Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™

[MPonder]

14 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

We wanted to add some clarity: a Kuva Lich can only be traded once. A player can convert a Kuva Lich which then can be traded to another player as an active Kuva Lich for the recipient. If that Kuva Lich is converted again, it will not be eligible for trading. Should the traded Kuva Lich also have an Ephemera, then both the original Tenno and the receiving Tenno will earn the Ephemera upon defeat or conversion.

As for the Ephemera’s themselves, we are going to be doubling the drop chance of Ephemera for all newly generated Kuva Liches.

We still have more changes to make and discussions are still ongoing.
 

If it is a one "time only", I'm OK with it, I'm OK with a item that is achievable in a "reasonble" price in a market, but never, ever, think about removing the limit or increase it.  The most problem with Riven's market are resellers and their automate tools, getting all good Rivens faster and reselling them for much higher price.

1 Trade = No resellers.

But again

1- what you guys gonna do about the duplicates we have?

2- About incentivize people to do the system and try to get the weapons themselves instead of just buying it?

3- Doing Lichs is pretty boring, sorry. Do something about it.

You need to give people a reason to do the system, so the market always have a good amount of people selling the weapons, so the price don't go UP to much, because there will be a lot of offers.

For 1, I'd recommend a salvage system = Salvage weapons for Kuva and Riven Shards, you know, connecting the systems Kuva - Weapons - Rivens - Lichs more. For 2, plz, it is a #*!%ing long ass time to kill/convert a lich, make a pretty damn good salvage reward quantity. Could also allow to recover forma/potato from salvaged weapon, but only for Kuva weapons.

[bl1te]

13 часов назад, [DE]Bear сказал:

As for the Ephemera’s themselves, we are going to be doubling the drop chance of Ephemera for all newly generated Kuva Liches.

Could someone explain it better, please? I'm sometimes bad at English.

What does "for all newly generated" mean? Isn't there already a guaranteed drop of ephemera from Lich if he has one? How can you double 0% (= Lich does not have ephemera) or 100% (= Lich has ephemera)?

Or does this mean that our future Liches will have ×2 probability to have an ephemera on it with 100% probability to drop after we convert/vanquish it?

[MPonder]

1 minute ago, bl1te said:

Could someone explain it better, please? I'm sometimes bad at English.

What does "for all newly generated" mean? Isn't there already a guaranteed drop of ephemera from Lich if he has one?

Or do you mean that our future Liches will have ×2 chance to have an ephemera on it?

After the patch that they will introduce this stuff, the drop chance of ephemeras with me 2x higher from "new lichs" you create..

[bl1te]

2 минуты назад, MPonder сказал:

After the patch that they will introduce this stuff, the drop chance of ephemeras with me 2x higher from "new lichs" you create..

Okay, I hope it's true. Thank you.

I just saw these news in my russian social network and the translation was confusing there XD

[EtherealShigure]

13 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

We wanted to add some clarity: a Kuva Lich can only be traded once. A player can convert a Kuva Lich which then can be traded to another player as an active Kuva Lich for the recipient. If that Kuva Lich is converted again, it will not be eligible for trading. Should the traded Kuva Lich also have an Ephemera, then both the original Tenno and the receiving Tenno will earn the Ephemera upon defeat or conversion.

As for the Ephemera’s themselves, we are going to be doubling the drop chance of Ephemera for all newly generated Kuva Liches.

We still have more changes to make and discussions are still ongoing.
 

 Holy smokes. doubling the ephemera chances. sitting at 9 liches total and 0 have showed up, a big change 🙂 happy with that.

[MPonder]

I couldn't care less about ephemeras.

