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keikogi

The energy system does not work in Warframe.

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1 minute ago, Miyabi-sama said:

I wonder how people were doing before focus and arcanes... oh wait, we played just fine.

Using trinity as a energy whore and running 75% efficiency.

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9 минут назад, Miyabi-sama сказал:

I wonder how people were doing before focus and arcanes... oh wait, we played just fine.

You wanted Trinity on the team. 

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The fundamental Issue with trying to balance energy generation for Warframes is that not all Warframes require even remotely the same amount of energy to work. Saryns strongest ability costs a mere 25 energy and while she can do a lot by being able to mindlessly spam 1 and 4, it is by no means a necessity as clearly laid out by ESO where she can't spam Miasma via the cast limitations in ESO. Day-Equinox also can just clap-clap for rather little energy with how Maim works.

On the other hand a frame like Ember or Ash need to be able to spam their 4 to do AoE damage as there are more distinct target limitations which requires casting them more often. Especially in the case of the new Ember she also needs to handle her Immolation which is costly either via drain or by constantly casting Fireblast.

Gauss also can be quite energy hungry by needing to maintain 2 buffs and needing to basically spam his 3 for functionality's sake of it alone.

Then there is the opposite side of Frames lIke Inaros or Valkyr. Inaros litterally uses none of his abilities really. Stack 4 once which doesn't even cost energy and maybe pocket sand once in a while. He would be a capable tank witohut any energy ever. Valkyr with her Warcry augment uses it once and keeps it forever. Unless she collides with a Nullifier or goes afk for a while she won't need to cast any other ability the rest of the mission.

Chroma similarly just needs to maintain his 2 buff,s with many even opting to use blind Rage as getting the energy to cast these 2 buffs once in a while is easily gained in the mean time.

There is a huge disparity of how much energy certain warframe sor warframe builds need. By trying to "healthily" limit energy generation you throw a few Warframes under the bus while others just shrug and don't care.

There IS a lot of value in trying to normalize it so people don't need to rely on specifc stuff like Zenurik or Energize. But thats more about the source of energy not an attempt to rebalance the entire system. Efficiency is also a sensible stat. Yeah its super powerful but fleeting in particular costs duration and duration is also highly valuable on a lot of Frames. It is a decent trade-off and enough people like to use P FLow in addition or instead as it helps capitalize on bursty energy gains more than efficiency does. Making it increased reg just pidgeonholes people into flow as you will just overcap otherwise.


It might be valuable to rebalance the entire energy economy for the long-term but its a humongous task as it also needs a rebalance of all Warframes, which is hardly doable any time soon.

 

Edited by Raikh
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1 hour ago, Raikh said:

The fundamental Issue with trying to balance energy generation for Warframes is that not all Warframes require even remotely the same amount of energy to work. Saryns strongest ability costs a mere 25 energy and while she can do a lot by being able to mindlessly spam 1 and 4, it is by no means a necessity as clearly laid out by ESO where she can't spam Miasma via the cast limitations in ESO. Day-Equinox also can just clap-clap for rather little energy with how Maim works.

On the other hand a frame like Ember or Ash need to be able to spam their 4 to do AoE damage as there are more distinct target limitations which requires casting them more often. Especially in the case of the new Ember she also needs to handle her Immolation which is costly either via drain or by constantly casting Fireblast.

Gauss also can be quite energy hungry by needing to maintain 2 buffs and needing to basically spam his 3 for functionality's sake of it alone.

Then there is the opposite side of Frames lIke Inaros or Valkyr. Inaros litterally uses none of his abilities really. Stack 4 once which doesn't even cost energy and maybe pocket sand once in a while. He would be a capable tank witohut any energy ever. Valkyr with her Warcry augment uses it once and keeps it forever. Unless she collides with a Nullifier or goes afk for a while she won't need to cast any other ability the rest of the mission.

Chroma similarly just needs to maintain his 2 buff,s with many even opting to use blind Rage as getting the energy to cast these 2 buffs once in a while is easily gained in the mean time.

There is a huge disparity of how much energy certain warframe sor warframe builds need. By trying to "healthily" limit energy generation you throw a few Warframes under the bus while others just shrug and don't care.

