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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™

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Well it's good to hear about those changes, but all that doesn't do anything to adress the fundamental flaw of the Lich system, and the reason why so many veterans are so disappointed: Instead of creating a system that at least tries to do a bit of in-game storytelling, DE has instead opted for a very "game-y", even arcade-like system that is just "kill x enemy units of type y to collect resource z". Why on earth didn't you integrate different mission types into the Lich system? Getting hints on your Lich from Spy, Capture and Rescue mission would've made perfect sense. You also could have made thralls into bosses that the players would take down in Assassination missions. But no, it's just another grindfest.

Hunting down the thralls for murmur is basically just like driving Pac-Man through the maze to get all the dots.

It's a game mechanic from 1980, not 2019. Using it means falling behind all the developements im game design that have been achieved since, and if Warframe goes any further into this Arcade direction, the game will die, since that would basically mean giving up on engaging the players' imagination.

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3 hours ago, Sliv said:

Nice to see the liches getting some love !

The suggestion I would like to make isn't related to them, but to the valence transfert.
The valence transfert helps us keep our progression on this or that weapon, which is a problem far older than the kuva weapons. Whenever a new variant of a weapon/warframe/sentinel (prime, wraith, vandal, prisma, ...) arrive in the game, those of us who have invested ressources and time (potatoes, formas, exilus adapter, ...) in this item are given the choice to either ignore the new variant or start from scratch. And if you do reinvest ressources in this item, you end up with a downgraded version in your inventory that you don't know what to do with.
Here is my collection (missing a bunch of deleted items) :
Sans-titre.png

My suggestion is to allow formas/potatoes/exilus... transfert to the new variant by sacrificing the old item.

Edit : That oooor giving base weapons their own riven disposition so they stay relevant, like for kuva weapons.

This

Steve please add this

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10 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

Cool, but what about their personalities too? Right now I'm on my 3rd Kuva Lich and for the 3rd time I hear the same voice lines.

You were inspired by Shadow of Mordor Nemesis system, but as far as I remember there were tons of different personalities there. Some funny, some serious, some completely silent or just growling. And their behavior changed as they leveled up. 

We need this, because after we get all the weapons, there will be nothing left to explore in this system.

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10 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

Better than nothing, but not good.

10 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM

Cool. I like this.

10 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

TRADE YOUR LICH

Which means you still need to go through the grind for a pointless lich.
This has a very limited use-case, and aside from people selling ephemeras for ludicrous sums, you'll end up with 'ghost town' liches that no one wants.

Honestly, I'd much rather just pay them to go away; since I'm sure that you won't let us 'abandon' a lich (would make rerolling too easy).

10 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

MORE TO COME

The whole lich-related system is currently extremely segregated.
This is good because it doesn't imping on people who haven't opted in, but is severely detrimental otherwise - you're farming for murmurs and only murmurs.
Integrating Thralls into non-dedicated missions (e.g. fissures) would help a lot with incipient burnout from the significant grind that Liches entail.

Personally, I'm on my 5th lich -which rolled my first duplicate weapon. And since I can't make it go away, I'm simply not progressing it.
It's just not worth the time and effort of a dedicated farm for a weapon I already have, with a lower % than I have, and therefore I gain zero benefit from.
And you know what? I'll eat the loss of rewards when they happen. More worthwhile than the alternative.

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Hello there!

I wanted to say, I really like the system and the concept, but I think some things could be improved :

- The hunt for Kuva larvlings is a competition inside of a coop game, it's a rush to who will kill it first to get the Lich and I think this could use a redesign. I'm not sure what approach you would like for this but I would spawn as many larvlings as the amount of players who do not currently have a Lich in the mission and allow them to only execute one larvling.

- Nobody likes bonus impact damage on their weapon given the current state of impact damage and its associated status effect.

- I think more coop surrounding the Lich fight and figuring Requiem mods would be nice. I would love a system where players could each equip different Requiem mods in an attempt to identify a Lich's weaknesses. For example, the Lich could be open to a different kind of Mercy from other players that would not remove a health bar but give hints if the player has correct Requiem Mods equipped. Doing so would make the Lich down a player into a bleedout state but it would not make the Lich despawn. Each of these "Mercy from different players" could provide Requiem Murmur and would play different sounds based on the number of correct mods and correct positions. The players would have to learn how to identify the audio cues like "Oh, this sound means that this player had 2 correct Requiem mods and 1 in the right order".

