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Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™

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9 hours ago, CuChulainnWD said:

Here is a question for you, seeing as we do not have all of the facts regarding Lich trading aside, given what was our Tenno Community spirit, why would anyone trade Liches for plat with clan mates in the first place?

Liches aren't like an Ignis Wraith blueprint; it's just not how it works. Everyone has different trading practices, and that aspect is hardly relevant in adding an option to trade contracts. Personally, my friends and clan mates get discounts, not free passes. They do the same for me and I see that as fair. If someone thinks I am being greedy, they will simply not trade with me. Simple as that. I don't quite understand what you mean by "Tenno Community spirit".

9 hours ago, CuChulainnWD said:

Second, why trade Liches at all, when 1) DE said they were supposed to be personal, and 2) If DE implemented any of our solutions to the Duplicate problem and upgrade weapons etc proposal, why trade Liches' when it defeats the purpose of it being personal, and a bit of a grind to earn those weapons in the first place? Just a thought.

Because every system in Warframe has a shortcut. It was stated from the beginning that contracts would be tradeable in some fashion in the Nemesis system. Dating back to when this was the "Kingpin System" well before Fortuna it was stated to be a clan activity or have others involved in your personal bosses. Trading makes the system more interesting as you can help out someone else with your good luck with a duplicate and also find yourself something you are missing.

Trading Liches is a good idea. How I trade has nothing to do with the positive impact it has on the game and improves the health of this system. You now have a better avenue with bad luck, and you can skip this content faster if you do not like it. Those that do like it now have another avenue to make Platinum....

I personally don't get why this has become a moral discussion when this thread is just highlighting the (positive) changes being made to this system. DE is putting in alot of work to listen to us and skipping Devstreams over it. They can't please everyone, but they are still working in the right direction here.

Edited by Voltage
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1 minute ago, Voltage said:

Attempting to make me feel guilty because I don't give away my items like an Ignis Wraith blueprint just isn't how it works. My friends and clan mates get discounts, not free passes. They do the same for me and I see that as fair. If someone thinks I am being greedy, they will simply not trade with me. Simple as that.

Because every system in Warframe has a shortcut. It was stated from the beginning that contracts would be tradeable in some fashion in the Nemesis system. Dating back to when this was the "Kingpin System" well before Fortuna it was stated to be a clan activity or have others involved in your personal bosses. Trading makes the system more interesting as you can help out someone else with your good luck with a duplicate and also find yourself something you are missing. Trading Liches is a good idea.

No attempts made mate, if you are feeling guilty, or figured that way that is on you. Either way. I do not agree that trading Liches is a good idea at all. To me it seems to be adding more discord and trouble than what it is worth. Especially given the current state of affairs the game mode is in right now. It is the last thing we need.

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On 2019-11-12 at 9:25 AM, BlackVortex said:

Is that true? I've read on forums people got it when they Vanquished a Lich who had one equipped

I am reading the same thing on the wiki

Can you show me any evidence of what you claimed?

I converted one myself and got the ephemera.

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1 minute ago, CuChulainnWD said:

I do not agree that trading Liches is a good idea at all. To me it seems to be adding more discord and trouble than what it is worth. Especially given the current state of affairs the game mode is in right now. It is the last thing we need.

No matter what DE does to this game, you will always have different vocal groups of people being upset for a number of reasons. The more Platinum being moved around, the healthier the economy is and thus, I feel this is a spectacular idea.

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1 minute ago, Voltage said:

No matter what DE does to this game, you will always have different vocal groups of people being upset for a number of reasons. The more Platinum being moved around, the healthier the economy is and thus, I feel this is a spectacular idea.

Oh I do not disagree, a healthy economy is a good thing. However not before fixing the major glaring problems with the system upon which the economy is to exploit. Otherwise we are all just suckers.

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18 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

Oh I do not disagree, a healthy economy is a good thing. However not before fixing the major glaring problems with the system upon which the economy is to exploit. Otherwise we are all just suckers.

