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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™

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There are increasing amounts of a holes who refuse to kill their lich, and thereby deny everyone else in the squad a chance to get their lich. these missions only last five minutes, and having one imbecile refuse to kill their lich means no one else has a chance to get the lich. Can we please have liches level up regardless of whether an attempt is made to use requiem mods and kill them? Like if the lich is knocked down three times without requiem mods being used, have him vanish and say something mocking the player who refused to kill him, and then level up. Or better yet, make the lich level up to 5. 

The lich isn't even that hard to kill at lvl 5, yet I encounter several players a day who refuse to kill their lich.

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On 2019-11-12 at 6:28 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Greeting, Lich Hunters!

After the release of the Kuva Lich System in Update 26: The Old Blood, you have been providing us a lot of feedback on what you do and don’t like about hunting your personal Lich. While we have made many improvements over the past week, we have more to come. We are adding the following very soon, based on your feedback:

  • WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.
  • RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod. This gives them some additional use, as well as helping you clean up your inventory.
  • TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!
  • MORE TO COME - We are looking at other ways in which we can make the Kuva Lich system more rewarding and unique, although there is still a lot of internal discussion surrounding the ‘hows’ while maintaining the design intent. More on this as it is finalized.

Monitoring, tweaking and balancing this new process is an ongoing effort, and we rely on your feedback to let us know what you think. Please keep your feedback constructive and succinct, making sure you give suggestions to systems you do not like, while detailing why you do like a system, should that be your opinion.

The hunt continues!
UPDATED: 11.13.19 @ 5.23PM

if the duplicate weapon defines as, as long as the weapon doesn't have the same stat, its a different weapon?
I don't want that tbh, i want weapon duplicate LOCK, until i get at least one weapon of each type, DE.
I Got 6 BS krakens already, and i want my chakkhurr only this whole time.

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Dev Stream tonight, at some time during it they're going to be talking about Old Blood and improvements to commitment, pacing, RNG and co-op issues.

Well guys, what do we want to hear and what do we think we'll hear?

I'm hoping that despite their silence DE have been looking at the feedback threads and the (seemingly) general unhappiness with the state of The Old Blood at the moment listen to their player base and reduce some of that RNG and grind wall to a slightly (only slightly) less hair ripping level.

I'd be happy id they just cut out the lions share of the RNG to be honest.

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En 12/11/2019 a las 0:06, V45H dijo:

when will we be able to donate a non converted lich to the clan as steve mentioned
also great now i have to tear down my dojo again :l
when will we get a proper like map editor style dojo builder where i can move rooms around to better organize rooms for an efficient dojo layout!
i alreay dont know where im going to put the dry dock dont get me wrong i love new rooms but we need more dojo building tools see time splitters map editor

 

You just read my mind. is that having to erase everything to configure the dojo, it surpasses me. This could add a good change to those who already have a dojo for a long time and their rooms are poorly distributed.

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So, none of the things we were told we would get answers for appeared. 

But, [DE]Steve did at least comment that the feedback we've been giving as a player base is being looked at, but looked at and acted on are two different things.

Time will tell if it makes any difference, but the fact of the matter is that the levels of RNG in finding relics and from them the mods needed to finally vanquish a Lich is too much for a lot of people and needs to be reduced in some way.

The players have provided some good options and opinions, and it would still be nice to actually have DE release an official statement regarding possible updates before the time comes.

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4 hours ago, Fl_3 said:

So, none of the things we were told we would get answers for appeared. 

But, [DE]Steve did at least comment that the feedback we've been giving as a player base is being looked at, but looked at and acted on are two different things.

Time will tell if it makes any difference, but the fact of the matter is that the levels of RNG in finding relics and from them the mods needed to finally vanquish a Lich is too much for a lot of people and needs to be reduced in some way.

The players have provided some good options and opinions, and it would still be nice to actually have DE release an official statement regarding possible updates before the time comes.

I believe more that they're loocking and laughing at our feedback all thing considered...

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Here are my problems with the Lich System:

1.  Lvl100+ enemies for a simple capture mission on earth doesn't make sense. 

2.  Now that my catchmoon is nerfed, affecting my playstyle, these missions are NOT fun

3.  This is the second Charkrunn i've gotten on a lich, I don't want it, and can't do anything about it other than kill it...

