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(XB1)TehChubbyDugan

Garuda, and why other frames need to take a lesson from her playbook

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First off, not a Garuda main.  Don't even really have a heavy amount of playtime on her.  But I really want to point a few things out, about things she has that several other warframes need.

First off, the most important bit:  I play with a controller.  Even if I was on PC I'd probably still play with a controller because of the way this game handles.  Just a preference, but there's a few issues with the controller support in this game.  Hydroid, Ember and Vauban off the top of my head, have abilities where you need to hold the ability button in order to get the most use out of them.  Whether or not this is an absolutely horrible design choice is not what I want to argue, but rather the mechanics of it.  See, on a controller you don't hit one button to use an ability.  You hold a shoulder button to tell the game to switch 5 other buttons into the ability buttons and then hit the one you want.  On Xbox this means holding RB, then hitting A,B,X,Y or LB.  This is completely fine, until you have to charge an ability.  With the three frames I mentioned and probably any other frame with a charge skill, you have to hold both the shoulder button AND the corresponding ability button in order to charge the ability.  You cannot easily do this while also using the thumb stick to aim, in the middle of combat.  It's atrocious design.  But there's a light at the end of the tunnel.  Someone with a functioning brain designed Garuda's controls because unlike every other frame with a charge skill, you can hold the shoulder button to access abilities, tap the desired ability button and charge by simply continuing to hold the shoulder button, allowing you to freely aim and move.

Every other charge skill in the game needs to function mechanically identical to Garuda's 4.

There is no valid reason this is not already the case.  Hydroid feels like trash to use with a controller.  Ember feels like trash to use with a controller.  Charging any ability by having to hold two buttons, removing your ability to comfortably hold the controller and aim is such horrible design I have to believe this is just an oversight.  

Secondly, the design philosophy behind her kit needs to be the standard for designing new frame's abilities.  Several newer frames have ability synergy (Khora), or team synergy (Wisp), or solid overall loadout synergy where the skills work really well with your gear (Gauss) but Garuda is a shining example of all 3.  Her skills work well together, with the team and with her own gear.  She's durable, can restore her own energy, her and her team's health, and can provide potentially massive bleed procs to everyone's damage output.  She's also got a solid nuke as part of her 3-in-1 first ability.  I play frames like her or Khora or Wisp and I weep for the early frames that have virtually no synergy with anything, and probably don't even have 4 abilities that are all worth using.  I know the community is rework hungry right now, but several of the older frames have been left behind, and it really shows.

Lastly, there's the brilliance of giving her a backup melee since it's part of her actual frame, and plays into her kit.  It's thematic, it's cool, it's fun and it needs to be on more frames.  And the idea behind it honestly needs to be spread around into other areas of the game as well.  For instance, why are we still using stat sticks for warframe abilities?  In virtually every instance of an ability using a stat stick, like Khora or Atlas's first ability, modding the weapon for the ability makes it absolutely awful to use as an actual melee weapon.  It also means that if for any reason you can't or don't want to bring a melee weapon (Sortie requirements, power leveling a non-melee weapon) the ability itself becomes completely and utterly useless.  Having cool back up melee weapons on more frames would add interest to those frames, and allowing us to mod the abilities that currently use stat sticks separately would allow those frames to utilize their abilities as well as their melee weapon in all cases.  Since I know it's coming, the only downside to this would be the players that have built out stat sticks with rivens and whatnot would be upset.  But in the same vein as everyone else talking about how certain things like some mods "weren't in line with intentions" how is using a riven for a weapon that has nothing to do with the ability itself in line or intended?  Atlas, Ash, Gara and Khora are all capable of obtaining obscene amounts of damage using stat sticks that don't utilize rivens.  The melee "changes" will honestly hurt most of those frames more than the lack of a riven, were this suggestion put into the game, and it would allow you access to the full potential of these abilities without having to have a crippled melee weapon on.

EDIT:  I like how everyone hijacked the thread to talk about how underappreciated Garuda is lol.  While true, I want my charge abilities fixed, dammit.

Edited by (XB1)TehChubbyDugan
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9 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Every other charge skill in the game needs to function mechanically identical to Garuda's 4.

Do you perhaps mean Gara? I'm not sure about controllers, but on PC, Garuda's 4 is a held ability, whereas Gara's is tap to activate, tap again to release.

Regardless, all 'hold to charge' skills need to have optional 'tap to charge'. It's incredibly frustrating that this isn't how it works already. There is absolutely nothing about charging up abilities by holding a key that fits into Warframe's gameplay, especially on controllers.

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14 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Do you perhaps mean Gara? I'm not sure about controllers, but on PC, Garuda's 4 is a held ability, whereas Gara's is tap to activate, tap again to release.

