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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™

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@DoomFruit

Failing a mission is not the same as being downed. That’s how Warframe doesn’t operate on that principle in the way you were suggesting. You “fail” the Requiem, resulting in you being knocked out, but that doesn’t fail the mission. That doesn’t fail the Lich. The language of failing is being used, but in a totally different context. By your definition of failing, there was no failure.

The clear train of logic in that explanation regarding the “fairness” of Lich finishers is this: the system is about leveraging the rules of reviving to create an encounter that cannot be trivialized, and does not rely on cheap tactics. The creative decisions the designers made are AN ANSWER to that challenge, but not the ONLY answer. I am urging you, and strongly encouraging you, to suggest to them an alternative solution that leverages the concept of revival to create an encounter that cannot be trivialized, but doesn’t rely on cheap tactics like invulnerability phases. This would be very profitable, and potentially helpful! They aren’t going to remove the fact that Kuva Liches can revive and can perform finishers because that’s the whole point. We have powers, and revival, and modded weapons, and finishers that instantly kill. They have all those things too.

Edited by ScarletShadebloom

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1 hour ago, ScarletShadebloom said:

subjective

You seem to be very defensive of DE. I'm going to list a couple of facts, which shouldn't be subjective.

1. DE has released multiple updates where the grind wall was insane and the rewards minimal. Arbitration, kuva system, fortuna and plains rewards and standing ect... they fixed it after a while, but being game developers and having testers how haven't they gotten it right the first time? Also look at the new warframes, the way of obtaining them. Older warframes you could get from a boss or trough a quest, but lately newer warframes are getting harder to farm to a point where i for one just don't bother anymore and rather buy them when they come out.

2. For now Warframe is tough to be one of the rare proper F2P games on the market. If they continue adding grind walls players will either decide to skip content or pay for it. There is a line of how grindy the game can be to stay free to play and not pay to play.

3. Grind required to get a kuva weapon:

A) Get kuva relics. You need at least 8 if you get lucky and get all the mods first time.

B) Spend 100 traces per relic to make them radiant. This is a big thing if you don't have a booster.

C) Use relics and hopefully get all the mods.

D) Farm murmurs. You can try to force it, but out of 8 different mods and because the order matters, the possible combinations are too many.

E) Even after you have all the mods in order you still might have to draw the lich out, basically hunting thralls just to make the lich spawn.

F) After all that you get a duplicate.

C) And also to add the 5 forma grind to gain max xp, with which i for one won't bother because it's ridiculous.

 

There are 13 weapons. Even if you'd repeat this process 13 times you'd spend a massive amount of hours and honestly that i could stomach. But the fact that i receive nothing but frustration is absurd.

Even with the above changes, if you already have 6 kuva weapons, the next kuva weapon won't be the same as the last one, but it can still be the same as the other 5 so you'll still receive a bunch more duplicates.

Duplicates are useless. I don't care for RNG bonus dmg and trying to get the best % possible because that is a waist of time. The weapon is already strong enough!

 

I just want to get the weapons, see which ones i like and which i don't. I'll forma the ones i like and use. I'm just sad that this is starting to be a custom. DE releasing grindy content, players get upset and backlash and DE changes it to how it should have been in the first place. After a while it just feels like they are testing the waters for how far they can go before we rebel, either that or incompetence, but i kinda doubt that. It's just starting to smell of corporate greed. 

Edited by PakkiTheDog
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18 hours ago, CuChulainnWD said:

You can force your odds by adding any random mod into the next slot, you don't lose anything for trying before you get the mod revealed. I have had a couple early kills by luck as by logic.  Use a combination of luck and logic to increase your odds of victory.

Yeah, I'm doing that, I just feel like we should get something for discovering one through experimentation rather than through murmurs.

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5 minutes ago, PakkiTheDog said:

You seem to be very defensive of DE. I'm going to list a couple of facts, which shouldn't be subjective.

1. DE has released multiple updates where the grind wall was insane and the rewards minimal. Arbitration, kuva system, fortuna and plains rewards and standing ect... they fixed it after a while, but being game developers and having testers how haven't they gotten it right the first time? Also look at the new warframes, the way of obtaining them. Older warframes you could get from a boss or trough a quest, but lately newer warframes are getting harder to farm to a point where i for one just don't bother anymore and rather buy them when they come out.

