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keikogi

The energy system does not work in Warframe.

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Только что, Colyeses сказал:
Mesa and Saryn need a nerf to their 'Press button to wipe map', then we can rebalance abilities. Energy is really not the problem when half of all WF abilities are just flat out non-viable.

Mesa doesn't need nerf. Her attacking abilities are good, but her control and defense are frankly bad. That is, it is in the balance as DPS. Saryn, too, not needs in nerf, need only simply limit use 4 ability to, that can be done under reprocessing system energy.

2 минуты назад, Colyeses сказал:

game less fun

You can't use the frame's unique abilities right now because energy orbs drops affect your efficiency. Without abilities, frames are just a set of survival characteristics. Arcane Energyze, zenuric and rage are crutches for making frames more viable. I support the current proposal because it allows you to get rid of these things and do more finely tuned builds using other arcanes for example. So I don't know what you mean by fun. The current system ruins the fun. The crutches that are offered also ruin that fun. If you have another way to solve this problem, voice it, I am very interested. 

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14 minutes ago, zhellon said:

The current system ruins the fun.

How does the current system ruin the fun? How does it ruin the fun to have your abilities available instead of twiddling your thumbs waiting for CDs?

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13 минут назад, Colyeses сказал:

How does the current system ruin the fun? How does it ruin the fun to have your abilities available instead of twiddling your thumbs waiting for CDs?

First of all, once again, who even talked about CD? Yes, abilities will be limited to use because that's what the energy system has to do. But it is something that must be done wisely.

Second, look at my build:

Спойлер

VsmJbis.jpg

The problem is that in the current system, only those frames that are either well protected or temporarily use their abilities have energy. If you spam and you have an energy drain - you are not working well in the current system. OP suggests making spam abilities available but limited by energy pool and regeneration, and energy drain only limited regeneration, thus making spam more difficult (you can use drain abilities indefinitely, but this will limit your other abilities). The problem is that if in the current system I can very easily be left without energy and to avoid this I need a lot of crutches (a lot of people use zenuric + AE, which already hints that the system is bad). Now, I'll write it again. Remove zenuric/AE/rage and go on a normal mission. Can you use abilities all the time? Yes, but only on a very small number of frames. Everyone else doesn't work without crutches.

Third, the drop in energy orbs depends on how often you kill. If you play alone, you have fewer mobs, which means fewer energy orbs, but you have the same price for abilities.

Edited by zhellon

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3 minutes ago, zhellon said:

The problem is that if in the current system I can very easily be left without energy and to avoid this I need a lot of crutches (a lot of people use zenuric + AE, which already hints that the system is bad). Now, I'll write it again. Remove zenuric/AE/rage and go on a normal mission. Can you use abilities all the time? Yes, but only on a very small number of frames. Everyone else doesn't work without crutches.

So the issue is that some frames don't work well without Zenurik + AE, and some frames do, and from that distinction you arrived at the conclusion that all frames have a problem and thus the entire energy system needs to be reworked as opposed to fixing those specific frames that have the issues?

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Только что, Colyeses сказал:

So the issue is that some frames don't work well without Zenurik + AE, and some frames do, and from that distinction you arrived at the conclusion that all frames have a problem and thus the entire energy system needs to be reworked as opposed to fixing those specific frames that have the issues?

Yes. Because you have to start with a fundamental balance. Do you think Saryn works without crutches? Try. You offer a nerf frame that has become strong because of the imperfection of the energy system.

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Just now, zhellon said:

Yes. Because you have to start with a fundamental balance. Do you think Saryn works without crutches? Try. You offer a nerf frame that has become strong because of the imperfection of the energy system.

No, they've become strong because viral procs effectively double the damage output against targets and Miasma has 100% proc chance, on top of a 4x damage multiplier on spored enemies, which also spreads spores. Both Spores and Miasma have huge AoE and don't require LoS, which makes them a really quick, really low effort way to wipe a huge area that is very consistently available. 

You can rework the entire energy system but it won't fix the underlying issue of Miasma/Spores being broken. You can trash her energy economy, sure, but that will be balanced to keep her playable and thus OP, or render her unplayable. 

A much better solution is gameplay intensive checks and balances like what Nidus, Harrow and now Ember offer. (Though Ember to a lesser extent) Because it keeps gameplay flowing and enhances it, rather than diminishing it.

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1 hour ago, zhellon said:

The problem is that you come from mechanics that only ENCOURAGE KILLING AND NOTHING MORE. 

Where do I say that?

I advocate for active options, for being rewarded for that performing an action, not for waiting for a cooldown.

Look at Nezha’s 2, a self sustaining function if used well, or Nidus’ 2-1 combo. Kills are part of it, but they are not the whole of it.

Why would you stand in a corner? Because that’s exactly why DE removed cooldowns in the first place; people didn’t interact with the game when they ran out of abilities, they moved away, hid, waited for their abilities to come back and then moved on.

And you are never going to remove spam by limiting energy, you remove spam by changing the abilities to benefit non-spam tactics. As long as spam has a better result, it will be the first course of action no matter how you try to limit the resource.