I agree with you , in fact I've staded each frame would receive a unique value for their energy regeneration per kill and their e energy regeneration per second. This way each frame has his own energy economy.

1 hour ago, Raikh said:

There IS a lot of value in trying to normalize it so people don't need to rely on specifc stuff like Zenurik or Energize.

Yep.

1 hour ago, Raikh said:

Efficiency is also a sensible stat

It was before energy generation outside of energy orbs became widely avalible. The fundamental problem with efficiency as a stat is becase ot turns energy cost volatile , 1 energy is worth somewhere in between 0.45 energy to 4 energy. This turns all other sources of energy harder to balances becasue they are affected by efficiency as well.

1 hour ago, Raikh said:

FLow in addition or instead as it helps capitalize on bursty energy gains more than efficiency does. Making it increased reg just pidgeonholes people into flow as you will just overcap otherwise.

I'm not trying to force people to use flow at all , I've even suggested incresing the base energy and energy per rank as compensation buff. Right now, primed flow is used as durability mod , this is how weird the systems are right now.

1 hour ago, Raikh said:

It might be valuable to rebalance the entire energy economy for the long-term but its a humongous task as it also needs a rebalance of all Warframes, which is hardly doable any time soon.

It is not a Herculean task , it requires a lot of corage and willingness to discuss how much energy is too much energy. The changes are mostly numerical , there is no need for new animations or much progaming ( no need to program new imputs or entirely new effects ) , but it does require a lot of math and playtesting ( just kidding pc players are the playtesters).

Edited by keikogi
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6 hours ago, keikogi said:

Yes but not really. Energy was originally premium ammo , and a really mean the premium part.

Yeah, it was really premium, that's not how DE want it to be now. The problem is that they've instituted energy regen rather than actually fixing the energy economy.

Abilities are not balanced to negate spam, spam currently gets the best results (depending on the frame), energy does not drop enough to support spam without energy regen, so the best results for many frames is constant energy regen, constant spam and abusing systems that force the energy economy up to a matching level for that spam.

Some frames... not so much. But a lot of frames, and a lot of players, find that they get the best results that way.

And that should not be the case. That needs to be fixed.

But regen isn't how you do that.

6 hours ago, keikogi said:

This is what most players in this game deal with and what the smashing majority of player that have ever played warframe saw. How do I know that , steam achievements. Assuming everyone that killed teralist has access to all the all players that killed a terry has access to all the efficiency, zenurik and arcanes.

Steam achievements are not indicative in the slightest of how players actually play. For example, the Eidolons do not overly benefit from most Arcanes at all, and barely even benefit energy regen either, because the Eidolons fall fastest to using a couple of abilities to boost the Operator, then one ability or another to hit the Eidolon for massive damage. Efficiency, Zenurik and most of the Arcanes are barely needed if you meta that content. At most a couple of energy pads will do the trick in those circumstances and the content has barely anything to do with the Energy economy and instead everything to do with how players can Meta build.

6 hours ago, keikogi said:

Kill enemies, get energy. Wait around get energy.

This is the issue I have; there should never be a 'wait around, get energy' system.

And neither should it be limited to 'kill enemies, get energy' either.

It should be 'play the game actively, get rewarded'. Everything we do, at some level, should contribute to being rewarded in the long run. Doing nothing should be discouraged as much as possible.

Removing almost all passive energy regen functions, and implementing more ways to gain energy by actively doing things in the game is the way to fix that economy. Weapons? Bring in more mods or functions that will either pip a small amount of energy back or drop energy orbs when used. Abilities? More combinations that result in energy orb drops or energy leech functions when used in conjecture (like Nidus 2-1 or Nezha's Chakram marked-for-death). Trade Offs? Sacrificing survivability in return for more energy, like Rage, or sacrificing some other function like a temporary inability to use a certain aspect of mobility, or making use of some particularly limited niche function like the flying kick. Even utility, where DE has made a step in the right direction with the Blood for Energy mod on the Parazon, which rewards the Mercy kill function.

All of these are active ways we play the game, whether you use weapons, abilities or try to stealth through, there always should be options - reliable mechanical functions - that reward you for using them.