2. For now Warframe is tough to be one of the rare proper F2P games on the market. If they continue adding grind walls players will either decide to skip content or pay for it. There is a line of how grindy the game can be to stay free to play and not pay to play.

3. Grind required to get a kuva weapon:

A) Get kuva relics. You need at least 8 if you get lucky and get all the mods first time.

B) Spend 100 traces per relic to make them radiant. This is a big thing if you don't have a booster.

C) Use relics and hopefully get all the mods.

D) Farm murmurs. You can try to force it, but out of 8 different mods and because the order matters, the possible combinations are too many.

E) Even after you have all the mods in order you still might have to draw the lich out, basically hunting thralls just to make the lich spawn.

F) After all that you get a duplicate.

C) And also to add the 5 forma grind to gain max xp, with which i for one won't bother because it's ridiculous.

 

There are 13 weapons. Even if you'd repeat this process 13 times you'd spend a massive amount of hours and honestly that i could stomach. But the fact that i receive nothing but frustration is absurd.

Even with the above changes, if you already have 6 kuva weapons, the next kuva weapon won't be the same as the last one, but it can still be the same as the other 5 so you'll still receive a bunch more duplicates.

Duplicates are useless. I don't care for RNG bonus dmg and trying to get the best % possible because that is a waist of time. The weapon is already strong enough!

 

I just want to get the weapons, see which ones i like and which i don't. I'll forma the ones i like and use. I'm just sad that this is starting to be a custom. DE releasing grindy content, players get upset and backlash and DE changes it to how it should have been in the first place. After a while it just feels like they are testing the waters for how far they can go before we rebel, either that or incompetence, but i kinda doubt that. It's just starting to smell of corporate greed. 

Wow! Brilliant! Very thoughtful response! Thanks so much for being constructive. I abhor arguments. Here’s what I mean: the facts you state are all objectively true. The question is, are the conclusions drawn from them undeniable? I claim that any conclusions drawn from the observable facts are to some extent subjective. Everyone has a different experience, and the only way to improve the experience is to give constructive feedback. The reason that the content is patched up to where “it should have obviously started out” every time is that these things are obvious in hindsight, and I believe the devs would completely agree, but right out of the gate, they cannot for certain know how much grind is too much grind for example. I’m not really trying to defend DE per se. I’m just trying to see the other side of the situation. I’m really into theorycrafting and engineering design, so that heavily colours my perspective.

❤️

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DE, please, just discard the whole Requiem thing and take a good look what made Shadow of War great. The game will be much better if you stop creating unnecessary grind. Right now I just see people leaving, being fed up with the amount of pointless grind system has right now.

This "personal villain" thing just isn't working. Just leave it and at least make the whole thing fun. It should be not only about the rewards, but about the process too. If the core gameplay loop of the system will be fun, people will continue to play even after they get everything they wanted. And I've already suggested how to make rewards better. 

Edited by BloodRavenCap
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22 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

We still have more changes to make and discussions are still ongoing.

Any ETA?

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Hi,

I have a single idea I would LOVE to be implemented to the Kuva Weapons:

Make it so you can sacrifice any Kuva weapon for a 5% increase of the random stat of another Kuva weapon, that way even if you get a duplicate with lower stats you can still use it to improve another Kuva weapon rather then end up (after quite a bit of grind) with a pile of poo...

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Le 11/11/2019 à 23:28, [DE]Bear a dit :

WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

 

After 3 brakk, 5 tonkor, 2 kohm, 2 chakurr, 2 duba stuba, 3 drakgoon & 2 Shildeg.

3 being upgrade the others being useless and with 4 weapons still missing; I'm pretty positive that this is insufficient.

Edited by papry
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On 2019-11-12 at 11:28 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Greeting, Lich Hunters!

After the release of the Kuva Lich System in Update 26: The Old Blood, you have been providing us a lot of feedback on what you do and don’t like about hunting your personal Lich. While we have made many improvements over the past week, we have more to come. We are adding the following very soon, based on your feedback:

  • WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.
  • RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod. This gives them some additional use, as well as helping you clean up your inventory.
  • TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!
  • MORE TO COME - We are looking at other ways in which we can make the Kuva Lich system more rewarding and unique, although there is still a lot of internal discussion surrounding the ‘hows’ while maintaining the design intent. More on this as it is finalized.

