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The energy system does not work in Warframe.

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hace 1 minuto, zhellon dijo:

Right now my energy drain is 1.25 and I can't get any energy except energy orbs which depend on luck. The offer is bad, the current system is bad too. But his suggestion makes it so that I don't waste energy on flying, which allows me to regenerate energy in normal form and use it wisely in razorwing. 

All the more, can be I will be able do regeneration more, than 5? Even 1 energy / s in razorwing will help a lot and I will still be able to regenerate 6 energy / s in normal form, which makes sense.

The energy drain is 1.25 at max efficiency, but he wants to get rid of efficiency, meaning the drain will be baseline 5/s and her abilities would cost 25 energy, and you'd get no energy orbs and no way to recover energy in Razorwing mode at all. At least now the energy drain is 1.25 AND you can get orbs. How's his system any better with a drain of 5 and no orbs?

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24 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Do you realize that his rework would make frames like Titania unsustainable? He gets rid of efficiency for some energy regeneration nonsense. So, at maximum "void link" as he calls it, you'd get like 5 energy per second, which would counter Titania's Razorwing drain, but then you cannot get energy ever. Exalted weapons can't get energy from his "energy leech" stat, and there are no more energy orbs. With her other abilities costing 25 energy each, you get 12 ability (as opposed to 50 with max efficiency) uses before you're forced out of Razorwing. Unless you encounter a leech eximus, of course.

You might have glossed over this

16 hours ago, keikogi said:

Also channeled skills no longer prevent energy regeneration.

Void link is at base 3 to 5 depending on the frame, if you use efficiency mods it goes up wards of 12 to 20, both version are strong enough to sustain razorwing while generating energy.

24 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Now imagine the freaking mess it would be and the chaos it would cause. Since abilities cannot generate energy per kill, everyone would be complaining about mass AoE frames stealing their energy income. It would pit player against player. Everyone would be competing for kills so they can activate their abilities. Everyone will turn selfish and greedy. People would try and avoid teammates to farm kills for energy and the others will complain because they're outside of affinity range so they don't get energy either. You simply can't have an energy income system that rewards competition instead of cooperation, it's downright moronic.

Ok the text is a bit confusing but

16 hours ago, keikogi said:

Kills by allied warframe within affinity range will generate half of the amount of energy generated by a weapon would.

They don’t generate energy for the caster , everyone else gets half of the energy they would get if they killed these with a weapon

3 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

No it isn't, and don't pretend it is. Your logic is flawed, not to mention you're ignoring the fact that some builds do not use efficiency or have to sacrifice efficiency and the fact that sometimes duration counts as efficiency or the fact that Leech eximus are a thing or the fact that some frames, even with all those bonuses still have energy issues or the fact that you'll be screwing over frames like Titania, Valkyr or Excalibu

I don’t expect anyone else to read all comments in this thread besides myself but I already admitted I was overly zealous with exalted weapons, they should receive the weapon treatment not the AOE Skill one ( peacemaker will be the only one treated as a AOE skill)  

 

Edited by keikogi

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9 минут назад, ixidron92 сказал:

The energy drain is 1.25 at max efficiency, but he wants to get rid of efficiency, meaning the drain will be baseline 5/s and her abilities would cost 25 energy, and you'd get no energy orbs and no way to recover energy in Razorwing mode at all. At least now the energy drain is 1.25 AND you can get orbs. How's his system any better with a drain of 5 and no orbs?

16 часов назад, keikogi сказал:

Also channeled skills no longer prevent energy regeneration. A good guess of what would be a warframe base energy regent is somewhere between 3 to 5 energy per second (the ones with 5 energy per second would effectively play as they play right now ).

I'll add an aura of energy regeneration and get what I want.

All the more, in this system will sense share frames on classes, as killers will receive energy for murder of (because this makes sense), supports will have ability to, which not require large number of energy (but and ability to will directed on net support and not will strong), and tanks will be able receive energy as and now, for obtaining damage.

Either way, it's just raw talk, but I see the benefits of this system.

