Lore discussion: Grendel's Leverian entry supports that there's only 1 of each WF

[ILOHARTA]

On 2019-11-15 at 3:19 AM, TenebraeAeterna said:

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We do this with Umbra Excalibur, who was likely the first of all Excaliburs...but deemed too unstable to control because of his rage. Furthermore, when we reconstruct him...he retains his psyche, showing that genetic memory is a thing with Warframes...to a level that exceeds our current understanding of genetic memory in reality. It's very likely that the reason our basic Excaliburs aren't anything like Umbra is that they were either designed using a relative of Umbra, or they had all genetic memory completely erased...and the "Umbra" aspect has to do with his strong emotional psyche.

 resurrected by their Orokin masters. This would have likely made them extremely subservient to the Orokin...because the new composite psyche was entirely created by the Orokin with a vast ritualistic hierarchy surrounding the entire concept...placing them as the mystical defenders of their masters in a way similar to the Dax. Just as the Dax were loyal, so too were the Warframes...until free will got the better of them.

 

I like your theory, really cool. About the bolded part, that's where things get murkier: we are lead to conclude, at some point, the Warframes revolted against the Orokin, and obliterated them (a quote from a speech by Alad V during a quest mission on Neptune is pretty much "the last time you (Tenno) had a disagreement with somebody, genocide happened").
But my question is: how? The Orokin had immense wealth and power, military power, enough to rule on the known portion of the galaxy we call "starchart" (and we don't know if their empire went beyond that, as no further info are given), with billions, possibly trillions of troops, battleships and weapons. Even if the entirety of the Zariman Ten-0, which is shown in the Duviri Paradox trailer as being a colossal capital ship, rebelled... that's still a minuscule fraction of the Orokin Empire war capabilities.
Also, did the Tenno rebel truly be their own will? Is Ballas the mastermind behind a much more strategically planned upper echelons rebellion which, eventually, involved all lesser ranks with the Warframes as topping cherries of the cake?
Personally, I wouldn't mind lore consistence, it's not so bad after all.

[TenebraeAeterna]

12 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

I like your theory, really cool. About the bolded part, that's where things get murkier: we are lead to conclude, at some point, the Warframes revolted against the Orokin, and obliterated them (a quote from a speech by Alad V during a quest mission on Neptune is pretty much "the last time you (Tenno) had a disagreement with somebody, genocide happened").
But my question is: how? The Orokin had immense wealth and power, military power, enough to rule on the known portion of the galaxy we call "starchart" (and we don't know if their empire went beyond that, as no further info are given), with billions, possibly trillions of troops, battleships and weapons. Even if the entirety of the Zariman Ten-0, which is shown in the Duviri Paradox trailer as being a colossal capital ship, rebelled... that's still a minuscule fraction of the Orokin Empire war capabilities.
Also, did the Tenno rebel truly be their own will? Is Ballas the mastermind behind a much more strategically planned upper echelons rebellion which, eventually, involved all lesser ranks with the Warframes as topping cherries of the cake?
Personally, I wouldn't mind lore consistence, it's not so bad after all.

I don't believe they had the capability to control the Tenno beyond manipulation and brainwashing methods.

Keep in mind that the Sentients were their creation, one that rebelled and was winning the war. They couldn't even control the Infested, as they were far too chaotic and hostile, a trait that carried over to the Warframes themselves...until they learned that the Tenno could "possess" them and pacify them to the point that they were no longer a detriment but a powerful force against their former creation, the Sentients. For all their power, the Orokin had a nasty tendency of creating things they couldn't control...or unleashing things they couldn't control, in the case of the Infested.

I believe they used an almost cult-like methodology on the Tenno to keep them in line...

They were kiddos inhabiting the bodies of adults with memory bleed, something we see during our interactions with Umbra. This creates a very malleable mind, a shattered and confused psyche that's more than capable of being "nurtured" in the proper direction. The Tenno are the dominant facet of the composite entity that makes up the Warframe, with the host being pacified by the Tenno youth. The Tenno are kids with power that's beyond everyone's understanding who were then experiencing the memories of adults they had no relation to...whereas the Warframes themselves were individuals that had been infested, their change guided to ideals...but inflicted with the berserker-like madness of infestation. The latter is more difficult to control than the former, and combined...the Tenno are likely much more capable of being manipulated than they would have been as kids alone.

