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The energy system does not work in Warframe.

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The energy system in warfame is broken, the player goes from casting 5 skills per mission (when he is a new player) to spanning skills without any concern about Energy(after they get their hands on fleeting expertise, Zenurik, arcane energize or just have enough resources for energy pizzas). Why these things are so powerful? I will break them down one by one.

 

Fleeting expertise

This mod is insanely strong mod. Let me explain Why efficiency so powerful as a stat. Supposing you have 75% efficiency (the cap) you effectively multiply both your energy income and energy reserve by 4. Let me clarify with an example lets you have a unranked Excalibur with 25 energy. Without efficiency you can cast 1 slash dash and if you pick up an energy orb you will be able to cast another slash dash. The same Excalibur with 75% efficiency can cast slash dash 4 times, them he can cast 4 additional times after getting an energy orb.

It is so strong that energy efficiency is better at increasing your effective energy pool than Primed Flow. Lets suppose we have an Excalibur with primed flow (275% energy) and a full energy pool. This Excalibur can cast slash dash 17 times. Let supposed we have another Excalibur with 75%, rank 30 and full energy. This Excalibur can cast slash dash 24 times.

From now on(in this post) I will treat efficiency as an energy income multiplier because it is easier to grasp it’s power treating it like that.

 

Zenurik

Going from 0 energy per second to 5 energy per second is amazing. At first it sounds somewhat innocent in 20 seconds you get enough energy to cast your 4 (5 energy/s). But energy efficiency exists so the effective energy income is 20 energy/s, meaning you can cast your 4 each 5 seconds. At this point you already can spam mindlessly because your basic energy income combined with whatever the enemies drop will be enough to sustain your energy

 

Arcane energize

Each arcane energize effectively increases the energy income from orbs by 160%, Furthermore if you are running maximum efficiency (granted this is overkill) you will increase your effective energy income by 640%. In simpler terms before arcane energize 5 orb = 5 slash dash, after arcane energize 5 energy orb= 13 slash dashes, after combining this with efficiency 5 energy orbs= 52 slash dashes. Here lies the foundation of the haves and haves not on the warframe energy system.

 

Energy pizzas

They don’t have a cooldown, so you can have unlimited energy as long is you have enough polymers bundles too fuel your addiction.

 

Can this system be balanced?

Yes, you can balance it , you can always "balance" something by lowering its numbers enough. For example: You can just reduce the efficiency cap, nerf arcane energize , nerf zenurik and add a cool down to energy restores.

However, at this point we might as well rework the entire system for a better future, to address both the new player energy drought and the veteran energy flood.

 

Despite all the salt flow don’t think I’m trying wield the Nerf bat with a righteous fury that will surpass the all mighty Scott. In fact the fallowing suggestions are massive buff to energy base line in warframe , the high end will take some hits but if you are happy with the just using the current Zenurik, that kind of energy regeneration will be the baseline on my proposal.

 

My solution
 

Spoiler

 

TL: DR

Everyone gets energy regeneration (no joke here, from 3 to 5 energy/s).

Every kill gives energy (as long as you did not use your own ability to kill that mob).

Efficiency is Dead (got reworked into a stat use to increase energy regeneration).

Channeling no longer disables energy regeneration.

Arcane energize now only works on head shot kills.

Energy pizzas have a cooldown timer.

 

The long version

 

Spoiler

 

Overall

Energy efficiency will be reworked into a stat called void link. Void link will give players energy regeneration, at base something between 3 and 5.

Energy orbs will be removed in favor or a fixed amount of energy regeneration per kill. Each warframe also has a base stat called Void leach, this stat determines how much energy he receives when an enemies dies.

All warframes will receive a buff to their energy pool and energy increase per rank as compensation for the loss of efficiency

 

Void link

This stat determines how much energy per second an warframe receives, each warframe has his own void connection value for energy connection. This way DE can Taylor an energy economy for each warframe.

Channeled skills no longer prevent energy regeneration.

A good guess of what would be a warframe base energy regent is somewhere between 3 to 5 energy per second (the ones with 5 energy per second would effectively play as they play right now ).

Reworked mods and passives

Spoiler

 

Streamline will be reworked into Void channel

Void channel increases void link by 50%

 

Fleeting expertise will be reworked into Void conduit

Void conduit increases void link by 100% and decreases ability duration by 60%.

 

Blind rage will increase power strength by 100% and decreases void link by 100%

Energizing dash (Zenurik) is going to increase void link 150%

 

Energy pulse(Zenurik) releases a wave of electricity whenever you cast a skill. This energy wave restore 10% of the energy you spent to all allies cough by the wave. Radius scales with energy spent.

For example: If you cast radial blind, your allies receive 5 energy.

 

 

 

 

Void leach

This stat will replace energy orbs. Energy leach is a new warframe stat. This stat shows how much energy the warframe receives per enemy kill.

If an allied warframe kills an enemy, you will receive energy.

If you kill an enemy with a weapon (exalted or not), you will receive energy.

If you kill an enemy with your skills, you will not receive energy.

Notes:

Peacemaker will be considered a skill(as far as this system is concerned) instead of a weapon because it does not require much player input and the point of this system is trying to create a stimuli to combine weapons and skills.

