Yeehaw_Prime Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Let's face it, Covert Lethality is now pointless. +16 base combo is kinda meh, and +100% finisher damage is worthless considering daggers have the lowest damage of all melee types. If you're after finishers, now you're really just better off with a weapon that does really high damage, like Gram Prime or Paracesis or a Zaw. What are daggers actually good for now? Status builds? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oreades Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I wouldn't say completely but it is significantly diminished I think part of the intent of this latest melee changes was to lower the ceiling with regards to being able to melee crutch (spin-2-win) through endless content endlessly. And if they hadn't done something about Covert Lethatlity people would have been sitting in lvl 2k+ conent by proxy of covert Lethality slamming everything. So they would have been closing the door while leaving the widnow wide open if they hadn't addressed it. That said it could probably stand to a bit a TLC ❤️ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeehaw_Prime Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Oreades said: I wouldn't say completely but it is significantly diminished I think part of the intent of this latest melee changes was to lower the ceiling with regards to being able to melee crutch (spin-2-win) through endless content endlessly. And if they hadn't done something about Covert Lethatlity people would have been sitting in lvl 2k+ conent by proxy of covert Lethality slamming everything. So they would have been closing the door while leaving the widnow wide open if they hadn't addressed it. That said it could probably stand to a bit a TLC ❤️ I understand that, but what purpose do daggers actually serve now? Edited November 12, 2019 by Cuckold_Prime 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)GearsMatrix301 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 1 minute ago, Cuckold_Prime said: I understand that, but what purpose do daggers actually serve now? They don’t do anything beneficial now. So yeah there’s no longer a reason to ever use them. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Only the daggers and dual daggers with high slash will be worth it. I havent checked through them yet but there should be some like Dual Ether Daggers that should be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeehaw_Prime Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Oreades said: I wouldn't say completely but it is significantly diminished I think part of the intent of this latest melee changes was to lower the ceiling with regards to being able to melee crutch (spin-2-win) through endless content endlessly. Actually, now that I think about it, no. Covert Lethality was never even close to on the same level as Meme-ing Strike spin2win builds. For those, you take a weapon that has good reach such as a polearm for staff, preferrably one that already has good crit chance. Put on maiming strike, maxed primed reach, slap on a bunch of crit and attack speed mods, then you have a weapon that can clear entire rooms in seconds by just spamming slide attack. Covert Lethality was never that broken, or even really broken at all. It required a setup, that being making enemies open to finishers. Unless you were an Ash with Fatal Teleport, but even then, finishers took time. If you're aiming for speed clears, Covert Lethality was far less efficient at it than maiming strike polearm builds. You only ever used this either to make Ash less garbage or to be able to quickly take down priority targets that were hard to kill. Covert lethality really never actually needed to be nerfed in the first place. Edited November 12, 2019 by Cuckold_Prime 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oreades Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Cuckold_Prime said: Actually, now that I think about it, no. Covert Lethality was never even close to on the same level as Meme-ing Strike spin2win builds. For those, you take a weapon that has good reach such as a polearm for staff, preferrably one that already has good crit chance. Put on maiming strike, maxed primed reach, slap on a bunch of crit and attack speed mods, then you have a weapon that can clear entire rooms in seconds by just spamming slide attack. Covert Lethality was never that broken, or even really broken at all. It required a setup, that being making enemies open to finishers. Unless you were an Ash with Fatal Teleport, but even then, finishers took time. If you're aiming for speed clears, Covert Lethality was far less efficient at it than maiming strike polearm builds. You only ever used this either to make Ash less garbage or to be able to quickly take down priority targets that were hard to kill. Covert lethality really never actually needed to be nerfed in the first place. The problem child becomes Equinox. Right now Maim is totally fine as it stands because you have to work for it and Covert Lethality was never really an issue in that equation because it was more trouble than it was worth because there where easier methods of generating your Maim. Now that they have lowered the ceiling Maim + Covert Lethality becomes a legitimate consideration. What you'd end up with is one frame that could open things up to finishers and yeet them while the Equinox vacuums life bloods and blasts everything around the area with endlessly scaling maim. That would likely end up being your new super endless meta, where as now it will probably just be Octavia ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Edited November 12, 2019 by Oreades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeehaw_Prime Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Oreades said: The problem child becomes Equinox. Right now Maim is totally fine as it stands because you have to work for it and Covert Lethality was never really an issue in that equation because it was more trouble than it was worth because there where easier methods of generating your Maim. Now that they have lowered the ceiling Maim + Covert Lethality becomes a legitimate consideration. What you'd end up with is one frame that could open things up to finishers and yeet them while the Equinox vacuums life bloods and blasts everything around the area with endlessly scaling maim. That would likely end up being your new super endless meta, where as now it will probably just be Octavia ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Damage for Maim is actually only accumulated once the enemy is killed. Not like it matters though, because Covert Lethality isn't actually fast at killing enemies, it's just really good at killing them. So, as I said previously, a Maiming Strike room clearing build would still be much better for building Maim damage. Edited November 12, 2019 by Cuckold_Prime 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oreades Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Cuckold_Prime said: Damage for Maim is actually only accumulated once the enemy is killed. So, as I said previously, a Maiming Strike room clearing build would still be much better for building Maim damage. Yeah, covert Lethality kinda kills them at least last time I checked and it had no cap on what it could kill. Which means you only needed to CL a couple enemies to yeet the room with Maim, regardless of the level of the enemies. Maiming strike will only carry you so far, once it falls off it no workie and by proxy neither would Maim. Covert Lethality didn't have any fall off the only prereq regardless of the