It's a perfect recipe for brainwashing. Add in the ritualistic, aristocratic, and cult-like nature of the Orokin...you have a devoted force of zealots who truly believe in their masters. Look at The Stalker, who hunts us because of that single event...only ever hesitating when he realizes the truth of our being. We don't even know why he's the way that he is...we just know he's extremely devoted to a faction of humanity that was...well, evil by most standards.

Could Ballas have set things into motion?

It's very possible... Maybe after the Sentients were defeated and he knew his vengeance wouldn't come...he opened the eyes of an influential Tenno that the rest respected, spreading the seeds of doubt that ultimately led to their revolution. It would make sense...

Maybe the stress of battle and continued bleeding of memories revealed to them that the Orokin were tyrants, opening their eyes to the atrocities they committed. I mean, it's very unlikely that most who became Warframes did by choice...and if their psyche continued to influence the Tenno through these memory bleeds, that realization may have hit one Tenno after the other...

We're all sorts of screwed up at the start of the game, memory-wise...so it's pretty apparent that stasis itself causes some issues.

I mean...it may have even been the Lotus who provoked this, subconsciously setting into motion exactly what she was sent to do from the start. I mean, the Sentients wanted to destroy the Orokin...and they ultimately got their wish. She may have been sent to destroy the Tenno themselves, but...the ultimate reason behind why the Tenno had to be destroyed was fulfilled when the Tenno turned on the Orokin. Now it's just a matter of putting the weapons to rest, for the Sentients. As Natah, she implies that the Orokin forced her into the form of Lotus, but maybe Natah worked from the depths of her subconscious to turn the Tenno against the Orokin so that she could achieve her true goal, at least in part.

That original goal of the Sentients was accomplished...but now they're worried that the Tenno will stand in their way, which they would...as the Sentients seem to believe humanity itself is too dangerous to allow continuation. It doesn't appear that it was just the Orokin they wanted to extinguish, but every last human who lives...though now they seem to be experimenting with hybridization, pushing them more towards the same goal of the Infested.

Hell, when all is said and done, The Man In The Wall could have even influenced this rebellion...as he seems to be a force behind much of what's going on, a character behind the scenes manipulating things to, what appears to be, our advantage. Why? Not really sure...

I'd like to think that he's going to be a great force of perceived evil...in the sense that his very nature is unfathomable and completely amoral in the eyes of everything humanity believes to be moral, but that he genuinely cares for the Tenno as his own "children" and wants to see them flourish. For all we know, the madness people experience within the Void may simply be a natural reaction to his presence, if he's the Void itself, but not actually intentional. What I'm hoping for is that The Man In The Wall is an entity of darkness who's presence alone causes those around him to adopt those traits...but unlike an unfathomable eldritch entity beyond any known understanding...they can't control their darker impulses. The family of the Tenno were bombarded with an invasive psyche that caused them to act upon their darker impulses.

The Man In The Wall, however, has existed long enough to control those impulses...it's his nature, what he's existed with for who knows how long. Perhaps when he saw that the Tenno weren't influenced, he actually exhibited some form of affection, pity, or something that caused him to imbue them with the power to take down their maddened parents. Maybe he truly, genuinely, cares about the Tenno...even if his personality is completely incompatible with everything humanity generally deems benevolent.

Another way to explain it would be the new series Prodigal Son.

The series is about a kid who's father ended up being a serial killer. While I haven't watched the show yet, it's heavily implied that the father genuinely loves his son and wants to bond through his son's new profession as a detective looking to track down serial killers...with his father trying to point out personality traits his son exhibits that he, himself, has as a serial killer.

I want THAT sort of relationship between the Tenno and The Man In The Wall. An entity that is absolutely amoral, but truly cares about the Tenno...which would create such a neat little dynamic. Everything he has done thus far seems to be in the effort of helping us...even though he's sadistically playful about it. So, perhaps he, somehow, orchestrated the events that ultimately led to the Tenno's freedom from the Orokin through their rebellion.

It could even be a combination of everything above, a convoluted tangle-web of plot.

I just really hope that The Man In The Wall isn't a stereotypical villain.

 

[CrazzyJ0123]

I would like to think that the individual warframes were the brainchildren of Ballas first, and they were assigned to individual tenno. As time went on, the tenno themselves founded not only the focus schools, but they would use orokin tech to create their own warframe designs. Whoever FIRST came up with Grendel was BEST friends with whoever came up with Gauss. As time went on, tenno shared their warframe blueprints, and as more and more were made, the blueprints would warp like a game of telephone. 