I have always maintained that the thing that consistently ruins the pacing of any shooter are mechanics that encourage you to 'duck and cover' for too long. Whether that's regenerating overshields/health functions or whether that's cool down functions on your abilities. And we have seen the success of games that don't do that. One of the most satisfying shooters on the market was the remake of Doom, where if you wanted health you killed the enemy, if you wanted ammo, you chainsawed the enemy, if you explored you found secrets. Considering those were literally the only two functions of the game (kill and explore) the system was incredibly rewarding for you doing so. There was no ducking behind cover to regain your health, you had to move forward and actively engage or lead enemies.

Warframe has so many more functions than 'kill' and 'explore', it has a full modding suite, it has specific goal-oriented play such as Spy, Sabotage, Interception (the less things you kill, the less things spawn meaning the less you have to cast or fire to succeed), Defection, Capture, all of these modes where the killing is incidental or actively makes things more difficult. Even just the combat is more than just 'shoot' and 'cast', there are a multitude of ways to achieve an end goal and actually using them should be something consistently on a player's mind when they're completing missions in game.

At no point in all of these things you should and can be doing would I ever reward a player for just 'waiting for their energy to come back'. That's not how this game should work, it never should have been, and I'm genuinely confused as to why DE thought that it was the right thing to add in with the Focus system in the first place.

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8 hours ago, Colyeses said:

At this point, you're looking at a full game overhaul that would ultimately make the game less fun and not solve the problem.

A full game overhaul? Not really. There are less than a dozen energy mechanics in the game, and most of them go towards ways to restore it. That said, because of how widespread it is, it would be a large overhaul, and yes, every frame would need to be tweaked and rebalanced.

As to making the game less fun ... I mean, that's a bit hard to state with authority, as is it's opposite. Everyone has a different interpretation of what "fun" is. Do I find it fun to stand in the middle of the map and nuke every enemy unit that so much as had the desire to exist? Not particularly. Do I enjoy turning heavily armored targets into sobbing broken husks with careful and deliberate control of my abilities? Absolutely. Do I enjoy watching enemies get turned into swiss cheese by a four minute long Peacemaker assault, turning my Harrow into a useless onlooker? No. Not even a little.

And, if you can control the rate at which Mesa and Saryn gain their energy, then you can somewhat control their nuking capabilities. The idea of the energy system rework, though it's not purpose and even I don't fully agree with everything proposed, would make spamming more difficult in general, without making it impossible. It would make large-scale and nuking abilities more strenuous without directly limiting it's usage.

That's the advantage a rework to energy has over a cooldown mechanic. Yes, it might take you fifteen second to regen enough energy to cast your ultimate, guarantee kill on a high level target, only for an even tougher target to appear instantly. If you've been managing your energy efficiently, you can just cast it again. Really, this only punishes people for not maximizing the timing of their ability casts. So, yes, if you enjoy spamming your abilities with no thought to how well you're using the ability, simply because you can cast it a hundred times without pause, and regain the energy in a few second by dropping a few pizzas, then you probably will find the game less fun.

Just like how people who enjoyed a Maiming Strike playstyle might find the game less fun now that it's been reworked. Or how people who used Link-Nuke Trinity might find it less fun after they nerfed her.

As I said, I have my own issues with the proposed idea, but you can't claim that it would make the game less fun for everyone. And, again, this is an idea had by one person, that other people have tried to expand on and refine, in an attempt to make a system that does "fix the problem". Naturally, we miss things.

8 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Mesa and Saryn need a nerf to their 'Press button to wipe map', then we can rebalance abilities. Energy is really not the problem when half of all WF abilities are just flat out non-viable.

If you want to get technical, these aren't a problem with energy, but a problem in their kit, if you find them problematic at all. And yes, energy is a problem. You can't claim that something isn't a problem directly after admitting that it's a problem.

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8 минут назад, (XB1)MarakViriPlays сказал:

And, if you can control the rate at which Mesa and Saryn gain their energy, then you can somewhat control their nuking capabilities. The idea of the energy system rework, though it's not purpose and even I don't fully agree with everything proposed, would make spamming more difficult in general, without making it impossible. It would make large-scale and nuking abilities more strenuous without directly limiting it's usage.

