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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™

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39 minutes ago, ShadowTony said:

There was a theory that damage which killed the larvling is directly tied to a weapon Lich will get. 13 non-fancy damage types, 13 Kuva Weapons out there...

Would certainly explain why people are getting the same weapons all over again — using the same tactic / the same favourite weapon every time. 

7 damage types, and they are tied to which Warframe you have on when you kill Larvling, no ties to damage type dealt. Look it up on the wiki, you can farm for specific damage bonuses with specific warframe groups. 

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@[DE]Bear Its clear the people in charge are 10 billion % incompetent and IGNORE ALL feedback, but here goes anyway

Hopefully the trading will be Lich for Lich & not Lich for Plat (Rivens 2.0)

Then again this trading system seems wack, since you need to convert before you can trade. It doesn't really help you if you have another duplicate w/ lower stats or a weapon w/ low stats that no one wants. You still have to put effort into clearing or converting a lich for a weapon that won't be rewarding.

Kuva lich weapons should simply be standardized at 60% buffs, no RNG


4 Defiled Requiem Mod's for 1 RM is good?
If it remains RNG for RNG that decays after 3 uses, can Relics just be removed and mods be the rewarded w/ decay or keep the relics and make the mods permanent. I think that will go a long way.

 

As for "you can't get the same weapon straight after" how about on every third?
I'm really liking Frozenballz suggestion after reading the dev workshop as it would help with the duplicates & the feeling that players are having. 

"A solution for the kuva situation- There are 13 weapons. Make it so that the first 13 drops from kuva liches are guaranteed unique weapon drops in a random order and still affected by RNG for the bonus% stat they get. this way, people get the weapons for collection and then after the 13th weapon, people can then do the grind to minmax and get their perfect rolled weapon. This way you cater to the casuals as well as minmaxers, and everyone can get all the weapons." -

 

 

Murmurs NEED to be awarded to groups to incentivize group play

And lastly, UI needs a HUGE update to toggle stats on rivens, since incompetent devs thought having different dispos on the same weapon family was a good idea

Now we cannot see what the actual stats are, until AFTER we rerolled or bought a riven with plat

THANKS FOR SCAMMING THE COMMUNITY DE

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5 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera.

Gonna be honest, really not a fan of this. Why? Because fundamentally, Kuva Liches conversion was introduced so that they may aid the tenno at their very moment of need, not to be used like some trading card game where they're on the shelf ready to be sold off. What happened to the whole idea of this nemesis system where people could build an empire of liches and having that risk of a converted lich suddenly backstabbing you or perhaps coming in to save you with spells at times most needed. Also, a lich lounge would be great where you could interact with your converted liches and get drunk on grokdrul with them. So many possibilities! Instead you made them into a trading scheme...

Please DE, hope you make the right choice. Thanks.

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5 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod. This gives them some additional use, as well as helping you clean up your inventory.

Nice! I really appreciate this changes, thank you.

 

Edited by -Kyle-

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1 hour ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

Actually have our scanner with the Data-Parse Widget show us the specific Liche's elemental weaknesses and resistances instead of the standard Grineer Armor stats.

That's actually a cool idea.

1 hour ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

- Show the name of the Liche's owner on the HP bar when it shows up in a mission, or add a little note on their "X to kill" prompt saying the owner's name.

Would be nice to have. Would make it easier to know if it's your lich or someone else's. Also would make it easier to tell who on your team is ignoring their lich so you can more easily call them out in chat.

1 hour ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

- Have kill attempts give at least SOME murmur progress to other squadmates like it used to, even if only half of what it gives to the Liche's owner.

Am I the only person that doesn't care about this? I'll stop and help someone just because. And I haven't had too many problems with people simply stopping to help me too. I don't find this to be necessary. The main benefit this would provide would be the reduce the grind, but I think the whole idea is to keep players busy for awhile. Seems fine as is to me. People have complained that DE needs to add more reasons to encourage cooperative gameplay - I think there's already enough reason to do these publicly - faster and easier missions. Not to mention having people there to help you kill your lich. *shrug*
 

1 hour ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

- Reduce the required Forma to max out Kuva weapons from 5 (+2 levels per Forma) to 2 (+5 levels per Forma). It was cute when Paracesis did it on its own, it's not fun when a whole series of weapons does it.