enemy level is that it needed to be open to a finisher. All an Ash would need to do is finish off a small group of enemies and your Equinox redirects that health differential and does the rest. Now unless someone comes in and says Covert Lethality never worked with Maim because it for whatever reason didn't count as a kill? Then yeah it would kinda feels super dumb like when they Nerfed multiple Ivaras being able to Prowl multiple enemies and then tried to play it off like they where doing Ivara a favor.... because now loot groups would like her or some such nonsense, totally ignoring the fact that no group outside of a group of other Ivaras is ever going to be patient enough for anyone to be allowed to Prowl anything EVER. Otherwise (it would work with Maim) and the change was likely to prevent CL + Maim from being the new go-to Meta for ultra protracted missions. Edit: Mulling over it a bit I also seem to recall a few instances where they had to specifically patch bosses that people had discovered ways to break via Covert Lethality, Kela De Thayn springs to mind and I even want to say you could one shot Tyl under the right circumstances. So it probably also had a bit of the Raids/Trials thing going on where it was enough of a perpetual thorn in the dev teams side that they just wanted it gone. That plust the Equinox interaction negating their attempt to throttle the players a bit and I really didn't stand a chance staying as it was. Edited November 13, 2019 by Oreades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)NeunDrachen Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) An insta kill regardless of lvl didnt need to be nerfed? What have you been smoking m8? All it did for daggers was make them essentially just a stat stick. You could slap the mod on anything without investing in it and itd just carry you. God forbid you need to think about how to mod daggers now. Edited November 13, 2019 by (PS4)NeunDrachen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDirtTrooper Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 4 hours ago, (PS4)NeunDrachen said: An insta kill regardless of lvl didnt need to be nerfed? What have you been smoking m8? All it did for daggers was make them essentially just a stat stick. You could slap the mod on anything without investing in it and itd just carry you. God forbid you need to think about how to mod daggers now. That would be great, if there was ever a reason to mod them at all now, which there isn't. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)NeunDrachen Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, RedDirtTrooper said: That would be great, if there was ever a reason to mod them at all now, which there isn't. And there was pre update? Lol. Covert lethality rendered modding on daggers moot since it was an insta kill regardless. Had it been a 20-50% chance of instantly killing the target like some jrpgs, the nerf wouldve been uncalled for as you couldnt depend on it killing your target thus needing you to properly setup yer build. As it was tho, there was no reason not to rework it. Plus, most high lvld missions wouldnt be in spy anyway where the covert part of the mod wouldve made sense as thats the only one where stealth would matter. Every other game mode has you facing hordes of enemies with only a couple of frames making use of the finisher mechanic. This set an unnecessary standard to what frame you could pair with daggers. Im not saying there shouldnt be a special use to daggers but considering this was a massive overhaul of all melee, them setting a benchmark for weapons before focusing on each weap individually is a good move to prevent the unbalanced mess pre update Edited November 13, 2019 by (PS4)NeunDrachen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDirtTrooper Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 9 hours ago, (PS4)NeunDrachen said: And there was pre update? Lol. Covert lethality rendered modding on daggers moot since it was an insta kill regardless. Had it been a 20-50% chance of instantly killing the target like some jrpgs, the nerf wouldve been uncalled for as you couldnt depend on it killing your target thus needing you to properly setup yer build. As it was tho, there was no reason not to rework it. Plus, most high lvld missions wouldnt be in spy anyway where the covert part of the mod wouldve made sense as thats the only one where stealth would matter. Every other game mode has you facing hordes of enemies with only a couple of frames making use of the finisher mechanic. This set an unnecessary standard to what frame you could pair with daggers. Im not saying there shouldnt be a special use to daggers but considering this was a massive overhaul of all melee, them setting a benchmark for weapons before focusing on each weap individually is a good move to prevent the unbalanced mess pre update Covert Lethality was the build for daggers, I'm not arguing there was no need to rework it, but their rework just left us with no build for daggers, which I would argue is worse than what we had before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andele3025 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 22 hours ago, Cuckold_Prime said: Let's face it, Covert Lethality is now pointless. +16 base combo is kinda meh, and +100% finisher damage is worthless considering daggers have the lowest damage of all melee types. If you're after finishers, now you're really just better off with a weapon that does really high damage, like Gram Prime or Paracesis or a Zaw. What are daggers actually good for now? Status builds? Its the 2nd worst of the only weapons that can do heavy attack spam setups (worst being whips) due to forced slash procs. And hell, while 400-600 slash procs in a 5m weird oval hitbox isnt the 900+ 360 spin2win of machete or cleaves of tonfas and scythes, its at least something. Tho CL+Finish+all the damage still 1shots starchart+fortress+kuva for ivara and the RDD. Edited November 13, 2019 by Andele3025 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Kittens- Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 On 2019-11-12 at 3:36 PM, Cuckold_Prime said: +16 base combo is kinda meh, and +100% finisher damage is worthless Go try sparring and gunblades whips and scissors before making such inane statements. Daggers are #2 behind sycthes in most improved and can handle L200 content with ease provided high crit and/or high status Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzureTerra Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 The point of using daggers is to put the point in the enemy because you like to use daggers. If you only used the weapon class because of what a mod added to it for finishers then its not class for you to keep using where as some who likes daggers and is no bothered by "omg its no the uber anymore" will happily keep using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nichivo Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 19 hours ago, (PS4)NeunDrachen said: Every other game mode has you facing hordes of enemies with only a couple of frames making use of the finisher mechanic. This set an unnecessary standard to what frame you could pair with daggers. That is actually wrong! Every frame had the ability to benefit from finishers, it was in channeling, as executing a channeled parry could stagger enemies firing at you opening them to finishers. Never ceases to amaze me the amount of people that clearly never jumped down the rabbit hole that was channeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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