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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™

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It's Forma dump season bois/gals it's what it's we can't blame them :D 

4 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!

Here's your skip to RNG why fix it then? (like parazon mod pack and mod drop chance booster wasn't p2w enough) I need yet to see its final iteration and restrictions for it not becoming another riven market with ludicrous plat values on GODs stat weapons. On the side note so much for any sense of achievement wearing your lucky earned Ephemera.

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For many players, this change does absolutely NOTHING.

RNG reduction is pitiful. ONE duplicate weapon is taken out of the pool. Do I care in the slightest that my last Lich didn't give me a Kohm when this one gives me my 6th? Of course not. Reducing the pool of weapons from 13 to 12 is basically nothing for people trying to collect weapons.

Recycling requiem mods is nice, but still annoying RNG. At the very least, if you recycle 4 of the same defile requiem mod it should produce the charged version of that mod.

Trade your Lich OH but only within a clan. Screw you small clans. Screw you people who worked to decorate a full dojo and research every project including Hema, your clanmates are inactive so you can either delete your clan or miss out on the weapons still!

Just give players some control over the weapon that drops without locking it behind RNG, of forcing people to abandon their clans.

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so... we will only be able to trade liches once we "capture" them? can we drop all pretense and include a way to make em level and maybe a tournament to make liches fight against liches? (like, seriously, it would be pretty fun to watch)

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When can we have our converted Liches claim tax on planets as a far better version than the crappy system of extractors? Make the gains slower sure, but at least it won't be waiting 4 hours to get 5k Nano Spores when I'm already capped at 999,999 of them. I'd much rather wait 24 hours to get a wide variety of drops in smaller portions.

Edited by Jokie155
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Sorry to say Bear, this update isn't cutting it much for me.

There's still nothing said about what you can do with inferior roll duplicate weapons, which is pretty demoralizing to get. Can they at least be fed to a higher roll weapon to boost the percentage stat by a small flat percentage? "Valence Addition" or whatever it could be called.

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3 minutes ago, Jokie155 said:

When can we have our converted Liches claim tax on planets as a far better version than the crappy system of extractors? Make the gains slower sure, but at least it won't be waiting 4 hours to get 5k Nano Spores when I'm already capped at 999,999 of them. I'd much rather wait 24 hours to get a wide variety of drops in smaller portions.

Yes, definitely we should send our liches to planets with a chance to take over the planet in our own instance, and earn free resources from that planet for the amount of players running missions there.

Edited by Xazur

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3 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

Oh, nice. Now then i want to get specific weapon, i will have to deal with 1/12 instead of 1/13.

Let me check math. So for 90% sure (mean 1 of 10 players will still be reducted) It changed from 0.9=1- (1-1/13)^x X=28.8 to 0.9=1- (1-1/12)^x X=26.5 runs.

I believe that's a great reduction!

P.S. Do you love trading, Bear? Will you be happy to read another S#&$ ton of offers WTS impact 25% Seer only 5000platinum? I don't want to play trade chat! I want progression.

I want to at least be able pick a weapon before run! Invent some spy rumors, or whatever like syndicate standing with murmurs, so you trade converted Lich for a special badge, witch garantee spawn of specific weapon. And even this still mean you need to do it over and over again to get a desent bonus.

Same with ephemera. I don't know, how somebody even get idea to join damage bonus with effects. But what was bad, bad, bad idea. That's even worst than a random weapon with a random %. Random on top of the random, with some random addition in the middle is already not intertating much. But pushing players to farm something completely useless just to CHANCE of getting cosmetic. That's evil!

Is there somekind of pain-meter in your office? So, at one day you get alarm "players stop suffering from a Riven system" and RNG department in panic just invent as many mechanics as they could. And, before they have a chance to expain, all of this was added to the game at the same time. Anyway, it's feels exactly like this. BTW, killing me becouse i guess wrong is really creative! If somebody ask me to put RNG and punishing players for a right behavior I couldn't have invented anything what do it in a same time!