I also do not need this. The extra 1K affinity is meaningless unless you are chasing mastery rank. And chasing mastery rank is meant to take awhile anyway. It has negligible impact on moment-to-moment gameplay. If your concern is of the +10 mod capacity...then just forma it like normal and savor the fact that it even HAS bonus mod capacity and you don't need as many forma to fit all your mods into it! This like asking for extra icing on the cake. Even with just 2 forma, the extra 4 mod capacity is already a sweet deal in my opinion. 🙂

 

1 hour ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

Reduce the required murmur progress on the 3rd Requiem clue to at least half of what it is now, or ideally make it equal to the 1st and 2nd clue's requirement.

Again, just asking to get the candy easier. There's already candy, if it's not worth getting to, let other players do the work and pay them in platinum for the rewards you're unwilling to work for. Boom, problem solved.
 

 

1 hour ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

- Add some system to also know the Requiem order beyond just trial and error.

I don't agree with this. That's the whole point of the system. To roll the dice. Are people really this upset about being bent over their liches knee?
 

 

1 hour ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

- Add a few more personality types to female Liches, the standard one is getting annoyingly repetitive.

I agree with this. Both for the male and female ones. Hopefully more personalities will come in the future. Right now it seems like there is only two: Male and Female. Sometimes they have a helmet on and sometimes they don't - so visually they look different but their personalities are the same every time. Maybe add new voice lines and keep the old voice lines and the new voice lines completely separate so you have a difference in personality - obviously use different voice actors or have the old voice actors change their voices and take on different personalities.

 

1 hour ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

- Give us the option to manually select and bring a converted Kuva Lich with us on missions.

Would be cool but it feels really low priority to me. I'm fine with the way it is now. It's a nice little surprise when the lich shows up.

 

===============================================================================

 

1 hour ago, Zoh_Veldae said:

- Slowing down the level up process of Liches or at least add some benefits to leveling up the Lich, such as raising their dropped weapon's bonus up to a cap according to their level.

Disagree. I don't want the leveling to slow down, in fact I want it to speed up.
 

 

Edited by Flying_Scorpion

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19 minutes ago, lexandritte said:

7 damage types, and they are tied to which Warframe you have on when you kill Larvling, no ties to damage type dealt. Look it up on the wiki, you can farm for specific damage bonuses with specific warframe groups. 

You didn't understand me.

What I said was: "damage you deal to Larvling --> Weapon".

What you said was "Warframe you use when killing Larvling --> Elemelon bonus on Weapon". 
Different things. 

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6 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:
  • WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

 

Why even bother with this Rubbish. Honestly DE you have been given some fantastic, brilliant suggestions to fix even this one glaring issue, and you still insist on dragging your feet. What good is getting another duplicate weapon. I kill Lich X, get the Karak, great I don't get a Karak for my next lich. I get a Drakgoon instead, which is a Duplicate from 3 lich's ago. What is the point? Crikey.

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3 minutes ago, ShadowTony said:

You didn't understand me.

What I said was: "damage you deal to Larvling --> Weapon".

What you said was "Warframe you use when killing Larvling --> Elemelon bonus on Weapon". 
Different things. 

Re-read it. Still a strange theory. I don't think it checks out, too many inconsistencies. 

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Do we have any news regarding the Lich ephemeras? So far I've hunted 22 Liches with most being duplicates with no ephemeras. I understand the need for the grind but some form of RNG protection for it would greatly help as well considering we have 7 different ones. 