4.  The rewards do NOT match the work required to obtain

5.  If I don't want the weapon, converting to give to someone else to kill isn't something I want to do...

6.  Requiem murmurs take WAY TOO LONG.  This is so important i'm going to repeat it three times

7.  Requiem murmurs take WAY TOO LONG.  This is so important i'm going to repeat it three times

8.  Requiem murmurs take WAY TOO LONG.  This is so important i'm going to repeat it three times

9.  The kuva lich has to kill you, why?  because your parazon (flute) doesn't have the right mods in the right order (misplaying a note)

10.  See point #9:  I don't want to sing my lich to sleep.  I want to slit his stupid throat

11.  Considering that after a certain MR, there is nothing to unlock, there really isn't a point in the extra MR on the 5 forma weapons

12.  FIVE forma is a lot to invest in a weapon I didn't want in the first place

13.  Grinding to get those stupid relics, to crack them and maybe get the relics you need is monotonous and boring

14.  The limited use relics is a bad idea, poorly implemented, and needs to be unlimited use.  The lich DIED, how did it take anything from me?  I'm now being punished for doing what the game wants me to do?

15.  With the tapering off of players, due to the 14 points above, it's now becoming harder and harder to actually collect the requiem mods

16.  There is no way to opt out completely from the kuva lich system (because of the previous 15 points)

17.  Some of the kuva weapons aren't even as good as some of the weapons we already have.

 

I get it, this content was supposed to take longer to farm out.  If it was a different game, that was slower paced, it might have been fine.  It's not a difficulty situation, its more of an annoyance than anything.  This is one of those "good on paper, but poorly implemented" situations that need to be rectified.  It's not that any single point is a dealbreaker, but the combined multitude of minor issues quickly becomes one that makes players look elsewhere for their entertainment experiences.  

What can I do about it?  I can play other games.  I can choose not to buy platinum.  I can tell other people looking at playing the game of better options.  I can express my distaste to DE who probably won't even care.  There have been a lot of very bad choices made for this game, that were the exact opposite of the core gameplay mechanics and fundamentals (ie: timegates, rep gates, resource gates).  

We want fast paced, accelerated, fun, engaging and entertaining material.  We want things to make sense, and follow the "laws of the world" of the game we play.  We want an immersive experience, that doesn't require additional apps, guides, videos, etc to get the info we need to continue the game forward.  We want quests, backstory, raids, more parkour elements in the game.  


For instance.... counter strike has a formula for success.  They followed that formula for cs:source and cs:go.  They have massive amounts of players.  Anthem did the opposite.  Look where they are.  Where do I put warframe?  Well....the tides are turning more towards the latter than the former.... but YMMV

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Every single point you make has had alternative suggestions posted either in this thread one of the many others about the Kuva Lich grind.

For some reason No member of DE staff will comment (is allowed to comment?) on this subject.

We were promised that answers to some of the questions we asked would be given on the last dev stream, but, when the stream aired all we were told was that Kuva Liches would now drop Kuva, adding yet another way to farm it to the game (Siphons, Survival, Requiem Relics and now Liches)

We can only assume that either any changes to the system are still in discussion, possibly not so easy to implement? Or, DE simply do not give a flying flock about the whole thing.

Personally, I'd like to know if the issues will be covered in the next dev stream, or, failing that would it be possible for us to have some kind of official statement posted here on the forums? It can be a locked thread it doesn't matter, just as long as we're told what's happening in the future of The Old Blood.

I'm asking because the Kuva Lich system (according to [DE]Steve on his own stream) is going to be expanded to Corpus and Infested, and, if those two factions are simply going to be more of the same grind and RNG walls, and no changes are going to be implemented to improve the system at all then this whole thing is going to kick off again when they launch, and the forums seem to be full of unhappy people enough at the moment without adding to them.

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46 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

Every single point you make has had alternative suggestions posted either in this thread one of the many others about the Kuva Lich grind.