[ILOHARTA]

8 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

*super snip*

Keep in mind that the Sentients were their creation, one that rebelled and was winning the war. They couldn't even control the Infested, as they were far too chaotic and hostile, a trait that carried over to the Warframes themselves...until they learned that the Tenno could "possess" them and pacify them to the point that they were no longer a detriment but a powerful force against their former creation, the Sentients. For all their power, the Orokin had a nasty tendency of creating things they couldn't control...or unleashing things they couldn't control, in the case of the Infested.

*super snip*

I also like your point of view (please forgive the super snip, but boy do you write a lot) although I am of a different opinion, at least in some aspects.
To my understanding, Sentients were not "created by the Orokin", they are the results of Void effects on something that Orokin created. In simpler terms: Orokin created drones, sent them into the Void, then "something" happened, and these drones gained consciousness and sense of self (and then they decided all forms of life must be eradicated, but let's not  digress on small details).
Another important aspect I deem worth pointing out, is the confusion created by the term Tenno: from the informations scattered across all quests, it seems to denote a specific group of individuals that was on the Zariman Ten-0, and it does not applies to whomever maneuvered the Warframes until that moment. So to resume and clarify: the Tenno are the "void demons", everyone else is "just" a standard Operator.
About Natah: I think she chose to become the Lotus (memory bleeding from Margulis? just mere speculation)

Again: even assuming that there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Tenno... it's truly unthinkable to take down an entire empire of that power and proportion without a proper strategy and enough firepower to at least rival, if not outclass, the enemy.
So my 2 cents are: yes, "something" has been working behind the scenes, and that "something" has a mindblowing sharp mind can access resources beyond comprehension (read also like: network of powerful individuals that share common goals/values and/or are subordinate).

[TenebraeAeterna]

1 hour ago, ILOHARTA said:

I also like your point of view (please forgive the super snip, but boy do you write a lot) although I am of a different opinion, at least in some aspects.

No worries at all, I'm known for my walls of text on other forums...heh.

1 hour ago, ILOHARTA said:

To my understanding, Sentients were not "created by the Orokin", they are the results of Void effects on something that Orokin created. In simpler terms: Orokin created drones, sent them into the Void, then "something" happened, and these drones gained consciousness and sense of self (and then they decided all forms of life must be eradicated, but let's not  digress on small details).

From what I gathered, the Sentients were created by the Orokin...but they were never supposed to become self-aware, in the sense of becoming sapient creatures capable of rebellion. They were sent to the Tau System as terraforming machines, where they ultimately evolved through their adaptive capabilities to gain this newfound will that brought about the realization that the Orokin would bring the same devastation to the Tau System. I'm not even sure they were sent through the Void to get to the Tau System...as the Void is toxic to them and strips them of their replication capabilities, which is why Natah became incapable of reproduction when she returned to the Origin System. I suppose it may take two trips through the Void to render them incapable of reproduction...

1 hour ago, ILOHARTA said:

Another important aspect I deem worth pointing out, is the confusion created by the term Tenno: from the informations scattered across all quests, it seems to denote a specific group of individuals that was on the Zariman Ten-0, and it does not applies to whomever maneuvered the Warframes until that moment. So to resume and clarify: the Tenno are the "void demons", everyone else is "just" a standard Operator.

The Warframes were not maneuvered by anyone prior to the Tenno.

When the Warframes were first created, they were ultimately found to be uncontrollable due to the madness of the infestation process. The first time they were ever maneuvered was via the Tenno after it was discovered that their presence pacified the Warframes, as you find by reading Rhino's flavor-text in the codex. Before that, they were uncontrollable killing machines that had no hope of ever being used effectively...much like the Infestation before them, also used by the Orokin as an attempt to combat the Sentients. That's what made the Tenno so special, they were capable of making the Warframes a viable weapon. Before the Tenno, the Warframes were too unstable.

...but the lore does go out of its way to be pretty ambiguous.

2 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

About Natah: I think she chose to become the Lotus (memory bleeding from Margulis? just mere speculation)

I'm not sure if she chose to be Lotus or not...

That's what we're led to believe right up until the Ropalolyst fight, where she implies otherwise as Natah. The truth? No idea...but she implies that the Orokin made her into the Lotus and that both her and the Tenno were duped into this false reality. Maybe that's just Natah trying to drive even more of a wedge between us...but it's not exactly outside of the Orokin's MO either.

