Lore discussion: Grendel's Leverian entry supports that there's only 1 of each WF

[Troposphere6]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

That's not true. The ring isn't just added - it replaces the indentation that the one in the Vitruvian has. The Vitruvian design also features positional fins more like the landing craft whereas the Duviri ship seems to have thrusters where the base of the fins would be, and the Vitruvian design features corners as opposed to a rounded shape.

The rell vessel doesn't have the indentation the duviri vessel does have the indentation. What I am saying is they are all similar enough that if I was told they represented the same vessel it wouldn't surprise me. The difference between the vitruvian vessel and the Duviri vessel seem to be simply one has an over all more orokin look to it. We will just have to wait and see what it actually is.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, Troposphere6 said:

The rell vessel doesn't have the indentation the duviri vessel does have the indentation. What I am saying is they are all similar enough that if I was told they represented the same vessel it wouldn't surprise me. The difference between the vitruvian vessel and the Duviri vessel seem to be simply one has an over all more orokin look to it. We will just have to wait and see what it actually is.

I thought that too, but again - the very front is sticking into that weird existential crack thing. You can see how the edge meets and matches the edge of... space or something.

That means the indentation is on the other side, and out of view.

[Troposphere6]

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I thought that too, but again - the very front is sticking into that weird existential crack thing. You can see how the edge meets and matches the edge of... space or something.

That means the indentation is on the other side, and out of view.

Oh your right I didn't see it at first but the front is hidden so who knows what it looks like. I think the idea is that all three are representations of the same vessel any how just because at the moment lore wise we only hear about one such vessel and pulling another out of thin air is weak story telling but I could always be wrong

[Loza03]

25 minutes ago, Troposphere6 said:

Oh your right I didn't see it at first but the front is hidden so who knows what it looks like. I think the idea is that all three are representations of the same vessel any how just because at the moment lore wise we only hear about one such vessel and pulling another out of thin air is weak story telling but I could always be wrong

I have two theories about what it could be.

1: Alternate timeline 10-0. Basically, it's a 10-0 that was a bit sturdier owing to it's better tech, so when the void-jump accident happened, it wasn't as severely damaged. As a result, the Tenno were able to get it working, or it just didn't drift the same way, and it winds up in the Duviri plane, which connects to our universe via wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff.

2: Escape craft. This ship could also be an Orokin escape vessel, designed after the 10-0 (since it's the only ship to have successfully 'navigated' the void without a rail) but upgraded. This might explain where the Duviri have come from - they're the people who escaped aboard it.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

On 2019-11-14 at 9:19 PM, TenebraeAeterna said:

We do this with Umbra Excalibur, who was likely the first of all Excaliburs...but deemed too unstable to control because of his rage. Furthermore, when we reconstruct him...he retains his psyche, showing that genetic memory is a thing with Warframes...to a level that exceeds our current understanding of genetic memory in reality. It's very likely that the reason our basic Excaliburs aren't anything like Umbra is that they were either designed using a relative of Umbra, or they had all genetic memory completely erased...and the "Umbra" aspect has to do with his strong emotional psyche.

Umbra wasn't the first of all Exaliburs, nothing stated that. He wasn't deemed to unstable, Ballas wanted him to be unstable. You're correct on genetic memory, I think of it like that too. But the reason why Umbra has his sentience unlike other warframes is because Ballas left him with the memory of his final moments before turning into a warframe. This was all explained/shown in the sacrifice quest. 

[TenebraeAeterna]

10 hours ago, (XB1)Sargent Sully said:

@Loza03 Also in the case of the warframes, several of them are stated as having swapped helmets depending on their situation, Atlas and Gauss specifically. Grendel does of course have his alternate helmet in the Leverian, but I don't recall if it mentions him swapping it out. Course that brings up the question of how do they swap them out. Do they essentially cut and peel the helmet off to replace with another? I mean we do seen Excal Umbra repair his helmet, but do the others change theirs in a similar manner? Actually that could explain how there is a fragment of the helmet and the full form, it used void energy or technocyte to replace the missing piece.

It's possible that, canonically, the "swapping" of helmets is less direct than implied...and more of a physical morph to a different configuration...like how some species of animal change from male to female, acquiring physical traits that match the sex they change into. It could be more of a "morphing" than a "swapping." That sounds far less gruesome than literally swapping heads, seeing as how that implies....well...literal heads being removed and grafted onto the body. Which, hey...that could be neat too.

8 hours ago, Troposphere6 said:

I was wondering if perhaps the vessel in the void we see in the Duviri paradox trailer is the Zariman ten-0 which was also recovered and the Duviri are the tenno if the vessel never left the void. It's a paradox maybe us going to that place causes the ship to be recovered causing us to go to that place. 

