]

2 hours ago, FreeForAll110 said:

 

Feelin' like maybe should have typed out the whole, "slave," instead of 'slav..'.
XD Kinda.. kinda different there.

[CorerMaximus]

On 2019-11-11 at 2:28 PM, [DE]Bear said:

• TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!
•  

Holding off till this is introduced. As a veteran, I've pretty much told myself "NO" until pubs are viable again and I can throw my Lich away if they have the same weapon with the same stats I've had. The 3-4 hour process of ridding your Lich is too much, and Warframe is meant to be a co-op game, I refuse to play it solo.

[ACRavenXA26483]

On 2019-11-11 at 6:06 PM, RusFire1 said:

And as a question, when will Kuva Lich hunter collection will be separated so I can obtain new armor pieces without spending extra plat on useless stuff?

Because spending ~900 plat is WAY too much

This - I would love to have the color palletes from the bundle but don't want to fork over almost the equivalent of  $40+ dollars for them (with like 2 of them just being saturated versions of the palletes Fire and Ice). Can we possibly get them in a separated bundle or be able to buy them individually? I understand having them included in a bundle to help the buyer save money if they're gonna buy everything in the package, but shouldn't some of the contents be able to be purchased outside of the bundle if the buyer doesn't want everything in said bundle? Like how warframe bundle contents can be bought individually (the warframe, the weapons, the cosmetics, etc.). I know there are some cosmetics tied to bundles to help give incentives to purchase the bundle, but I hope later on down the line these palletes will be available by themselves for purchase. 

[Synpai]

 I will first note that I enjoy the Kuva Lich system overall, I WANT to engage with it; however, there are instances where I feel punished or unrewarded for my time that reduce the drive to do so.

I should also note that there is not much known about exactly how trading will work, so take the discussion lightly. I will always give it a try when it comes to fruition, so consider this more light concern over the system rather than direct critique.

1. RNG Reduction & FeelingRewardedMan

Spoiler

The suggested change to prevent back-to-back duplicate weapons is welcomed and an improvement, but sadly I feel it is a bit off the mark and marginal. In truth, it wasn't specifically getting multiple weapons back to back that left players feeling defeated, it was the general feeling of feeling unrewarded for the effort put into defeating a Lich.

"Rewarding" outcomes:
1) Getting Unique Weapons (Mastery)
2) Getting higher bonus values on weapons [you ENJOY] (Great, but this seems like the secondary goal. Something to aim for when you've gotten all the weapons)
3) Getting a unique ephemera

They are ranked in this order as, personally, I find ephemeras to be something you get while trying to accomplish the others, THEN they become a primary goal once the others are complete.

Converting a LIch, I find to be less rewarding than the other options. Players effectively go through the same amount of work for a temporary and uncontrollable ally. The other outcomes I feel attribute to a sense of progression, where this doesn't (unless you get LUCKY and get an ephemera).

Prior to learning that both options consumed mod charges I felt the converting a Lich option, intrinsically, felt like it should be the "opt out" option. Like the first time you get a word correctly on a Lich you would be presented with an option to continue decyphering to kill it to be rewarded or convert it to opt out of it.



I'm on my 7th Lich where I have 4 unique weapons and 3 duplicates, with the suggested changes from 1/13 to 1/12 probability my feelings of engaging in a LIch one finds to be "unrewarding" doesn't change.

 

Solution:
I feel having planets have a pool of the weapons to provide influence via weighted randomness would be way better in terms of feel.

I.e: Saturn progenitors can spawn with: Ogris, Kohm, Karak, Chakkhurr (The number depending on whether you can get the same back to back) This would at least give player some influence over what they're getting similar to:

A) How using stalker beacons to farm stalker drops feels better than just waiting for stalker to spawn. 
B) Desiring a specific resource and going to a planet where the resource is available.

I know the arguments against direct acquisition, meaning to allow players to force a larva-ling to have the exact weapon they're looking for, but I find trading to be a round about way accomplishing the same.

Converting liches could provide bonus starting progress on the next Lich, as if the lich is giving intel 😄

 

2. Trade Your Lich

Spoiler

This area poses a major concern as if the question was "How do we make trading work?" as opposed to "How do we make the Lich system work?"

Converting takes the same time as defeating a Kuva Lich, meaning someone progressed to the point to exterminate the Lich and instead decided to convert it (consuming mods) and give it to someone else by donating it to their clan War Room (presumably) so that someone else can go do it all over again............................ it doesn't seem very logical or an efficient use of time.

Solution:
Just donating the ephemera or weapon would be a more direct way to achieve such almost like a shared clan arsenel where you could recreate anyone's converted Lich weapons.

I think there's even an avenue for it to be a clan activity as originally previewed, so even if it's not of value to me, my clan can assist.

Regardless, it leaves the question on why players would engage with the system afterwards.