2 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

Again: even assuming that there were hundreds, maybe thousands of Tenno... it's truly unthinkable to take down an entire empire of that power and proportion without a proper strategy and enough firepower to at least rival, if not outclass, the enemy.

The Tenno had both.

They were trained to have the strategy, and they had the firepower given to them in the form of the Warframes...the Orokin's greatest weapon. We were led to believe that the Tenno were simply a small clutch of kiddos, but there's two things that allude to there being quite a bit more than we thought.

1: The trailer for the upcoming expansion that, presumably, shows the Zariman Ten-0 as being massive...

2: The flavor-text for Ember alludes to the notion that the Zariman Ten-0 wasn't a mistake, it was an experiment...

The old woman gestured for the officer to take Kaleen away. The meeting was over. When Kaleen reached the door she twisted out of his grip and shot back, 'Why would you do that? Why did you put children on a military ship?'

'We didn't. That would violate procedure.'

This implies that the Tenno were orchestrated and the entire thing was covered up...an unethical experiment that they then made out to be a mistake.

With that in mind...................how many "Zariman Ten-0s" were there? How many times has this experiment been performed? Maybe the Zariman Ten-0 we see in the trailer for the up and coming expansion isn't the Zariman Ten-0 at all, as that ship was recovered.............maybe it's another ship, maybe the Duviri are another group of children who's ship crashed in the Void. Children who grew up and learned to survive within the Void.

...but that doesn't mean other ships weren't sent and recovered, that there aren't far more Tenno than we were originally led to believe existed. What first seemed like a small clutch could actually be thousands, and it would better help explain the player-base being so large.

Typing all that out really has me wondering if the Duviri aren't actually "Tenno" from another ship...

2 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

So my 2 cents are: yes, "something" has been working behind the scenes, and that "something" has a mindblowing sharp mind can access resources beyond comprehension (read also like: network of powerful individuals that share common goals/values and/or are subordinate).

Quite possibly.

It's pretty evident that the Orokin were doing a lot of strange things, especially with Kuva...now furthered by the Queens. There does seem to be a background element manipulating things, which I assume to be The Man In The Wall. This manipulation all seems to be in our favor...even sending us to witness Lotus return to being Natah, and then guiding us to Ballas as a means of obtaining a weapon specifically to destroy Sentients. He wanted us to drink the Kuva...but we don't yet know why, and the purpose behind Kuva is left extremely ambiguous.

Some believe it's a method of forced servitude. Some believe it's a method towards ascension and immortality. Some believe it brought about the Orokin's wickedness and madness.

If I remember correctly, Teshin says it could be all of those things and more. All we know is that The Man In The Wall wanted us to consume it...but why, we don't yet understand.

[(XBOX)Sargent Sully]

@Loza03 Also in the case of the warframes, several of them are stated as having swapped helmets depending on their situation, Atlas and Gauss specifically. Grendel does of course have his alternate helmet in the Leverian, but I don't recall if it mentions him swapping it out. Course that brings up the question of how do they swap them out. Do they essentially cut and peel the helmet off to replace with another? I mean we do seen Excal Umbra repair his helmet, but do the others change theirs in a similar manner? Actually that could explain how there is a fragment of the helmet and the full form, it used void energy or technocyte to replace the missing piece.

[Troposphere6]

3 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

*snip*

With that in mind...................how many "Zariman Ten-0s" were there? How many times has this experiment been performed? Maybe the Zariman Ten-0 we see in the trailer for the up and coming expansion isn't the Zariman Ten-0 at all, as that ship was recovered.............maybe it's another ship, maybe the Duviri are another group of children who's ship crashed in the Void. Children who grew up and learned to survive within the Void.

...but that doesn't mean other ships weren't sent and recovered, that there aren't far more Tenno than we were originally led to believe existed. What first seemed like a small clutch could actually be thousands, and it would better help explain the player-base being so large.

Typing all that out really has me wondering if the Duviri aren't actually "Tenno" from another ship...

*snip*

I was wondering if perhaps the vessel in the void we see in the Duviri paradox trailer is the Zariman ten-0 which was also recovered and the Duviri are the tenno if the vessel never left the void. It's a paradox maybe us going to that place causes the ship to be recovered causing us to go to that place. 

[Tamatu]

On 2019-11-13 at 1:16 PM, Jarriaga said:

What do you all think?