There's so many possibilities...

That definitely could be the case, as it would explain the "paradox" portion...as you suggest. It could even be that we use the Zariman ten-0 within the future to travel into the void, crashing...but time doesn't work quite right within the Void, leading our younger selves to somehow access the Void and discover their future selves there. ...the paradox being that if they encountered their older selves in the past, then their future selves shouldn't actually fall to the fate that has transpired, but for whatever the reason...the Void makes that possible.

It could also be possible that the Duviri are the remnants of the Orokin who fled upon our betrayal...as there's Orokin machines present in the trailer with the leviathan and horse, alongside the rider who's listed as being a Duviri Dax. The human within the trailer was wearing a Duviri mask though...so it's really a bunch of questions at this point.

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The Zariman was a much flatter, more angular ship without any of the Orokin trimmings or filgerees, and had a huge amount of damage to its stern. The ship we see in the Duviri Paradox trailer is clearly a far more 'primed' design, and any damage is probably in the buried lower section - the middle is more or less undamaged.

Which means that it's probably not the same ship, but a different one with an upgraded model and Orokin fineries. The question is, what is it doing in the void?

That's an artistic representation.

The damage is a good point, but the more simplistic design is likely just a removal of all the bells and whistles for the sake of display purposes. Still, the lack of damage is a good point...which may support the implications within Ember's codex of this all being planned and there, potentially, being more ships with children that were sent into the Void.

7 hours ago, Troposphere6 said:

I don't know if we can count the artists depiction in the Rell comic as fully cannon or not as the images in the comics all contain the same colors red black and grey it could just be stylized to add to the story it was trying to tell. also the initial image of the vessel is missing a large portion of the middle  of the ship. The blue print picture could be either or neither of those ships as it has traits from both of them. We can't really say for sure till DE tells us what that ship is but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Zaraman Ten-0 neither would I be surprised if it wasn't. All I can say right now is the most obvious way the paradox could be set up is if that vessel is the ten-0 and us going to the void sets in motion the vessel being recovered.

Pretty much my thoughts as well, though I will agree that the damage is a good point.

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

This would make sense if the Vitruvian didn't depict the ship. But it does. That is the canon design of the ship, as far as we can tell, and since the Rell comic also uses that design, the design seen in that comic is canon.

 

A blueprint won't show you what a house looks like, it'll only give you the general layout without the external shell. Aside from that, the only real difference I see between the ship in the trailer and the blueprint is that the one in the trailer is at a slight different angle.

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

That's not true. The ring isn't just added - it replaces the indentation that the one in the Vitruvian has. The Vitruvian design also features positional fins more like the landing craft whereas the Duviri ship seems to have thrusters where the base of the fins would be, and the Vitruvian design features corners as opposed to a rounded shape.

It actually does look like the ship has the ring, it's just inset rather than extended. We know that the Orokin love their moving parts and floating metal pieces...so I assume that the metal ring comes out of that little area at the front. Could be wrong...but we know they loved their fancy flowing and floating metal-designs.

I will have to double post because I have another page and it doesn't always save what I've written when I click to the next page. You all have my deepest apologies, but I rant a lot and would rather not have to type all that out again...and copy/paste rarely works as well as it should.

[TenebraeAeterna]

23 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

Umbra wasn't the first of all Exaliburs, nothing stated that. He wasn't deemed to unstable, Ballas wanted him to be unstable. You're correct on genetic memory, I think of it like that too. But the reason why Umbra has his sentience unlike other warframes is because Ballas left him with the memory of his final moments before turning into a warframe. This was all explained/shown in the sacrifice quest. 

It's not directly stated that Umbra is the first of all Exaliburs, no...that's just speculation.

The fact that he was unstable, however, is simply a process of the transformation. If you look at the codex entry for Rhino, you'll see that the Warframes only became controllable after they discovered that the Tenno could pacify them...otherwise they would just mindlessly murder anyone around. I'm pretty sure they say it elsewhere too...I just can't remember where. Ballas seemed to be an exception, but it's never really specified as to why Umbra can't kill him...just that he can't. It's possible that this happened AFTER they discovered the Tenno could pacify them and then Ballas, somehow, used this to his advantage...as I believe the Rhino codex entry expresses that when Rhino was calmed, the Tenno weren't even around...the survivors were just standing at the entrance way of where the Tenno were previously held.

If that's the case, an area where the Tenno have resided is enough to calm their madness...but not guide them into the direction the Orokin wanted, as combative soldiers.

That required the Tenno's direct control.