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Ok im done with the rant now constructive feedback 

1. Make coop worth something 2018/19 show us even worst game designs are better with friends

2. Decide on RNG part that must go away:

get rid of weapon acquisition by simply moving it onto larvas wearing weapon with which it will be spawned as lich 

- get rid of RNG % values of weapon boost or narrow it common/uncommon/rare values like 15%/30%/60% 

3. Remove Ayatan amber stars from req.relics i bet you already have enough statistics that shows how useless this PH item there is 

4. Add more functions for converted liches E.g.:

- make them works as resource drones or boost to mission rewords similar to those how they worked when they steal from us as enemys

- fix their AI for 60sek ally all it does is back-walking at you, deal next to 0 dmg on mid-high lvl missions (if it has range weapon without proximity safety), and it dosen't use ability's

 

Edited by moonfallen
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Hello @[DE]Bear, @[DE]Megan

 

This is my feedback for the current state of the Kuva Lich system, and some concepts to help the system moving forward.

To start off, a few of my clanmates have refused to play Warframe ever since the Old Blood update, due to the Kuva Lich system. They saw it as unavoidable RNG grind that literally punished you for not grinding, and I can't say I blame them. The Kuva Lich concept is a good one, but an unrefined one, and I'm glad to see that changes are being made.

After playing through the update, getting my own Kuva Lich and vanquishing it, here is what I have to offer:

1 - Incentivize Co-Op Play

Warframe is a co-op game, but the Kuva Lich system nearly forces you play solo. There are separate, disjointed nodes that you have to play in order to get your Lich to spawn, and most of these nodes don't offer anything in return for a group. With the latest patches, you and the rest of the team reduced the amount of cooperative interactions that happened on these nodes, reducing the incentive to play with others. I think you should be going in the opposite direction. Here are some examples:

  • Remove Kuva Lich controlled missions and make Kuva Thralls appear on the occupied planet on any currently active mission
    • Kuva Thralls can spawn into the mission at their increased level based on the rank of your Lich. Ex; Kelpie 30-40, Thralls 60-70
    • Kuva Thralls replace Eximus enemies on the planet, making them universal threats to the group
  • Kuva Thralls are universal, allowing all players to Mercy them for Murmur progress
    • Murmurs are shared between players, incentivizing cooperative play
  • Kuva Liches and Thralls drop kuva and rare resources of the currently occupied planet
    • The amount of kuva and rare resources increase with the level of the Lich

 

2 - An Undying Enemy

Currently, the Kuva Lich doesn't live up to its name. It only rises from the dead once! If Kuva Liches are supposed to be this somewhat "continuous" threat, they first need to be able to die more than once. These ideas have been circling around the forums ever since the release of the Old Blood, so I hope they get added soon. Here is my interpretation of the idea:

  • Remove the "autofail" mechanic from attempting to kill a Kuva Lich
    • This isn't fun. Period. Its not challenging, its cheap, and it feels incredibly anticlimactic. Please remove it, or make it into a "Quick Time Event" that we can fail.
  • Allow players to progress through the Kuva Lich fight without the correct Requiem Mods equipped
    • This would help progress the player through the grind of the Kuva Lich, without making them feel cheated.
    • It lets you know what you got wrong or right in your configuration.
    • Gets rid of the "Suicide to Lich" trend that isn't very fun or constructive.
  • "Killing" a Kuva Lich without the correct sequence causes the Lich to "die", but it will come back stronger after a period of time.
    • Scaling, rank, and influence work how they do now, but 'killing" a Lich on a planet clears that planet of all influence.
    • Kuva Lich shows as "deceased" in the menu screen, with a timer showing when they will rise again.
    • Kuva Liches drop kuva or Riven Slivers, giving the team more incentive to kill them.

 

3 - Requiem Relics

This has been one of the biggest criticisms of this system since the start, with the RNG on top of grind on top of RNG etc. It wasn't a bad idea to reuse the Relic system, but that being said, it needs to be as good as the Relic system. The relic system works because relics are easy to come by, and there are many avenues to acquiring relics. Warframe works best when there are multiple paths to completing an objective, and the Requiem system does not offer that. Currently, there is only one path towards acquiring Requiem Relics, and the Requiem Fissures are very limited. So here is a way to go about making the Requiem system better and more engaging for the player.