Regardless, all 'hold to charge' skills need to have optional 'tap to charge'. It's incredibly frustrating that this isn't how it works already. There is absolutely nothing about charging up abilities by holding a key that fits into Warframe's gameplay, especially on controllers.

No, I mean Garuda.  None of this applies to KB/M controls in the slightest.  Her Seeking Talons ability (with a controller) allows you to charge it simply by holding the ability "menu" button (RB) and then tapping "Y", the default 4th ability button, and charging continues as long as you're holding RB, even if you release Y.  The "held ability" is exactly what I'm talking about if you actually read what I wrote.  Hydroid's 1 and 4 (and every other chargeable frame ability) currently require you to hold two buttons to charge them if you're using a controller, RB and A/Y.  Garuda's chargeable ability lets you hold just one (RB) after tapping Y.  There is a discrepancy between the way her chargeable skill works with the game controls and every other chargeable skill works with the game controls.  Again, I know that it is different on KB/M and that it does not function the same way and you have your own set of issues.  This is not about that.

I just want the mechanics used for one frame implemented on every frame where the mechanics currently don't make sense.

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9 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

This is not about that.

But perhaps it should be? If every charged ability could be tap to charge instead, you wouldn't need to hold anything, on either platform.

Not trying to hijack, just proposing a different take on the idea. If we're going to fix the issue, we might as well go all the way.

Edited by AdunSaveMe

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Garuda’s one of those frames that just have a really good design for their abilities. Granted I wish her 1 gave DR instead of just a front facing shield. Help survivability a bit more. But she already has AOE scaling damage so can’t really complain.

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Aw yeeee Garuda love thread

Something that needs specific mentioning is that Garuda's kit synergies are both organic and flexible. All of her skills are good just by themselves, and functionally come together naturally into a coherent playstyle instead of through hardcoded interactions (lolsaryn). Bloodletting sacs HP to fuel her abilities and set up her passive, Blood Altar in turn gets back the lost HP, and Dread Mirror provides cover while charging Seeking Talons which in turn sets up huge Bleed procs off of the blood ball. None of these abilities are specifically programmed to interact with each other in any special way; they just naturally complement each other, and because of this I never feel forced to dump energy in one ability just to make another ability not suck, and am free to improvise in how to play her and adapt to the situation at hand instead of being locked into doing everything in a pre-determined order.

She's really well-balanced too. She has full frontal damage blocking, but is still vulnerable to being flanked. She has an indefinitely scaling nuke with 4+1, but it takes time to set up again after using so she can't spam it. She can natively deal universal double damage just by pressing 3 twice but requires special measures taken to prevent dying. Her heal is absurd when you're at low health and makes Oberon weep with the sheer heal/second, but its range is limited and it's less effective the less hurt you are, leaving you susceptible to large bursts of damage. She has nearly-limitless energy but must put herself at risk to use it.
Garuda has many strengths, but each comes with a caveat, so while she's incredibly strong when played effectively she rewards skill and strategy and isn't braindead.

Good frame, DE. Good frame.

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25 минут назад, MrFrog9 сказал:

All of her skills are good just by themselves

Some long forgot concept. All those forced synergies are so dumb.

Playing Garuda was pretty refreshing, feels like vanilla Wwrframe.

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2 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Every other charge skill in the game needs to function mechanically identical to Garuda's 4.

If Pablo would make every Charge Mechanic be like her 4 that is.

50 minutes ago, MrFrog9 said:

Garuda has many strengths, but each comes with a caveat, so while she's incredibly strong when played effectively she rewards skill and strategy and isn't braindead.

^^One of the reasons why she's pretty fair

Edited by GPrime96

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I've never played on consoles, but if that's the kind of wrangling one has to go through to use abilities... yikes, my condolences. Putting aside how bad it must feel to use those other charge abilities, it makes no sense to have different control schemes each time, so homogenizing all charge ability controls to Garuda's 4 gets my vote.

As for Garuda's design, I very much agree that her design is among the best in Warframe. To me, it's because her abilities, unlike those on many other frames, don't just give free power, and instead have actual gameplay baked into them: whereas most frame abilities boil down to "Press X to output power", Garuda's fall into "Press X to output power if you play properly": Dread Mirror only kills targets below a health threshold, yet the knockdown is otherwise situationally useful against strong single targets, and the shield needs to be aimed to be any good (plus the blood ball needs to be charged). Blood Altar is similarly situationally good when used against powerful enemies, but also creates this zone that balances the reward of continuous healing, versus the risk and overall tradeoff of staying within a rather small area, which the player won't be able to always stay in even during Defense missions or the like (plus the healing is based on missing health, and so works best when seriously wounded). Bloodletting is an obvious exchange of health in favor of Energy and increased damage, and Seeking Talons acts as a kill enabler, rather than a simple nuke as could have so easily been the case.