 

3. Progression and Replay-ability

Spoiler

• 5 Forma and Random % Bonuses

While I enjoy the > level 30 mechanic of Kuva Weapons, Forma-ing a weapon 5 times for mastery, especially if you dislike the weapon, is painful and removed the uniqueness of the Paracesis.

Equally random stat values present a situation where players feel unrewarded as they may get a duplicate weapon that also has a lower stat bonus. What do you do with this?

 

Solution:
Generated weapons should always start at the lowest value, duplicate weapons should raise the bonus through valence transfer. (There's also avenue and debate to use Kuva to upgrade and progress in the system)

Weapons should be mastered at level 30. Forma investment should be reserved for player choice should they be fond of a weapon and incentevized through other bonuses (such as increase in elemental bonus or other statistics) in tandem to the excess capacity for exilus mods. 

 

• Collection and Done:

Safe to say that in terms of Replay-ability this update, albiet incredibly fun leaves much to be desired once players collect each of the weapons/ephemeras. Some may not bother with ephemeras or trade to obtain ephemeras and highest bonus damage weapons.

Solution:
The only currently sustainable reward which is ironically the TITLE OF THE UPDATE, is Kuva (unless a player completely opts out of rivens).

The fact that players can never have enough Kuva can be critiqued within itself, but the fact remains for now, but I feel exterminating Liches and selling weapons could provide Kuva where players almost always have use of duplicate weapons even if they didn't like the weapon or have a maximum bonus or hunt Liches beyond collecting everything

 

• Achievement:

Ephemeras don't feel like a true accomplishment, they're much like rivens.
There's no working toward anything, only luck and this removes the desire from some players that see this and know they have no influence, so "why bother." (Not to mention uhhh....we don't even know what the chances are that Liches spawn with them)

Player A could theoretically kill 10 Liches and get 3 ephemeras
Player B could theoretically kill 30+ Liches and get 0 ephemeras

Solution:
I'd like to see this system more along the lines of the Halloween event where players can claim ephemeras after say killing/converting a certain amount of Liches. Could even provide a clan reward for converting certain Liches. There are so many variations and combinations that could work beyond pure RNG.

Equally ephemeras are a cosmetic, it almost seems odd to me that they aren't monetized in a sense.

You can have both: Ephemeras that show challenge completed vs Ephemeras available for purchase or participation



MISC
Make the other requiem modes feel as good as Kuva Survival! 😄 where players are achieving two goals in one mission!

 

 

 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

 I hope you will listen to CONSOLE PLAYER`S feedback when we get a chance to play it.

[eboomer]

Two things I think should also be addressed, beyond what's noted in the OP of this thread:

1. Some of the Lich attacks basically one shot me no matter how much effective HP I have.  This often despawns the lich, and feels like a dirty cheap shot to me, and excessively limits my frame choices.  The attack where they throw you will one shot me as 300%+ power strength fire Chroma with max Vex armor buffs and Elemental Ward active.  That's WAY too damaging in my opinion.  Inaros with all maxed out health and armor mods survives this at least.  The rad proc that instantly covers an area tens of meters in size basically one shots me no matter what, unless I'm using literal invincibility like Mesmer skin.  The result is that I feel forced to use a frame with invincibility, which narrows it down to Revenant, Nyx, Valkyr, or possibly Nidus.  From 40+ frames down to 3 or 4 valid choices.  Not ideal in my opinion.

2. When a player in your squad doesn't mercy their lich for one of various reasons, yours cannot spawn.  Some people go the entire mission without mercy'ing their Lich, at which point, depending on your progress, the thing for you to do is abort the mission, since you cannot do anything productive in the mission due to their behavior.  This is anti-cooperative behavior which breeds toxicity.  There needs to be some limit to the amount of time a player can just leave their lich around wasting their fellow tenno's time.  Maybe that's a timer, maybe it's that they despawn after two or three times of the health bar going to zero and it not being mercy'd.  Something is needed here though.  I also don't like how the increased thrall spawns when a lich is present incentivizes this behavior.  Also requiring requiem mods equipped in your Parazon to do a Lich mission would eliminate one reason players don't mercy their Lich.

[MrDangatang]

17 Kuva Liches:

-4 Twin Stubbas

-3 Tonkors

- 3 Ogrises

-2 Shildregs

0 Chakkhurr (I just want a Chakkhurr or the Archgun =/ ) but this... I had enough of Liches ..... i wait for the trading update ......

It pains my heart cause its a good boss but the RNG is just ridiculous imo. Please stop the suffering.

[inappropriatename5877]

On 2019-11-12 at 12:28 AM, [DE]Bear said:

4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod.

>"a random" Did you guys not take into consideration the over 20 pages of players blasting you for the rng of the mods? What part of "make us refill them with kuva" do you not understand? Getting a random mod is stupid, that could mean that we get a mod we already have fully charged, so nothing was changed. How about we refill them with kuva or at least make the Transmutation give us a random mod we DO NOT HAVE?