Edited by zhellon
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hace 9 minutos, keikogi dijo:

You might have glossed over this

Void link is at base 3 to 5 depending on the frame, if you use efficiency mods it goes up wards of 12 to 25, both version are strong enough to sustain razorwing while generating energy.

Ok the text is a bit confusing but

They don’t generate energy for the caster , everyone else gets half of the energy they would by killing it with a weapon

I don’t expect anyone else to read all comments in this thread besides myself but I already admitted I was overly zealous with exalted weapons, they should receive the weapon treatment not the AOE Skill one ( peacemaker will be the only one treated as a AOE skill)  

 

25 energy per second? Lol, now it's clear you don't get balance at all.

The text is not confusing. You'll have players fighting and arguing over kills, period. Your system is ridiculous. People would leave the affinity radius on purpose to get more energy for themselves, thus avoiding others with mass AoE who are stealing kills and not contributing to energy generation. You cannot reward competition in a cooperative game! People would be fighting to get more kills and thus more energy for themselves. People would loathe AoE skill warframes, because being efficient at killing actually punishes you.

There is no way in hell this has a chance to even be considered. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure the entire energy system is so hardcoded into warframe that you cannot modify the core mechanics without the game's code unraveling.

I cannot stress this enough. Your system is incredibly flawed and will screw over the entire game's balance. Do not expect devs to even think about it, because the amount of work to overhaul something that's not even broken to begin with would be ridiculous.

Edited by ixidron92
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5 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

25 energy per second? Lol, now it's clear you don't get balance at all.

25 was a typo , 20 was the right number. Just a question , do you think 20 or 25 is too much or to little energy.

8 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

The text is not confusing. You'll have players fighting and arguing over kills, period. Your system is ridiculous. People would leave the affinity radius on purpose to get more energy for themselves, thus avoiding others with mass AoE who are stealing kills and not contributing to energy generation. You cannot reward competition in a cooperative game! People would be fighting to get more kills and thus more energy for themselves. People would loathe AoE skill warframes, because being efficient at killing actually punishes you.

I could just change it from half efficiency to full efficiency problem solved.

8 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

There is no way in hell this has a chance to even be considered. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure the entire energy system is so hardcoded into warframe that you cannot modify the core mechanics without the game's code unraveling.

This entire system is just harrow thurible with extra steps, just give it to everyone and make energy orb drop chance 0%.

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hace 19 minutos, keikogi dijo:

25 was a typo , 20 was the right number. Just a question , do you think 20 or 25 is too much or to little energy.

I could just change it from half efficiency to full efficiency problem solved.

This entire system is just harrow thurible with extra steps, just give it to everyone and make energy orb drop chance 0%.

25 is way too much and 20 changes nothing. You'd be spamming abilities all day long. Even with Zenurik you regenerate 5 per second and at max efficiency most abilities cost 6.25 minimum. Look, you're just changing an already delicate system for something impossible to balance. Which brings me to to another point.

You're basically making the Zenurik effect baseline for every frame. What's the point of changing the efficiency system from making abilities cost 4 times less to make you regenerate energy 4 times faster? It changes nothing while making everything more complicated for no reasonable purpose. Do you realize that regenerating 5 energy per second and having abilities cost 4 times less is basically the same as regenerating 20 energy per second and having abilities cost their baseline energy? You're literally doing the same thing you're complaining about, but with extra steps.

And even if it's full efficiency, we'll still have the problem of mass AoE frames getting punished for doing their job. Who's gonna enjoy getting screwed by doing what you're supposed to do? Give me a reason why should I use Sol Gate, which would reduce my energy regeneration and prevent my from gaining energy from kills, over using my ignis, which doesn't reduce my energy regeneration and gives me energy every time I kill someone with it.

Now you also want to give everyone Harrow's ability as a permanent passive. And that solves the energy problem you've been complaining how exactly? If anything it makes it worse. You say the system is broken because with efficiency, Zenurik and arcane energize we generate too much energy, but you want to award energy per enemy killed and give everyone the zenurik ability as baseline while changing the efficiency system to work effectively the same way as it's right now, just in reverse.

In the end, your entire system could be summarized in complicating things for similar results, having to rebalance everything energy related and nerfing energy boosters (for some reason).