[BlackVortex]

9 hours ago, Emperrier said:

I converted one myself and got the ephemera.

on the wiki it says whether you convert or vanquish doesn't matter, as long as an ephemera spawned on the lich you will get it guaranteed

[b4timert]

Can we please have the ephemera generate chance go up to 20-30%. Or if its unreasonably high can they be linked to some in game mechanic, something like 1 every 10 liches. so it will take 70 liches to get them all. 70 is a high amount and will give us a goal to reach. 70 liches will take something like 80-250 hours of gameplay anyay.

it should also lower the cost of them in the market when people start trading their ephemera's for plat. 

it will also make people feel less bad about getting a bad lich(weapon) since they are working for a medium length goal of a ephemera. You will also go wow this guy killed 10+ liches

besides ephemera on liches look cool and if have only ever seen 1 lich with one after 40 hours of gameplay

added:Someone in my clan suggested ranking up a lich should have a chance to give it a ephemera

[BlackVortex]

33 minutes ago, b4timert said:

Can we please have the ephemera generate chance go up to 20-30%. Or if its unreasonably high can they be linked to some in game mechanic, something like 1 every 10 liches. so it will take 70 liches to get them all. 70 is a high amount and will give us a goal to reach. 70 liches will take something like 80-250 hours of gameplay anyay.

please no, then everyone will be running around with the same Ephemera's and the uniqueness of owning one will be lost

[b4timert]

7 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

please no, then everyone will be running around with the same Ephemera's and the uniqueness of owning one will be lost

its hardly unique by now since almost everyone has ephemera by now. they are not unique already. we got one at tennocon  you get one for free when you enable trading you got one for halloween event. You could even buy one in a prime bundle and random ones been added to various game modes. Exploiter orbs drop chance is 10% and its a 15 min fight. you can even buy one with vitus essence.

[BlackVortex]

5 minutes ago, b4timert said:

its hardly unique by now since almost everyone has ephemera by now. they are not unique already. we got one at tennocon  you get one for free when you enable trading you got one for halloween event. You could even buy one in a prime bundle and random ones been added to various game modes. Exploiter orbs drop chance is 10% and its a 15 min fight. you can even buy one with vitus essence.

you do realize I'm talking about one type of ephemera and not ephemeras in general.

sure everyone owns the halloween one, but not everyone owns Vengeful Trickster which makes it a rare item to wear.

[Emperrier]

58 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

on the wiki it says whether you convert or vanquish doesn't matter, as long as an ephemera spawned on the lich you will get it guaranteed

Yes, it does say that. What's your point? 

[kyori]

15 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

We still have more changes to make and discussions are still ongoing.

Please make Lich always appear in mission after 3 hints are gathered. I see no reason why we must waste time to make Lich meter to rise again in order for them to appear.

[EvanGallaway]

i'm a bit baffled by these changes, because I think they're aiming to go around the obstacle rather than overcoming it. 

Weapon RNG reduction: it's fine, but I think a 3 Weapons rotation would be better: that way players which want to farm a particular weapon have more chances, whilst players seeking more variety have at least 3 unique drops. 

Requiem Recycle: this is a good change. I'm still a fan of the whole "Thralls dropping requiem mods" thing, but this is a good thing anyway. 

Lich Trading: this... I don't know, doesn't feel like anything good at all because, simply put, trivializes the whole concept. The Lich is our personal nemesis, we work hard to vanquish them through murmur farming and fighting them directly (even multiple times), and triggering one is fairly easy. Even if Liches are a one time trade thing, it's still one trade more than necessary. Apart from the fact that Tenno become slave traders and in a way they'd become even worse than Nef Anyo, it devoids the entire concept of its meaning. If something needs to be traded, I think trading weapons would be a better choice, since to the victor go the spoils, and it's their own right doing anything they want with them. But the Lich? A living thing we decided to keep alive, which comes to help us and assist us in our neverending war to keep the System's balance?

I know it's just a game and I'm being too much  of a "romantic", but lore is important.

Spoiler

We fought the Queens just to save Teshin from slavery, only to become the Queens ourselves? 

If the "board" idea is still in the works, I think it would be better to just "leave" our Liches there. I understand there would be the fear of players filling a board with unwanted Liches, but there would be a lot of ways to fix that problem, and In general I think it would be a lot easier. 