- Tied to my previous point, I would prefer if the Requiem sequence was more of a puzzle, something that could be figured out based on some clues rather than pure random trial and error. For example, in missions controlled by a Lich, there could be hints that you could hunt and scan (like Cephalon fragments). These hints could be puzzles associated with Requiem mods' descriptions. This would make the whole process feel less random and it would reward players for exploring more instead of rushing missions blindly while still not penalizing people who just want to rush.

- I wish the Lich missions and larvling spawning were not excluded from things like fissures, Kuva missions and all. I don't like when multiple things have to be farmed separately like that and it would really feel like the Lich is your Nemesis, that's it's really doing its best to be your pain and that you don't just hop in a mission to voluntarily be taxed. I wish it would be a bit more like a Stalker I guess where it could spawn almost anywhere at any time, summon thralls and other Grineer units to help them.

- I'm not sure about Kuva weapons having a different disposition compared to their normal variants.

I think that's all I have to say. Other than this criticism, I really like the system and I think you did a great job with it overall.

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You literally dance around the fact that you don't address the main issue - the fact, that we don't want to deal with current Liches. I, for one, don't want to touch this system anymore, cause I have to waste several hours to deal with the Lich I don't even want. And the fact that grind is just unfun and mind-numbing makes the whole thing worse. There is no point in doing Lich-controlled nodes, cause the only thing you get are murmurs. There is no other incentive to do them. So, as I said before, just discard the whole Requiem system. Just make Liches very hard to kill, make their powers, weaknesses, immunities and resistances randomized. Give us a dozen Liches at the same time that have feuds and alliances with each other. So, if you want to battle Lich, you can take him down from the get-go, bruteforce your way, or you can hunt down thralls to learn about Lich's powers, immunities and weaknesses, so to prepare for the battle. And after you recruit the Liches, you can send them after each other. 

That way there won't be a problem of unfun grind, there would be variety of choice, also players won't have to deal with Liches they don't want. Still, you can make the loot randomized, so to make players continue the hunt. But in this case players will still waste a lot less time on the Liches and every battle will be more fun, because there won't be any unfair mechanics. Also, to deal with duplicates you could take the system further. Like allow to melt together different duplicates saving the weapon bonuses. For example, if I have a Kraken with toxin and get another Kraken with Radiation, I can melt them together and get Radiation-Toxin Kraken. Allow us to stack up to three bonuses, so there would still be incentive to collect duplicates. Then players would choose what elements they want to leave and what to discard. That way you would still have the feel of progression, because the powerful your weapons get, the easier it is to hunt Liches.

Then, the ability to command Liches is very, very important. Without it there is really no point to recruit Liches. But if you can recruit Liches and send them after another one - that would be a lot more interesting. Or, like in Shadow of Mordor, you can recruit dozen of Liches and then send then after one poor guy, just to see how the fight will play out.

Just listen to those suggestions, please. Because right now you're killing the game.

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I think PS4, Xbox and Switch should have been released with this update.
With this update, the impression of Kuva Lich will change greatly.

Edited by dimekikko

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22 minutes ago, Hawker65 said:

The hunt for Kuva larvlings is a competition inside of a coop game

While not ideal, you can just play solo. Adaro as been giving me almost 100% larvling spawn rate so far, and I'm at about 15 Lichs. Though the spawn seems to be broken on a per person basis. It's not super good for a coop game, sure, but that's a nonissue imo, because that's about 5min of solo play.

People refusing to stab their Lich and making any further Lich spawn in the mission impossible is a much more pressing issue in the "cooperation" department.

26 minutes ago, Hawker65 said:

Nobody likes bonus impact damage on their weapon

The damage type is deterministically tied to the Warframe you use to kill the larvling. If you didn't already, I suggest you read https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Kuva_Lich#Mechanics

Nobody likes Impact, but realistically you should only aim for Toxin, and maybe Fire, if you're trying to get optimal weapon rolls, although most options aren't strictly bad.