You should get used to content being undermined and easier later than the initial release and feeling like the time you spent wasn't respected often. It has happened for ages in this game.

I am going to describe you the glaring problem with Liches.

The problem with content going forward is the playerbase. DE gets constant questions about endgame, content, and things to do. This game is built on grind but for some reason it's taboo to grind anymore. Plains of Eidolon had a proper progression system with real depth and meaning to fishing, mining, Eidolon Hunting, Bounties, and Plague Star. Plains was criticized for being too grindy and now it follows the Fortuna model with no depth, mining and fishing are a joke with Tusk Thumpers, and only the Quills remain to have progression. I used that example because Plains of Eidolon did have some RNG, but 95% of it was pure time investment and progression.

The vocal majority on Reddit and the Forums do not want grind at all. RNG is the common enemy in Liches, but there is equal outrage when something just takes a long time. Just look at how easy Focus farming is now. Look at Plains of Eidolon, look at Focus, look at Nightwave, look at Profit-Taker vs Exploiter Orb, the list goes on. Whenever we get something that takes a while through RNG based grind, DE is met with "my luck is terrible and this sucks" from group A. Ok, so DE makes content that isn't RNG oriented and just takes weeks if not months to finish. DE is then met with "I don't have time to do X" from group B. DE then makes content easy and not take too much time investment. Now you have angered group C who complains of content drought. This cycle is repeating itself. How do I know this cycle repeats itself? I commented on it in March 4th of this year in regards to Nightwave becoming trivial.

How does this relate back to the original topic of trading Lich contracts? Trading allows player A who hates RNG to bypass it, it allows player B to skip a large time investment/progression system, and it allows player C to actually progress the system. They are making changes past trading as well to try and appeal to the people who don't fit into my three groups. The gamemode will improve, but Trading is a positive impact. Trading in my eyes is the best solution DE can possibly add to please the "I hate grind" and the "I don't have anything to do" crowds simultaneously.

Edited by Voltage
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1 minute ago, Voltage said:

You should get used to content being undermined and easier later than the initial release and feeling like the time you spent wasn't respected often. It has happened for ages in this game.

I am going to describe you the glaring problem with Liches.

The problem with content going forward is the playerbase. DE gets constant questions about endgame, content, and things to do. This game is built on grind but for some reason it's taboo to grind anymore. Plains of Eidolon had a proper progression system with real depth and meaning to fishing, mining, Eidolon Hunting, Bounties, and Plague Star. Plains was criticized for being too grindy and now it follows the Fortuna model with no depth, mining and fishing are a joke with Tusk Thumpers, and only the Quills remain to have progression. I used that example because Plains of Eidolon did have some RNG, but 95% of it was pure time investment and progression.

The vocal majority on Reddit and the Forums do not want grind at all. RNG is the common enemy in Liches, but there is equal outrage when something just takes a long time. Just look at how easy Focus farming is now. Look at Plains of Eidolon, look at Focus, look at Nightwave, look at Profit-Taker vs Exploiter Orb, the list goes on. Whenever we get something that takes a while through RNG based grind, DE is met with "my luck is terrible and this sucks" from group A. Ok, so DE makes content that isn't RNG oriented and just takes weeks if not months to finish. DE is then met with "I don't have time to do X" from group B. DE then makes content easy and not take too much time investment. Now you have angered group C who complains of content drought. This cycle is repeating itself. How do I know this cycle repeats itself? I commented on it in March 4th of this year in regards to Nightwave becoming trivial:

How does this relate around trading Liches? Trading allows player A who hates RNG to bypass it, it allows player B to skip a large time investment/progression system, and it allows player C to actually play the game. Trading to me is the best solution DE can make to pleasing the "I hate grind" and the "I don't have anything to do" crowd at the same time.

I don't mind a bit of grind either. However there needs to be a balance. The trading solution to me is a cop out for what could be a sustainable game system based on many of the brilliant suggestions made that would both make the grind more bearable whilst maintaining the entertainment and replay value viable. Your solution "alone" is a band aid that does not fix the glaring issues that could be made and most likely make the majority of players content. You're preaching to the choir mate.