That's the advantage a rework to energy has over a cooldown mechanic. Yes, it might take you fifteen second to regen enough energy to cast your ultimate, guarantee kill on a high level target, only for an even tougher target to appear instantly. If you've been managing your energy efficiently, you can just cast it again. Really, this only punishes people for not maximizing the timing of their ability casts. So, yes, if you enjoy spamming your abilities with no thought to how well you're using the ability, simply because you can cast it a hundred times without pause, and regain the energy in a few second by dropping a few pizzas, then you probably will find the game less fun.

Just like how people who enjoyed a Maiming Strike playstyle might find the game less fun now that it's been reworked. Or how people who used Link-Nuke Trinity might find it less fun after they nerfed her.

This requires balancing mods. We always have a choice between ability and survival. You just have to make survival and less use of abilities make sense, too. I'm not saying force players to do it like it's done on arbitrage. Namely, bring the system in such a way that the person who used the abilities wisely has an advantage in how many hits he can withstand, over the person who spam the abilities. So as in game already there is mobs, which harm abilities, this will have some sense.

Thus, if you like playing on abilities, then you will have to play on them all the time, otherwise you will just die. If you choose a more tactical game, then you may have trouble with abilities, but you have more options to use equipment.

True, the system that will act on energy regen will require nerf or removal quick thinking, otherwise the tank of people who have made themselves under the ability will be higher.

 

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1 hour ago, (XB1)MarakViriPlays said:

If you want to get technical, these aren't a problem with energy, but a problem in their kit, if you find them problematic at all. And yes, energy is a problem. You can't claim that something isn't a problem directly after admitting that it's a problem.

That's what I have been saying. It's a problem with their kits, not with energy. Adjusting the energy flow can disrupt gameplay for 40 warframes that aren't the problem, and might not even fix the 2 warframes that -are- the problem. 

Alternatively, we could look into gameplay oriented solutions for the problems to give them downtime in a way that is actually engaging for the player and befitting of the character's kit. 

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48 минут назад, Colyeses сказал:

fix the 2 warframes that -are- the problem.

Support need is clearly not 2 frames. I think there are even more than 20. Simply, here again can be lead the speech about arcanes/zenuric/rage.

And I don't think it's possible to break a system that's already broken.

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3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yeah, it was really premium, that's not how DE want it to be now. The problem is that they've instituted energy regen rather than actually fixing the energy economy

Yep , like the basis of the standard energy economy in warframe is an arcane number ( drop rate of energy orb ) furthermore energy orbs restore the same energy regardless of the frame picking them up. This becomes a problem when diferent frames have different energy requiriments. Rhino is probably so popular with new players because his defensive skill is relatively cheap ( a single cast can get a few minutes of protection in early levels ) so people can hoard energy to use the rest of the kit. My Idea fixes both of these problems.

 

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Abilities are not balanced to negate spam, spam currently gets the best results (depending on the frame), energy does not drop enough to support spam without energy regen, so the best results for many frames is constant energy regen, constant spam and abusing systems that force the energy economy up to a matching level for that spam.

Some frames... not so much. But a lot of frames, and a lot of players, find that they get the best results that way.

And that should not be the case. That needs to be fixed.

Yep.

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But regen isn't how you do that.

Yes I agree with that. Why I did I include ot in my rework?

 Ever since energy siphon was realised people have benn clinging to any form of energy regenation as the bandaid for the broken energy system at base. I included it my system because at this point I don't thing you can propose a energy rework without including energy regeneration. People will bring up the pitch forks. Like people complained more about about DE floating the idea of removing zenurik energy regeneration than gutting naramon shadow step , and shadow step was way more powerfull.

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This is the issue I have; there should never be a 'wait around, get energy' system.

And neither should it be limited to 'kill enemies, get energy' either.

It should be 'play the game actively, get rewarded'. Everything we do, at some level, should contribute to being rewarded in the long run. Doing nothing should be discouraged as much as possible.