Do you realize how crazy this is?

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16 минут назад, ixidron92 сказал:

You're basically making the Zenurik effect baseline for every frame. What's the point of changing the efficiency system from making abilities cost 4 times less to make you regenerate energy 4 times faster? It changes nothing while making everything more complicated for no reasonable purpose. Do you realize that regenerating 5 energy per second and having abilities cost 4 times less is basically the same as regenerating 20 energy per second and having abilities cost their baseline energy? You're literally doing the same thing you're complaining about, but with extra steps.

That's not quite true. In addition to cost and energy regeneration, you have an energy pool that has its maximum. If you have 200 energy, then in the current system you will need zenuric + 40 seconds to fill it. At the same time, if we have an ability worth 25 energy, then we will need 10 uses (25-5 - since regeneration is active) to completely empty it. With full energy efficiency, you get (6.5 - 5 = 1.5) 133 uses.

Now consider the regeneration system that came in the proposal. When we regenerate energy in 5 units, we get the same results (filling 200 energy in 40 seconds). But under the condition of 20 energy/s we get 10 seconds to fill. Now take the same ability for 25 energy. The same results with standard characteristics (10 uses), but with full energy efficiency you get (25-20 = 5) 40 uses. 

That is, in the end, the regeneration system does only that you can recover your energy faster, but reduces your ability to use the abilities. And increasing energy reserves will work better in this system for spam builds.

Just need to work on the numbers. Although, I don't mind if DE just remove the energy drain problem.

Edited by zhellon
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26 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

25 is way too much and 20 changes nothing. You'd be spamming abilities all day long. Even with Zenurik you regenerate 5 per second and at max efficiency most abilities cost 6.25 minimum. Look, you're just changing an already delicate system for something impossible to balance. Which brings me to to another point.

You're basically making the Zenurik effect baseline for every frame. What's the point of changing the efficiency system from making abilities cost 4 times less to make you regenerate energy 4 times faster? It changes nothing while making everything more complicated for no reasonable purpose. Do you realize that regenerating 5 energy per second and having abilities cost 4 times less is basically the same as regenerating 20 energy per second and having abilities cost their baseline energy? You're literally doing the same thing you're complaining about, but with extra steps.

Did you stop to thing me not changing the maximum energy regenetarion was kinda of the point ? New player have acces to energy right out of the bat with is a big deal. Old players get to effectively enjoy the same energy income they have now. 

26 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

And even if it's full efficiency, we'll still have the problem of mass AoE frames getting punished for doing their job. Who's gonna enjoy getting screwed by doing what you're supposed to do? Give me a reason why should I use Sol Gate, which would reduce my energy regeneration and prevent my from gaining energy from kills, over using my ignis, which doesn't reduce my energy regeneration and gives me energy every time I kill someone with it.

Thats kind of the point really .If mass AOE frame works well noone can even play the game. My system attemps to force the mass AOE player to eithet use his weapons once a full moon or just rely on the stadard energy regenaration. Why the are you using sol gate right now ? Ignis is ,most of the time, a better choice as it right now.

26 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Now you also want to give everyone Harrow's ability as a permanent passive. And that solves the energy problem you've been complaining how exactly? If anything it makes it worse. You say the system is broken because with efficiency, Zenurik and arcane energize we generate too much energy, but you want to award energy per enemy killed and give everyone the zenurik ability as baseline while changing the efficiency system to work effectively the same way as it's right now, just in reverse.

Do you realy thing I cara about people having 100% uptime on buff or using their skill every 5 seconds , not at all. I care about the fact I can ignore the existence of energy in warframe if a keybind the large energy restore to my Q and then skill. Seriously there is no point on have a mana on a game if the player has unlimited mana without at least interacting with the enemy.

26 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

In the end, your entire system could be summarized in complicating things for similar results, having to rebalance everything energy related and nerfing energy boosters (for some reason).

Such a hard system to grasp.

stuff dies without me casting a skill,I receive energy.

Time passes , I receive energy.