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Ok with many posters complaining about kuva weapons, kuva relics etc. but my main gripe is how boring is the current kuva lich game play cycle and storytelling...

- Kuva lich "birth/ascent" feels "random"

Ook, there's no risk anymore to "accidentally" murder a larwling but at the same time the concept of a mere nobody being given the chance to become lich feels substantially "wrong". Liches start as some no name weakling, "die" and suddenly return with troops, equipment and resources that would shame Sargas Rhuk... ok, what?! this sudden power growth makes no sense for a "mob"

  Why not have them start as ranked grineers with at least a number as a name, using an heavy unit, eximus or other "special" standard mob in the fortress as model, and making them appear in kuva related missions as part of the garrison, we leave them broken and humiliated after "finishing" them, then the queen turns them in kuva liches and sends them after our blood. Or, as Kuva fortress lacks content, why not make it the "birthplace" of liches? whith these officers having a good spawn chance in every mission were kuva is involved as actual minibosses?

Anyway kuva liches should originate from actual opponents we might remember instead than from absolute nobodies that until recently we obliterated by just passing by...

Now they have both a reason to want us dead and, due to the resources expended on them by the Worm Queen, they must scavenge the sistem to bring in results, justifiing the "tax" on all occupied nodes, while generally inconveniencing us at every turn.

Overall a more interesting origin for our lich and many plotholes plugged at the same time.

- Investigating kuva lich requiem feels repetitive/grindy and is disconnected from standard starchart progression due to a form of"segregated gameplay".

I'd prefer instead multiple ways to accumulate murmurs or actual hints,

Fighting our nemesis at least once - removing the instant death mechanic  - we beat them, break them, maim them and they get up again and again hunting us down relentlessly during the entire mission,  until we complete the objective successfully or their interference forces us to fail or to flee, this way we are factually shown that these enemies are different and we can't get rid of them so easily nor we will be able to ignore them without consequences

  The more skirmishes, the more chance for hints, not all true - that we'll have to sort out, leading us to HUNT for clues by actually engaging with content, maybe with a certain bias towards some kinds of missions depending on the "role" and personality of our personal lich.

Spy vaults in lich territory could offer new information or confirm/confute what we already have or point our search towards specific mission or certain nodes, in addition to the standard drop table.

Capture missions could focus on our kuva lich lieutenants in an attempt to gather more information on its abilities and weaknesses and so on...

We could buy information for potentially rewarding nodes or actual information from allied syndacates, Maroo and Symaris, while hostile syndacates might actively work against us in many ways, even going as far as forewarn our enemies of our movements.

Capture missions, survivals, spy could potentially change objective on the fly in the same way as rarely regular missions do: while doing spy vaults we could  find the last one purged with a thrall on the run with the info we need - a capture mission could prove to be a trap and turning into a survival or exterminate mission, were we have to outlast our lich troops trying to corner us.

Our eventual defeat in these missions should advance the lich agenda somehow, leading to expansion of its area of influence, new powers, raising enemy level in missions we already attempted and so on

At the same time rummaging around will get our nemesis attention, leading to increasing chance of its death squads targeting us and our allies and/or clanmates in any mission. Maybe a routine mission becomes a rush against time to rescue a vital informant, or a routine mission becomes a reverse sabotage in which we must attempt to prevent a reactor explosion on a ship from an allied faction or risk being blamed for it and lose standing.

The nearer we get to the complete requiem, the worse the enemy pressure, with all three mods unlocked increasing chance exponentially for our Kuva lich challenging us directly or sending a lieutenant or elite troops to actually eliminate us.

Information gathered could also be about the objectives and the resources of the lich, leading into missions dedicated to raiding the lich treasure ships or storage depots, for profit or pure vandalism! Sabotaging a ship to suffer a catastrophic reactor meltdown or vent it's atmosphere and survive until we completely ransack its hold?

- Star map grab and control

Oour nemesis has another duty beside us, exert grineer dominance on Sol sistem - leading  to increasingly frequent and progressively more difficult invasion missions and raising resource taxation around the star map.