I think of Warframes like weapons, or mass produced units. The Orokin can create a prototype for them, which is the original one, but in my headcannon they can just mass produce them via blueprints. Wouldn't make sense to create a unique weapon, have it be successful, and not try to replicate it.

The umbra quest kinda shows this too: We saw Excalibur umbra destroyed, yet we were able to recreate it with its memories intact, but that's not the original Umbra. I don't see why the orokin couldn't mass produce frames like factories mass produce weapons, shoes, computer parts etc.

[Fallen77]

There is only one original prime and one original non prime (developped based on the prime). All have their story, involving their demise in one way or another. Which leads to us finding the BLUEPRINTS... we're only copying them. None of the frames WE play have lived that frame's story, they're just a copy made from the OG BP.

But :

_it's my opinion

_at this point, WE are the ones making the story, so pretty much anything goes...

[Loza03]

30 minutes ago, Troposphere6 said:

I was wondering if perhaps the vessel in the void we see in the Duviri paradox trailer is the Zariman ten-0 which was also recovered and the Duviri are the tenno if the vessel never left the void. It's a paradox maybe us going to that place causes the ship to be recovered causing us to go to that place. 

It's not the same ship. That's a very interesting and important detail:

The trailer and the blueprints for the ship, as seen in the Sacrifice show different designs. The latter is corroborated by the Rell comic, where we also see the extent of the damage:

 

The Zariman was a much flatter, more angular ship without any of the Orokin trimmings or filgerees, and had a huge amount of damage to its stern. The ship we see in the Duviri Paradox trailer is clearly a far more 'primed' design, and any damage is probably in the buried lower section - the middle is more or less undamaged.

Which means that it's probably not the same ship, but a different one with an upgraded model and Orokin fineries. The question is, what is it doing in the void?

[SneakyErvin]

It all depends at what point in time the story refers to. Is it from the era of the first frames or is it from an era post prime frames?

If it is from the pre-prime era is would not be odd that they were refered to as more unique individuals, since they were at the time. Those first frames were created through living subjects, each probably being unique to the host inside that bonded with the infestation. We all know that failed at some point and focus got turned to the primes, that were more straight up machines with just a nano-biological mass at the center and tech installed to give the tenno control over them. Some stories are a bit vague though, like the one about Rhino, which implies that several have been discarded before him. Though that likely refers to the experiments between the first versions and the primes, the period where the Orokin tried to crack the code to be able to remove the actual living host.

If the story refers to post-old war it may very well also refer to the tenno versions of the frames, those based on the mass produced versions used by the tenno after the primes at the end of the orokin era. It may simply be two tenno always working together on the field as grendel and gauss. Either in a time where they think they are the frames, which explains the friendship, or in a time before the whole cryo thing happened.

I kinda bet it is about a time shortly after the fall of the orokin empire, since the frames in the story seems to have set out to hunt down remnant Orokin leaders that are holding an iron grip over the free people in their region. Something that wouldnt have happened during the orokin empire unless the story is about two rebelling OG frames, which I doubt it is. So it is very likely post old war and pre the story of the game.

 

[ILOHARTA]

4 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

*super snip*

*mumble mumble* on some stuff we agree, on some we don't, but that's fine. 
Btw, the cinematic trailer for Duviri Paradox leads us to conclude that the mega-ship we see is indeed the Zariman Ten-0 because the young man recognize himself as the young boy in the "vision" (parallel reality?) which therefore leads to the assumption that the reality we'll experience in that expansion is a "what if": what if the Tenno were never "recovered" from the Void? (but were they really recovered? or they were sent (by the Man in the Wall?)

[Troposphere6]

33 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It's not the same ship. That's a very interesting and important detail:

The trailer and the blueprints for the ship, as seen in the Sacrifice show different designs. The latter is corroborated by the Rell comic, where we also see the extent of the damage:

 

The Zariman was a much flatter, more angular ship without any of the Orokin trimmings or filgerees, and had a huge amount of damage to its stern. The ship we see in the Duviri Paradox trailer is clearly a far more 'primed' design, and any damage is probably in the buried lower section - the middle is more or less undamaged.

Which means that it's probably not the same ship, but a different one with an upgraded model and Orokin fineries. The question is, what is it doing in the void?