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Initially I thought the Kuva Lich system was too grindy - particularly with the elemental rolls on the weapons. But I would be okay with the elemental rolls if I could infuse a low roll into a high roll and bring the high roll up by a factor of even 1% ( so for example a 54% weapon up to 55% - NOT increasing the cap to 61%). Even just 1% would be fine. i think the problem is that when you are grinding and you get the same weapon with a low roll again and again, you don't SEE yourself making any progress towards the high roll. If you could at least extract 1% at a time from your low roll weapons, then you could see at least SOME progress and feel like there's a trickle of reward. A 1% gain would be tiny in terms of overall time spent engaging in this content wouldn't it? It would also help save some of the outliers (the really, REALLY unlucky players) who will get the same weapon something like 10 times in a row. You know there's going to be someone who gets that awful luck. Throw them a bone. 

Anyway, if that's the way it worked, I'd be okay with the grind. I think it would be fine.

Edited by Flying_Scorpion

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Looks promising!  I would also like to see murmur adjustments (lower third tier please) and co-op incentive to lich hunt together.  A way to increase the weapon percent would also be nice.  

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just to clarify:


If I just want to complete all the weapons, from now on I should just convert all the litches I'll get with duplicate weapons? In order to be able to trade it for another, different litch with another weapon right? Sound great! 🙂

Keeping the trade locked to just litches for litches would mean that you still had to work for it, yet not punished by RNG. (having 9 dupes have already sapped my enthusiasm to play). It will also keep it away from the platinum market. Please do not make the system between clanmates only, as it will alienate a lot of the smaller clans/ smaller groups of players.  

Edited by seventhwalker

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6 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor

That simply means they have 12 other chances to flood you with duplicates. Plenty partners made a lot of good suggestions, listen to them. This rng heavy system to make content look artificially lengthy is just stupid.

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The weapon RNG reduction is an absolute joke.  If you get weapon 1 and 2 you can still keep getting weapon 1 and 2 and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that this is a fake 'feel good' mechanic.

Requiem recycling seems like a pretty decent idea.

You keep saying trade your lich but how exactly is that going to work?  You convert a lich, trade it to another player, it becomes hostile to them and they have to kill it to get the weapon?  Gameplay wise it seems that the initial player still has to go through all the crap grind for a weapon that they don't want or need and lorewise it seems horrifying.  You make a lich your buddy, trade it to another tenno who then kills them for their stuff?

Does 'maintaining design intent' mean 'how can we get these losers to pump dozens of hours for some weapon upgrades and ephemeras?'  If you want to make liches rewarding and unique all you have to do is to look around and see the posts where people have much better ideas.  Larvaling holds the weapon that the lich will 'kuvafy', to convert a lich you only need to know one murmur, make murmur farm less of a chore, don't make liches go indifferent when you know their requiems so you need to spend more time to get them mad again.

Well done though, if liches can be traded for platinum you just created the new riven market.  Can't wait to see the WTS 60% bonus kohm with ephemera 5,000 plat.

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There is a major lore inconsistency. When my converted lich spawns, he threatens to do something bad with reproductive organs of the enemies. Well, the thing is, the enemies should not have any functional reproductive organs according to the lore. Grineer are cloned, corpus are robots, and infested devour their prey, at least that is what our operator constantly tells us. It might be possible that the lich is completely mad but being grineer, he should not even know about reproductive organs as they are completely redundant in all enemy fractions. DE, pls fix.

Edited by akots

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These changes are pathetic and barely attempt to fix the underlying issues with this system, and this cockamamie trading is clearly only designed to pad out grind and incentivize trading (i.e. plat sales) so it's basically sneaky monetization through low drop chances. This whole update was half-baked and this Kuva Lich system is stillborn if we're only going to get weak design-by-committee changes like these. Since this is a "dev workshop" it's safe to assume that these are also going to be the final time the system will get any major changes until the next time it's touched upwards from a year from now, so once again you've added a grindy, unrewarding, gameplay loop which is disjointed from the rest of the game but somehow also adds another randomized item scheme which feeds into trading.

Even just completing one lich was such a poor experience that I'm now actually taking a break from the game and not at all excited for whatever half-baked patch you push out the door and call "Rail Jack".