Beyond that? DE not only know that the spam exists, they actively encourage it in many cases. So the entire aim of this thread is pointless, and a step in the wrong direction.

Warframe is a fast paced action game based around either killing or ignoring the most number of enemies at once. Slowing down abilities isn’t a way forward. Making abilities and weapons more interactive and with more ways to achieve a goal than just spamming is.

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2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

DE changed that out for Energy so that we use it as a form of Ammo. This created a system where abilities are active parts of the game, sometimes even the primary method of play for a frame, where abilities can be active in different ways, such as drains or auras.

Yes but not really. Energy was originally premium ammo , and a really mean the premium part. The true face of the warframe energy system is what we have during the grendel missions. This is what most players in this game deal with and what the smashing majority of player that have ever played warframe saw. How do I know that , steam achievements. Assuming everyone that killed teralist has access to all the all players that killed a terry has access to all the efficiency, zenurik and arcanes. Only 5.5% of the players that ever played warframe have ever played outside of the grendel missions.

Also my system is not meant to stop the energy flow or ability casting at all, in fact it would increase the ability usage by most players because the tools that give you a meaningful amount of energy are available right out of the bat. Kill enemies, get energy. Wait around get energy.

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2 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

I honestly would not try to fix what's not broken, because this can essentially break frames that does not use energy, like Hildryn.

it is broken , also Hildryn can receive compensation buffs to her costs.

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1 минуту назад, keikogi сказал:

it is broken , also Hildryn can receive compensation buffs to her costs.

If hildryn starts getting shields for murder, it will become an OP. Although, I wouldn't mind if the damage didn't disrupt the shields recovery. Now we use Aegis and it would allow to refuse it.

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32 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

No, they've become strong because viral procs effectively double the damage output against targets and Miasma has 100% proc chance, on top of a 4x damage multiplier on spored enemies, which also spreads spores. Both Spores and Miasma have huge AoE and don't require LoS, which makes them a really quick, really low effort way to wipe a huge area that is very consistently available. 

You can rework the entire energy system but it won't fix the underlying issue of Miasma/Spores being broken. You can trash her energy economy, sure, but that will be balanced to keep her playable and thus OP, or render her unplayable. 

A much better solution is gameplay intensive checks and balances like what Nidus, Harrow and now Ember offer. (Though Ember to a lesser extent) Because it keeps gameplay flowing and enhances it, rather than diminishing it.

This entire system is meant to give the DEVs the necessary tools to gate abilities if they choose to do so. Saryn is killed everything in a 2 mile radius, reduce her base energy regeneration and increase her energy regeneration per kill. Killing enemies with her own skills does not generate energy so she will eventually starve. She can either kill enemies with her gun to get energy or allow her allies to do so, both ways she gets energy and can go back to nuking.

Edited by keikogi
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1 minute ago, zhellon said:

If hildryn starts getting shields for murder, it will become an OP. Although, I wouldn't mind if the damage didn't disrupt the shields recovery. Now we use Aegis and it would allow to refuse it.

I don't mind buffs tho her shields either I just find it so backwards that the most durable Hildirn build is based on having no shields. ( Did they nerf that build or it still around? )

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1 минуту назад, keikogi сказал:
I don't mind buffs tho her shields either I just find it so backwards that the most durable Hildirn build is based on having no shields. ( Did they nerf that build or it still around? )

These builds are only effective on OPlvl. I'm fine using shields as maintank with arcane aegis + 3500 shields + adaptation and using 800 hp + adaptatipn + arcanes grace so I don't get bothered by slash/toxin issues. It works just like inaros, but you have shieldgate and useful abilities. I can take shield dog and fly all the time unlike Titania.

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1 hour ago, keikogi said:

This entire system is meant to give the DEVs the necessary tools to gate abilities if they choose to do so. Saryn is killed everything in a 2 mile radius, reduce her base energy regeneration and increase her energy regeneration per kill. Killing enemies with her own skills does not generate energy so she will eventually starve. She can either kill enemies with her gun to get energy or allow her allies to do so, both ways she gets energy and can go back to nuking.

And you want to rework the entire system to fix Saryn and Mesa?

Why not just fix Saryn and Mesa?

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7 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

And you want to rework the entire system to fix Saryn and Mesa?

Why not just fix Saryn and Mesa?

In the post there is even mention of saryn ? Mesa receives a note about peace maker not being considered an exalted weapon it is considered a skill as far as this system is concerned. 

My problem is , there is 2 energy system in warframe. One for new player and another one for veteran's. The system for new player is broken because it is too rash , new players barely use skill because they don't have energy. Thr system for veteran's is broken because thr energy cost are trivial at best and if I really want I can deny the very existence of the energy system of I'm willing to use enought energy pizzas.

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1 час назад, keikogi сказал:

My problem is , there is 2 energy system in warframe. One for new player and another one for veteran's. The system for new player is broken because it is too rash , new players barely use skill because they don't have energy. Thr system for veteran's is broken because thr energy cost are trivial at best and if I really want I can deny the very existence of the energy system of I'm willing to use enought energy pizzas.

If I provide a guy with every essential warframe mod and some arcanes he won't become a veteran in one week.

