Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™

[Joltyboi]

1 hour ago, AC17499 said:

It's so frustrating that the game itself lacked so much explanations on how simple decisions like this one would impact the outcome

im not really sure where the confusion comes from here

vanquish = you kill it = lich dead and you take its weapon

convert = new "ally" (quotation marks on account of them being so sh1t and unreliable)

[CuChulainnWD]

On 2019-11-16 at 3:06 AM, Joltyboi said:

i remember the day the update came out, before it came out, i heard someone talk about a bounty board system for "trading" liches, i think it might have been on steves stream and i think it might have been him who talked about it, if you didnt like your lich you just had to go to the dojo and put it up on the bounty board to get rid of it, where the hells that idea gone?

They decided a slave trade system would be better. More plat that way.

[Nichivo]

Everyone will dislike me for saying this, but from a balance perspective, the drop rate of requiem relics from thralls is a little high. 

Once you get rolling it removes the need to ever do floods, or siphons for relics. I know it will be an unpopular stance.

[Deshiel]

Add nickname system for converted liches, instead of full rename, you let us insert "sparky" , "loneboy" etc

also make them colorable and make them recruitable to the railjack crew

[Fl_3]

Here's a few proposals designed to take a bit of the grind and RNG out of the Kuva Lich system.

1. When farming murmurs, instead of just receiving information on which mod is required to take down a Lich, why not actually give the player the mod required, if we're killing these guys for information surely the information we receive would be more than just the identity of the mod. Or, allow it to lead into a special mission where we unlock a vault or capture a specific enemy to obtain the requiem mod. Something like this would remove so much of the RNG that people are complaining about.

2. Lich Kill Switch, I've mentioned this one so many times. Liches are made on Kuva fortress yes? If so, there must be a machine there that can also undo their transformation. If a player rolls a Lich that they do not want, instead of forcing them to grind it out in order to convert it (the only way to get rid of it if you don't want its weapon) Why not add a system to destroy them early? This would be a sortie style mission (limited to once a week?)  ending in a defence set on Kuva Fortress in which you defend whatever that machine is for x amount of time. At the end of which it spits out a parazon mod as the reward for completion that can be used to take down a lich (with no rewards given) at any time. Of course this would only work on the mod users Lich to prevent trolling, we don't want people killing good Liches after all now do we? The reward could be a blueprint for said kill mod (Call it The Final Requiem?) if people want more than one a week, they could be made tradeable or even sold on the in game market for plat. No more unwanted Liches, more happy players.

3. Allow Liches traded to other players to attack their creators (at a reduced rate) Come on, just because the progenitor of a Lich has sold it to someone else isn't going to stop this creature that was created for a single purpose from trying to complete it's task, killing the Tenno who created it. Or, go back to the bounty system, that was mentioned and allow other players to sign up to kill a specific Lich. You could have multiple people all hunting the same lich at the same time. The Lich knowing it's being hunted could go into hiding appearing as a rare spawn in the hunters missions. A race to see who will be the first to claim the bounty on it's head would happen, and when it's defeated a mail would be sent to each hunter to let them know the hunt was over. That's way more dynamic than just going into a Dojo room and clicking a button and treating the whole thing with all the glamour of buying a bag of milk. Maroos Bazar the perfect location for this bounty board as has already been mentioned. It could be set up to show the number of Tenno hunting each Lich. If it really needs to be monetized, you could sell Lich beacons for plat that increase the chance of that specific lich spawning into your missions.

No more Lich trading for plat sure, but now you can trade Final Requiem mods instead. 

4. Kuva Lich creation, The system we have doesn't make sense, first if we killed a larveling it made a lich, you had no choice which people didn't like because there was no opt out. Now we have to kill it twice to give it the go ahead which is even more nonsensical? Why not introduce a meter (call it Queens Rage or something) that builds as you play missions against the Grineer and upon reaching a certain point resets and throws out a larveling using the regular larveling spawn mechanic. Now meeting a larveling isn't an every mission thing, you may only see one every few days, and if you kill it and it spawns into a Lich you don't want you can always use the kill switch mentioned above to remove it from your game. You can still only have one Lich active so as long as you don't grind an unwanted one you can simply wait for the kill switch mission to reset, run it again and free yourself as many times as you need.

If you don't want to spawn a Lich, there could be some way to reduce the amount of rage the queens feel towards you. This could be a mission that rewards you with a consumable or a blueprint for credits and ready made for plat available on the marketplace, that somehow (when used in a specific mission in Kuva Fortress say) lowers the negative standing that causes a larvelling to target you, or maybe a raid on the Fortress to destroy the larvelling before it's ready (like the sabotage on Uranus only Kuva Larveling at the end and not Maniac Bombard) 

There, my dream Kuva Lich experience, less RNG, less grind a few new missions tied into the Lich creation and destruction cycle.