 

Arcane energize.

Reworked into, upon head shot kill 75% of sending a wave restoring energy.

 

Energy Pizzas

Energy pizzas have a cool down of 2 minutes.

 

Why this system is better?

  1.  

Spoiler

 

  1. New players can use skills because they have proper access to energy.

  2. Smaller gap between minimum energy income and maximum effective energy income.

  3. Naturally combats nuke spam by giving less energy to the player nuking.

  4. Transparency, it is easier for the player to grasp how much energy his build is going to provide because all both numbers related to this system are readily available on the Arsenal , also these numbers are easy to grasp. Contrary to the current energy orb system that deepens on a drop rate that none knows.

  5. The system no longer has compounding multipliers, which makes it way easier to balance.

  6. DE can custom craft an “energy system “for each warframe by altering their void link and void leach numbers. The only way to cheat this system is with squad mate frame but that’s by design.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by keikogi
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I'll be honest, the changes are too drastic here, I know Energy pizzas are absurd in ways that it gives you lots of freedom and makes things very easy, but these changes feel unnecesary.

However, I will agree that a Basic Energy Regen varying between Warframes would be really cool so as to give you an illusion of "Cooldowns" to your abilities or energy pool, devaluing Zenurik slightly by consequence.

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It's an interesting concept. Altering the methods of energy (re)generation is always going to have people who are upset by it. However, on my high efficiency builds, I've used maybe a grand total of ten energy pizzas, and that's because I've done something stupid like walked through magnetising lasers, or fallen into eidolon water.

Void Link

So, if I'm reading this right, you're giving all frames a passive energy regeneration, with the base amount being specific to the frame itself. That would make energy problems much less pressing, for any level player.

3 hours ago, keikogi said:

Also channeled skills no longer prevent energy regeneration

This is a bad idea, as much as I would love to maintain Exalted Blade, or Iron Staff, or Razorwing indefinitely, the energy drain shutting down most methods of regeneration is a balancing mechanic. Especially since you get energy regeneration for nothing.

Streamline and Fleeting Expertise

I disagree with this. This is, in fact, my biggest problem with your proposal.

1) Efficiency also affects the health cost of Despoil, and Hildryn's shield costs for abilities. This is particularly bad for Hildryn, as she has no energy pool at all, so she gets smashed with a hammer if this went through as is 

2) Fleeting Expertise is a corrupted mod, and one of 2 mods that can lower Duration.

Arcane Energize

I mean, this seems a bit silly. Maybe swap it to an Energy Leach, and make it apply upon Leaching energy with that method. That would mean it works in a similar fashion to how it already does.

Energy Pizzas

2 minute cool down? Yeah, I don't mind this. There are only a few frames that warrant placing multiple pizzas, and I don't like using them that way. This makes it a more tactical choice.

Energizing Dash

The 150% link increase is good. The shock damage seems tacked on. Maybe have it shut down nearby eximus ability for a few seconds or something.

Energy Leach

The numbers for this would need to be very specific and tailored to each frame. Saryn, Equinox, and Nova would need to be HEAVILY penalised by this, since they can map nuke. You might also want to include something that makes it scale by enemy level up to a point, so that killing a level 1 enemy doesn't refund you the same amount as a level 100, because the effort you use is different. Theoretically. Most experts tend to go through then like hot butter regardless, but still.

 

In summary, my only real problem is efficiency in the form of Streamline and Fleeting Expertise losing effectiveness for non-energy abilities, and losing Fleeting Expertise's ability to drop your duration.

(Edit) : Oh, and channeled abilities allowing regeneration

Edited by (XB1)MarakViriPlays
Because ... Reasons?
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I don't like the energy system, but not because I think the frequency of casting is too high. I don't like it because I think it's too limiting a factor in design. Not every frame needs this system, some would feel better with different resource systems, but maybe they feel there are so many things that tie into energy that they have to force it into every frame with only one exception in 40+ different warframes. Over 40 warframes all using that same resource system. Sometimes they have an additional secondary resource (IE: Nidus), but everything besides Hildryn incorporates the same energy system.

Some frames might feel better with a fast generating smaller pool (like rogues/hunters in WoW). Maybe some would feel better with a warrior rage type resource system. Maybe something would feel better with short cooldowns. Maybe some should have some kind of blood magic system, but more directly rather than in the roundabout way Garuda has one that still incorporates the standard energy system etc. 

In the future I'd hope they eventually can escape the limitations of that resource system and give new and maybe some existing frames different resource systems. Having more variation in resource systems could offer a wider variety of gameplay experiences. 

---------

In terms of the existing energy system, I do think they could add a cooldown to pads or even remove them entirely from the game since it's a relic from the past that just isn't great design. Convert existing ones back into mats automatically if they removed them. 

Arcane energize also changes the energy economy so drastically for an item that's so obnoxious to farm yourself that most people would suggest just buying it. I think that's bad for multiple reasons, especially since the way to farm it is locked behind an obnoxious clock on the plains and you'd have to get hundreds of captures to likely get a single set without just buying it. If there was a better in-game trade system maybe I'd overlook that, but having to use third party sites to trade for end-game items like rivens and arcanes isn't something a lot of players want to deal with. I'd be fine with them nerfing this a lot, but I'm not one of the people who bought a set that would be filled with rage if they did.