For some reason No member of DE staff will comment (is allowed to comment?) on this subject.

this, they say they want us to give suggestions and feedback to improve the system but i highly doubt anyone asked for half of the changes made to the system since it came out, not a single thing people asked for or suggested has been put into the system as far as i know

you could say trading, but even then a bounty system was being talked about for liches from the start, hell i swear steve talked about it on the stream he did just as the update was about to be launched, where you could just put a lich that was after you on a bounty board in your clan dojo and it was out of your hair and you could get another if you wanted, so they already had a way to do it, but that never made it into the game and instead we got the sh1t lich trading we have now, which doesnt help at all since you still have to waste time hunting a sh1tty lich you dont want

Edited by Joltyboi
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On 2019-11-27 at 6:22 PM, Joltyboi said:

this, they say they want us to give suggestions and feedback to improve the system but i highly doubt anyone asked for half of the changes made to the system since it came out, not a single thing people asked for or suggested has been put into the system as far as i know

you could say trading, but even then a bounty system was being talked about for liches from the start, hell i swear steve talked about it on the stream he did just as the update was about to be launched, where you could just put a lich that was after you on a bounty board in your clan dojo and it was out of your hair and you could get another if you wanted, so they already had a way to do it, but that never made it into the game and instead we got the sh1t lich trading we have now, which doesnt help at all since you still have to waste time hunting a sh1tty lich you dont want

One thig is for certain, the things we were promised in Dev streams are nothing like we have now more's the pity.

And DE still refuse to answer any of the players questions.

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A system to add a smal % to the current bonus giving a reason for weak weapons.

 

Current Kuva weapon with 50% toxin merged with an extra kuva weapon that had 22% toxin would result in (maybe) 52% toxin dmg for the weapon (10% of the weapon bonus transfered).

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Thankyou for the fixes your making to the Kuva Lich system.

RNG is still going to be a massive problem, and I know for a fact that there are many players including myself who would like this to be addressed.

I have to say it was disappointing that you didn't mention the issues with RNG during the dev stream last night, but I'm sure people are too busy working on Empyrion and New War to spend too much time working on Old Blood.

We shall expect further improvements in the new year as [DE]Steve stated during the stream.

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I've hardly posted on this forum.  I'm usually content with most of the updates DE makes and don't feel the need to post, but the Kuva Lich system is the first in a long while I've felt the need to post something. I tend to think of myself as more of a casual PS4 player in regards to my lack of interest in endless missions pushing more than 60 mins or enemies past lv 150, however I almost MR 20 and tend to log in everyday so maybe not as casual as most.  I've skimmed over this thread and while there are a lot of points I agree with, there are others I don't, so I will try to give my general impressions and apologize if I am repeating any previous ideas.

Firstly, taking JUST the grind into effect, the system is not as bad as people say it is, although parts can definitely be improved.  I'll include some ideas for each section.

RELICS - Put 3x Relic pack in Syndicate offerings for high standing or at least add to current 3x Relic pack if it isn't already.

For me at least, earning a relic every hour from Kuva floods is fine, as well as from defeated thralls as I get them often enough.  I will however mention that out of 10 - 15 Kuva siphons with 50% chance for a relic, I've received 3.  This can be quite annoying when trying to get a specific relic for a specific mod without spawning a lich or waiting an hour for a new flood.  For someone just trying to get Riven slivers and not hunt liches, this would probably be a nightmare.

MURMURS AND THRALLS - Thralls should drop rewards to ease the grind and keep players coming back.

Believe it or not, but I don't have as much of a problem with this step as others do.  It's a little grindy, especially unlocking the 3rd murmur, but taking out thralls is kind of fun to me and I don't mind getting relics from them.  I will acknowledge that thralls should probably randomly drop 100 Kuva or some other reward to keep people invested in this whole system after they have received all the Kuva weapons and Ephemera they care to collect.  I'll elaborate more on this later.

LICHES AND DIFFICULTY - Stop thrall spawns if a lich is active.  Reduce how often liches teleport.  Make liches more susceptible to neutral elements or brute force.

Taking out level 5 liches surrounded by lv 100 enemies is a challenge, but not too bad for me.  I am MR 19 however, so I can understand lower MR having way too much trouble here.  I've have noticed how high level liches are almost invincible when not using the element they are weak to.  I was literally in a group last night and it took forever to take someone's lich down with all four of us blasting it.  5 mins for one healthbar is way too long, even if it was resistant.  Liches might need to be ranked to player MR?

RANDOM ELEMENTS AND GETTING RID OF LICHES - Read the following.  Some of this has probably been said before.

This is clearly the worst part of this whole system and if future liches follow this same formula, expect a number of disillusioned and frustrated players to give up on the whole thing if not walk away from the game entirely.

Kuva weapons should not have random elemental damage on them.  It should be a set number, or players should have the ability to improve it.  I'm not talking about merging duplicate weapons.  That whole idea is counter productive to me.  "Didn't get the gun you want?  Well keep on farming." is no kind of answer.  Let us feed the weapons Kuva or something similar, maybe dropped in small quantities from thralls or liches.  They are Kuva weapons and I don't see why imbuing them with Kuva would be such a bad idea.  Might even make some sense lore wise.