 

Edited by keikogi

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So to preface, I just want to make it clear from the start that I'm not really a supporter of the OP's proposed system, as I've challenged it and suggested a completely different alternative. However, I think there are many exaggerations and inaccuracies in the post I'm responding to here:

4 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

25 is way too much and 20 changes nothing. You'd be spamming abilities all day long. Even with Zenurik you regenerate 5 per second and at max efficiency most abilities cost 6.25 minimum. Look, you're just changing an already delicate system for something impossible to balance. Which brings me to to another point.

This line of argumentation ignores the fact that keikogi is proposing to remove ability efficiency as a stat entirely, meaning that even if you're regenerating 25 or 20 Energy a second, you're going to be paying at least 25 Energy per cast. 6.25 divided by 5 is the literal exact same as 25 divided by 20 (1.25), so you are mathematically demonstrating that they are in fact bang on the money in their calculations. The claim also fails to explain why such a proposal would be "impossible to balance": I personally think it may run into some balance problems, but not for the reasons you're bringing up, and in fact because the OP proposes such a simplified Energy economy, it would in fact be a lot easier to balance than the current system.

4 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

You're basically making the Zenurik effect baseline for every frame. What's the point of changing the efficiency system from making abilities cost 4 times less to make you regenerate energy 4 times faster? It changes nothing while making everything more complicated for no reasonable purpose. Do you realize that regenerating 5 energy per second and having abilities cost 4 times less is basically the same as regenerating 20 energy per second and having abilities cost their baseline energy? You're literally doing the same thing you're complaining about, but with extra steps.

This line of argumentation ignores the fact that making the Zenurik effect baseline for every frame means players don't have to wait until they obtain Zenurik, nor do they have to commit to Zenurik, to start using their abilities as often as they should. As such, this actually makes the Energy economy simpler to balance, because it would be predicated upon universal factors accessed by all players, rather than higher-end customization features not everyone may have equipped. I also question what additional complication there is here when the OP is proposing to take a complex system of regen, orbs, and cost modifiers, and condense it down to regen and Energy rewards per kill.

4 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

And even if it's full efficiency, we'll still have the problem of mass AoE frames getting punished for doing their job. Who's gonna enjoy getting screwed by doing what you're supposed to do? Give me a reason why should I use Sol Gate, which would reduce my energy regeneration and prevent my from gaining energy from kills, over using my ignis, which doesn't reduce my energy regeneration and gives me energy every time I kill someone with it.

Because presumably, Sol Gate would be balanced around its Energy cost, such that its power would be so superior to that of a weapon's that it would be worth deploying, if only for more special occasions. It is worth mentioning that whichever abilities that would persistently prevent Energy regen under the OP's proposal are already abilities that do so now, and also drain Energy, so it is strange to claim a difference where none exists.

4 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

Now you also want to give everyone Harrow's ability as a permanent passive. And that solves the energy problem you've been complaining how exactly? If anything it makes it worse.

Worse... how? No part of your post substantiates this claim, and it only takes a slight amount of good faith in this discussion to be able to imagine that the OP is trying to create a harmony between abilities and weapons, such that players are encouraged to fight with weapons in order to fuel their abilities more. This solves the problem of Energy currently being unreliable when one expects it to drop via Energy orbs, while also solving the problem of certain frames abandoning the use of weapons entirely, as the stat could encourage them to partake in more gun/swordplay.

4 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

You say the system is broken because with efficiency, Zenurik and arcane energize we generate too much energy, but you want to award energy per enemy killed and give everyone the zenurik ability as baseline while changing the efficiency system to work effectively the same way as it's right now, just in reverse.

The two halves of your sentence do not follow from each other: sure, keikogi is proposing to give everyone Energy regen and Energy per weapon kill... but how exactly does this break the game? The current system is broken because the combination of the aforementioned factors is so strong that it trivializes Energy costs: what is it about the proposal that is excessively strong in that same manner?

4 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

In the end, your entire system could be summarized in complicating things for similar results, having to rebalance everything energy related and nerfing energy boosters (for some reason).

Do you realize how crazy this is?