Monitoring, tweaking and balancing this new process is an ongoing effort, and we rely on your feedback to let us know what you think. Please keep your feedback constructive and succinct, making sure you give suggestions to systems you do not like, while detailing why you do like a system, should that be your opinion.

The hunt continues!
UPDATED: 11.13.19 @ 5.23PM

Ok, so I have an idea for trading up your kuva lich.

Make it similar to Death Stranding in terms of a job board.

Have an option for any and ALL players to give up their current kuva lich to the public job board and then ANY player anywhere in the game can grab it and kill it instead. But it should give you some reward as well. Like 1%-5% of the rewards recovered go back to you.

That way it intensives a more community based lich hunting process

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On 2019-11-13 at 4:17 PM, DesertEagle1280 said:

I understand they want something that won't be a "we all ran the mission a week after release and we're done" - ie look at Umbra, that was months of work, and the "content" was over for most players in just a day or two, then we're back complaining about nothing to do.  

And honestly, my issue with the system as it is at the moment isn't that I can't get what I want immediately, I think the whole puzzle thing is fun

i get that to, but there are far more simpler and less annoying, piss taking things they could implement that still keep us playing but make our lives easier and not bore and/or annoy us to death that they could be doing but arent, like i said these ideas people come up with, like how i said the larva should be carrying the weapon the lich is going to use, so that way youre still farming but dont have to waste time on a whole lich just to try again for something you want, arent that complex ideas to come up with, especially not for a game dev team, but it feels like theyre actively trying to make our lives as miserable as possible in places with this system so far

i love the idea of the lich system, i was pissed when i saw they upped the amount of murmurs needed for each one when that hotfix came out but as soon as i saw the notes about liches awarding 10x the murmur progress in the same patch notes my annoyance went away, cause it made sense to balance it out, i was having fun with the lich system when someone mercying their lich gave 10x the murmur progress to everyone in the mission, but then they took it away and i only did one more lich before i just stopped playing and started playing something else, they wont even bring that back but leave the 10x murmur progress to the person who mercies the lich and have everyone else in the squad get 5x the murmur progress instead of 10x

they want to keep people playing, which makes sense for a dev team, they want to keep people playing for as long as possible, but so far everything theyve done to keep people playing has just pissed people off and made a lot of people stop playing, the complete opposite of what they want

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10 hours ago, ScarletShadebloom said:

@DoomFruit

Failing a mission is not the same as being downed. That’s how Warframe doesn’t operate on that principle in the way you were suggesting. You “fail” the Requiem, resulting in you being knocked out, but that doesn’t fail the mission. That doesn’t fail the Lich. The language of failing is being used, but in a totally different context. By your definition of failing, there was no failure.

The clear train of logic in that explanation regarding the “fairness” of Lich finishers is this: the system is about leveraging the rules of reviving to create an encounter that cannot be trivialized, and does not rely on cheap tactics. The creative decisions the designers made are AN ANSWER to that challenge, but not the ONLY answer. I am urging you, and strongly encouraging you, to suggest to them an alternative solution that leverages the concept of revival to create an encounter that cannot be trivialized, but doesn’t rely on cheap tactics like invulnerability phases. This would be very profitable, and potentially helpful! They aren’t going to remove the fact that Kuva Liches can revive and can perform finishers because that’s the whole point. We have powers, and revival, and modded weapons, and finishers that instantly kill. They have all those things too.

Sorry, but instant kill finishers from the Lich HAVE to go before there can be any discussion if this a fair/fun/challenging system. Also the "they have the same stuff we have" argument is just not correct. We cant instantly kill the Lich (that's good), but they can instantly kill us (that's bad). Nobody is arguing about them reviving or anything, just the "guess-or-die" mechanic has to be removed. I proposed it before, make the grab reversable to instantly down and despawn the Lich (not vanquished, just "killed" int he way we are) just like the Lich "reverses" our finisher move or (my personal preference) add a hacking like mini game to deal the actual deathblow, something that makes player input relevant. Wrong Mods would simply mean the Lich despawns and learns from the expirience, ranking up. But no more cheap instagibs. Those are simply stupid.