Been around DE and their methods as long as you. It took me 2 years to complete the focus school, only a couple months after they drastically increased our caps and methods of attaining. So yeah I know what you mean, but there are better ways to fix problems than hiding them behind band aids. How about addressing the issues with good solutions first, then add the money in when it all works? Just this ONCE let DE show us they can do it right and to completion, polished and all. Even though we get to see the sausage as it is being made.

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I would like my Kuva Lich to stay stay for longer and have a summoning item to use.

And I would like all Lich's to learn the meaning of friendly fire so mine or my team mates Lich stop breaking my back every time I accidently shoot them.

Ultimately using a Lich like a companion would be the ultimate.

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@[DE]Bear can we get the kuva lich to drop their custom head warframe pauldron aswell as the ephemera? i would love for my warframe to stroke their ego by wearing a pauldron with their helmet on it              

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@[DE]Bear can we get the kuva lich to drop their custom head warframe pauldron aswell as the ephemera? i would love for my warframe to stroke their ego by wearing a pauldron with their helmet on it              

And/or as a ship decoration.

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ok I like many of these changes, but I'm a little miffed on something still.

So I roll into a mission, so does my lich. Lich swings at me with a left, I catch the left and put the lich in the ER, bleeding from the lip, the queen can't even recognize it anymore. I go into the hospital all kill bill style to finish the job right? then right as im about to give this lich a sweet goodbye Bill calls and asks "Yo whats the magic word!?" I guess Rumpelstiltskin" then instantly die.

why do we /need/ to die if we don't have the proper word combination? Why does the lich get a free rank up? why is it that say if I say "I refuse to rank up my lich" a public group then gets punished because there is no other way to get rid of it.

TL;DR: The interaction with the lich is too limited, we need a way to make them run off without ranking them up. its all good and all if we can rank them up fast and kill them when they are thicc Bopp Bipp's but make it a choice.

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Ah, there's the trading. 

Unless I'm grossly misreading how this is going to play out, welcome rivens 2.0.

Sad.

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Not having the same weapon twice in a row is definitely a good idea but tbh i got 4 Ogris out of 10 weapons and it's almost as frustrating. Truth is that not having the weapon we want or care about is perhaps more an issue than getting the same over and over. As i already mentioned, perhaps you should work on a new way to improve Kuva weapons with similar versions cause i don't see many people complaining about getting 4 Kohm in a row - But getting 4 Kohms in a row with lower and lower damage bonus IS also frustrating.

Trading Kuva weapons won't solve that for sure, it won't help with the whole time consuming event not being rewarding enough and still really too much based upon RNG.

What would i want ? Something useful to do with Kuva weapons i don't care about (especially on the long run) and be sure the whole riven mafia won't spoil this new Kuva trading with tons of plat, once again.

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1) Vanquished / converted sorting in Lich history tab?
2) It's hard to understand how much bonus you currently have on weapon if used Valence Transference to get higher bonus.
3) When linking mod config of Kuva Lich weapons in chat stats have lower dmg somehow and have not corrent riven dispo.
4) Revenant can stun-lock Lich with his Mesmer skin.
5) Converted Liches do no dmg at all when helping you.
6) Does converted will have same kill-words when traded?
7) Why Kuva Quartakk don't have 0,5 punch thro on auto fire mode?
8) Mods for range on beam weapons as exilus slot?
9) More mods from conclave to usual gameplay? For example, Rubico have Ambush Optics that would fit exilus slot perfectly.

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Quote

- If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!

I think trading them BEFORE killing them, is far better.

It's not like we can have 2 liches at same time, so wouldn't be big problem.

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4 hours ago, Voltage said:

I personally don't get why this has become a moral discussion when this thread is just highlighting the (positive) changes being made to this system. DE is putting in alot of work to listen to use and skipping Devstreams over it. They can't please everyone, but they are still working in the right direction here.