 

 

 

[Colyeses]

On 2019-11-11 at 11:55 PM, Rukako122 said:

I can't take Liches on alone for now. 

Liches have no countermeasure for invisibility. Ivara can cheese them.

[TighLyrth]

В 12.11.2019 в 08:36, MarrikBroom сказал:

* Allow bad sequences for the parazon to kill the lich. Have them slump over and die laughing. 'You can't kill me... I'm Imortal. Just. Like. You.' Then the levelup animation we currently have. That ties into the 'we keep killing them' idea lore keeps suggesting but we don't see.

* Have lich levelups DO something. Level 1 they get one ability and no status resistances, then each levelup on gives them another ability and x% status resistance, til we get to what their current mechanics are. That way you get a feeling this thing gets stronger over time and you have a real sense that 'oh god i'm not figuring this out and it just keeps getting stronger.'

* Tying into the above. As the lich levels up have the drop tables for their planets gain a set of modifiers based on the lich, its elements, and level. That way you aren't just picking a progenetor on weapon the lich gives, or ephimera, but also the potential drops. This could theoretically give us away to farm mutagen samples (NO IT IS NOT RAINING IN THE DERELICT STEVE) or other resources that might otherwise be rare or annoying. 

* Give end of mission murmur rewards. Maybe ten per mission? SOmething that lets people who just blow thorugh missions casually gain murmur.

* Have a chance for the lich to show up outside of the territory it controls if it hits max level, but at the cost of it not having its status immunity or immunity to armor stripping, or whatever makes them so damned annoying to fight. Lich shows up with a small crowd of its thralls in random mission you're hosting and unless the other players attack, it ignores them or doesn't really leave the tile it spawns in, that way newbies aren't mauled to death. The lich being weakened when outside of its zone of control would help to balance the fact it can show anywhere.

* I want the liches as an option for railjack crew. C'mon make it happen that'd be a good use for 'liches nobody wants.

Yes, good stuff OVER HERE, DE! Especially 1st thing! It was your starting idea! When they kill you it takes too long to respawn, and, if your'e doing solo defence/mob. def./interception it allows for objecives to be destroyed/captured before you're back. And it's in addition to already fighting lich over completing mission. And some warframes really suffer from those deaths, like Gara and Khora, who stack their abilities throughout the mission.

[TighLyrth]

20 часов назад, Nichivo сказал:

Everyone will dislike me for saying this, but from a balance perspective, the drop rate of requiem relics from thralls is a little high. 

Once you get rolling it removes the need to ever do floods, or siphons for relics. I know it will be an unpopular stance.

Nah, you're right. Im not doing floods for relics for sure, got tons of them. It's not that bad as compared to mods dropping themselves, but still, pretty easy to get relics rollin.

[2779544cyh]

The process of unlocking the password is irritating and lengthy. Although the description of these mods is very interesting, it doesn't help to unlock the passwords and their order. I'm not sure how you think about it when developing this thing. If the text description of these mods really has any way To solve this irritating process, I hope someone can tell me, "Hey, I want to know the correct order based on the existing information is possible!" That is best, I hope that the Requiem mod is not only a poetic Mod, kova lich should become more interesting and full of puzzle elements, rather than blindly killing enemies, executing or being executed

[2779544cyh]

 

On 2019/11/18 at AM4点42分, Nichivo said:

每个人都会不喜欢我这么说，但是从平衡的角度来看，从萨尔省获得的安魂曲的掉落率有点高。 

一旦滚动，就不再需要进行洪水或虹吸文物。我知道这是不受欢迎的立场。

You have to understand that the most attractive reward for these two play modes is not T5, but kuva, you are not a developer, I really don't know why you are worried about these two modes, no one is going to play.

[Hawker65]

Le 12/11/2019 à 11:06, Neofaucheur a dit :

While not ideal, you can just play solo. Adaro as been giving me almost 100% larvling spawn rate so far, and I'm at about 15 Lichs. Though the spawn seems to be broken on a per person basis. It's not super good for a coop game, sure, but that's a nonissue imo, because that's about 5min of solo play.

People refusing to stab their Lich and making any further Lich spawn in the mission impossible is a much more pressing issue in the "cooperation" department.

The damage type is deterministically tied to the Warframe you use to kill the larvling. If you didn't already, I suggest you read https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Kuva_Lich#Mechanics

Nobody likes Impact, but realistically you should only aim for Toxin, and maybe Fire, if you're trying to get optimal weapon rolls, although most options aren't strictly bad.