Call me crazy, but I'm not seeing it. I have my own issues with the proposal, but compared to the current state of Energy, it simplifies the system, proposes a rebalance that is ultimately far smaller than many other systemic changes, including the melee rework we just got, and justifiably nerfs Energy pizzas when they are known to be used for infinite free Energy in niche missions that are otherwise intended to offer some type of challenges (i.e. Tridolon runs). It would allow newer players to use abilities with far fewer issues, while also bridging the gap between them and veterans, so that generating Energy for casting would always follow the same paradigm, instead of being this feast-or-famine RNG fest for newer players that eventually turns into mindless unlimited casting once the right items/Operator passives are unlocked.

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So same is worth add, that can be rebalance the cost of themselves abilities, to strong ability to cost many energy, and weak almost its not spent, that will allow them always be under hand. Thus, the balance of abilities can change without rebalancing the strength of abilities relative to each other.

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Edited for clarity. Added a more detailed explanations of why the current energy system is broken. Exalted weapons work as any other weapon regarding the Void leech stat ( peacemaker is a exception). Added blind rage to the list of reworked mods, reworked the zenurik passive.

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

So same is worth add, that can be rebalance the cost of themselves abilities, to strong ability to cost many energy, and weak almost its not spent, that will allow them always be under hand. Thus, the balance of abilities can change without rebalancing the strength of abilities relative to each other.

DE realized that fairly recently, warframe was plagued for years by the parading of abilities costing 25,50,75,100 energy. At least newer frame are flexible with their cost , wisp uses 25,35,50 as her costs. Nidus does not fallow the standard cost either.

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18 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

I never understood the insistence on and obsession with "mana" that modern game developers have. It always sucked and everyone just tried to bypass it anyway in MMOs and RPGs, and it feels like it's just popular because it's a game design crutch.

If it was my choice, I'd dump the energy system entirely in favor of frame specific synergies, meter systems and resource management.

Playing Grendel, I can't help but remark on the fact that he would be 100% more smooth and fun to play if he didn't use energy at all, and straight up managed his abilities through his eating mechanics. That frame has strongly highlighted just how much the energy system needlessly hampers the gameplay in Warframe.

i agree with this. Energy mechanics feel outdated. I would prefer a more intuitive exhaustion mechanic. One where we could spam powers, but they become less effective (shorter duration, damage, range, etc) . After a while, we as players will naturally learn the rhythm and "rest" powers as needed from spam. No staring at energy meters, no staring at cooldown numbers. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i agree with this. Energy mechanics feel outdated. I would prefer a more intuitive exhaustion mechanic. One where we could spam powers, but they become less effective (shorter duration, damage, range, etc) . After a while, we as players will naturally learn the rhythm and "rest" powers as needed from spam. No staring at energy meters, no staring at cooldown numbers. 

They more or less tried that with Simaris in ESO and it sucked.

The solution to the issue of unfun resource management already exists in fighting games and has been well established for over a decade: All or most of your abilities are fully available at all times, but you gain enhanced versions by building and spending meter, or gain special properties on your abilities by using them correctly (this one is all over Arcsys games).

Grendel actually already does an analog of this (you build his other skills by using his 1), and many frames already have enhanced versions of abilities that are triggered by using abilities correctly (Atlas rubble, Nezha just... Kinda in general). Gauss and Ember explicitly have an actual meter system, even if Embers is heavily devalued by being chained to the energy system. Really, the energy mechanic could just be stripped out and all it would take is some adjustments to the mechanics of various frames and it would *mostly* just be an improvement while nothing other than the experience really changes. 

The problem with *most* resource management systems is that they penalize the player for playing the game to its fullest, instead of rewarding them. DE wants an active game, but the energy system has always stood in the way of that. Regardless of how many people want to blame spamability, it's not actually a problem of the energy system itself, people SHOULD be using their abilities constantly, that's part of how you make the game "active." The problem is probably more the abilities themselves being... Maybe not as conveniently designed as they should or maybe could be. 

The game should encourage you to use your abilities more, not less, and reward you when you use them well. Nezha is about the best frame in the game for demonstrating this, even if his chakram is... Buggy. Movement, skill order, targeting of skills, even his equipped weapons, everything in Nezha's kit comes together cohesively and rewards you for using it together. In a completely open ended manner too. Post-rework Nezha is probably the best designed frame in the game.