Once again I agree with that energy should be a reward for playing "right " . Why did I just did the bare bones implementation of kill energy , ability kills no energy. Stand around energy ( note: I don't mind ability generating energy as long as said skill requires a minimum of set up or to use , for example gaus should receive energy for hitting enemies with his one not by getting hit while his 2 is active). Realisticaly speaking I think I lost most readers before they even get to the part of wielding the nerf hammer with righteous fury. So I decided to keep things short making a pitch for bare bones system that is surprisingly easy to implement ( it is just harrows turible with smaller numbers ) but gives that devs ways to adress quite a few of the fundamental issues of the current system.

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This is the issue I have; there should never be a 'wait around, get energy' system.

And neither should it be limited to 'kill enemies, get energy' either.

It should be 'play the game actively, get rewarded'. Everything we do, at some level, should contribute to being rewarded in the long run. Doing nothing should be discouraged as much as possible.

Removing almost all passive energy regen functions, and implementing more ways to gain energy by actively doing things in the game is the way to fix that economy. Weapons? Bring in more mods or functions that will either pip a small amount of energy back or drop energy orbs when used. Abilities? More combinations that result in energy orb drops or energy leech functions when used in conjecture (like Nidus 2-1 or Nezha's Chakram marked-for-death). Trade Offs? Sacrificing survivability in return for more energy, like Rage, or sacrificing some other function like a temporary inability to use a certain aspect of mobility, or making use of some particularly limited niche function like the flying kick. Even utility, where DE has made a step in the right direction with the Blood for Energy mod on the Parazon, which rewards the Mercy kill function.

All of these are active ways we play the game, whether you use weapons, abilities or try to stealth through, there always should be options - reliable mechanical functions - that reward you for using them.

I have always maintained that the thing that consistently ruins the pacing of any shooter are mechanics that encourage you to 'duck and cover' for too long. Whether that's regenerating overshields/health functions or whether that's cool down functions on your abilities. And we have seen the success of games that don't do that. One of the most satisfying shooters on the market was the remake of Doom, where if you wanted health you killed the enemy, if you wanted ammo, you chainsawed the enemy, if you explored you found secrets. Considering those were literally the only two functions of the game (kill and explore) the system was incredibly rewarding for you doing so. There was no ducking behind cover to regain your health, you had to move forward and actively engage or lead enemies.

Warframe has so many more functions than 'kill' and 'explore', it has a full modding suite, it has specific goal-oriented play such as Spy, Sabotage, Interception (the less things you kill, the less things spawn meaning the less you have to cast or fire to succeed), Defection, Capture, all of these modes where the killing is incidental or actively makes things more difficult. Even just the combat is more than just 'shoot' and 'cast', there are a multitude of ways to achieve an end goal and actually using them should be something consistently on a player's mind when they're completing missions in game.

At no point in all of these things you should and can be doing would I ever reward a player for just 'waiting for their energy to come back'. That's not how this game should work, it never should have been, and I'm genuinely confused as to why DE thought that it was the right thing to add in with the Focus system in the first place.

Once again I don't disagree with nothing said here. My only disagreement is that I think energy regeneration should exist and  should be really fast but stop when you have enought energy to cast your 2 , this way it allows players to have a fallback patterm. Reload , recharge and back to action.

Now that you mention the parazon finishers mods , am my the only ones that think , DE makes flawed systens to them fix them with "mandatory " mods ?

Seriously, what is even that point of parason kill before you get the parazon mods ? 

Is it so hard to make stuff wothwhile baseline , than create a mod that makes it better. For examole: parazon kills give 25 energy energy . Mod Energy leach: increses parazon energy regen per kill by 100%.

Another example is the ammo system in warframe. A bullet is at base with somewhere in between 17 damage to 1000 damage. Clearly one weapon will never run out of juice and the other will strugle to efficiently kill enemies. Then we have ammo mutators to fix problem DE refuses to address. Is it so hard to create a ammo conversion stat: for examole: grakata 300% ammo conversion , meaning ammo pick up gives 60 ammo instead of20.

Edit: gale kick exist , like the air slide is an attack why it does not scale with mods by default , why.

Edited by keikogi
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15 минут назад, keikogi сказал:
Another example is the ammo system in warframe. A bullet is at base with somewhere in between 17 damage to 1000 damage. Clearly one weapon will never run out of juice and the other will strugle to efficiently kill enemies. Then we have ammo mutators to fix problem DE refuses to address. Is it so hard to create a ammo conversion stat: for examole: grakata 300% ammo conversion , meaning ammo pick up gives 60 ammo instead of20.