I don't know if we can count the artists depiction in the Rell comic as fully cannon or not as the images in the comics all contain the same colors red black and grey it could just be stylized to add to the story it was trying to tell. also the initial image of the vessel is missing a large portion of the middle  of the ship. The blue print picture could be either or neither of those ships as it has traits from both of them. We can't really say for sure till DE tells us what that ship is but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Zaraman Ten-0 neither would I be surprised if it wasn't. All I can say right now is the most obvious way the paradox could be set up is if that vessel is the ten-0 and us going to the void sets in motion the vessel being recovered.

[NightmareT12]

On 2019-11-13 at 1:16 PM, Jarriaga said:

"It came as no surprise to me, to find this tiny fragment of Gauss just outside the city. Indeed, if one thing is for certain, wherever we find evidence of Grendel, we're sure to find some trace of Gauss as well. Did they breach the city as a pair? Or did Gauss hang back intercepting the patrols, generously letting his friend Grendel eat his fill at the feast within?"

You'll have to explain to me how this supports anything properly, because a single Gauss and Grendel pair leaving a trave across the system isn't necessarily stating that only these two existed, leaving other options open such as perhaps that only those two particular Tenno piloting these particular units were more reckless.

Nothing really supports it to be fair, although it's true DE isn't necessarily the best at making their own story consistent because reasons.

[SneakyErvin]

9 minutes ago, Troposphere6 said:

I don't know if we can count the artists depiction in the Rell comic as fully cannon or not as the images in the comics all contain the same colors red black and grey it could just be stylized to add to the story it was trying to tell. also the initial image of the vessel is missing a large portion of the middle  of the ship. The blue print picture could be either or neither of those ships as it has traits from both of them. We can't really say for sure till DE tells us what that ship is but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Zaraman Ten-0 neither would I be surprised if it wasn't. All I can say right now is the most obvious way the paradox could be set up is if that vessel is the ten-0 and us going to the void sets in motion the vessel being recovered.

The image from the paradox and the blueprint one may very well be the same. There are different things that indicates that.

1. The void can corrupt the physical structure of something, heavy gunners and bombards for instance have "corrupted" helmets. This could explain the slightly different shape aswell as positioning of things.

2. The blueprint may show the ship in idle mode. Which would explain why side of the ship looks different with the bars/beams being tighter together and longer aswell as the "eye" being further out.

3. The blueprint also looks more like an early design concept and not an actual finalized blueprint.

[Troposphere6]

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The image from the paradox and the blueprint one may very well be the same. There are different things that indicates that.

1. The void can corrupt the physical structure of something, heavy gunners and bombards for instance have "corrupted" helmets. This could explain the slightly different shape aswell as positioning of things.

2. The blueprint may show the ship in idle mode. Which would explain why side of the ship looks different with the bars/beams being tighter together and longer aswell as the "eye" being further out.

3. The blueprint also looks more like an early design concept and not an actual finalized blueprint.

I don't disagree they could be the same vessel but the void doesn't corrupt the heavy gunners and bombards that is the neural sentry of the orokin towers that does that.  

[Jarriaga]

13 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

You'll have to explain to me how this supports anything properly, because a single Gauss and Grendel pair leaving a trave across the system isn't necessarily stating that only these two existed, leaving other options open such as perhaps that only those two particular Tenno piloting these particular units were more reckless.

Nothing really supports it to be fair, although it's true DE isn't necessarily the best at making their own story consistent because reasons.

It's more about the language being used.

It speaks about Grendel and Gauss rather than a Grendel and a Gauss. The language used relates to single entities.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Jarriaga

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Troposphere6 said:

I don't disagree they could be the same vessel but the void doesn't corrupt the heavy gunners and bombards that is the neural sentry of the orokin towers that does that.  

Ah I always thought it was based on the void corruption. Though the neural sentry thing does explain why the helmets look similar to Mag Prime and Frost Prime helmets, since it is orokin tech involved.

[NightmareT12]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

It's more about the language being used.

It speaks about Grendel and Gauss rather than a Grendel and a Gauss. The language used relates to single entities.

Good observation. I still do think it goes more on the way I spoke about though, especially taking into consideration other stuff.

Still wish DE would try to double check this stuff to avoid being too ambiguous though.

[TARINunit9]

On 2019-11-13 at 4:16 AM, Jarriaga said:

"It came as no surprise to me, to find this tiny fragment of Gauss just outside the city. Indeed, if one thing is for certain, wherever we find evidence of Grendel, we're sure to find some trace of Gauss as well. Did they breach the city as a pair? Or did Gauss hang back intercepting the patrols, generously letting his friend Grendel eat his fill at the feast within?"