That is the crux of the matter though. Are they really listening to us? 2 weeks of fantastic feed back. 0 Feed back from them. Yeah I do not buy the skip the devstream excuse anymore. Are they working in the right direction? The Workshop does not suggest as much. It seems more like the bear minimum, whilst dragging their feed, whilst not telling us what is going on.

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I really don’t like the idea of trading converted Liches, are they supposed to be friends and allies, or slaves? People on the subreddit has compared it to contracting your slave off to be hunted. I don’t like that at all, and I’m sitting on a few converted Liches with decent weapon rolls.

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Basically DE wants us to play through their content no matter what. So even if we get duplicates, we have to play through it to get them converted, then trade with other players and other players have to play through it again to get the reward.

Ok, the last part seems fair, because I will have to earn the guaranteed reward by playing through it.

But as for players who already has duplicates, why do they want to play through it again? This is the reason why so many are complaining about this Lich system.

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Heya DE, could we have the problem of duplicate Kuva weapons with lower bonus percentages than owned ones get looked at? We can't valance them and even with Lich trading incoming its unlikely that anyone would be willing to trade for the a lower bonus % weapon. 

 

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On 2019-11-12 at 5:28 AM, [DE]Bear said:
  • WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

i don't think this is a good idea since it gonna fall to this situation

1st lich will give me a twin stubba.

2nd lich will give me Karak. (not duplicate to the first lich)

3rd Lich...what gonna stop the RNG from giving me another twin stubba?

4th lich...again...what stopping the RNG from giving me another Karak?

just give us 12 weapons rotation, if you already gain 5 out of 12 Kuva weapons then 5 of those weapons the player has obtained will temporarily be removed from the Loot pools until a player finally got all 12 weapons in their collections then we can finally get RNG weapons for higher stats roll or elementals. 

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11 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

We wanted to add some clarity: a Kuva Lich can only be traded once. A player can convert a Kuva Lich which then can be traded to another player as an active Kuva Lich for the recipient. If that Kuva Lich is converted again, it will not be eligible for trading. Should the traded Kuva Lich also have an Ephemera, then both the original Tenno and the receiving Tenno will earn the Ephemera upon defeat or conversion.

As for the Ephemera’s themselves, we are going to be doubling the drop chance of Ephemera for all newly generated Kuva Liches.

We still have more changes to make and discussions are still ongoing.
 

Shouldn't that you can't trade a traded Lich mean that you automatically Vanquish it without option to Convert?

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10 hours ago, Voltage said:

People claiming this is Riven 2.0 are using hyperbole. Lich contracts will be expensive on release like all new things, but it will flatline at a point much lower than Riven Mods. The only thing that may be really expensive is Ephemeras, but I doubt that it will reach the heights Rivens have set.

They are going to be worse than rivens because they can't be rerolled and can only be traded once. They probably won't reach the insane prices of a perfect riven for a meta weapon but the prices for top 5% kuva weapons are still going to be ridiculous since you have to choose to give up on getting a weapon for yourself to sell one. They really need to add a way to upgrade kuva weapons if they are going to let people trade for them or paying a mountain of plat is going to be the only reasonable way to get a good one.

 

Ephemeras are definitely going to be really expensive and stay that way forever since they are they are some of the best ones and can be used on anything.

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11 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

We wanted to add some clarity: a Kuva Lich can only be traded once. A player can convert a Kuva Lich which then can be traded to another player as an active Kuva Lich for the recipient. If that Kuva Lich is converted again, it will not be eligible for trading. Should the traded Kuva Lich also have an Ephemera, then both the original Tenno and the receiving Tenno will earn the Ephemera upon defeat or conversion.

As for the Ephemera’s themselves, we are going to be doubling the drop chance of Ephemera for all newly generated Kuva Liches.

We still have more changes to make and discussions are still ongoing.
 

Care to clarify some more? If a person that traded for a specific lich but already has a current active lich, will the traded one overwrite the current one? Meaning they don't have to do it? 

Maybe soon we will have people rolling random liches, if they don't like it, they trade for one they want to do which overwrites the one they didn't. Then they can keep repeating this and only doing liches they want to do. Awesome, but at what cost....