  • Requiem Relics can be made from regular Relics with kuva
    • Each Requiem Relic corresponds to the type of relic you use. Ex; Lith + 500 kuva = Requiem 1, Meso + 500 kuva = Requiem 2
    • This way even if you don't get a Requiem Relic on a Kuva Siphon, you can make a Requiem Relic with the kuva you just acquired.
  • Requiem Relics can be opened on regular Fissure Missions
    • Perhaps you want to get a Requiem mod for your Lich, but your friends want to farm for Prime parts instead. This way you can do both
    • Kuva Fissures also allow for non Requiem Relics

 

4 - Kuva Weapon Issues

Kuva Weapons are kind of confusing right now, because players want them, but once they have all of them there is no reason for duplicates. Duplicate weapons are an issue, which you are trying to address, but just combining them wont help fix the problem. There have been many suggestions on how to fix this issue, so here is my take on it:

  • Allow Duplicate Kuva Weapons to be dissolved for kuva
    • This kuva number should be pretty substantial, due to the effort put forth by the player.
  • Allow for Kuva Weapons to increase their elemental bonus up to the maximum cap
    • This can be done with either a Duplicate Kuva Weapon, increasing the bonus by 5% for each duplicate weapon.
  • Allow Kuva Weapons to be traded for other Kuva Weapons only
    • Can help with multiple duplicates between friends.
    • Allows for Kuva Weapons to still remain as "special" items

 

5 - Kuva Hunter Bundle

We know that Warframe is a Free To Play game, but the Kuva Hunter bundle was a step too far. If the system was better than what it currently is, this bundle wouldn't have been seen as an issue, but the excessive grind on top of the punishing Kuva Lich system made this feel almost like a necessity. Which is bad. This bundle felt like a slap to the face for anyone who was looking forward to fighting the Kuva Lich, and a final nail in the coffin for those who has already decided that the system was bad before even trying it. This bundle says to me that you knew just how tedious and unrefined the system was, so you wanted us to bypass it entirely so we wouldn't have to play through it. Its equivalent to being able to buy Focus from the market for plat. This, more than anything, seems like a step in the wrong direction, so please reconsider how you release these bundles in the future.

 

Please take this feedback into consideration when evolving this system. The Kuva Liches have the potential to be an amazing addition to Warframe, and I hope to see it grow through healthy communication between the developers and the community. Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I am excited to see where Warframe heads next.

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I hope that in keeping with the spirit of the KINGPIN system we had hoped for, when will we see Super Liches that are clan and alliance related. WOULD  be neat to see an alliance lich protected by different clan liches, which summon cell members personal liches. 

E N D G A M E

😂

not sure what rewards could be.. maybe an item that allows for valence combining instead of transfer. Or i dunno what but yeah lets get some group effort action goin here. 

If we ever see that though, i would like to see alliance and clan liches in player profiles. Personal too i guess. 

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Skill based Lich killing/combat when? It's not sensible to have the "farming" for the mod order be a game of guessing. I get killed (and in non-solo play people even try to push me to that) for something I have 0 influence over. That's bad design right there, sorry.  You should be somehow able to chase you Lich off by "killing it" witht he wrong order or at the very least get a chance to interrupt his instakill reliably(aka no RNG included, we haev SO MUCH MORE RNG than we ever could ask for, you really need to "clear your name", so to say, from that bad habit 😕 )

 . 

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4 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:
  • WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

 

chance to get one less weapon - one out of 13 - not much of reduction to RNG and overall grind at all, just a psychological bandaid to avoid frustration from getting same weapon in a row

Quote

RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod

totally insignificant, once you have relics (and btw thanks for making relics drop from the Thrals, this really cuts the grind) mods are not hard top get, just 5 (or 10 if you are really unlucky) min in Kuva fissure, why even bother implementing this, another psychological bandaid I guess so people wouldn't feel as bad about mods getting depleted (you'd still need to farm new mods and likely get more than you need before you obtain all the types, so once again this new feature is pointless)

Quote

TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich....................

Converted so there is still no solution of getting rid of a lich you dont want, you still have to grind through it, this is purely to fuel the platinum market and make people pay to skip the grind for particular weapons, pay2win as usual...   I guess this means a decisive 'NO' to reducing the RNG and grind because you have to make them grindy and low chance to obtain what you want to make the plat trades work, I get it

 

The main issue you have to solve is anti-coop mechanic of having only a single lich spawn at a time and owners not killing them - liches have to go away even if ignored by the owner (there's been may good ideas how to implement this) otherwise you just force people to play solo

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Thanks, but the only way you're gonna make me want to deal with this amount of uninteresting grind and unreasonable RNG is with new, interesting and fun gameplay elements. And since kuva liches barely have any of that, I think I'll pass.