Let's say you don't want to let us improve the random elements on the Kuva weapons.  Fine, but you better let us get rid of those liches then.  There is nothing more disappointing than spawning a lich with no ephemera, a weapon you don't want or already have, with a low elemental bonus.  Your suck for the next several hours trying to get rid of it, just to convert it with no real benefit, or receive an unwanted or terrible weapon that is going to immediate be sold.  Either let us improve the weapons we have, or give us the ability to reroll, or remove our liches to have another chance at a grind worth doing.

IDEAs ABOUT HOW TO PERFECT THE LICH SYSTEM - These are just ideas that can be improved upon.

Relics drop from thralls, Kuva siphons at 50%, Kuva flood at 100%, and Syndicate rewards for 40k - 50k standing for a 3 pack.

In edition to relics, thralls will randomly drop Kuva, Ayatan sculptures, and endo to reward the grind.

Liches are almost immune to damage they are resistant to, they take reduced damage from neutral sources, but still take good damage from a team of four blasting them.  They are frail to their weaknesses and hurt easily by players prepared to fight them.  They only teleport once every 10 seconds and thralls stop spawning when one is active to cut down on red way points.  If a player refuses to stab a lich 3 times, the lich leaves and takes more of your rewards at the end of the mission.

OPTION 1

Kuva weapons spawn with a set number of elemental damage around 30%.  It can be improved with 5k - 10k Kuva to increase the elemental damage by 10% up to 60% or 3 times costing a total of 15k - 30k Kuva.  I'd even settle with a maximum of 50k Kuva invested as long as we are making progress we can see and not be at the mercy of RNG.

Kuva thralls randomly drop 100 Kuva and liches have 3 options upon defeat.  Convert, Vanquish, or Consume.  Consume dissolves the lich into 10k - 20k Kuva but sacrifices any weapon or ephemera they may have equipped.  This feeds back into the Kuva lich system towards improving previous weapons and would make the grind worth it even if not farming liches for weapons.

OPTION 2

Kuva weapons keep the random elemental damage.

Kuva thralls randomly drop 100 Kuva.  Liches still only have the two options upon defeat, however, on the first attempt to stab a lich a new option is given to "Seal" the lich.  In order to seal a lich a sacrifice of 5k Kuva is made which causes the lich to despawn.  A cutscene plays where Ordis or a Kuva Guardian tells you that the lich is asleep, but not defeated and that the Grineer will not stop hunting you or something.  You are now free to spawn a new lich.

These are my ideas and impressions.  Hopefully DE keeps improving the system for the better.

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8 hours ago, (PS4)SLASH3R_M1KE said:

Convert, Vanquish, or Consume.  Consume dissolves the lich into 10k - 20k Kuva but sacrifices any weapon or ephemera they may have equipped.

Or, to simplify it, add the option at Iron Wake for an NPC to dissolve the weapon you got from a vanquished lich into kuva. There might be an issue with this becoming the meta kuva source, or if it's too low, using the meta kuva source to buff the weapon instead. Adding "tainted kuva" might solve that, as in the weapon dissolves into a few k kuva (less than same time investment in kuva survival) and enough tainted kuva to buff an existing weapon a bit. Or, forego the resource to buff weapons and do it through arcanes. Each weapon dissolves into an r0 arcane, arcanes give +15/30/45/60% at r0/1/2/3, weapon only has element that will be boosted, no number, arcanes are weapon-specific so you can't use brakk arcanes on a seer, etc. Then you need to farm 11 of each weapon for max stats, more if you want different element versions. 11 each of 13 weapons at 2 hours each is 286 hours with near perfect RNG. 7 full time working weeks of content, minimum, and almost all liches would be equally in demand for trading as they give arcanes.

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From Devstream no answer about all the cut content from lich system...

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22 hours ago, Fl_3 said:

Thankyou for the fixes your making to the Kuva Lich system.

What fixes? The only beneficial change that they've done is that you now need to actively create one rather than having one suddenly shoved on you simply because you were in a L20+ grineer mission.

Everything else - the entire legion of problems - has been completely ignored.

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3 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

What fixes? The only beneficial change that they've done is that you now need to actively create one rather than having one suddenly shoved on you simply because you were in a L20+ grineer mission.