Invasions against the lich would prevent it from claiming more nodes, setting back its plans, helping its side would give chances to obtain considerable clues about his  requiem or the location of his base of operations, targets to hunt for information...

 

Tl:Dr current Lich gameplay is repetitive and monotonous, nothing is being done to address this shortcoming, DE needs to work on this aspect as well

2 hours ago, tomrair said:

Well it's good to hear about those changes, but all that doesn't do anything to adress the fundamental flaw of the Lich system, and the reason why so many veterans are so disappointed: Instead of creating a system that at least tries to do a bit of in-game storytelling, DE has instead opted for a very "game-y", even arcade-like system that is just "kill x enemy units of type y to collect resource z". Why on earth didn't you integrate different mission types into the Lich system? Getting hints on your Lich from Spy, Capture and Rescue mission would've made perfect sense. You also could have made thralls into bosses that the players would take down in Assassination missions. But no, it's just another grindfest.

Hunting down the thralls for murmur is basically just like driving Pac-Man through the maze to get all the dots.

It's a game mechanic from 1980, not 2019. Using it means falling behind all the developements im game design that have been achieved since, and if Warframe goes any further into this Arcade direction, the game will die, since that would basically mean giving up on engaging the players' imagination.

Edited by Ikusias
integrated meaningful comment from other poster and changed post font color
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I wonder what trading a converted Lich actually means. Do they really get the Weapon/Ephemera or is it just the converted Lich that rarely spawn in a Mission? I feel its the second one

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11 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:
  • WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

This is a joke right?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

This is not enough. Most my lichs come with a different weapon next time I spawn them, I have 27 lichs killed and 1 active, and I got the same weapon in a row just 3 fu.cking times, will help just when someone is starting the system. A FAIL SAFE, FAIL SAFE. How about a NPC that sell or craft you a Kuva weapon if you give him like 10 kuva weapons (horrible, but would be better than this). Now instead of a chance 7.7% chance of getting the weapon I want, I have 8.3%, 8.3%, 8.3%, 8.3%, 8.3%, YEY YEY YEY YEY. SO HELPFULL. THANK YOU SO MUCH for that 0.6% chance increase, It was all I really wanted.

12 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:
  • TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!

Thank you for this. "S> Lich with Tonkor 59% HEAT (I actually have this), 5K PL or PMO". Let's make another "Riven Market". CLAP CLAP. Gonna start saving some PL for that Kuva Karak that never comes.

So no way to increase the bonuses of the Weapons and just a 0.6% increase chance.

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11 hours ago, V45H said:

when will we be able to donate a non converted lich to the clan as steve mentioned
also great now i have to tear down my dojo again :l
when will we get a proper like map editor style dojo builder where i can move rooms around to better organize rooms for an efficient dojo layout!
i alreay dont know where im going to put the dry dock dont get me wrong i love new rooms but we need more dojo building tools 

 

You can use this planner https://dojoplanner.stom66.co.uk/

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11 hours ago, BubblePoof said:

Could we add some real rewards to this whole thing? Maybe a few credit and endo caches, some resources from the planets they're controlling

Who needs credits or endo if they are farming liches? 

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32 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

Ok with many posters complaining about kuva weapons, kuva relics etc. but my main gripe is how boring is the current kuva lich game play cycle and storytelling...

- Kuva lich "birth/ascent" feels "random"

Ook, there's no risk anymore to "accidentally" murder a larwling but at the same time the concept of a mere nobody being given the chance to become lich feels substantially "wrong". Liches start as some no name weakling, "die" and suddenly return with troops, equipment and resources that would shame Sargas Rhuk... ok, what?! this sudden power growth makes no sense for a "mob"

  Why not have them start as ranked grineers with at least a number as a name, using an heavy unit, eximus or other "special" standard mob in the fortress as model, and making them appear in kuva related missions as part of the garrison, we leave them broken and humiliated after "finishing" them, then the queen turns them in kuva liches and sends them after our blood. Or, as Kuva fortress lacks content, why not make it the "birthplace" of liches? whith these officers having a good spawn chance in every mission were kuva is involved as actual minibosses?