Effectively, unlike so many other frame designs, Garuda doesn't exist to make life easier for the player, she exists to challenge the player, and reward the more exciting gameplay they engage in with greater rewards. I don't think she's perfect, per se, but when you compare her to the likes of Nyx, Octavia, or even the Vauban rework, there's a clear difference in maturity of design. She unfortunately doesn't do too well in the current state of high-level play, because she struggles against ability immunity, but if every frame followed her design philosophy, and awarded power for displays of skill, rather than mere button presses, there wouldn't be a need for ability-immune enemies in the first place.

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Another thing about Garuda is how she works in a Squad. Her 2 Heals faster when a Ally have higher Health. So she can heal Inaros or a Arbitration Operative faster than, lets say, Hildryn. So even though she’s a caster, putting Vitality helps with her 2’s Healing for Garuda herself. Her 4 gives Slash for any enemy that’s not Ability/Status immune and can be guaranteed with 200%+ PS. Her Passive can work with other Frame’s Damage Buffs too and Multiplicative for her Weapons and Abilities. She’s rougher to use Solo though due to her setup time and small room for error. 

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5 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Garuda’s one of those frames that just have a really good design for their abilities. Granted I wish her 1 gave DR instead of just a front facing shield. Help survivability a bit more. But she already has AOE scaling damage so can’t really complain.

It would be better but the front facing shield does make her stand out. 

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I like Garuda theme. Her game play is the opposite of smooth. Skill 4 in particular is the biggest offender. The press and hold is an absolute no-no.

Her claws are.. useless (I have not tested after 2.6 update since I am on PS4). Any semi decent melee weapon is so much better.

Overall, beside theme, unusable frame. There are better tanky frames with better and faster damage.

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I know this can't be applied to many warframes these days but I really like how she revolves primarily around basic mechanics too. Her 4 works so well because it's just cause slash procs scale in a very specific way which she has plenty of tools to take advantage of. Her passive is a generic multiplicative damage modifier which is the only reason it does scale up he slash, nothing is made to forcibly up slash damage. Slash scales with base damage which is all abilities do unless modified by something like the saryn spore augment so naturally her blood ball would just do an absolute ton of slash damage. 

Because things that can't get slash normally now can, it can be applied in things like scaling status off other status. With a bane mod you can make a weapon deal large amounts of gas damage with the initial burst of gas dealing an added slash on top on both the gas burst and hit from a status scaling weapon. You can make operators deal a hilarious amount of damage because they naturally have really high base and only scale their damage higher through crit. Acid shells is hilarious. Turns out doing 350+45% of enemies HP as BASE damage scales bleed like mad! It even explodes enemies if the bleed it cause skills them! Only downside is the damage does have fall off over it's 15m radius and it doesn't get scaled with your passive.

All cause 1 abilities simply forces bleed procs. Amazing.

Edited by Annnoth
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4 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Overall, beside theme, unusable frame. There are better tanky frames with better and faster damage.

Not surprising, but that doesn't mean Garuda is in any way bad or "unusable".

  • One of the few frames where Energy isn't a concern with her (Bloodletting scales with total energy). Pair that with Blood Altar and Quick Thinking, and you can't die that easily.
  • Seeking Talons being charged affects the overall area affected. Damage of the actual talons themselves do not change, but changes whether you want to spread the Talons debuff to a whole group or even a few people.
  • You need to be more resourceful with Garuda than most frames: positioning, health, and damage stored in the Dread Heart. Overuse Bloodletting and you'll likely get killed more often than you think. Storing too much damage in the Dread Heart is unnecesary; you need to know the minimum damage to one-shot or deal a respectable amount of damage to the enemies at their levels.
  • Dread Heart's damage isn't always from just lunging at enemies, but absorbing damage from enemy fire. It isn't like Nidus where you need to commit to solely using the lunge just to get damage.
  • Blood Altar allowing you to shut down whatever enemy you can think of, save for bosses and other related enemies.

No doubt that what turns people away from Garuda is how much of a setup is needed as people will always look for a path of the least resistances (Inaros, Mesa).

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1 hour ago, Duality52 said:

Not surprising, but that doesn't mean Garuda is in any way bad or "unusable".