[Graavarg]

On 2019-11-11 at 11:47 PM, CrimsonPenguino said:

How about no. The nice part about this system was the fact that you had to actually do this stuff on your own and farm it yourself. With that being a thing, it just makes it another thing that can be monetized. Now people can save their liches that have crazy bonuses on their weapon and trade it to someone for a ton of plat. That is a horrible idea.

Yes it is. A really horrible idea.

It will also, once again, generate an endless stream of salt and tears. Almost everyone will have kuva weapons, the disposition on rivens for kuva weapons will drop through the floor (if they are honestly and transparently asessed), which will also (unfortunately) affect the non-kuva versions of the same weapons (on the other hand, why would anyone even use them anymore?). And the dispo changes in kuva rivens (bought with mucho plat) for the kuva weapons (also bought will mucho plat) will generate immense hair-pulling, tears and screaming, salt and negativity.

Just don't do this.

[NinjaKitsune56]

On 2019-11-11 at 5:31 PM, RobWasHere said:

Right after I dissolved them for 2k endo 😕

Eh, you'll get more of them over time.

[SilverBones]

We wanted to add some clarity: a Kuva Lich can only be traded once. A player can convert a Kuva Lich which then can be traded to another player as an active Kuva Lich for the recipient. If that Kuva Lich is converted again, it will not be eligible for trading. Should the traded Kuva Lich also have an Ephemera, then both the original Tenno and the receiving Tenno will earn the Ephemera upon defeat or conversion.

As for the Ephemera’s themselves, we are going to be doubling the drop chance of Ephemera for all newly generated Kuva Liches.

We still have more changes to make and discussions are still ongoing.
 

[Voltage]

6 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

As for the Ephemera’s themselves, we are going to be going to be doubling the drop chance of Ephemera for all newly generated Kuva Liches.

Maybe I'm asking too much, but what was the previous percentage, and what is the new one? This information has never been made known to the player, and I hope it's not something like "1% now 2%".

Also, can we trade with anyone or only clan members?

As always, thank you for the update on this matter. Sounds good!

[Caramello]

8 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

We wanted to add some clarity: a Kuva Lich can only be traded once. A player can convert a Kuva Lich which then can be traded to another player as an active Kuva Lich for the recipient. If that Kuva Lich is converted again, it will not be eligible for trading. Should the traded Kuva Lich also have an Ephemera, then both the original Tenno and the receiving Tenno will earn the Ephemera upon defeat or conversion.

As for the Ephemera’s themselves, we are going to be going to be doubling the drop chance of Ephemera for all newly generated Kuva Liches.

We still have more changes to make and discussions are still ongoing.
 

Thanks for riven market 2.0, everybody wanted that 🙂

[Hello]

So you're still sticking with the "converted only" being tradable? Meaning it's still wasted time for nothing. Might as well just kill the Lich and sell the weapon for 7500 credits or whatever we get. It's worth more that way and no dealing with a useless "companion" that doesn't really help in missions. Really hoping internal discussions can see both sides on how this solves nothing and you're not clouded by bias opinions for coming up with the gameplay. 

Not looking forward to seeing the rip off prices people put on these Lich's to trade for people to get a specific weapon/ephemera though.

[Skaleek]

14 minutes ago, [DE]Bear said:

We wanted to add some clarity: a Kuva Lich can only be traded once. A player can convert a Kuva Lich which then can be traded to another player as an active Kuva Lich for the recipient. If that Kuva Lich is converted again, it will not be eligible for trading. Should the traded Kuva Lich also have an Ephemera, then both the original Tenno and the receiving Tenno will earn the Ephemera upon defeat or conversion.

As for the Ephemera’s themselves, we are going to be going to be doubling the drop chance of Ephemera for all newly generated Kuva Liches.

We still have more changes to make and discussions are still ongoing.
 

Oh I see. So basically our current converted kuva liches will be eligible for this trading system after the patch? Or only liches converted after the patch goes live?

[Voltage]

59 minutes ago, Caramello said:

Thanks for riven market 2.0, everybody wanted that 🙂

The Riven system isn't a fair comparison here. There are only 3 RNG factors in Liches: The weapon, the % bonus, and a chance at an Ephemera.

The Riven system has: The weapon, the polarity, the first stat, the second stat, the third stat (if applicable), the negative (if applicable), the percentages on stat 1, the percentages on stat 2, the percentages on stat 3 (if applicable), and the percentages on the negative (if applicable).

Rivens can be traded multiple times, Bear just confirmed you may only trade a converted Lich once. Lich weapons are a finite subset of weapons. You can get a Riven Mod on basically every weapon aside from Arch-melee and Ability weapons.

People claiming this is Riven 2.0 are using hyperbole. Lich contracts will be expensive on release like all new things, but it will flatline at a point much lower than Riven Mods. The only thing that may be really expensive is Ephemeras, but I doubt that it will reach the heights Rivens have set.