This supports the notion that there's only one of each WF because, otherwise, the only other alternative would be that somehow every single Grendel (If more than one) would have happened to have a Gauss best friend, and all Grendel and Gauss units would have also have happened to travel together.

What do you all think? And what would be the implications for frames such as Valkyr Prime for example?

There originally WAS only one of each Warframe. Don't forget about Titania, an experimental college thesis put together by Sylvania. Don't forget about Excalibur, a political prisoner injected with Helminth so he couldn't spill Ballas's secrets.

But the word "Was" is past-tense, not present-tense. Titania died during her final defense of the Silver Grove. Excalibur died at the start of the Sacrifice quest, These weren't gameplay deaths, these were final deaths, with no access to Lotus's revive system

And remember one last thing: what you do to Excalibur in the Sacrifice quest: you reincarnate him in your foundry

Warframes are clones. There was originally one Titania, and then we cloned her. There was originally one Excalibur, and then we cloned him. There was originally one Grendel and Gauss, and then we cloned them

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, Troposphere6 said:

I don't know if we can count the artists depiction in the Rell comic as fully cannon or not as the images in the comics all contain the same colors red black and grey it could just be stylized to add to the story it was trying to tell. also the initial image of the vessel is missing a large portion of the middle  of the ship. The blue print picture could be either or neither of those ships as it has traits from both of them. We can't really say for sure till DE tells us what that ship is but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Zaraman Ten-0 neither would I be surprised if it wasn't. All I can say right now is the most obvious way the paradox could be set up is if that vessel is the ten-0 and us going to the void sets in motion the vessel being recovered.

It's sufficiently similar the Sacrifice's vitruvian depiction that we can determine it's the same ship. There's a few differences (and the Rell comic ship appears to be jammed into some existential crack, obscuring the very front) but it's similar enough that we can say they're the same design

The Sacrifice is a very recent, in-game depiction of the vessel that matches that design seen in the Rell comic. The Duviri Paradox ship doesn't match up.

[Troposphere6]

52 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It's sufficiently similar the Sacrifice's vitruvian depiction that we can determine it's the same ship. There's a few differences (and the Rell comic ship appears to be jammed into some existential crack, obscuring the very front) but it's similar enough that we can say they're the same design

The Sacrifice is a very recent, in-game depiction of the vessel that matches that design seen in the Rell comic. The Duviri Paradox ship doesn't match up.

I wasn't saying that the ship in rells comic wasn't the ten-0 I was saying it might not be a canon depiction of that ship. The vituvian vessel could be either one of the two. Another thought on the rell comic the inside of the vessel didn't look orokin and it might be better to consider it concept art rather than the finished product as the comic itself is about adding visuals to rells story rather than the ten-0 as a vessel

[Loza03]

Just now, Troposphere6 said:

I wasn't saying that the ship in rells comic wasn't the ten-0 I was saying it might not be a canon depiction of that ship. The vituvian vessel could be either one of the two. Another thought on the rell comic the inside of the vessel didn't look orokin and it might be better to consider it concept art rather than the finished product as the comic itself is about adding visuals to rells story rather than the ten-0 as a vessel

This would make sense if the Vitruvian didn't depict the ship. But it does. That is the canon design of the ship, as far as we can tell, and since the Rell comic also uses that design, the design seen in that comic is canon.

[Troposphere6]

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

This would make sense if the Vitruvian didn't depict the ship. But it does. That is the canon design of the ship, as far as we can tell, and since the Rell comic also uses that design, the design seen in that comic is canon.

I think the immage in the vitruvian is more of a halfway house between the two as it's only missing the ring at the front of the vessel and the two gilded lines in the middle where as the rell vessel has a flat front the vitruvian vessel doesn't have and is missing the round bit in the middle as well as a portion of the back.

[Loza03]

16 minutes ago, Troposphere6 said:

I think the immage in the vitruvian is more of a halfway house between the two as it's only missing the ring at the front of the vessel and the two gilded lines in the middle where as the rell vessel has a flat front the vitruvian vessel doesn't have and is missing the round bit in the middle as well as a portion of the back.

That's not true. The ring isn't just added - it replaces the indentation that the one in the Vitruvian has. The Vitruvian design also features positional fins more like the landing craft whereas the Duviri ship seems to have thrusters where the base of the fins would be, and the Vitruvian design features corners as opposed to a rounded shape.