I think zenurik is fine even with efficiency. I think steady energy regen actually feels a lot better than the outdated orb system for a lot of frames. I do think it should just be a passive that's always on if that's your school. Randomly going operator to make a void zone every so often isn't great gameplay. 

If they were to change the overall system I'd give small base regen that differs from frame to frame and just change orbs to temporarily increase your regen for X seconds. Arcane Energize could further increase the regen a bit for a few seconds, limiting its insane potential regen if you get a bunch of procs in a short amount of time. I'd also get rid of the abilities turning off regen system. Drains should just subtract from your regen rather than disabling all of it and then having a drain on top. Depending on how big of a drain it is and how much regen you have you may end up with a net positive or negative. 

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4 hours ago, CuChulainnWD said:

Whoah! I will stop you right there mate. NO RIVEN is worth over 150 plat. I don't care what you think. The only people it maybe worth 1K plat to, are the sellers who are taking advantage, and the noobs that think it will make them the latest and greatest. Both are deluding themselves.  😉 Don't make my time and effort building Energy Pizza's a waste. Thank YOU Veeeeeeeeeeeerrry much.

Well, if you don't care about others' loss regarding rivens, why would anyone care about your effort with energy pizzas?

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I never understood the insistence on and obsession with "mana" that modern game developers have. It always sucked and everyone just tried to bypass it anyway in MMOs and RPGs, and it feels like it's just popular because it's a game design crutch.

If it was my choice, I'd dump the energy system entirely in favor of frame specific synergies, meter systems and resource management.

Playing Grendel, I can't help but remark on the fact that he would be 100% more smooth and fun to play if he didn't use energy at all, and straight up managed his abilities through his eating mechanics. That frame has strongly highlighted just how much the energy system needlessly hampers the gameplay in Warframe.

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4 hours ago, (XB1)MarakViriPlays said:

This is a bad idea, as much as I would love to maintain Exalted Blade, or Iron Staff, or Razorwing indefinitely, the energy drain shutting down most methods of regeneration is a balancing mechanic. Especially since you get energy regeneration for nothing.

As much as people like to pretend exalted weapons are especial , they are just a increase in durability and damage. You know what else does that ? Vex Armor. A few case would need to be addressed individually ( histeria has to have a big enought drain because of perma invunerability and peace maker because it is nuke) to make sure you never have enought regenaration to keep them forever. 

4 hours ago, (XB1)MarakViriPlays said:

Efficiency also affects the health cost of Despoil, and Hildryn's shield costs for abilities. This is particularly bad for Hildryn, as she has no energy pool at all, so she gets smashed with a hammer if this went through as

Just give them compensation buffs , Hildrin was desined around the existence of efficiency , if it no longer exist zhe should receive compensation buff.

4 hours ago, (XB1)MarakViriPlays said:

Fleeting Expertise is a corrupted mod, and one of 2 mods that can lower Duration.

I did not remove the negative duration , I just omitted it.

4 hours ago, (XB1)MarakViriPlays said:

Arcane Energize

I mean, this seems a bit silly. Maybe swap it to an Energy Leach, and make it apply upon Leaching energy with that method. That would mean it works in a similar fashion to how it already does.

The head shot requiriment is there to make kt worse with aoe weapons.

4 hours ago, (XB1)MarakViriPlays said:

Energizing Dash

The 150% link increase is good. The shock damage seems tacked on. Maybe have it shut down nearby eximus ability for a few seconds or something.

The shock damage is not a part of energizing dash. It replaces the old zenirki passive picking up energy obs gives energy regeneration. I just replaced it with something that would be cool for a caster school.

4 hours ago, (XB1)MarakViriPlays said:

The numbers for this would need to be very specific and tailored to each frame. Saryn, Equinox, and Nova would need to be HEAVILY penalised by this, since they can map nuke. You might also want to include something that makes it scale by enemy level up to a point, so that killing a level 1 enemy doesn't refund you the same amount as a level 100, because the effort you use is different. Theoretically. Most experts tend to go through then like hot butter regardless, but still.

That is kinda of the point of it being tied to the warframe. Nukers  could have higher than usual energy leach numbers so their weapon kills and the kills done by their allies would refill them faster. These mechamic is there to stop people spaninf lile there is not tomorrow I don't mimd people nuking the map often.

 

Edited by keikogi
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5 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

I'll be honest, the changes are too drastic here, I know Energy pizzas are absurd in ways that it gives you lots of freedom and makes things very easy, but these changes feel unnecesary.

However, I will agree that a Basic Energy Regen varying between Warframes would be really cool so as to give you an illusion of "Cooldowns" to your abilities or energy pool, devaluing Zenurik slightly by consequence.

I just can't see a way to balance energy while efficiency exist , it creates a massibe gap between have's and have,s not. So I nuked it out of existence. I also nuked energy orbs because I like the simple idea of kill=energy instead of kill=%energy. 