Anyway kuva liches should originate from actual opponents we might remember instead than from absolute nobodies that until recently we obliterated by just passing by...

Now they have both a reason to want us dead and, due to the resources expended on them by the Worm Queen, they must scavenge the sistem to bring in results, justifiing the "tax" on all occupied nodes, while generally inconveniencing us at every turn.

Overall a more interesting origin for our lich and many plotholes plugged at the same time.

- Investigating kuva lich requiem feels repetitive/grindy and is disconnected from standard starchart progression due to a form of"segregated gameplay".

I'd prefer instead multiple ways to accumulate murmurs or actual hints,

Fighting our nemesis at least once - removing the instant death mechanic  - we beat them, break them, maim them and they get up again and again hunting us down relentlessly during the entire mission,  until we complete the objective successfully or their interference forces us to fail or to flee, this way we are factually shown that these enemies are different and we can't get rid of them so easily nor we will be able to ignore them without consequences

  The more skirmishes, the more chance for hints, not all true - that we'll have to sort out, leading us to HUNT for clues by actually engaging with content, maybe with a certain bias towards some kinds of missions depending on the "role" and personality of our personal lich.

Spy vaults in lich territory could offer new information or confirm/confute what we already have or point our search towards specific mission or certain nodes, in addition to the standard drop table.

Capture missions could focus on our kuva lich lieutenants in an attempt to gather more information on its abilities and weaknesses and so on...

We could buy information for potentially rewarding nodes or actual information from allied syndacates, Maroo and Symaris, while hostile syndacates might actively work against us in many ways, even going as far as forewarn our enemies of our movements.

Capture missions, survivals, spy could potentially change objective on the fly in the same way as rarely regular missions do: while doing spy vaults we could  find the last one purged with a thrall on the run with the info we need - a capture mission could prove to be a trap and turning into a survival or exterminate mission, were we have to outlast our lich troops trying to corner us.

Our eventual defeat in these missions should advance the lich agenda somehow, leading to expansion of its area of influence, new powers, raising enemy level in missions we already attempted and so on

At the same time rummaging around will get our nemesis attention, leading to increasing chance of its death squads targeting us and our allies and/or clanmates in any mission. Maybe a routine mission becomes a rush against time to rescue a vital informant, or a routine mission becomes a reverse sabotage in which we must attempt to prevent a reactor explosion on a ship from an allied faction or risk being blamed for it and lose standing.

The nearer we get to the complete requiem, the worse the enemy pressure, with all three mods unlocked increasing chance exponentially for our Kuva lich challenging us directly or sending a lieutenant or elite troops to actually eliminate us.

Information gathered could also be about the objectives and the resources of the lich, leading into missions dedicated to raiding the lich treasure ships or storage depots, for profit or pure vandalism! Sabotaging a ship to suffer a catastrophic reactor meltdown or vent it's atmosphere and survive until we completely ransack its hold?

- Star map grab and control

Oour nemesis has another duty beside us, exert grineer dominance on Sol sistem - leading  to increasingly frequent and progressively more difficult invasion missions and raising resource taxation around the star map.

Invasions against the lich would prevent it from claiming more nodes, setting back its plans, helping its side would give chances to obtain considerable clues about his  requiem or the location of his base of operations, targets to hunt for information...

 

Tl:Dr current Lich gameplay is repetitive and monotonous, nothing is being done to address this shortcoming, DE needs to work on this aspect as well

 

Next time format your stuff so ppl on dark mode can read it 🙂

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12 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Please keep your feedback constructive and succinct, making sure you give suggestions to systems you do not like, while detailing why you do like a system, should that be your opinion.

 I preemptively apologize for not being concise but I am trying to be defined and focused.  The TLDR is only 10 sentences :). My other mode is laconic and isn’t very clear or constructive :(.  This is getting warmer but I’m not sure we are there yet. Tapping down the RNG and any trading system is in the right direction but there is more to do to tackle pain points.   The core sentence of this post was incepted before the OP but please take it for what it is.