If the whole point of the Lich System is to be an obnoxious design flaw that just kills your for trying, it better is removed completely and chalked up as a mistake on the board.

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Any plans on adding more personalities? It would be really nice to see (at least) the jovial/serious personality switched between genders of the liches.

Edited by Gaikki

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I'm just hoping they fix the lich system entirely because what we have right now is horrible.

Also.... I really think they shouldn't be charging platinum for the parazon mods if they only have 3 charges.

And if they're only 3 charges... they should really be a lot easier to get.

Edited by Stratosara
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15 hours ago, ScarletShadebloom said:

@DoomFruit

Failing a mission is not the same as being downed. That’s how Warframe doesn’t operate on that principle in the way you were suggesting. You “fail” the Requiem, resulting in you being knocked out, but that doesn’t fail the mission. That doesn’t fail the Lich. The language of failing is being used, but in a totally different context. By your definition of failing, there was no failure.

The clear train of logic in that explanation regarding the “fairness” of Lich finishers is this: the system is about leveraging the rules of reviving to create an encounter that cannot be trivialized, and does not rely on cheap tactics. The creative decisions the designers made are AN ANSWER to that challenge, but not the ONLY answer. I am urging you, and strongly encouraging you, to suggest to them an alternative solution that leverages the concept of revival to create an encounter that cannot be trivialized, but doesn’t rely on cheap tactics like invulnerability phases. This would be very profitable, and potentially helpful! They aren’t going to remove the fact that Kuva Liches can revive and can perform finishers because that’s the whole point. We have powers, and revival, and modded weapons, and finishers that instantly kill. They have all those things too.

You want cheap tactics, well how about getting instakilled after you've already won the battle?

How do you change it? Easy. Make them actual liches. You empty their healthbar. They slump to the ground. You've won the fight. You then go up and stab them.

If you have the wrong mod combo, nothing special happens. They get back up again at the end of the mission - show this in a (skippable) post-mission cutscene. If you sliced a few limbs off at the end of the battle, have them pull back together and reforge in a cloud of kuva. Explicitly show them reviving. That's what liches do. That's also what no other enemy in the game does.

If you want them doing finishers on you, it should only be done when they actually kill you during the fight. Both victory and defeat are earned. If I lose my HP (and don't have enough energy for quick stagger to function), then I do die. This is perfectly acceptable. That was my fault.

What I object to is dying for having made no gameplay mistakes.

Then there are, of course, the other problems with the lich system - consumable mods (WHY?) and the complete uselessness of duplicate weapons if they're not even a single percent higher than what you have now. It's also going to be completely impenetrable for someone who finds this game half a year in the future, shanks some grineer somewhere and suddenly ends up with this invincible git coming out of nowhere stealing their stuff and with no explanation for why this is happening.

The mods should never have been consumable in the first place. Requiem relics should never have been created. Players ought to get introduced to the mods through a quest chain which starts when you create your first lich and then encounter them in battle somewhere. At the end of the mission, Ordis should then comment on this and start a line of investigation, which will both teach the player what liches are and provide them with the requiem mods to defeat them by doing the quest missions.

Weapon combination shouldn't be a direct overwrite of the stats, but should consume 1 weapon and add 5% on to the other weapon. That's it.

There are so many ways in which all of this could have been done better, and there's no reason why I should have to be the one saying so. Any decent playtesting would have shown how inconsistent and annoying the whole system is.

Edited by DoomFruit

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Once again, being downed is not the same as failing. The Kuva Lich cannot kill you, but you CAN kill it, with the right Requiem.

It is equal. It’s not the same, but it is equal. There is a way to effectively kill a Warframe. It has to be captured and dismembered. By the same token, there is a way to kill a Kuva immortal with Void magic. Otherwise they can’t die, just like we can’t die.

What it comes down to is that you two don’t like the fact that getting the Requiem wrong results in you being downed. That’s fair. You can make an argument as to how that’s not fun. However, it’s not unfair, and it’s not a flaw. It’s a matter of perspective. The designer would claim, and I would agree, that there is NO SENSE in which you have already won simply by putting the enemy into a “bleeding out” state. Just because Stalker is allowed to extract after downing you, doesn’t mean that downed is defeated. In the case of a Warframe, and now also a Kuva Lich, defeat only comes when the ability to revive is exhausted. Even then, true death requires special conditions. Those special conditions for the Kuva Lich are a particular spell. Having a dislike for the design is fair, but just suggest alternatives. It’s not fair to claim that it punishes you for trying when in reality it’s a matter of preference. Being downed really doesn’t cost you anything but your pride. I have no problem with someone preferring not to get humiliated, but for me, that design fuels my desire to humiliate the Lich in return. It’s all a matter of perspective.