The base regenation is something the player base has been asking for years. The community like's it so much that energy siphon was the most popular aura and now zenurik is the most popular school.

Are my changes to much ? Probably , yes.

 

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3 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Yay to the king. Nerf that crap baby! Bring me back my 2015 I beg ya.

I'm literally proposing 3-5 energy regeneration at base. Do you really thing I want to go back to these dark years ?

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2 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

don't like the energy system, but not because I think the frequency of casting is too high. I don't like it because I think it's too limiting a factor in design. Not every frame needs this system, some would feel better with different resource systems, but maybe they feel there are so many things that tie into energy that they have to force it into every frame with only one exception in 40+ different warframes. Over 40 warframes all using that same resource system. Sometimes they have an additional secondary resource (IE: Nidus), but everything besides Hildryn incorporates the same energy system.

Some frames might feel better with a fast generating smaller pool (like rogues/hunters in WoW). Maybe some would feel better with a warrior rage type resource system. Maybe something would feel better with short cooldowns. Maybe some should have some kind of blood magic system, but more directly rather than in the roundabout way Garuda has one that still incorporates the standard energy system etc. 

In the future I'd hope they eventually can escape the limitations of that resource system and give new and maybe some existing frames different resource systems. Having more variation in resource systems could offer a wider variety of gameplay experiences. 

DE made baby steps on that direction ( frame with unique resorces ) but they seen somewhat unwilling to create frames completely outside of this system.

2 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

terms of the existing energy system, I do think they could add a cooldown to pads or even remove them entirely from the game since it's a relic from the past that just isn't great design. Convert existing ones back into mats automatically if they removed them. 

Arcane energize also changes the energy economy so drastically for an item that's so obnoxious to farm yourself that most people would suggest just buying it. I think that's bad for multiple reasons, especially since the way to farm it is locked behind an obnoxious clock on the plains and you'd have to get hundreds of captures to likely get a single set without just buying it. If there was a better in-game trade system maybe I'd overlook that, but having to use third party sites to trade for end-game items like rivens and arcanes isn't something a lot of players want to deal with. I'd be fine with them nerfing this a lot, but I'm not one of the people who bought a set that would be filled with rage if they did.

The pads being there is good to allow players to recover from mistakes. I pretty much agree with the rest.

3 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

think zenurik is fine even with efficiency. I think steady energy regen actually feels a lot better than the outdated orb system for a lot of frames. I do think it should just be a passive that's always on if that's your school. Randomly going operator to make a void zone every so often isn't great gameplay. 

I'm fine with it too , that's why in my system at 300% void link you get 20 energy per second( in the best case scenario). This is the same as the current 5 with 75% efficiency.a

3 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

they were to change the overall system I'd give small base regen that differs from frame to frame and just change orbs to temporarily increase your regen for X seconds. Arcane Energize could further increase the regen a bit for a few seconds, limiting its insane potential regen if you get a bunch of procs in a short amount of time. I'd also get rid of the abilities turning off regen system. Drains should just subtract from your regen rather than disabling all of it and then having a drain on top. Depending on how big of a drain it is and how much regen you have you may end up with a net positive or negative. 

That's a good rework that requires a smaller amount of changes.

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7 minutes ago, keikogi said:

As much as people like to pretend exalted weapons are especial , they are just a increase in disability and damage.

I agree that they are often not worth the level of energy drain, but that is not the point. If an ability is not cast and complete, it should have either a duration or an upkeep cost. The only ability I'm aware of that doesn't do this is Reservoir, and I still have mixed feelings about that. And, despite what I said, I don't agree about it shutting off energy regeneration completely, though it is phrased that way. I meant that it's drain should be more than the frames base Void Link, so that it doesn't have infinite duration unless you build for it, with the more useful or outright stronger drain abilities (such as Hysteria and Peacemaker) costing significantly more, so that you need to maximize your Void Link and make good use of Void Leach to maintain it indefinitely.

20 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Just give them compensation buffs , Hildrin was desined around the existence of efficiency , if it no longer exist zhe should receive compensation buff.

That's would work, though it'd need to be a rather decent buff, for Hildryn especially, since she, as you said, was designed around it.

22 minutes ago, keikogi said:

The head shot requiriment is there to make kt worse with aoe weapons.

Given time to reflect on it, I actually like yours more, as it gives a reason to use CC frames, even if it would make Harrow the mother of all energy generators.

25 minutes ago, keikogi said:

The shock damage is not a part of energizing dash. It replaces the old zenirki passive picking up energy obs gives energy regeneration. I just replaced it with something that would be cool for a caster school.

Ah. I missed the "Energy Pulse" in your description. But it seems somewhat pointless, and more of an aesthetic thing, unless it's a guaranteed to proc Electric, which would give a bit of CC and allow you to capitalize on your suggested Arcane Energize.

27 minutes ago, keikogi said:

That is kinda of the point of it being tied to the warframe. Nukers  could have higher than usual energy leach numbers so their weapon kills and the kills done by their allies would refill them faster. These mechamic is there to stop people spaninf lile there is not tomorrow I don't mimd people nuking the map often.

I guessed as much, but was just clarifying, because I've seen people suggest the opposite (they used energy for the kill, so they should have more energy available to them).