 

When Liches hit, I was annoyed.  It was very bothersome, it affected my post’s focus, and I couldn’t put my finger on why for a while.  It's almost as if the design intent was to create a system that completionists would take a very long time to finish so they wouldn’t cap out their mastery and flake.  I should know, I am one. I thought rivens would be enough for everyone but they don’t drop often enough and they keep getting the nerfbat so maybe this is supposed to be the bigger carrot.  I find something to do every day, content drought or not, so dropping untold hundreds of undetermined hours of work on me was not pleasant. DE will have to speak to that data. Here was the new thing that was bothering me….

 

Kuva weapon acquisition path is unprecedented in Warframe because it is SERIAL, RANDOM, and UNMITIGATED.

 

Serial meaning the mechanism to get the material reward, the weapon (or ephemera, I’m focusing on weapons) is mutually exclusive.  The lich has a specific weapon, and if you don’t like it, you have to acquire it anyway.  Sure you can convert it but it is the same amount of effort to clear the stack. Because the next weapon is (now no longer entirely) independent of the previous weapon, the player makes absolutely zero progress on the acquisition of the desired weapon when the undesired weapon is being worked on.  This feels terrible. Its sounding like this is being partially addressed by making the weapons more deterministic but 1/12 is only slightly better than 1/13. To truly help this, I hope for some sort of mechanism that allows the player to reroll the weapon on the lich with an amount of effort that is always less than that of fully killing/converting said lich.  Example being a third option at the kill screen which destroys their weapon and they go off to craft another one but it does NOT set you back to square one on the requiem puzzle. It sounds like the convert & trade option is the best we are going to get at the moment. Could we bias the weapon class in the same way we bias the element with weapon choice?

 

Random meaning nearly everything about them is random.  The weapon itself is random because of the lich creation mechanism but the weapon damage roll means that it could be top tier or, under ordinary circumstances, not worth a potato due to other sidegrade weapons the player has.  This limits desirability and is not something warframe weapons or items in general have ever had. Rivens don’t suffer from this because they are highly mitigated.

 

What’s particularly brutal about the system was the lack of mitigation on release.  Mitigation of the RNG.  Other games will use mathematical tricks like pseudo-randomness but that leads to a lot of frustration if its not tuned perfectly or the player knows it's there.  We don’t have that and I’m not advocating for it. (Someone tell me if DE snuck this in.) This game mostly mitigates RNG though trading. By spreading out the number of attempts, any duplicates of the desirable can be made available to anyone that doesn’t have it because of randomly not getting it, in the order of desire or willingness to pay for it.  This means that after a time, there will be saturation of that desirable however that can take a long time depending on base chance and other limitations. Accessibility offered is important because there will always be a set in the population that will never get the desirable naturally and we don’t want them to give up before they reach their limit.  Trading however does have its downsides of optics of buying power and fuels toxic behavior when rare and powerful items are involved. (Where is riven data stage 2?) It should not be used to solve everything.

 

Mod acquisition RNG is mitigated through game mechanics such as loot buffs and boosters.

Artificially scarce (invasion weapons) and Prime parts are mitigated through trading, teamwork and a currency.

Rivens are mitigated in an additional way.  Not only are they tradeable but they are reforgable through a currency, kuva.  By making it currency based (with variable acquisition efficiency(you only get 1 flood/hr)) the effort/reward not only inversely scales with time (which is something every grind system should attempt) but is also entirely communicable and bankable.  The player can choose to earn that currency as much or as little as they want, even if they don’t have a plan for it, and then spend it for speculative benefit as much or as little as they want or even trade it to others in the form of rolling traded rivens.  The raw amount of freedom this gives the player cannot be understated.  It turns what is really a quite time consuming and dubious prospect of improving a riven with a slot machine into a fun experience because of the freedom to grind, trade, or stop and be happy.  

Not having any mitigating factors in the kuva weapon/kuva lich system on release has made the entire experience extremely bitter.  Please do not make this mistake with RailJack.

 

There is so much more I don’t like about the system (lvl40 weapons, highly throttled 1-dimensional murmur grind in lieu of something more engaging, special missions exclusive to lich gameplay that are not all that special).  Those issues are an expectation gap and not wanting to be so burdened to complete the available mastery. But combined with the above, this system has made me consider things about the game I have not thought possible in the almost 7000 hours I have played it and I don’t believe its intended.