Edited by Amazerath
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4 hours ago, Xydeth said:

keep going dude. i just had a streak of kohm (i hate kohm btw) duplicates and now suddenly my 1st seer dropped....56% radiation innate.

the next one might finally finally be quartakk....probably the lowest rolls for eternity since i wanted this weapon only from the very beginning aside of the sadness kuva ogris currently is....

There was a theory that damage which killed the larvling is directly tied to a weapon Lich will get. 13 non-fancy damage types, 13 Kuva Weapons out there...

Would certainly explain why people are getting the same weapons all over again — using the same tactic / the same favourite weapon every time. 

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Make it so that wrong requiem order results in the Lich's death, but he just revives a few seconds later and escape the fight, so his "lich" status is more meaningful. You may still keep the melee thrown, since they're part of the regular moveset anyways. But otherwise good changes.

As for the Lich trade, does that mean the Lich becomes an enemy to the player received them?

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Just now, ShadowTony said:

There was a theory that damage which killed the larvling is directly tied to a weapon Lich will get. 13 non-fancy damage types, 13 Kuva Weapons out there...

Would certainly explain why people are getting the same weapons all over again — using the same tactic / the same favourite weapon every time. 

I used an Astilla and got the Archwing weapon, so I'm not sure about that. But it would be good if the larvling wielded the weapon,  so you can choose if you want to kill them or not

Edited by HolySeraphin

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5 hours ago, LSG501 said:

No change to the necessary wasting of 5 forma for full xp from kuva weapons due to them going to rank 40 for no real reason.... funny that....

RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - Personally I'd prefer their limited use to just be totally removed or at the very least increased quite considerably over the current 3 uses, it would lower the overall amount of rng and grind necessary far more than this change will...

Oh no, you have to get one requiem mod per lich on average. SO grindy. The horror.  Whatever will you do without the 2-5 minutes that takes.

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Lich trading has to be outside of clans, please, or you're just unnecessarily penalising us solo players 😞

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Really showing how out of touch with player they are with these changes. You know what would be better? No random bullS#&$ on these weapons to begin with, damage is the same across the board, also make them tradable. Done. Two make the requiem nonsense not have charges, also put the fissures on more nodes. Done. Also don't disrespect players times.

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Keep thinkin hard DE, its not a bad system but you have your work cut out for you. (Not as easy as the Eidolons, but definitely as much potential).

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The lich system is very good at this point and these upcoming changes sound great. I would also recommend to think about two more things:

1) Make the requiem relics refinement consume kuva instead of void traces.

Kuva makes more sense lorewise and it would be much more balanced in the scope of the whole game. We are loosing void traces on a content that is disconnected from T1-T4 void fissures, so we have to decide what content we want to do. That's not good. If it's the kuva instead of the traces, the lich system will not be halting our progress in the rest of the game.

2) Change the way you get to rank 40 of Kuva wapons... with Kuva Forma.

Kuva Froma would reset the weapon to rank 0 and unlock all additional 10 ranks. It should be expensive to build, so we have to work for it, but the current system of feeding normal formas into the weapon is weird and kinda wasteful.

My point is that you basically have to change the system in the way, so we must spend a lot of kuva, which would be great. You could then return the kuva to the droptable of the thralls and/or in other places.

P.S. You definitely need to add a few kuva weapons every few weeks the same way you did the "Tenno reinforcements" in the old days. Reskining and tweaking stats for already existing weapons and adding them to the lich droptable is a good way to keep us playing this system.

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1)Using 2 buttons for the glaive is just useless. At this point just remove the dual wielding stance and just hold E to launch it and the alt fire to make it explode.

2) I can understand the zenistar nerf but while using operator to activate a capsule or something else, your disc return to you wasting your combo counter and it's just stupid.

Edited by bibmobello

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What measures are you putting in place to address people trading their Liches with rare Ephemeras / 70%+ weapon bonuses to other people for thousands of plat, or are we just rolling with it, despite Riven experiences?...

If Valence transfers can add damage bonuses up to 80% this would kill two birds with one stone - duplicates are more welcome and less incentive for crazy "God Lich Roll" trading that will inevitably pop up. 

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23 minutes ago, pook-pook said:

Lich trading has to be outside of clans, please, or you're just unnecessarily penalising us solo players 😞

Then it becomes the new Riven market, but even clan-only trading still would have issues. Trading Liches in general seems like an unwise idea. 

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