24 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I also nuked energy orbs because I like the simple idea of kill=energy instead of kill=%energy. 

The only negatives to removing energy orbs, while providing passive energy regeneration, and guaranteed energy on kill, is that Equinox has her passive rendered moot, Equilibrium gets heavily shafted, Deathcube's Energy Generator becomes completely useless, and Energy Conversion becomes completely useless. Probably a few other things, but these are the big ones. You'd need to find a way to make all of them relevant agai, because those are stapled in a lot of builds. Maybe do what Borg1611 suggested an keep energy orbs as another bonus to Void Link. If not, I'm curious to see how you would do it.

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1 hour ago, XaoGarrent said:

never understood the insistence on and obsession with "mana" that modern game developers have. It always sucked and everyone just tried to bypass it anyway in MMOs and RPGs, and it feels like it's just popular because it's a game design crutch.

I don't get it either , I usually find simple cooldowns a better solution , give people ways to reduce these cooldowns by playing well. In PVP games I understand their wide spread use to stop people from abusing poke.

1 hour ago, XaoGarrent said:

Playing Grendel, I can't help but remark on the fact that he would be 100% more smooth and fun to play if he didn't use energy at all, and straight up managed his abilities through his eating mechanics. That frame has strongly highlighted just how much the energy system needlessly hampers the gameplay in Warframe.

Grendel is a victim of DE suddenly carring about the energy economy , I feel like his energy costs are balanced around 75% efficiency and zenurik combined. I don't even know why he uses energy , I would prefer of he had his own eating mechamics.

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So on one hand, I can empathize with both the criticism and the desire to rework Energy. It is obvious that our current Energy economy is broken, because the near-totality of high-end play is essentially predicated on the fact that we have such unlimited Energy reserves that we can cast whichever ability we want, whenever we want, as often as we want, despite Energy being meant to gate our ability usage. Meanwhile, starting players end up seriously underestimating the power of abilities, because their lack of high-end mods, Operator passives, etc. means they're starved of Energy practically all the time. As such, there clearly needs to be a rework to our gating of abilities.

However, with this said, I personally am also not the biggest fan of Energy regen: on one hand, I do think it would be a significant improvement over the current model, because it would avoid players finding themselves completely out of Energy with no reliable prospect of recovery (outside of Operator options). On the other, energy regen presumes that our abilities will end up with some sort of downtime, which I don't think is actually how we really want our abilities gated: we don't like the idea of cooldowns, for example, because cooldowns presume that we won't be able to use abilities when we want to, which feels bad, just as when we run out of Energy. This is also likely why DE pushed us more towards having on-demand Energy, because despite the negative impact ability spam has had on the game's balance, it feels fundamentally good to be able to use whichever ability we want, when we want it.

Personally, for these reasons I think we may need to ditch the idea of some unified, resource-based ability gating system, and instead look to design abilities in such a way that they are healthy to use, even with no cooldown or Energy cost. This may sound unrealistic, but already exists on some warframes, such as Garuda: her kit is designed in such a way that she isn't really constrained by Energy, but her abilities also have built-in gameplay that prevents her from auto-winning every fight the moment she has access to abilities, as is unfortunately the case for quite a few other frames. Harrow similarly has a couple of abilities that are intended to be spammed, yet that remain healthy in the process due to aiming requirements or meaningful tradeoffs. Hildryn, despite her problems, shows that it's perfectly possible to design a frame with no Energy costs. This isn't to say that I dislike everything about the suggestion in the OP, as I think charging up ability power from kills is a good mechanic (provided it's implemented in a way that isn't feast-or-famine depending on the player's power), I just think that's probably better-suited as a mechanic for some, but not all abilities, i.e. effects meant to be climactic bursts of power, as opposed to panic buttons, set-ups, or other basic utility tools.

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43 minutes ago, (XB1)MarakViriPlays said:

that they are often not worth the level of energy drain, but that is not the point. If an ability is not cast and complete, it should have either a duration or an upkeep cost. The only ability I'm aware of that doesn't do this is Reservoir, and I still have mixed feelings about that. And, despite what I said, I don't agree about it shutting off energy regeneration completely, though it is phrased that way. I meant that it's drain should be more than the frames base Void Link, so that it doesn't have infinite duration unless you build for it, with the more useful or outright stronger drain abilities (such as Hysteria and Peacemaker) costing significantly more, so that you need to maximize your Void Link and make good use of Void Leach to maintain it indefinitely

That's a good aprouch for each frame unfortunately I was overly concerned about peace maker and made it so exalted weapons and skill don't proc energy leach on yourself. Kinda of duck move on my part. It is especially bad for solo players. Maybe my concers of peacemaker profiting you energy made me not look at the bigger picture.

46 minutes ago, (XB1)MarakViriPlays said:

Ah. I missed the "Energy Pulse" in your description. But it seems somewhat pointless, and more of an aesthetic thing, unless it's a guaranteed to proc Electric, which would give a bit of CC and allow you to capitalize on your suggested Arcane Energize.

It had both a garanteed eletric proc and it gave your allies 25% of the energy you spent on that skill ( for example if you used 100 energy on a skill all allies caught by the pulse would receive 25 energy ). That version felt like zenurik favoritism so dialed it back. Probably overdid it.