True but working around issues does not mean the issues are not there. Frankly, I'm not a fan of having to play with specific warframes to get something I want, especially because of how lengthy it is to farm a Lich.

[Nichivo]

5 hours ago, 2779544cyh said:

 

You have to understand that the most attractive reward for these two play modes is not T5, but kuva, you are not a developer, I really don't know why you are worried about these two modes, no one is going to play.

That has to be one of the worst translations I have ever seen. You at least grasp the concept of people not doing siphons ,and floods for kuva, because you admit nobody playing them. Why would they? Survival and Disruption have better kuva rewards. Oh yeah! For the relics, or at least they did before the high drop rate on thralls. 

I'm not worried. I just care about the quality of the game, because I want to continue enjoying Warframe.

You act like you know me... So what did I do for a living before I retired? Go ahead take a stab, I'll wait!

[ScarletShadebloom]

Regarding ridding yourself of unwanted Kuva Liches, I have additional feedback. I agree with others that having to convert them for the trade is very strange. However, I know where it’s coming from. Remember the old ritual? “Drink them in the evening, and expel them by morning.” They are bound to your Operator by the power of Kuva, and they must be expelled by a ritual. Thus, we must convert them before we can transfer their bond to another, but what if we took that a step further? Bear with my insanity for a minute, if you will. I find the concepts that go into Void magic and the power of Kuva to be really cool. Maybe we could come up with an exchange ritual, and a banishment ritual for unconverted Liches, instead of just reusing the conversion ritual, and shoehorning it into the trading system. The current method feels a little ick. From a lore perspective, the conversion process is pretty intimate, and it binds them wholly over to my service. Not only are they required contractually to come to my aid if possible when my enemies down me, but they also greatly desire to do so. Helping me and supporting me fulfills them in a way that fighting me never could. You can tell this from their dialogue. From a character standpoint, I could never bring myself to trade away a converted Kuva Lich.

Please consider expanding the rituals to include bond-breaking, and bond-trading.

[Neofaucheur]

19 minutes ago, Hawker65 said:

True but working around issues does not mean the issues are not there.

I would agree, if it didn't just cost you about 2 minutes to create a Lich. by running an extermination alone. I'd rather have the current system where I can at least chose the element I get than anything else. Except a menu where I could just create my Lich how I want maybe.

[-AncientWarrior-]

On 2019-11-16 at 2:44 PM, SpaceSheepie said:

I think Lich trading is as awkward and clumsy as the rest of the Lich system. Why are we converting Liches (turning them to our side) only to return them to the ranks of the Grineer when we trade them? How do the Grineer feel about this? Also trading people feels a bit ick. Having a whole room, that you have to specifically go to just for this is also awkward and weird.

Would it be better to trade the bounty for them, itself? So trade active Liches? A bounty board in Maroo's Bazaar would have been great for just this. Put a bounty up, receive offers of other Liches, accept one and hunt the accepted trade in the place of the one you had to hunt down. Also gives another reason to visit Maroo 'cos that place is dead most of the time.

The fact you currently grind a Lich to convert, to just be able to trade for another Lich to grind is very unrewarding. If the Lich kept its code and you were given it, which would make sense, seeing as it is meant to be unique to that Lich and all - why WOULD it change? - then that would not only feel better but make more sense, but no. Of course not.

Very good post here, smart well thought out solution. 

I also think the amount of bugs/issues with the Lich system really need to be addressed.  Yesterday while again farming my 150 murmers I found so many issues, like Thralls just disappearing from the map, or if u stab a Thrall next to a gun turret you can get locked in the turret and not be able to move, shoot or exit the turret, even had a Lich that I couldnt see to stab him, but my mate could see him, and a completely invunerable Lich that would take no damage what so ever, just got 0 0 0's damage trying to take his shields down.

Also the amount of murmers we get when we fail a stabby stab needs to be 20 at least.  In a solo mission I usually get between 7-12 Murmers for a quick run, so a stab fail attempt just is not worth the effort, hence the issues of not very co-op friendly, why would you just rank up your Lich for a few extra.. but 20 extra murmers would make players think more about a sacrifical stab being worth the Lich ranking up.

Trading active Lichs would be a much better idea, as I already have 2 of most weapons and grinding out another duplicate is a rather unrewarding waste of a few hours, so the idea SpaceSheepie has for the Lich Bounty Board is pretty interesting.