Ballas wanted him to kill his son, but he didn't need to make Umbra unique for that...because the Warframes lash out naturally without the guidance of an operator. It's possible that he tweaked Umbra to be more self-aware as a method of torture...but that would imply that they had some sort of control over how badly the madness affected the Warframes, but the fact that they needed the Tenno implies that they didn't have that capability and Ballas was simply reveling in the natural process of transformation and the expected outcome.

...since that's the outcome exhibited by all Warframes, like Rhino ripping through everyone up until he neared the room where the Tenno were held.

Edited November 20, 2019 by TenebraeAeterna

[Loza03]

6 minutes ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

That's an artistic representation.

The damage is a good point, but the more simplistic design is likely just a removal of all the bells and whistles for the sake of display purposes. Still, the lack of damage is a good point...which may support the implications within Ember's codex of this all being planned and there, potentially, being more ships with children that were sent into the Void.

 

6 minutes ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

It actually does look like the ship has the ring, it's just inset rather than extended. We know that the Orokin love their moving parts and floating metal pieces...so I assume that the metal ring comes out of that little area at the front. Could be wrong...but we know they loved their fancy flowing and floating metal-designs.

As I point out, there's a number of other smaller differences that can't be put up to hidden or obscured parts for display purposes. The Duviri ship has thrusters in the same place the 10-0 has fins. The Duviri ship has rounded edges on the bow, the 10-0 has more geometric corners. The indentation the ring goes in for the Duviri ship appears smaller than the one on the 10-0 - either that or the ring is larger. The 10-0's engine (or the part torn off in the rell comic), according to the Vitruvian part, has segmented lights whilst the Duviri has it smooth, and its smaller. Several of the bells and whistles actually replace parts of the 10-0's design, such as the fins either side of the indented area, instead of being added to it.

The Duviri ship is not just the 10-0 with extra Orokin detailing, it's as different as a prime is to a normal weapon. Clearly the same kind of vessel, but a different model.

[TenebraeAeterna]

10 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

 

As I point out, there's a number of other smaller differences that can't be put up to hidden or obscured parts for display purposes. The Duviri ship has thrusters in the same place the 10-0 has fins. The Duviri ship has rounded edges on the bow, the 10-0 has more geometric corners. The indentation the ring goes in for the Duviri ship appears smaller than the one on the 10-0 - either that or the ring is larger. The 10-0's engine (or the part torn off in the rell comic), according to the Vitruvian part, has segmented lights whilst the Duviri has it smooth, and its smaller. Several of the bells and whistles actually replace parts of the 10-0's design, such as the fins either side of the indented area, instead of being added to it.

The Duviri ship is not just the 10-0 with extra Orokin detailing, it's as different as a prime is to a normal weapon. Clearly the same kind of vessel, but a different model.

I understand that, and like I said...blueprints rarely end up giving you a perfect representation of the finished product. It's close enough that it could be the same ship, which is why I think that the damage is a much better point...as that ship doesn't have nearly as much as it should...were it the Zaraman Ten-0.

Well, the iteration that we know of...again, paradox is in the name so who knows what shenanigans they're going to be throwing at us.

Time stories are almost always bad...so I'm a little worried, if that's the case.

[Loza03]

Just now, TenebraeAeterna said:

I understand that, and like I said...blueprints rarely end up giving you a perfect representation of the finished product. It's close enough that it could be the same ship, which is why I think that the damage is a much better point...as that ship doesn't have nearly as much as it should...were it the Zaraman Ten-0.

Well, the iteration that we know of...again, paradox is in the name so who knows what shenanigans they're going to be throwing at us.

Time stories are almost always bad...so I'm a little worried, if that's the case.

Personally, I think the most likely outcome is Orokin, fleeing from the Tenno uprising or the Sentients into the one place the latter can't go and the former would never go due to trauma - deep into the void, using a ship modeled and upgraded from the one that had any success travelling it.

This would explain what the Duviri are, why there's Dax here - they're the lost remnants of the Orokin. Maybe they took inorganic forms to try and dodge what they thought were the Deep-pressure bends that made the Tenno into, well, Tenno, or the madness that consumed the adults.

[TenebraeAeterna]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Personally, I think the most likely outcome is Orokin, fleeing from the Tenno uprising or the Sentients into the one place the latter can't go and the former would never go due to trauma - deep into the void, using a ship modeled and upgraded from the one that had any success travelling it.

This would explain what the Duviri are, why there's Dax here - they're the lost remnants of the Orokin. Maybe they took inorganic forms to try and dodge what they thought were the Deep-pressure bends that made the Tenno into, well, Tenno, or the madness that consumed the adults.

That seems like the most logical conclusion.