 

52 minutes ago, (XB1)MarakViriPlays said:

The only negatives to removing energy orbs, while providing passive energy regeneration, and guaranteed energy on kill, is that Equinox has her passive rendered moot, Equilibrium gets heavily shafted, Deathcube's Energy Generator becomes completely useless, and Energy Conversion becomes completely useless. Probably a few other things, but these are the big ones. You'd need to find a way to make all of them relevant agai, because those are stapled in a lot of builds. Maybe do what Borg1611 suggested an keep energy orbs as another bonus to Void Link. If not, I'm curious to see how you would do it.

I did not went as far is to look at every form of energy regenaratiom , I just looked at the most popular and most powerfull ones. I was just trying to create a new foudation for the energy system not create a complete rework proposal , realistic speaking this is just a initial pitch ( a proper proposal would require at least 10 warframe with the energy leach amd energy regeneration numbers and their energy cost rebalanced to fit the new system ). Removing energy orbs isn't even necessary on my system due to them becoming way weaker due to the end of energy efficiency and the arcane energize rework. 

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1 minute ago, keikogi said:

Maybe my concers of peacemaker profiting you energy made me not look at the bigger picture.

Maybe, but you could have exalted weapons provide less Void Leach than a regular weapon, to make up for their better stats (or more for ones like the Diwata).

2 minutes ago, keikogi said:

It had both a garanteed eletric proc and it gave your allies 25% of the energy you spent on that skill ( for example if you used 100 energy on a skill all allies caught by the pulse would receive 25 energy ). That version felt like zenurik favoritism so dialed it back. Probably overdid it.

Yeah. Maybe drop it down to 10%.

  • Low-Cost (25e) will regenerate 2 energy to allies within range
  • Mid-Cost (50e) will regenerate 5 energy to allies within range
  • High-Cost (75e) will regenerate 7 energy to allies within range
  • Ult-Cost (100e) will regenerate 10 energy to allies within range
8 minutes ago, keikogi said:

I was just trying to create a new foudation for the energy system not create a complete rework proposal , realistic speaking this is just a initial pitch

Fair enough.

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17 minutes ago, (XB1)MarakViriPlays said:

Maybe, but you could have exalted weapons provide less Void Leach than a regular weapon, to make up for their better stats (or more for ones like the Diwata).

That idea is genial it could be extended to weapons to all weapons. Weapons have a energy leach number , this weapon regenerates 1 energy per kill ( example ). The warframe has a energy leach efficiency stat. For example: at 100% efficiency the warframe regenetes 1 energy , at 200% efficiency youthe warframe would regenerate 2. This system allows you to both give bows a unique purpose ( they could be the best energy generators per kill in the game ) while allowing DE to control AOE weapons without using self damage ( just give them bad energy leach so using them means you are your skills less ).

Going to Do that when I get around to write my ideas on the ammo economy here. 

23 minutes ago, (XB1)MarakViriPlays said:

Yeah. Maybe drop it down to 10%.

  • Low-Cost (25e) will regenerate 2 energy to allies within range
  • Mid-Cost (50e) will regenerate 5 energy to allies within range
  • High-Cost (75e) will regenerate 7 energy to allies within range
  • Ult-Cost (100e) will regenerate 10 energy to allies within range

I will implement that , thank you.

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I would like the energy economy looked at, but there's no reason to limit pizzas really. It takes time and resources to craft. If you want to use and spam those, go for it.

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4 часа назад, Teridax68 сказал:
Personally, for these reasons I think we may need to ditch the idea of some unified, resource-based ability gating system, and instead look to design abilities in such a way that they are healthy to use, even with no cooldown or Energy cost. This may sound unrealistic, but already exists on some warframes, such as Garuda: her kit is designed in such a way that she isn't really constrained by Energy, but her abilities also have built-in gameplay that prevents her from auto-winning every fight the moment she has access to abilities, as is unfortunately the case for quite a few other frames. Harrow similarly has a couple of abilities that are intended to be spammed, yet that remain healthy in the process due to aiming requirements or meaningful tradeoffs. Hildryn, despite her problems, shows that it's perfectly possible to design a frame with no Energy costs. This isn't to say that I dislike everything about the suggestion in the OP, as I think charging up ability power from kills is a good mechanic (provided it's implemented in a way that isn't feast-or-famine depending on the player's power), I just think that's probably better-suited as a mechanic for some, but not all abilities, i.e. effects meant to be climactic bursts of power, as opposed to panic buttons, set-ups, or other basic utility tools.

This is really what needs to be done. Moreover, they really need to think about how to release most of the abilities from the drain of energy and give a different mechanics. It's annoying when you run the risk of just being left with no energy to recover and hoping for energy orbs because that's the only way.

Moreover, the archwing system has long had an innate regeneration of energy and shows itself well.

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1 hour ago, zhellon said:

This is really what needs to be done. Moreover, they really need to think about how to release most of the abilities from the drain of energy and give a different mechanics. It's annoying when you run the risk of just being left with no energy to recover and hoping for energy orbs because that's the only way.