 

I don't know, I love the Kuva Lich mechanic, and since they stopped taxing Requiem Relics their presence has become interesting and tolerable. There are other issues in the system that need to be addressed, Rebecca and Megan stated so in the Prime Time also, so we know they're actually trying to fix them. 

Lich ignoring issue: the most blatant problem at the moment. Liches must be a threat, something you don't want sticking around too much in your missions. Either they reinforce enemies around them with buffs (maybe depending on their progenitor, e.g. buffing their armor or giving elemental damage to enemies), or get stronger and stronger the longer they're kept on purpose in the mission. Maybe (I know this is pure madness but still) instantly getting to the fifth level if they keep being ignored until the end of the mission. 

Murmurs: not an issue anymore, but could use some tweaks. Maybe lowering a bit more the third circle could be a good thing? Nothing drastic, maybe from 70 to 60 or 55? It'd be fun if later, when the first issues of this mechanic get fixed, we actually get particular missions in order to find the correct Requiem. 

Weapon stats: someone above mentioned an interesting idea - using duplicates to level up a Kuva Weapon up to a 60% bonus. I think it would be a fine addition and would actually solve the duplicate issue almost entirely. 

Weapon disposing: It would be nice having a max reroll worth of Kuva if we dispose of a Kuva Weapon. The average time to gather the same amount of Kuva could be between 2-3 hours or such, doing Survivals, Disruptions or Floods/Syphons. Since Lich Hunts take even more time, a max reroll worth of Kuva would be a fine extra reward, I think. 

These are some of the things I though about, and maybe it isn't even the right topic to talk about it, I don't know exactly. Just wanted to share my thoughts. 

[b4timert]

7 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

you do realize I'm talking about one type of ephemera and not ephemeras in general.

sure everyone owns the halloween one, but not everyone owns Vengeful Trickster which makes it a rare item to wear.

I won't even use vengeful trickster if i owned it(maybe on loki but i prefer the stalker one on him) and i know your using it as a example.I like the electric one more the even the impact one looks better than trickster. Different people use have different cosmetic likes/dislikes and so you wont see the same one everywhere. In all honesty at this point i don't even notice people wearing ephemera, only ones i notice is the bat and spore ones rest is unnoticeable for me but i do look long enough at liches to see it wearing one since i have to look at them for a while to kill them. I don't even put ephemera on all my frames anymore. All that i care about is that I can see it on my frame since I look for more at my frame than other peoples frames.

Im all for people wearing what they want to look good and i dont care if someone wear one i own there is so many by now anyway im sure people wont use the same one. There was even debate in my clan about what one of the new ephemera looks the best. Someone in my clan killed 19 to get his 1st and if have seen someone say he killed 40+ and still dont own one.

[chaotea]

15 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

As for the Ephemera’s themselves, we are going to be doubling the drop chance of Ephemera for all newly generated Kuva Liches.

Will the ephemeras have the 'not twice in a row' protection like weapons. Im asking for a friend. Because Ive not got one yet.

[Ampoth]

2 hours ago, ciTiger said:

If they stand by "capturing" the Lich before you can trade It they haven't beed reading the community feedback at all, even partner streamers are getting upset.

DE you're not doing your homework... I hope I'm wrong.

They clearly are resistant to reducing this particular grind, since it's one of the most obvious differences between what we were sold and what was delivered. And since the Dev Workshop seems to consist of only weak waffling changes that barely address any of the systems issues it's safe to bet we're going to be stuck with this poorly designed system for a while.

[BlackVortex]

44 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Will the ephemeras have the 'not twice in a row' protection like weapons. Im asking for a friend. Because Ive not got one yet.