Edited by XaoGarrent
Looked back and realized I did a terrible job of getting a certain point across.
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All this does is bring back ability cooldowns in a worse way, because the abilities will not suddenly stop being spammy, they will just negate using any ability that you don’t need in favour of regenerating energy for the ability you want faster.

At least with regular cooldowns casting your 1, 2 and 3 didn’t delay casting your 4....

Cooldowns were tried before, in the classic sense, without success. Players would disengage from the game while their abilities were on cooldown and simply wait for them to be up, changing a fast-paced action shooter into a slow MOBA. While some people like those, Warframe isn’t a MOBA and shouldn’t play like one.

DE changed that out for Energy so that we use it as a form of Ammo. This created a system where abilities are active parts of the game, sometimes even the primary method of play for a frame, where abilities can be active in different ways, such as drains or auras.

While the methods of casting could be adapted to the energy regen system, the rest? No.

All the energy regen method does is revert to cooldowns and make it worse than it was.

 

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I honestly would not try to fix what's not broken, because this can essentially break frames that does not use energy, like Hildryn.

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8 минут назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

All the energy regen method does is revert to cooldowns and make it worse than it was.

Can we remove zenuric, arcanes, rage and see how it is implemented now? The current system works on crutches. You can't deny it.

9 минут назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

At least with regular cooldowns casting your 1, 2 and 3 didn’t delay casting your 4....

This can be solved by rebalancing the cost and strength of abilities or by synergy sets. You can't ignore a high cost ability if it's stronger than a low cost ability and you can't ignore a low cost ability if you don't have enough energy for a high cost ability and you can't ignore abilities if they work in a bundle because it reduces your strength overall. Yes, you can give up abilities in certain situations to accumulate energy for another ability. It's called tactics. 

The problem is that the current system only encourages the use of duration abilities. If you spam frame, then you can't do without things like AE and zenurc/rage. If you spam the frame with the ability to drain energy, the earth you rest in peace. 

Garuda works in the current system because she knows how to use 1 resource to replenish another. Hildryn works in this system because drain's abilities do not block shield regeneration, and shields regenerate themselves. (Yes, shields can't regenerate themselves when you use abilities, but that's due to shield mechanics, not drain mechanics.) Most frames are simply not capable of running by default on the current system.

Zephyr 1 is a good ability that allows you to be more mobile in the air, but you don't use it most of the time because "it's not worth the energy in combat." The ability is not bad, it provides playstyle, but in the current system you can not use it in favor of other abilities. That is, this problem that you describe now.

 

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17 минут назад, Aadi880 сказал:

I honestly would not try to fix what's not broken, because this can essentially break frames that does not use energy, like Hildryn.

How will changes in the energy system break down frames that don't use energy? Hildryn my main now, on this me very interestingly.

Maybe the removal of energy orbs is the nerf of the flying Bastille and you will no longer be able to charge your operator, but I think this problem can also be solved.

Edited by zhellon

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1 minute ago, zhellon said:

How will changes in the energy system break down frames that don't use energy? Hildryn my main now, on this me very interestingly.

If abilities get cooldowns, then it can prevent a player from using a ability when they need it, which includes Hildryn. And while hyldrin uses shields, it should be known that the game treats her "energy pool" and the "shield" as the same entity (due to the lack of a better word). This can also affect arcanes that supplements her shield regeneration.

Look at Gauss. His thermal sunder ability almost demands spamming (double-casting), and not everyone will have Redline active to make it single cast (SPECIALLY since duration works inversely with Gauss's Redline).

Another example is Trinity. As a trinity player in eidelon hunts, players would end up losing a lot of health in a continuous fashion (Happened more often than I'd like to admit), which often has me double casting blessing as well as EV because my team needs the energy.

Same goes for Volt's shield, which is casted multiple times in succession in eidelon hunts.

 

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5 минут назад, Aadi880 сказал:

If abilities get cooldowns

Oh, you just haven't commented, so I'm confused as to what exactly you're answering. The OP offers an energy regeneration system rather than cooldowns. It's just that there is some similarity with the cooldowns system, because if the ability costs 25 energy and you regenerate 25 energy / second, it turns out that your ability is restored in 1 second. You can spam, but you will need time to cooldown if you spam a lot.