[ScarletShadebloom]

The reason I suggest something other than a bounty board is that a bounty board is as cheap and nonsensical from a lore standpoint as converting them just to trade. The reason we have to deal with them, and can turn them to our side, is that there’s a special bond. There should definitely be another way to get rid of them, ways to break or transfer that bond right from the start, instead of having to go through the conversion process. Whatever option it is, needs to be quicker to go through than vanquishing or converting, but it shouldn’t just be a bounty board. That’s a bad cop-out from a lore perspective. If getting rid of them is as simple as saying “nah” and posting a bounty, then they may as well not exist, as that completely invalidates the concept of a Kuva bond.

[Fl_3]

4 hours ago, ScarletShadebloom said:

The reason I suggest something other than a bounty board is that a bounty board is as cheap and nonsensical from a lore standpoint as converting them just to trade. The reason we have to deal with them, and can turn them to our side, is that there’s a special bond. There should definitely be another way to get rid of them, ways to break or transfer that bond right from the start, instead of having to go through the conversion process. Whatever option it is, needs to be quicker to go through than vanquishing or converting, but it shouldn’t just be a bounty board. That’s a bad cop-out from a lore perspective. If getting rid of them is as simple as saying “nah” and posting a bounty, then they may as well not exist, as that completely invalidates the concept of a Kuva bond.

I suggested a sortie style mission that would reward the player a one shot parazon mod that would kill their lich at anytime for no reward. 

How simple it would be to actually put into the game I have no idea but it would solve the problem of unwanted Liches.

Trading them though, it makes no sense story wise, it feels like a quick fix on the way to something else, even the room used to trade is a quick rehash of an old asset. I'm hoping that better comes as the Lich system gets expanded on.

[2779544cyh]

11 hours ago, Nichivo said:

那一定是我见过的最糟糕的翻译之一。您至少掌握了人们不虹吸的概念，并为库瓦河泛滥，因为您承认没有人在玩它们。他们为什么会呢？生存与破坏具有更好的库瓦奖励。哦耶！对于文物，或者至少是在萨洛的高下降率之前。 

我不担心。我只关心游戏的质量，因为我想继续享受Warframe。

你的举止就像你认识我一样...所以我退休前做了什么谋生？来吧，我等一等！

？

[Temp950]

There are increasing amounts of a holes who refuse to kill their lich, and thereby deny everyone else in the squad a chance to get their lich. these missions only last five minutes, and having one imbecile refuse to kill their lich means no one else has a chance to get the lich. Can we please have liches level up regardless of whether an attempt is made to use requiem mods and kill them? Like if the lich is knocked down three times without requiem mods being used, have him vanish and say something mocking the player who refused to kill him, and then level up. Or better yet, make the lich level up to 5. 

The lich isn't even that hard to kill at lvl 5, yet I encounter several players a day who refuse to kill their lich.

[Trig]

On 2019-11-12 at 6:28 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Greeting, Lich Hunters!

After the release of the Kuva Lich System in Update 26: The Old Blood, you have been providing us a lot of feedback on what you do and don’t like about hunting your personal Lich. While we have made many improvements over the past week, we have more to come. We are adding the following very soon, based on your feedback:

• WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.
• RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod. This gives them some additional use, as well as helping you clean up your inventory.
• TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!
• MORE TO COME - We are looking at other ways in which we can make the Kuva Lich system more rewarding and unique, although there is still a lot of internal discussion surrounding the ‘hows’ while maintaining the design intent. More on this as it is finalized.

Monitoring, tweaking and balancing this new process is an ongoing effort, and we rely on your feedback to let us know what you think. Please keep your feedback constructive and succinct, making sure you give suggestions to systems you do not like, while detailing why you do like a system, should that be your opinion.

The hunt continues!
UPDATED: 11.13.19 @ 5.23PM

if the duplicate weapon defines as, as long as the weapon doesn't have the same stat, its a different weapon?
I don't want that tbh, i want weapon duplicate LOCK, until i get at least one weapon of each type, DE.
I Got 6 BS krakens already, and i want my chakkhurr only this whole time.

[Fl_3]

Dev Stream tonight, at some time during it they're going to be talking about Old Blood and improvements to commitment, pacing, RNG and co-op issues.

Well guys, what do we want to hear and what do we think we'll hear?

I'm hoping that despite their silence DE have been looking at the feedback threads and the (seemingly) general unhappiness with the state of The Old Blood at the moment listen to their player base and reduce some of that RNG and grind wall to a slightly (only slightly) less hair ripping level.

I'd be happy id they just cut out the lions share of the RNG to be honest.