Moreover, the archwing system has long had an innate regeneration of energy and shows itself well.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So on one hand, I can empathize with both the criticism and the desire to rework Energy. It is obvious that our current Energy economy is broken, because the near-totality of high-end play is essentially predicated on the fact that we have such unlimited Energy reserves that we can cast whichever ability we want, whenever we want, as often as we want, despite Energy being meant to gate our ability usage. Meanwhile, starting players end up seriously underestimating the power of abilities, because their lack of high-end mods, Operator passives, etc. means they're starved of Energy practically all the time. As such, there clearly needs to be a rework to our gating of abilities.

However, with this said, I personally am also not the biggest fan of Energy regen: on one hand, I do think it would be a significant improvement over the current model, because it would avoid players finding themselves completely out of Energy with no reliable prospect of recovery (outside of Operator options). On the other, energy regen presumes that our abilities will end up with some sort of downtime, which I don't think is actually how we really want our abilities gated: we don't like the idea of cooldowns, for example, because cooldowns presume that we won't be able to use abilities when we want to, which feels bad, just as when we run out of Energy. This is also likely why DE pushed us more towards having on-demand Energy, because despite the negative impact ability spam has had on the game's balance, it feels fundamentally good to be able to use whichever ability we want, when we want it.

Personally, for these reasons I think we may need to ditch the idea of some unified, resource-based ability gating system, and instead look to design abilities in such a way that they are healthy to use, even with no cooldown or Energy cost. This may sound unrealistic, but already exists on some warframes, such as Garuda: her kit is designed in such a way that she isn't really constrained by Energy, but her abilities also have built-in gameplay that prevents her from auto-winning every fight the moment she has access to abilities, as is unfortunately the case for quite a few other frames. Harrow similarly has a couple of abilities that are intended to be spammed, yet that remain healthy in the process due to aiming requirements or meaningful tradeoffs. Hildryn, despite her problems, shows that it's perfectly possible to design a frame with no Energy costs. This isn't to say that I dislike everything about the suggestion in the OP, as I think charging up ability power from kills is a good mechanic (provided it's implemented in a way that isn't feast-or-famine depending on the player's power), I just think that's probably better-suited as a mechanic for some, but not all abilities, i.e. effects meant to be climactic bursts of power, as opposed to panic buttons, set-ups, or other basic utility tools.

Do I agree the best way to address ability spam is not limiting them by a resource it just by design them in such a way the player does not benefit from spanning them at all?

YES!!

For example, equinox has an AOE nuke, but you can’t spam it every second because you need to build it up first. Harrow is the best example of a kit limited by design choices not energy , his 1 requires him to line up enemies , his 2 requires shields given by his 1 to have a meaningful duration , his 3 allows him to ignore the existence of energy , his 4 can be either use as last resource defense or a buff but the internal cooldown makes using it as buff dangerous.

Edit: From now on DE should design kit like that , they are trying to use unique resources or design to limit skill usage but I don’t think it they can adapt the old design into this new design ethos.

I advocate to this kind of solution so much that the time I designed a frame over fan concepts she was gated by design not by energy. Her healing skill was based on transferring her own health, her self-healing relies on hitting enemies with her CC skill, her buffs depended on her ability to gather a unique resource obtained by killing enemies with melee or using her energy based skills on enemies. If you want to have a look. Here it is.

But is it even possible at this point?

Sincerely, I don’t know. kits like Chroma need the existence of energy to even pretend he has skills instead of passives( note: I don’t think Chorma is a good design , as far as I’m concerned he criminally underdelivers his theme and is only good because of a overturned damage buff). Lots of frame have AOE CC or Damage skills with no drawn backs, build up time or set up. The amount of reworks necessary to rework older frames is massive and preventing them from losing their identity in the process is hard. That’s why I tried to buff the baseline energy gain and nerf the high end of the energy gain.

Edited by keikogi
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hace 13 horas, keikogi dijo:

Did you even read the #*!%ing thing, it is buff for most of the player base at the cost energy pizza spam.

No it isn't, and don't pretend it is. Your logic is flawed, not to mention you're ignoring the fact that some builds do not use efficiency or have to sacrifice efficiency and the fact that sometimes duration counts as efficiency or the fact that Leech eximus are a thing or the fact that some frames, even with all those bonuses still have energy issues or the fact that you'll be screwing over frames like Titania, Valkyr or Excalibur big time or the fact that you're gonna make the game more weapon centric just because or the fact that you can't use energy boosters in sanctuary or the fact that Trinity and Harrow exist.

You just posted a rework for a key, base mechanic without taking into account a #*!%ton of factors. This is never gonna happen and the main reason why is because it'll screw over way too many things to count, many of those hardcoded since the beginning of the freaking game. FFS, they removed channeling and it screwed over so many things they are still trying to fix them, and you want them to rework energy?!

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6 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Sincerely, I don’t know. kits like Chroma need the existence of energy to even pretend he has skills instead of passives( note: I don’t think Chorma is a good design , as far as I’m concerned he criminally underdelivers his theme and is only good because of a overturned damage buff). Lots of frame have AOE CC or Damage skills with no drawn backs, build up time or set up. The amount of reworks necessary to rework older frames is massive and preventing them from losing their identity in the process is hard. That’s why I tried to buff the baseline energy gain and nerf the high end of the energy gain.