 

End of main thought.  Other suggestions:

 

Building progress on Valence Transfers

If DE is feeling particularly generous, update the kuva weapon transfusion system so that the receiving weapon always gets a little stronger, even if the donor weapon is weaker.  That way if someone wants to get a top tier roll, they will always make progress on their goals even if they don’t actually get a higher roll. 1 in 13 are really long odds already.  Knock down the max value if you need to, but having such a small chance to have a chance to get a better roll and make any progress is discouraging to the point of ignoring the system as a gameplay driver.

 

Slow down, Slayer.

We are allowed to roll a new lich and dive into killing it immediately after the last one with no governor outside of the sheer amount of mandated time required to kill a lich.  I feel as if murmur could be quicker to get if there was any limit at all to the maximum speed a player could roll liches. Why isn’t there a one a day or five a week limit?  Was this not intended to be a slow burn system like Focus?  Consider it an option.

 

Multiplayer forces

The lich missions do not play right in multiplayer.  Ever since the “parazon failure” murmur became unshared, someone else’s lich became completely uninteresting.  There is no reason to keep them around because their thrall conversion was limited (nerfed), and I get nothing from participating other than maybe shot.  If we had some way to engage with another player’s lich other than shooting it, I wouldn’t be mentioning this.  They should award some murmur, less than the amount earned for failing one’s own lich obviously.  We get full credit for being around when not-my-thralls are killed, so it should be at least that much when a lich appears.  

I also think it would be cool if allies could body check, melee combo,or somehow interrupt the lich on parazon attempt failure to save the other warframe.  Anything to engage with it progression wise and make these one dimensional missions exciting.  

If the player wants to play with a preformed squad and the squad doesn’t have liches all on the same node, its disadvantageous to play together.  You always want you lich to show up so you can get more murmur and try to see if you guessed anything correctly. Please allow all liches assigned to the squad to spawn even if the lich isn’t technically there.  I would not like there to be a cost to playing with friends, however slight.

 

TL;DR:

Liches introduced the first mutually exclusive weapon acquisition path and its painful.  

1/12 is only .64% more frequent then 1/13.  Can we reroll the weapon on the lich with kuva or time?  Could the weapon class be biased?

The proposed trading will help but why was it not initially in the design?  

Please do not make the same mistakes of not having RNG mitigation in RailJack.  Please.

Progressive improvement with every Valence transfer would offer a mediation path to frustration surrounding the unprecedented variability of kuva weapon power.

There should be some limit to the number of liches a player may kill per strategic time so murmur or other rates can be buffed without affecting overall content exhaustion rate to the benefit of players with less time to play.

Unrealistically resolve issues with kuva liches spawning when the cell membership is not built by matchmaking.

Make assisting with another’s kuva lich more interesting and rewarding for the 3rd party. 

Edited by Sahysa
Is it Liches or Lichs?
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11 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

MORE TO COME - We are looking at other ways in which we can make the Kuva Lich system more rewarding and unique

You want to make the system more rewarding and unique? Stop recycling forever the same old missions! Currently the lich hunt is, in fact, a thrall/murmur hunt, that involves spending hours doing the same menial tasks: kill those, defend that, hack that console. And the time allotted to the actual lich fight is insignificant and rng based (guessing the right relic by chance is not rewarding).

How? Make the murmur discovery process (almost?/entirely?) based on fighting the lich. Make us analyze its attack patterns, its defensive responses to certain attacks, its abilities usage, deduct the correct requiem. Like, for every X times that we force him to repeat an action we get some murmurs: shoot it in the back, shoot its weapon off its hands, make it charge us, make it use a specific ability, parry melee attacks. This would make the system truly unique and inherently rewarding (fun based, instead of only reward based).

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"More To Come" : Well I have an idea guys, listen up. You will have the opportunity to flush the Kuva out of the Lich to free it/her/him(whatever) AND this could have an influence on the Alignement of the player. Free is Sun, Kill is Neutral, Convert is Moon. Just an idea to stick to the lore

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1 minute ago, DebrisFlow said:

Currently the lich hunt is, in fact, a thrall/murmur hunt, that involves spending hours doing the same menial tasks: kill those, defend that, hack that console

Ayy someone found out what looters are about and is now toxic because it's not their type of game. 