I am a veteran, and I barely feel energy restrictions since I tend to use frames benefitting from duration allowing me to use less spam and enhancing my gunplay.

Before zenuriks and energizes there always been spamframes. You could sarynfart, rhinostomp etc. And there never was absolute necessity to use abilities, or even outright spam them to be successful, unless you hardcore farm some stuff.

It always boils down to pesonal playstyle really. Everything always did.

 

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25 минут назад, Miyabi-sama сказал:

If I provide a guy with every essential warframe mod and some arcanes he won't become a veteran in one week.

I am a veteran, and I barely feel energy restrictions since I tend to use frames benefitting from duration allowing me to use less spam and enhancing my gunplay.

Before zenuriks and energizes there always been spamframes. You could sarynfart, rhinostomp etc. And there never was absolute necessity to use abilities, or even outright spam them to be successful, unless you hardcore farm some stuff.

It always boils down to pesonal playstyle really. Everything always did.

Even if you have the frame uses the duration from a new player still have problem with energy. You need 2 orbs of energy for rhino to defend himself and 3 orbs of energy for damage buffs. And the usual breakthrough forward is worth 1 Orb energy. How often will a beginner be able to use 1 ability, which is considered the least expensive?

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3 минуты назад, zhellon сказал:

Even if you have the frame uses the duration from a new player still have problem with energy. You need 2 orbs of energy for rhino to defend himself and 3 orbs of energy for damage buffs. And the usual breakthrough forward is worth 1 Orb energy. How often will a beginner be able to use 1 ability, which is considered the least expensive?

Almost constantly on cooldown. By the time your roar wears off you should find plenty of orbs on the ground. I use umbral rhino with default max energy and efficiency. I know.

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Why are you concerned about how many abilities I use per mission? How does it affect your gameplay? And if you are so anti-social, why not play on solo mode. 

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35 минут назад, Miyabi-sama сказал:

Almost constantly on cooldown. By the time your roar wears off you should find plenty of orbs on the ground. I use umbral rhino with default max energy and efficiency. I know.

Do you see a problem? Your Rhino just doesn't work by default, so you're trying to work with energy to maintain your durability abilities. Spam frames are much worse.

And you never use 1 Rhino ability.

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13 минут назад, zhellon сказал:

Do you see a problem? Your Rhino just doesn't work by default, so you're trying to work with energy to maintain your durability abilities. Spam frames are much worse.

And you never use 1 Rhino ability.

Default max energy = 150

Default efficiency = 100%

Do you see a problem?

And I use all of his abilities if I want to.

Edited by Miyabi-sama

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1 минуту назад, Miyabi-sama сказал:

Default max energy = 150

Default efficiency = 100%

Do you see a problem?

And I use all of his abilities if I want to.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see the word "default".

Are you using zenuric or AE?

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Только что, zhellon сказал:

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see the word "default".

Are you using zenuric or AE?

I use APistoleer and AAwakening.

I use Zenuric once on the mission start, but then I either forget to or don't have time to.

You can slap your skin once and forget about it for a long time if actively prolonging its duration, like dodging shots. You can use Roar sparingly when you have a problem with damage. I also sometimes stomp in crowd. Be sure, basic energy drops are more than enough.

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9 minutes ago, --C--Nehra said:

Why are you concerned about how many abilities I use per mission? How does it affect your gameplay? And if you are so anti-social, why not play on solo mode. 

About 75% of this post is  to buff the energy economy for new player. If you remove 3 lines of this entire post it the biggest buff to energy ever proposed ( namely kills using skills don't regenerete energy , nerfed arcane enegize , nerfed energy pizzas ). Do you really thing my concern is pointless and mindless nerf to abilities? 

Also actually awnsering your question , YES it does affect me not because Of the saryn killing the entire map , it affects me because the energy system only works after 100 hours on the game , before you can get your hands on arcane energize or at least zenurik the energy economy sucks.

Also do you truly beleive people can only complain about stuff that directly affects them ? In that case all complains all fundamentaly meaningless.

You don't like a frame. Don't like it, don't play it.

A frame is clunky to play and has overcosted skills ? Don't like it , don't play it.

A frame can't kill stuff or doesn't have any meaningfull buffs or CC. Don't like it Don't play it.

You Don't like weapon. Don't like it don't play it. 

And the best one

does a frame killing the entire map after casting a skill is problem ?

Evidentely , no. Don't like it , don't play it.( I really mean this there was one time in warframe history you could kill the entire map with one ability) 

I can literally say this to every suggestion in the feed back section ,you chosen to play that frame you can deal with his problens , don't like play something else. Even if you want to strait up buff something I can say I like ot the way it is , why are you are you trying to ruin my thing ?

It is literally the same thing you are saying to me , don't like something avoid it.

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6 минут назад, keikogi сказал:

Also actually awnsering your question , YES it does affect me not because Of the saryn killing the entire map , it affects me because the energy system only works after 100 hours on the game , before you can get your hands on arcane energize or at least zenurik the energy economy sucks.

I wonder how people were doing before focus and arcanes... oh wait, we played just fine.

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