This is what is implemented in Destiny. And that's what works. 

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I'd really like it if instead of an Energy meter for all of a Warframe's abilities, each ability had it's own individual cooldown.
Cooldowns could be adjusted based on how strong the ability is.
Abilities that require channeling could either be made Duration based (like how they changed Nezha's 1) or could have their own mini-energy bar that recharges over time, meaning you could use it when it's only 30% filled, but it woulddn't last as long as if it was 80% filled.
"Efficiency" could be rebalanced as a Cooldown-Reduction/Energy-Regeneration.

Obviously there would need to be a ton of re-balancing for this to work properly, but I still think it'd be a decent solution to ability-spamming and nuke-frames.

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I think it would be a bad idea to mess with core mechanics like this.

It's not perfect, but what game ever is? Not Destiny; not COD; not Borderlands, Overwatch, or Battlefront. The list goes on.

What is really at issue is the never ending conflict between two groups of players:

Mages vs Fighters (ability-centric vs weapon-centric)

The fighters complain about abilities being too strong. The mages complain that the weapons are too strong.
The fighter complain that abilities are used too often. The mages complain that ammo is too abundant.
The fighters complain that their defenses are too easily defeated by abilities. The mages complain that fighters have too much hp and armor.


What I like about this game is that you can be either and still be effective. SInce this game is very far from PvP-centric, how much energy or how fast it can regen is irrelevant.

At very high levels, we need to use our abilities liberally, especially if we have builds that are ability-centric.

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42 минуты назад, (PS4)ObnoxiousLunatic сказал:

Mages vs Fighters

There's nothing like that in warframe. Literally everyone can use weapons and abilities. There are frames that effectively do both, such as saryn. OK, I don't mind if there are frames with weak tactical abilities that use weapons effectively, and frames with powerful abilities that die from 1 bullet, but that's far from reality right now.

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2 hours ago, BurningPenguin6 said:

I'd really like it if instead of an Energy meter for all of a Warframe's abilities, each ability had it's own individual cooldown.
Cooldowns could be adjusted based on how strong the ability is.
Abilities that require channeling could either be made Duration based (like how they changed Nezha's 1) or could have their own mini-energy bar that recharges over time, meaning you could use it when it's only 30% filled, but it woulddn't last as long as if it was 80% filled.
"Efficiency" could be rebalanced as a Cooldown-Reduction/Energy-Regeneration.

Obviously there would need to be a ton of re-balancing for this to work properly, but I still think it'd be a decent solution to ability-spamming and nuke-frames.

There are two reason I did not propose cooldowns

Stuff like defensive buffs in warframe are meant to be up all the time (most frames cant survive without their defensive skills) , there is no point on a cooldown smaller than the buff duration.

 The other reason is, cooldown estimate the player to leave the combat.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)ObnoxiousLunatic said:

I think it would be a bad idea to mess with core mechanics like this.

It's not perfect, but what game ever is? Not Destiny; not COD; not Borderlands, Overwatch, or Battlefront. The list goes on.

What is really at issue is the never ending conflict between two groups of players:

Warframe reworked core mechanics multiple times, most times for the better.

Warframe went as far as rework its movement system. Melee was reworked 2 times. I don’t see a reason to not rework the energy system besides the players invested in this system.  

1 hour ago, (PS4)ObnoxiousLunatic said:

Mages vs Fighters (ability-centric vs weapon-centric)

The fighters complain about abilities being too strong. The mages complain that the weapons are too strong.
The fighter complain that abilities are used too often. The mages complain that ammo is too abundant.
The fighters complain that their defenses are too easily defeated by abilities. The mages complain that fighters have too much hp and armor.


What I like about this game is that you can be either and still be effective. SInce this game is very far from PvP-centric, how much energy or how fast it can regen is irrelevant.

At very high levels, we need to use our abilities liberally, especially if we have builds that are ability-centric.

I don’t really see a difference between casters and fighters in warframe. Because most warframes heavily rely on abilities.  Even Chroma (the must t gun frame I can think of) is extremely reliant on abilities.

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