Edited by Ampoth

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@[DE]Bear Please make converted lich’s have a purpose.

They rarely show up, and when they do their damage is so low they accomplish nothing.

You either get a gun or a lich, if lich’s don’t do anything than all you have to work for is the gun, which is why it feels so bad right now to get a duplicate.

I’m sure there are big plans for allied lich’s in railjack but they need a purpose now. Make them companions, if you play solo let them replace players as super buffed out specters—anything really.

Edited by Doppelhan
Forgot to add [de]bear

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6 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:
  • WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

ok, so while this is a step in the right direction, to be honest, it is probably the absolute smallest step that could have been made. I hesitate to even call it a step, it's more like a lean in the right direction. While this is great for the poor layer who had these weapons spawns:

  • Kuva Karak
  • Kuva Karak
  • Kuva Seer
  • Kuva Karak
  • Kuva Karak
  • Kuva Karak

They will do nothing for the many more who's roles look like this:

  • Kuva Khom
  • Kuva Kraken
  • Kuva Khom
  • Kuva Sheldig
  • Kuva Khom
  • Kuva Ayanga
  • Kuva Khom
  • Kuva Kraken
  • Kuva Khom
  • Kuva Ayanga
Quote
  • RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod. This gives them some additional use, as well as helping you clean up your inventory.

That's fine, the system needed more RNG to it /s

Quote
  • TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!

Originally, I thought the lack of respect for a player's time was unintentional. This has me questioning that assumption. So in order to trade, you have to put in 3-4 hours work, and the other player needs to do 3-4 hours work and when you trade you both then need to put in another 3-4 hours work? You don't need to pad the system with forced gameplay. Bare minimum time to get all the weapons without dupes is around 45 hours, and that is not including the time it takes to put the 5 forma in. Give players some way to recycle an active lich.

Quote
  • MORE TO COME - We are looking at other ways in which we can make the Kuva Lich system more rewarding and unique, although there is still a lot of internal discussion surrounding the ‘hows’ while maintaining the design intent. More on this as it is finalized.

I sincerely hope that conserved liches and and their mediocre-at-best performance is included with this.

Quote

The hunt continues!

Not for me it doesn't.

Edited by GrimKonstantin

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7 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

This is most certainly insufficient. There are 13 weapons. You are basically increasing immediate chance to get what people may want from 1/13 to 1/12, which is an extremely minor tweak. Something like past 3 weapons may be way more reasonable. In the end, the grind may last longer for those who are looking to increase the stats, but at this moment, the majority is struggling to acquire even 4 or 5 different weapons or so it seems.

Now, there is another issue of lich perks. I had a lich with Fear of Children. Well, I decided to check it out and attacked it with operator. Despite all the blah-blah he was saying, he pretty cunningly attacked and killed (banished?) the operator. Isn't he supposed to run away or at least stay still paralyzed with fear? It was a solo mission, so, no, no other lich hunters anywhere on the map.

Edited by akots

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6 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

A Lich ally's contribution to gameplay is largely insignificant. The Lich will only show up at random when player health is very low and will leave after only 2 minutes. Lich allies need to be far more reliable to justify the grind spent obtaining them. Allow a Lich ally to be summoned via a deployable beacon.

Oh-ho, a new idea, honestly they could make the beacon craftable like how air support works, hek, they could even make a smidge of Kuva as a resource to make them.

I say they should be on comparable to a mid to high end specter, they could even make it possible to mod the converted Lich's weapon to keep them semi-competitive if slightly limited by the weapon they spawned with (maybe even make it possible to Valence transfer to the convert's weapon for another use for spares).

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6 часов назад, CrimsonPenguino сказал:

How about no. The nice part about this system was the fact that you had to actually do this stuff on your own and farm it yourself. With that being a thing, it just makes it another thing that can be monetized. Now people can save their liches that have crazy bonuses on their weapon and trade it to someone for a ton of plat. That is a horrible idea. Incoming rivens 2.0

It’s a problem very simple to eliminate. Trade goes only on another lich or on resource/mod/anything else, no plat allowed.