[zombietrol]

En 12/11/2019 a las 0:06, V45H dijo:

when will we be able to donate a non converted lich to the clan as steve mentioned
also great now i have to tear down my dojo again :l
when will we get a proper like map editor style dojo builder where i can move rooms around to better organize rooms for an efficient dojo layout!
i alreay dont know where im going to put the dry dock dont get me wrong i love new rooms but we need more dojo building tools see time splitters map editor

 

You just read my mind. is that having to erase everything to configure the dojo, it surpasses me. This could add a good change to those who already have a dojo for a long time and their rooms are poorly distributed.

[Fl_3]

So, none of the things we were told we would get answers for appeared. 

But, [DE]Steve did at least comment that the feedback we've been giving as a player base is being looked at, but looked at and acted on are two different things.

Time will tell if it makes any difference, but the fact of the matter is that the levels of RNG in finding relics and from them the mods needed to finally vanquish a Lich is too much for a lot of people and needs to be reduced in some way.

The players have provided some good options and opinions, and it would still be nice to actually have DE release an official statement regarding possible updates before the time comes.

[Ikusias]

4 hours ago, Fl_3 said:

So, none of the things we were told we would get answers for appeared. 

But, [DE]Steve did at least comment that the feedback we've been giving as a player base is being looked at, but looked at and acted on are two different things.

Time will tell if it makes any difference, but the fact of the matter is that the levels of RNG in finding relics and from them the mods needed to finally vanquish a Lich is too much for a lot of people and needs to be reduced in some way.

The players have provided some good options and opinions, and it would still be nice to actually have DE release an official statement regarding possible updates before the time comes.

I believe more that they're loocking and laughing at our feedback all thing considered...

[klahjn]

Here are my problems with the Lich System:

1.  Lvl100+ enemies for a simple capture mission on earth doesn't make sense. 

2.  Now that my catchmoon is nerfed, affecting my playstyle, these missions are NOT fun

3.  This is the second Charkrunn i've gotten on a lich, I don't want it, and can't do anything about it other than kill it...

4.  The rewards do NOT match the work required to obtain

5.  If I don't want the weapon, converting to give to someone else to kill isn't something I want to do...

6.  Requiem murmurs take WAY TOO LONG.  This is so important i'm going to repeat it three times

7.  Requiem murmurs take WAY TOO LONG.  This is so important i'm going to repeat it three times

8.  Requiem murmurs take WAY TOO LONG.  This is so important i'm going to repeat it three times

9.  The kuva lich has to kill you, why?  because your parazon (flute) doesn't have the right mods in the right order (misplaying a note)

10.  See point #9:  I don't want to sing my lich to sleep.  I want to slit his stupid throat

11.  Considering that after a certain MR, there is nothing to unlock, there really isn't a point in the extra MR on the 5 forma weapons

12.  FIVE forma is a lot to invest in a weapon I didn't want in the first place

13.  Grinding to get those stupid relics, to crack them and maybe get the relics you need is monotonous and boring

14.  The limited use relics is a bad idea, poorly implemented, and needs to be unlimited use.  The lich DIED, how did it take anything from me?  I'm now being punished for doing what the game wants me to do?

15.  With the tapering off of players, due to the 14 points above, it's now becoming harder and harder to actually collect the requiem mods

16.  There is no way to opt out completely from the kuva lich system (because of the previous 15 points)

17.  Some of the kuva weapons aren't even as good as some of the weapons we already have.

 

I get it, this content was supposed to take longer to farm out.  If it was a different game, that was slower paced, it might have been fine.  It's not a difficulty situation, its more of an annoyance than anything.  This is one of those "good on paper, but poorly implemented" situations that need to be rectified.  It's not that any single point is a dealbreaker, but the combined multitude of minor issues quickly becomes one that makes players look elsewhere for their entertainment experiences.  

What can I do about it?  I can play other games.  I can choose not to buy platinum.  I can tell other people looking at playing the game of better options.  I can express my distaste to DE who probably won't even care.  There have been a lot of very bad choices made for this game, that were the exact opposite of the core gameplay mechanics and fundamentals (ie: timegates, rep gates, resource gates).  

We want fast paced, accelerated, fun, engaging and entertaining material.  We want things to make sense, and follow the "laws of the world" of the game we play.  We want an immersive experience, that doesn't require additional apps, guides, videos, etc to get the info we need to continue the game forward.  We want quests, backstory, raids, more parkour elements in the game.  

For instance.... counter strike has a formula for success.  They followed that formula for cs:source and cs:go.  They have massive amounts of players.  Anthem did the opposite.  Look where they are.  Where do I put warframe?  Well....the tides are turning more towards the latter than the former.... but YMMV