AFAIK Ephemera's spawn on your element type, so you can control that

[BlackVortex]

51 minutes ago, b4timert said:

I won't even use vengeful trickster if i owned it(maybe on loki but i prefer the stalker one on him) and i know your using it as a example.I like the electric one more the even the impact one looks better than trickster. Different people use have different cosmetic likes/dislikes and so you wont see the same one everywhere. In all honesty at this point i don't even notice people wearing ephemera, only ones i notice is the bat and spore ones rest is unnoticeable for me but i do look long enough at liches to see it wearing one since i have to look at them for a while to kill them. I don't even put ephemera on all my frames anymore. All that i care about is that I can see it on my frame since I look for more at my frame than other peoples frames.

Im all for people wearing what they want to look good and i dont care if someone wear one i own there is so many by now anyway im sure people wont use the same one. There was even debate in my clan about what one of the new ephemera looks the best. Someone in my clan killed 19 to get his 1st and if have seen someone say he killed 40+ and still dont own one.

although I hate RNG, you propose that every 5 liches you get an Ephemera, to me this is too much

it means that most casual players will be running around with these Ephemera's

I don't mind if other people have them, but I do feel you actually have to play a longer time to get them

especially since people will be doing tons of liches for the sake of better stats/ new weapons

[BlackVortex]

1 hour ago, Emperrier said:

Yes, it does say that. What's your point? 

in your previous post you said:

On 2019-11-12 at 3:12 PM, Emperrier said:

What do you think the odds are that DE realizes that this means you can farm the same Ephemera infinitely once you roll a Lich that has one? They drop on conversion. Convert a Lich with an Ephemera and sell it to someone else who does the same and then sells it to somebody else. 

it looked like you were saying that they dropped exclusively on conversion and not on vanquish.

if you didn't mean that, my mistake

[DesertEagle1280]

@[DE]Bear

Hopefully your internal discussions are addressing the concept of player-positive vs player-negative rewards.  Without a way to guarantee progress, for example merging weapons to boost %, or somehow behind the scenes forcing future drops to never be lower than the same weapon/ele combo we already have, the change to get "rewards" that we have to grind for, that also cost us requiem uses to unlock is absolutely unacceptable.  Again, I know I sound like a broken record but I propose the following:

Maybe in addition, valence transfer can up the ele % - that would make getting repeat crap rolls more stomachable - eg get 25% and 27% seers, the combined form keeps the forma/exilus progress, and goes to 35% ele instead of 25 or 27, that way getting duplicates that are equally crap (or maybe even worse variants) isn't so much of a waste of player time. Then say you get another 28% seer, combine that, and your "master" weapon goes to 40%, etc.  This would allow player agency to improve their weapon mitigating some of the RNG frustration, keep duplicate liches relevant longer giving the whole system longevity, and maintain the covert/kill decision relevancy for longer as well.

Otherwise, even with murmurs going faster, it's hard to feel good about grinding for a turd when you get low % elemental rolls.

Also, what if we also took a maxed disposition weapon out of the spawn rotation?  Like say you get 5 cold seers, by combining them you wind up working up to a 60% or whatever max is cold seer.  From that point on, you have a 0% chance to spawn a lich with a cold seer (could still proc rad seer or toxic, etc by choosing to use a different frame for that element).  In terms of lore, maybe say the lich knows through kuva-magic of it's brethrens failure to off you with the cold seer, so they refuse to try again with a weapon that has proven a failure.

This would encourage people to keep playing even when they keep getting the same, because not only will it always make their existing one better (whether higher or lower % roll), but it also gives a finite amount of repetition where by completing the weapon you guarantee other drops. Added to my intial suggestion of a guaranteed improvement to ele % it means every lich would guarantee progress in some way - either improving a weapon you have, or spawning a weapon you don't. 

I genuinely sympathize with your needs to balance longevity, replayability, etc - and I don't envy y'all the job you do trying to balance all this.  However, I think the heart of the matter is that the only way this system will work, long term, is that it must be perceived by players as being player-positive.  Removing the possibility to get 100% unrewards is purely and simply player negative.  If I have a 34% cold seer, and my next lich is a 28% cold seer - what is supposed to make me want to grind for that?  Trying to trade it hoping that someone wants such a bad roll?  That's really the only thing I can do with it - vanquishing it serves no purpose, and I don't really care to convert and trade for a long shot of anyone wanting it.  That lich would be a purely player-negative experience. 