  • One of the few frames where Energy isn't a concern with her (Bloodletting scales with total energy). Pair that with Blood Altar and Quick Thinking, and you can't die that easily.
  • Seeking Talons being charged affects the overall area affected. Damage of the actual talons themselves do not change, but changes whether you want to spread the Talons debuff to a whole group or even a few people.
  • You need to be more resourceful with Garuda than most frames: positioning, health, and damage stored in the Dread Heart. Overuse Bloodletting and you'll likely get killed more often than you think. Storing too much damage in the Dread Heart is unnecesary; you need to know the minimum damage to one-shot or deal a respectable amount of damage to the enemies at their levels.
  • Dread Heart's damage isn't always from just lunging at enemies, but absorbing damage from enemy fire. It isn't like Nidus where you need to commit to solely using the lunge just to get damage.
  • Blood Altar allowing you to shut down whatever enemy you can think of, save for bosses and other related enemies.

No doubt that what turns people away from Garuda is how much of a setup is needed as people will always look for a path of the least resistances (Inaros, Mesa).

The issue is in a fast pace game play, having slow moves and heavy setup are major issues. And yes, Garuda surely has the tools for an endurance run. But why bother. I like the theme. Game play wise.. she is a downgrade from most similar builds.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

And yes, Garuda surely has the tools for an endurance run. But why bother.

 

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8 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I like Garuda theme. Her game play is the opposite of smooth. Skill 4 in particular is the biggest offender. The press and hold is an absolute no-no.

Her claws are.. useless (I have not tested after 2.6 update since I am on PS4). Any semi decent melee weapon is so much better.

Overall, beside theme, unusable frame. There are better tanky frames with better and faster damage.

Her 4 is flat out one of the best abilities in the game unless you're facing something with innate ability immunity (not like a nullifier where it's the shield that has it, but like an arbi drone.) because it provides an insane amount of extra DPS to literally anything.  In-mission testing shows that it cuts down ammo consumption for me by over half because of the bleed procs dealing so much damage.  And, unlike other charge abilities, the charge here is truly situational, as the only thing that increases is the targeting cone.  Just have a heavy you want to hit?  aim and cast.  Just a small group?  Charge until it covers the group then release.  You only have to fully charge it if you're trying to hit every single thing in front of you.  You can hide behind your shield and just spam this ability and even the absolute worst pub team will tear through enemies.  

I play her very smoothly, the only reason I don't have more playtime on her than I do is because I mix up what I use constantly these days.  

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13 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Her 4 is flat out one of the best abilities in the game unless you're facing something with innate ability immunity (not like a nullifier where it's the shield that has it, but like an arbi drone.) because it provides an insane amount of extra DPS to literally anything.  In-mission testing shows that it cuts down ammo consumption for me by over half because of the bleed procs dealing so much damage.  And, unlike other charge abilities, the charge here is truly situational, as the only thing that increases is the targeting cone.  Just have a heavy you want to hit?  aim and cast.  Just a small group?  Charge until it covers the group then release.  You only have to fully charge it if you're trying to hit every single thing in front of you.  You can hide behind your shield and just spam this ability and even the absolute worst pub team will tear through enemies.  

I play her very smoothly, the only reason I don't have more playtime on her than I do is because I mix up what I use constantly these days.  

Since enemies typically are spread out, you will have to hold the skill for a few secs. If I am playing any tanky melee frame, I would have already cleaned the room by that time. And the AOE limitation of skill 2 suffers from the same problem. WF is not designed for fighting around a small area. It does not work.. well. And of course, having your sustain being tied to hitting enemies becomes a huge problem in Arbitration. I can get around not using skill 2 (hello magus repair), thanks to 300 base armor. But if I have to avoid using skill 4, regularly, due to the cast time, might as well play a different frame. And that is the point. Too much unnecessary setup that only pays off in really high level content. And even then, other frames can do the same, or better, by pressing a "button."

DE needs to make skill 4 one press and it hits to max AOE. None of this hold few secs for AOE increase.

Edited by (PS4)thegarada

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Le 11/11/2019 à 23:28, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan a dit :

Whether or not this is an absolutely horrible design choice is not what I want to argue, but rather the mechanics of it. 

Don't worry, I discuss it for you: it's horrible.  :facepalm:

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Le 11/11/2019 à 23:28, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan a dit :

  While true, I want my charge abilities fixed, dammit.

All loading skills are a bad design in a fast-paced game like Warframe and should be eliminated.

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16 hours ago, Awazx said:

All loading skills are a bad design in a fast-paced game like Warframe and should be eliminated.

I'm not disagreeing with you.  I put the "horrible design choice" in italics because that IS how I feel, but I'm arguing for a small change in what is, rather than a big change to what should be.

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Il y a 2 heures, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan a dit :

I'm not disagreeing with you.  I put the "horrible design choice" in italics because that IS how I feel, but I'm arguing for a small change in what is, rather than a big change to what should be.

I know, I admit that I kidnapped your thread a bit, because other Warframes suffer from the same problem (for example, the recent and horrible rework of Vauban).

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