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48 minutes ago, ScarletShadebloom said:

It’s not fair to claim that it punishes you for trying

Are you sure about that? Did u play a mission solo? Did you see the whole system ignoring phoenix renewal or wukong's passive? Did you try levelling your weapons while collecting murmurs?

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5 minutes ago, Khantico said:

Are you sure about that? Did u play a mission solo? Did you see the whole system ignoring phoenix renewal or wukong's passive? Did you try levelling your weapons while collecting murmurs?

While I have done the majority of these things, I also understand that this is not intended to be solo content, nor is it intended to be mastery farm, so making the choice to play it in these ways is deliberately making the choice to punish yourself, and I accept that.

When it comes to Wukong etc. that’s a blatant conflict of rules. This isn’t technically a bug, but it’s something that should be addressed on a technicality level for sure.

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5 minutes ago, ScarletShadebloom said:

I also understand that this is not intended to be solo content

Are you still talking about the lich system? 

 

7 minutes ago, ScarletShadebloom said:

nor is it intended to be mastery farm

Are you still talking about Warframe?

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Perhaps the true failure of the Old Blood update is that so many players seem to have such a skewed impression of what it’s supposed to be and to bring. The system itself undeniably needs iterating, but by itself, it is very fun and engaging content when you play it as intended, and submit to the rules of the game, however different they may be from what we are used to.

That said, it was always very clear to me, what the intended methods and approach to this content were, and perhaps it is a direct result of this that I have derived so much enjoyment from it.

In light of that, I don’t know how to advise DE to provide more clarity in regards to the intentions above, but it seems somehow more clarity is in order.

Edited by ScarletShadebloom

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Decrease the Murmurs needed to 30-30-50, please. After played it awhile and got some duplicates, it feels really tedious and too slow to get the correct Requiem formation (especially when the annoyance level of the Lich resetted when the execution is failed) The 10x free murmurs from Lich doesn't really help. 

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Even 30/40/50 or 30/30/60 would be better. That final 70 just feels like it takes forever and a day. If it got reduced by a mere 10 points it would be much more manageable.

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On 2019-11-12 at 4:03 AM, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

Let me check math. So for 90% sure (mean 1 of 10 players will still be reducted) It changed from 0.9=1- (1-1/13)^x X=28.8 to 0.9=1- (1-1/12)^x X=26.5 runs.

I believe that's a great reduction!

Hahahaha, n1!

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Just wanted to say. To be honest farming the relics and requiem mods is not hard. So the rng there is not worse than anywhere else. The only problem is the rng on the weapons and no real sense of killing a Lich with a useless weapon. 

I mean people are even choosing other rewards from relics instead of the mods. I really don‘t see the problem in those phases of the Lich system. The problem is the Lich itself not being rewarding in any way besides his weapon (and if the weapon is trash you just need to kill it to create a new one without any reward, which sucks).

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I think Lich trading is as awkward and clumsy as the rest of the Lich system. Why are we converting Liches (turning them to our side) only to return them to the ranks of the Grineer when we trade them? How do the Grineer feel about this? Also trading people feels a bit ick. Having a whole room, that you have to specifically go to just for this is also awkward and weird.

Would it be better to trade the bounty for them, itself? So trade active Liches? A bounty board in Maroo's Bazaar would have been great for just this. Put a bounty up, receive offers of other Liches, accept one and hunt the accepted trade in the place of the one you had to hunt down. Also gives another reason to visit Maroo 'cos that place is dead most of the time.

The fact you currently grind a Lich to convert, to just be able to trade for another Lich to grind is very unrewarding. If the Lich kept its code and you were given it, which would make sense, seeing as it is meant to be unique to that Lich and all - why WOULD it change? - then that would not only feel better but make more sense, but no. Of course not.

Edited by SpaceSheepie

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