Using my solution above, every drop no matter how bad, can be a step forward, which is player positive, a net gain even if a small one.  It maintains the longevity and replayability that y'all seem to want, if not even making it MORE so - someone with a 54% rad karak for example, wouldn't want another Karak most likely, since it's almost guaranteed to be a lower roll.  Under my system, they'd be happy because theirs would get better up to max.  From the players side, it means there is never a point where a lich is a step backwards, an obstacle that gives them no progress at all.  There will be a long term engagement of the system because it is always rewarding in some way, shape, or form.

I'm not against grind, against taking time to gain the best reward - I'm only against wasting player time and punishing player effort with liches that represent 0 reward for time invested and resources cost, and for the system allowing the best rewards to be realistically attainable.  

[LepraSK]

On 2019-11-11 at 11:28 PM, [DE]Bear said:

• WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

Well it's an effort, but not good enough. From 14 Liches i have 4 Kohms, and not one came after another. How about you start getting duplicates, after you have all weapons? Too easy? I know, that way it would not depend heavily on RNG, like everything else in the game, and would take only around 400 missions, not counting hunting for larvlings, that for some people don't spawn, whatever they try.

[ScarletShadebloom]

I love this system, and the tweaks have been good! I only request two things. I know it’s all going to be iterated upon, and by the end of next year the whole system is going to be broad and diverse and deep. I’m looking forward to it! In the meantime, may we please use a 30/40/50 murmur requirement scale, and let both male and female Kuva Liches have either or both personalities? I deeply desire a jovial female Kuva Lich and a calculating male Kuva Lich. Also, if it were possible, a calculating jokester or a jovial tactician would be very cool combination personalities to really spice things up!

[(NSW)CosmicChaos]

17 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

We wanted to add some clarity: a Kuva Lich can only be traded once. A player can convert a Kuva Lich which then can be traded to another player as an active Kuva Lich for the recipient. If that Kuva Lich is converted again, it will not be eligible for trading. Should the traded Kuva Lich also have an Ephemera, then both the original Tenno and the receiving Tenno will earn the Ephemera upon defeat or conversion.

As for the Ephemera’s themselves, we are going to be doubling the drop chance of Ephemera for all newly generated Kuva Liches.

We still have more changes to make and discussions are still ongoing.
 

Hi, I have a proposal that will work nicely with this: make the oh-so-coveted weapon % reroll upon being traded.

This solves the issue of unwanted Liches that no one else would want to take, thus encouraging more frequent Lich trading and prevents any horrific "wts high % Lich 500 plat" nonsense scenarios from crazy farmers.

As for the issue of recipients getting an unlucky reroll and being forced to go through the usual process... Eh, thems the breaks when you take a shortcut to getting the Lich with the exact weapon you want.

[PakkiTheDog]

On 2019-11-11 at 11:28 PM, [DE]Bear said:

 

I am very disappointed at you DE with this update and your "fixes".

Basically you expect us to replay content that consist out of multiple RNG grind walls and spend multiple hours and in the end you don't even want to reward us. Ever getting a duplicate weapon, for me, is a waist of time. Conversion is pointless. Trying to hunt better weapon % is pointless. Combining weapons is pointless.

This isn't the first time something like this has happened. Why do you release content in this state when you have to know it's not rewarding enough. You are destroying good will and our experiences with the updates every time you do this, and fixing the update several weeks later, to how it should have been in the first place... it's just not right. There has to be a backlash (not feedback) to change your mind.

This is the kind of thing i would expect from EA and you are better than them. I know we won't get much content in a while, and i know that we play trough content faster than you can make it, but you also have to understand that you can't force us to replay mindless and unrewarding missions for hours and hours, because that is not content. And in return players might actually stop playing the update sooner because of how grindy it is. They just won't bother with the update, like me.