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My thoughts so far:
First off: None of you actually care about our feedback. Changes suggested won't be implimented, or will be done in a halfassed manner that won't make any real diffrence and the system will go on the orphaned pile like salvage, assault, universal medallions that aren't actually universal, conclave, vauban's surviveability, gunblade stances, etc...

With all that said.

* Give us something to do with liches that nobody will want. The liches with a 25% impact because your'e hunting that one ephemira and that one didn't have it. Nobody in your clan will want it, or if you're in a solo clan you're SOL. Give us something we can put those liches towards doing. Maybe assign them to specific rooms for tasks. Like speeding up research, or speed up construction, or if posted in the command center allow altering the odds a lich will spawn, or buffing murmur gains, or even act as minor resource boosters when assigned to the observitory (like, maybe a 10% resource gain per lich capped at 50% to avoid directly competing with boosters.) What i really want are liches that just kinda hang out in the dojo and goof off, entities that give the place a sense of life, and... frankly we could use as captura props or NPCs.

* Allow bad sequences for the parazon to kill the lich. Have them slump over and die laughing. 'You can't kill me... I'm Imortal. Just. Like. You.' Then the levelup animation we currently have. That ties into the 'we keep killing them' idea lore keeps suggesting but we don't see.

* Have lich levelups DO something. Level 1 they get one ability and no status resistances, then each levelup on gives them another ability and x% status resistance, til we get to what their current mechanics are. That way you get a feeling this thing gets stronger over time and you have a real sense that 'oh god i'm not figuring this out and it just keeps getting stronger.'

* Tying into the above. As the lich levels up have the drop tables for their planets gain a set of modifiers based on the lich, its elements, and level. That way you aren't just picking a progenetor on weapon the lich gives, or ephimera, but also the potential drops. This could theoretically give us away to farm mutagen samples (NO IT IS NOT RAINING IN THE DERELICT STEVE) or other resources that might otherwise be rare or annoying. 

* Give end of mission murmur rewards. Maybe ten per mission? SOmething that lets people who just blow thorugh missions casually gain murmur.

* Have a chance for the lich to show up outside of the territory it controls if it hits max level, but at the cost of it not having its status immunity or immunity to armor stripping, or whatever makes them so damned annoying to fight. Lich shows up with a small crowd of its thralls in random mission you're hosting and unless the other players attack, it ignores them or doesn't really leave the tile it spawns in, that way newbies aren't mauled to death. The lich being weakened when outside of its zone of control would help to balance the fact it can show anywhere.

* I want the liches as an option for railjack crew. C'mon make it happen that'd be a good use for 'liches nobody wants.

* Give spy missions in lich controlled territory a chance to have requiem mods in the spy vault rewards. Ditto sabotage caches. 10% chance. This 2% or worse drop rate business is insanity. Stoppit.

* This one's harder but I'm tired of 'male lich goofball reject from borderlands.' 'Female lich blah blah blah rar look how smart and calculating i sound fear me.' I realize voice acting is expensive but we need more personality types because I'm on my fifth lich and four of them ahve been the same set of female voice lines and it's getting annoying.

* Allow us to spawn converted liches in captura as unique background NPC dummies. pause time and click on the lich to pause its specific AI or have it cycle between a set of predefined animation loops.

* Speaking of using the lich noncombativly. Let us use our liches to create custom articula.

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Still nothing on being able to temporarily kill the Lich (like you would an actual Lich) on incorrect Parazon combo, instead of getting Bane'd? Back to sleep I go.

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Just now, Eklectus said:

Still nothing on being able to temporarily kill the Lich (like you would an actual Lich) on incorrect Parazon combo, instead of getting Bane'd? Back to sleep I go.

i"m conflicted since on the one hand I hate 'oh hey you guessed wrong. You lose a revive.'

On the other I like the fact the liches have a way of handing us our ass and i love the animations themselves.

Including the time I literally got grabbed by the face and flung off a cliff. that amused me even though I was annoyed.

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