I guess this IS actually the system players where hoping for to not have to do the lich they wanted to skip. Except in a super convoluted way in a p2w kind of way.

Edited by Xazur

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30 minutes ago, ZzVinniezZ said:

i don't think this is a good idea since it gonna fall to this situation

1st lich will give me a twin stubba.

2nd lich will give me Karak. (not duplicate to the first lich)

3rd Lich...what gonna stop the RNG from giving me another twin stubba?

4th lich...again...what stopping the RNG from giving me another Karak?

just give us 12 weapons rotation, if you already gain 5 out of 12 Kuva weapons then 5 of those weapons the player has obtained will temporarily be removed from the Loot pools until a player finally got all 12 weapons in their collections then we can finally get RNG weapons for higher stats roll or elementals. 

This is why someone posted this on page 3:

On 2019-11-12 at 12:31 AM, Buff00n said:

 

This sounds good, but it actually makes little difference in the average number of Liches you have to go through to get all the weapons at least once.

Here's what the distribution looks like before, allowing consecutive repeats:

dXTj323.png

Here's what it looks like afterwards, not allowing repeats:

2u4FfGr.png

The average has gone from 41 down to 38, with the 90th percentile going down from 61 to 56.  This is more of an emotional improvement than a numeric one, but in time you can expect the complaints about repeat rewards to be replaced with complaints about bouncing back and forth between the same two rewards.

The more Kuva weapons (and liches when they come to infested and corpus) we get, the less this change impacts the statistics.

In all fairness to DE: what it does do, is more than double the probability to get all weapons in a perfect unique way (however it increase from 0.00% to 0.01% or so, ~200 occurrences vs ~500 occurrences in 10mil runs, so you know, if you like your chances in lotteries..)..

 

With the plans to go for liches from the other main factions too, I'm seriously hoping we will get tokens rather than the weapons. Make them untradeable sure, keep the lich trading system DE is planning for now, but the weapons, I would prefer a token system, which could even define the damage bonus and damage type already, but not the weapon type. Or, if you have a kuva lich token with 42% heat damage bonus for a kuva tonkor, if you use that token to get another weapon you get a random damage % roll with a max to token percentage (in this case 42%) in heat, I'd be fine with that: that lowers the pure collector part of things to 13 runs with a very likely set of badly rolled damage percentages. Collectors happy. If you want better percentages, you can start farming liches up and have a lot of content to play through. DE and min/max-ers and traders happy.

Really feels like a win-win-win to me, the only downside is that people who only want the full collection mastered (who still spend 65 forma mind you) are through the content faster.. but aren't these the kind of people who prefer to play like this anyway? And having them be happy with the content and not be passionately critical to new/potential players, isn't that a win too?

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People keep talking about slavery, if that's a problem, then what DE can do is allow us to sell a contract to kill the lich. Ideally, you would have 3 choices after you've used the 3 words: Hold down A to convert him into an ally, Hold down D to vanquish and hold down W to convert him into a snitch which implies that we have all the data about him without him becoming an ally. At the time of selling the contract, it will be clear that he has become a target because he betrayed us or he failed to get useful information, etc. the reason may vary. In this way, there is no slavery, there is more interaction with the system and an interesting trading feature.

There's going to be a wide market: A) Buying liches just for the weapon, bonus damage won't matter. B) Specific weapons with very high damage bonus, C) Ephemeras, where weapon or bonus damage won't matter and D) Ephemeras + weapon with high bonus damage. Some people like farming the liches so it's going to be a good experience for them. Those who doesn't like it, only have to do it a few times to get what they need and then they can ignore the whole mechanic forever. Prices won't be as high as rivens because it's way more difficult to get a perfect riven than a good damage roll in a weapon. You don't even need to get 60% bonus damage, anything between 50%-55% is going to be great and there are going to plenty of these for sale. Just like the rivens, pay more than usual for a crazy good roll or just pay a significant lower amount of platinum for one that will get the job done too.  
 

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