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Also please, let us use that useless space on the left to see which combo didn't work, without having to go back and forth between the litch screen and the parazon screen.
Warframe-x64-2019-11-12-12-09-46.png

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Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

But that's not much better from before. Killing 9 liches and getting 9 Kuva Ayangas is just as frustrating as killing 9 liches and getting 5 Kuva Ayangas and 4 Kuva Krakens.

And what about the times when you actually *want* a duplicate? Say, I farm up Kuva Chakkhur with 26% radioactive bonus. If I want to upgrade, I'd have to fight at least one extra Kuva Lich that 100% will not give me an upgrade. More if I'd get a lich with a 25% damage bonus.

The solution of giving the kuva larvas the weapons was the most frequent and the best solution to this problem.

The fact that DE is so intent on keeping this RNG on top of RNG S#&$ going just for the sake of turning Kuva Liches into Rivens 2.0 is frankly disgusting.

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For lich trades, if the idea is that it's only between clan members then there needs to be a week or 2 trade ban on newly joined members to trade liches because it wont stop trades at all.

what going to happen is they will just buy a clan key rush it go trade liches and leave the clan

Edited by b4timert

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Il y a 13 heures, [DE]Bear a dit :
  • MORE TO COME - We are looking at other ways in which we can make the Kuva Lich system more rewarding and unique, although there is still a lot of internal discussion surrounding the ‘hows’ while maintaining the design intent. More on this as it is finalized.

 

 

More than the lich reward, what we need is reward for missions, real endless lich mission (not only limited survive/def/exca) where we can stay as we want. It's realy good to have high lvl mission but if there is nothing than farming murmur  it's not realy interesting gameplay.

Reward for endless mission can be relics (normal and/or requiem), special item to fuse kuva weapon (or boost their % bonus) and more.

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Can we skip the RNG on RNG on RNG mess. RNG is fine  but not triple layed into one system likethe Liches are... 

How about Elite Missions that are actually a challenge by actually making you weaker and more vulnerable by doing the following:
1: No Warframe Abilities(And no operator mode abilities either),
2: Being slowed down(Like having a Hobled Dragon Key on),
3: Unable to bullet jump or sprint / Void Dash or Void Mode,
4: no shields and half HP,
5: limited ammo + no ammo/hp/eng orbs/boxes,
6: 1 Life Only.
7: No Weap/Frame Mods kick in at all
8: Special Counter-Tenno Combat team that can move and fight like a Tenno and activly hunt you down in the Elite Mission.
9: Missions require a team for Max Rewards (Slot Locked). A solo Player can at least get Reward 1 assuming they don't die at all and can avoid the CTT (Counter-Tenno Team) which will still have 4 operators even if there's only one tenno.

----- 1-3 GARUNTEED  Rewards based on Performance and Team Survivability (How many people extracted, how many enemies got killed, how many times someone helped a downed squaddie*The fewer the better*, etc.) 
Reward One = Pick from any Req-Mod (Not relic. The actual mod) <- At least 2 people need to evac
Reward Two= Pick from a list of Rare Mods <-- This one should require teamwork, and with all players staying alive (Never being downed).
Reward Three= One Full-Set of Req-Relics + Chosen Riven (You pick the type of Unvield Riven) For actually completing this <-Note, this difficulty needs to be like, near impossible. Not a single down, killed the 4 Counter Tenno Team Member NPCs, completed secondary objectives.) 


All that is combined into facing a large map where you need to escape overwhelming enemy forces while completing various objectives instead of just one or two things. 

I wanna be challenged and earn a set of garunteed rewards.  And this "Git Gud" system would be very rewarding for those capable or working togeather and getting a mission done the old fashioned way.  


((And if DE does see this... I love the game, but it's not true about "Liches will be a challenge", time-walling isn't challenging. Challenge is about "Git Gud". Some people can grind 18-20 hours a day every day and kill 30 liches by the end of the week.  Triple Layer RNG is not a great progression means for people who work and wanna fight amazing boss battles. )) 

Edited by Schrodinger314
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