Everything else - the entire legion of problems - has been completely ignored.

Pretty much the ability to skip one Lich a week, which is something that the player base asked for, although it would have been nice to have it implemented in a better way that "talk to some minor NPC who we've pretty much ignored since it was introduced into the game as part of Chains of Harrow"

It was pretty much a sarcastic "Thankyou" because once again, DE says they've listened to player feedback only to ignore most of it because of reasons we'll never know because DE refuses to speak to the people responsible for keeping them in the games development business. IE, the players.

Digital Extremes really doesn't seem to give a jot about their reputation these days.

 

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On 2019-12-07 at 11:28 AM, (PS4)SLASH3R_M1KE said:

Relics drop from thralls, Kuva siphons at 50%, Kuva flood at 100%, and Syndicate rewards for 40k - 50k standing for a 3 pack.

Another good possibility here would be to have Requiem relics replace normal ones on Kuva Survival's loot table.

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The biggest flaw is still having the thrall spawn separate from  the rest of the game flow.
Else it would just slowly gather, unlock while you play.


And PLEASE disable the murmur sound. It get's annoying fast.

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i hate RNG..
i hate wasting hours of my time to "murmur" lich that has weapon that i already have. especially if it has a worse stat. what's the point? waste of time.
i hope DE can think about the solution to this problem.

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Le 07/12/2019 à 23:28, (PS4)SLASH3R_M1KE a dit :

There is nothing more disappointing than spawning a lich with no ephemera, a weapon you don't want or already have, with a low elemental bonus.

agree.. multiply by 4 times, even patient people can get angry with this system. some people hate wasting their time.

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What I find as the main problem of kuva lich system is it's lack of integration with starchart, lore and enjoyment - it exists in a vacuum, with  the singular purpuose of delaying our access to some weapons and ephemeras, without offering anything worthwhile "per se" from the experience itself.

If grinding for murmurs was actually engaging and generated its own narrative based on your choices (prioritizing staving off lich attempts at sector domination, or going after its lieutenants, or sistematically sabotaging its bases and ships...), the old blood would be something I'd enjoy playing for the sake of the "travel" itself, not the "destination" (loot).

The system had the potential to make even regular star chart activities in something "personal", narrating your own feud against one of the numerous lich generals of the queen, from the rise of "your" lich, through countless skirmishes to prevent grineers to take a firmer grip on the origin system, to that lich final demise...

what we have offers nothing

As it stands Old Blood is someting to rush trough just to get rid of it, as it's grinding cycle cuts you off of regular star chart activities: you farm murmurs, or you do something else, but get your loot stolen anyway...

Edited by Ikusias

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8 hours ago, Ikusias said:

What I find as the main problem of kuva lich system is it's lack of integration with starchart, lore and enjoyment - it exists in a vacuum, with  the singular purpuose of delaying our access to some weapons and ephemeras, without offering anything worthwhile "per se" from the experience itself.

If grinding for murmurs was actually engaging and generated its own narrative based on your choices (prioritizing staving off lich attempts at sector domination, or going after its lieutenants, or sistematically sabotaging its bases and ships...), the old blood would be something I'd enjoy playing for the sake of the "travel" itself, not the "destination" (loot).

The system had the potential to make even regular star chart activities in something "personal", narrating your own feud against one of the numerous lich generals of the queen, from the rise of "your" lich, through countless skirmishes to prevent grineers to take a firmer grip on the origin system, to that lich final demise...

what we have offers nothing

As it stands Old Blood is someting to rush trough just to get rid of it, as it's grinding cycle cuts you off of regular star chart activities: you farm murmurs, or you do something else, but get your loot stolen anyway...

It's interesting that as the Kingpin/Nemesis was in development for so long that it doesn't feel more integrated into the game. It's been mentioned before that it just feels like some cheap after market bolt on, but, DE has been very thrifty with lore in the past few years. A lot of things have happened in Warframe that have no explanation.

Honestly? I'm not expecting any changes to the Lich system soon, during the last Dev Stream [DE]Scott did state that changes will be coming to the Lich system, but, not until the new year.

Notes have been made Digital Extremes, and I (along with many other players?) am awaiting your improvements to the Lich system.

I do have to wonder though, why throwing out more (according to the forum posts I've read this morning so far) unfinished, unpolished content is more important than fixing the unfinished, unpolished content that you released previously?

Can we have a reason for that?

Because a lot of us would like to see a few answers from you.

 

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