It won't affect hildryn because she has her own system. There is nothing to prevent making several energy systems that will fit the frames. 

Edited by zhellon

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47 minutes ago, zhellon said:

The current system works on crutches. You can't deny it.

No, but taking a massive step backwards won’t solve that.

I would go the opposite direction to energy regen.

If DE wants energy to be used as Ammo, then make it so. Have reliable energy drops from enemies, have more abilities with situational energy refund mechanics, have more engagement with the actual function of ‘play the game more to be rewarded more’.

So heck yes to remove Zenurik’s gains. Have more mechanics like Rage, where you’re trading survivability for power, have more functions like ‘get ten sniper headshots for guaranteed energy orbs’. Arcane Energise is strong, yes, so prevent it doubling up and it’s more balanced, but that is the exact kind of mechanism that needs to be implemented more across the game instead of more regen.

Active play, knowing that if you kill a few more enemies, or perform a finisher or a specific melee sequence, you generate energy... that beats standing in a corner waiting for your abilities to come back every time.

Edited by Birdframe_Prime

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A cooldown or limited amount of restores that you can bring in a mission could be nice to make things more challenging

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8 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

agree with this. Energy mechanics feel outdated. I would prefer a more intuitive exhaustion mechanic. One where we could spam powers, but they become less effective (shorter duration, damage, range, etc) . After a while, we as players will naturally learn the rhythm and "rest" powers as needed from spam. No staring at energy meters, no staring at cooldown numbers. 

 

5 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

They more or less tried that with Simaris in ESO and it sucked.

They didn't really try that system. Exastion system are progressive first cast full effect , second consecutive cast slitly worse effect , third cast bad effect , fourth cast isn't even worth the casting time. What we have first cast full effect , second cast full effect third caat duck you hunter you are ruining my shonen simulation.

5 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

The solution to the issue of unfun resource management already exists in fighting games and has been well established for over a decade: All or most of your abilities are fully available at all times, but you gain enhanced versions by building and spending meter, or gain special properties on your abilities by using them correctly (this one is all over Arcsys games).

Yes but fighting games are desineg around that and the truly obnoxious moves are gated by resources. Are there fihting moves that hit the enetire screen and have almost no recovery time ? Yes. Can you use than more than 2 times per round ? No. How many attacks warframes have that hit the entire map ?

 

But don't misunderstand me , I don't think resourse are the best way to deal with ability overuse , the best way to do that is proper ability desing. Why I did not try do redsing abilities instead ?

To many warframes , some of them are unreworkable. Chroma very identity is a MOA that makes gun shoot better ,  if you try to change that players will riot. Seriously chroma kit can be described as 2 passives and two butttons two enable hard mode.

 

 

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15 минут назад, Birdframe_Prime сказал:

Active play, knowing that if you kill a few more enemies, or perform a finisher or a specific melee sequence, you generate energy... that beats standing in a corner waiting for your abilities to come back every time.

It's paracesis. It's in the game.

The problem is that you come from mechanics that only ENCOURAGE KILLING AND NOTHING MORE. You will only strengthen some frames and weaken others.  Personally, I want the energy to regenerate on its own and the abilities to be a tactical advantage rather than a reward. 

Moreover, why should you stand? Energy should become a limiter against spam. If you correctly manage the energy and use it with weapons, then you will not have any problems. Why do you make extra crutches in the form of killing enemies or finishing blows? It doesn't work. More precisely works... With arcanes and zenuric/rage.

Although, why I argue, after all OP as times offers the, that you want and this not mutually exclusive things.

Edited by zhellon

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Thread cleaned from a few unconstructive posts.

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1 hour ago, zhellon said:

This can be solved by rebalancing the cost and strength of abilities or by synergy sets.

At this point, you're looking at a full game overhaul that would ultimately make the game less fun and not solve the problem.

Mesa and Saryn need a nerf to their 'Press button to wipe map', then we can rebalance abilities. Energy is really not the problem when half of all WF abilities are just flat out non-viable.

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