I personally feel that's actually one of the key reasons why a shift away from Energy would be all the more needed: when you strip away the layer of perfunctory Energy costs, what quickly becomes apparent is that a lot of abilities aren't actual gameplay effects at all, so much as boring power boosts. What's more, the playerbase is already largely aware of this, which is why Chroma has been criticized by many players as boring, precisely because the only two abilities worth using on his kit are about as interactive as an egg timer. Perhaps it doesn't need to happen all at once (you could very well individually rework warframes one by one to no longer use Energy), but applying that sort of philosophy could actually help identify problem abilities much more easily, and redesign boring kits in such a way that they become healthy.

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2 часа назад, ixidron92 сказал:

fact that you're gonna make the game more weapon centric

And unless it is bad, if the weapon becomes the main means, and abilities will be only addition to the weapon? I think it should have been from the beginning. Saryn, barring 4 ability, is designed to use her weapons to maintain her abilities. It's a fun design than pressing 1-4 all the time.

The problem is that most frames without energy are inaros skin, only worse. The energy system in my opinion is bad. I would prefer a system of timers and counters because it doesn't depend on the random energy orbs, but acts either on its own or on my playstyle. At the end of the day, the fact that we have five schools, but people only use zenuric mostly, and a lot of arcanes, but people only use AE mostly, it's not good. Most frames are not capable of working at all without these things. And excuse, to do build on full energy efficiency, questioning equilibrium, rage and AE, to be able play in mechanics frame all time, which not gives large advantages-this normally?

And to be honest, we have weapons, companions, but nothing we can use to defend ourselves. Maximum, this melee block. I would like to have an item that would improve shield/hp and maybe energy aspects. 

A system that requires equipment - is not bad because we can see the progression and not strong by default.

Edited by zhellon
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hace 27 minutos, zhellon dijo:

And unless it is bad, if the weapon becomes the main means, and abilities will be only addition to the weapon? I think it should have been from the beginning. Saryn, barring 4 ability, is designed to use her weapons to maintain her abilities. It's a fun design than pressing 1-4 all the time.

The problem is that most frames without energy are inaros skin, only worse. The energy system in my opinion is bad. I would prefer a system of timers and counters because it doesn't depend on the random energy orbs, but acts either on its own or on my playstyle. At the end of the day, the fact that we have five schools, but people only use zenuric mostly, and a lot of arcanes, but people only use AE mostly, it's not good. Most frames are not capable of working at all without these things. And excuse, to do build on full energy efficiency, questioning equilibrium, rage and AE, to be able play in mechanics frame all time, which not gives large advantages-this normally?

And to be honest, we have weapons, companions, but nothing we can use to defend ourselves. Maximum, this melee block. I would like to have an item that would improve shield/hp and maybe energy aspects. 

A system that requires equipment - is not bad because we can see the progression and not strong by default.

Do you realize that his rework would make frames like Titania unsustainable? He gets rid of efficiency for some energy regeneration nonsense. So, at maximum "void link" as he calls it, you'd get like 5 energy per second, which would counter Titania's Razorwing drain, but then you cannot get energy ever. Exalted weapons can't get energy from his "energy leech" stat, and there are no more energy orbs. With her other abilities costing 25 energy each, you get 12 ability (as opposed to 50 with max efficiency) uses before you're forced out of Razorwing. Unless you encounter a leech eximus, of course.

Now imagine the freaking mess it would be and the chaos it would cause. Since abilities cannot generate energy per kill, everyone would be complaining about mass AoE frames stealing their energy income. It would pit player against player. Everyone would be competing for kills so they can activate their abilities. Everyone will turn selfish and greedy. People would try and avoid teammates to farm kills for energy and the others will complain because they're outside of affinity range so they don't get energy either. You simply can't have an energy income system that rewards competition instead of cooperation, it's downright moronic.

I'm sorry but this guy has no idea of balance, and this "energy rework" is by far one of the worst suggestions I've ever seen in this forum.

Edited by ixidron92
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6 минут назад, ixidron92 сказал:
Do you realize that his rework would make frames like Titania unsustainable? He gets rid of efficiency for some energy regeneration nonsense. So, at maximum "void link" as he calls it, you'd get like 5 energy per second, which would counter Titania's Razorwing drain, but then you cannot get energy ever. Exalted weapons can't get energy from his "energy leech" stat, and there are no more energy orbs. With her other abilities costing 25 energy each, you get 12 ability (as opposed to 50 with max efficiency) uses before you're forced out of Razorwing. Unless you encounter a leech eximus, of course.

Right now my energy drain is 1.25 and I can't get any energy except energy orbs which depend on luck. The offer is bad, the current system is bad too. But his suggestion makes it so that I don't waste energy on flying, which allows me to regenerate energy in normal form and use it wisely in razorwing. 

All the more, can be I will be able do regeneration more, than 5? Even 1 energy / s in razorwing will help a lot and I will still be able to regenerate 6 energy / s in normal form, which makes sense.

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