...granted, it does kind of leave the question of what the "Paradox" might be. It would be pretty neat to have the Orokin still alive and kicking, just in hiding...which might explain why The Corrupted seem to invade the system whenever there's void-related shenanigans going on.

[ILOHARTA]

10 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

Ballas wanted him to kill his son, but he didn't need to make Umbra unique for that...because the Warframes lash out naturally without the guidance of an operator. It's possible that he tweaked Umbra to be more self-aware as a method of torture...but that would imply that they had some sort of control over how badly the madness affected the Warframes, but the fact that they needed the Tenno implies that they didn't have that capability and Ballas was simply reveling in the natural process of transformation and the expected outcome.

we are also assuming (wrongly, I would add) that Ballas, at that point of the events, still has a rational mind. I think that after the Orokin get rid of Margulis, he slowly but steadily descend into madness, devoured by both hatred and regret for his own kind. He is an interesting character, and despite we are shown his better side with Margulis, we also know that he never -even once- showed any compassion for what happened to the Tenno. In his eyes, we are void demons and nothing else.

Now a couple of random thoughts, in no particular order:
It's amusing how Sentients, Orokin and whatnot think Tenno can actually be 'killed'. They are way older than they look, they have no more a physical body, they are literally ascended beings with no attachments to the conventional world. Could it be that Natah true reason for not following the final order was simply because she realized it wasn't possible? After all, an attempt to 'kill' the Tenno wouldn't go unnoticed: would it be worth enraging a nigh omnipotent group, that would then focus their effort into eradicating Sentients beyond the Void, after said faction already reached what basically was their goal all along (i.e. destroying the Orokin)? Accounting for this only from a military strategy point of view, what she did was the best move (maxed out result with minimal effort). Again, this is not factoring in external elements such as the Man in the Wall. It is also amusing to read all those comments on this very forum whining about how overpowered the warframes are: I guess they didn't make the effort to follow the story, and thus they do not realize that the warframes are cages to contain much more fearsome beings. Ah, blessed ignorance.
Finally, it appears we (players) have no real friends: everybody in the game just used us in a way or another for their own agenda. Could the Man in the Wall be our only true friend?
 

[TARINunit9]

23 hours ago, Loza03 said:

It's sufficiently similar the Sacrifice's vitruvian depiction that we can determine it's the same ship. There's a few differences (and the Rell comic ship appears to be jammed into some existential crack, obscuring the very front) but it's similar enough that we can say they're the same design

I just double-checked both the comic and the video, and noticed something hilarious:

The ship in the Duvuri Paradox video is Zariman Prime

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

18 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

The fact that he was unstable, however, is simply a process of the transformation. If you look at the codex entry for Rhino, you'll see that the Warframes only became controllable after they discovered that the Tenno could pacify them...otherwise they would just mindlessly murder anyone around.

Yes you're right but from that codex entry it sounds more like the prototype version of Rhino considering it had eyes, a mouth, was eating the bodies it smashed and referred to as a beast. From then on it's not a stretch to say that they removed the sentience from warframes as they refined the design as shown in the second dream where it just drops down like a puppet when the operator is out.  Although it also showed that warframes has some sort of minimal movement without the operator but not enough to make it combat ready. 

18 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

Ballas seemed to be an exception, but it's never really specified as to why Umbra can't kill him...just that he can't. It's possible that this happened AFTER they discovered the Tenno could pacify them and then Ballas, somehow, used this to his advantage...as I believe the Rhino codex entry expresses that when Rhino was calmed, the Tenno weren't even around...the survivors were just standing at the entrance way of where the Tenno were previously held.

If that's the case, an area where the Tenno have resided is enough to calm their madness...but not guide them into the direction the Orokin wanted, as combative soldiers.

 It's highly hinted that a tenno went into the mind of the Rhino prototype because it stood inches away from Davis looking at its hands. If it was just calmed down, I don't think it would've been looking at it's hands that is more than likely stained with gore. 

 

18 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

Ballas wanted him to kill his son, but he didn't need to make Umbra unique for that...because the Warframes lash out naturally without the guidance of an operator. It's possible that he tweaked Umbra to be more self-aware as a method of torture...but that would imply that they had some sort of control over how badly the madness affected the Warframes, but the fact that they needed the Tenno implies that they didn't have that capability and Ballas was simply reveling in the natural process of transformation and the expected outcome.

...since that's the outcome exhibited by all Warframes, like Rhino ripping through everyone up until he neared the room where the Tenno were held.

But he did made Umbra unique for that. infected him with the helminth virus and fitted with a unique transference bolt that made him subservient and then forced him to kill his own son and have that be the one burning memory as a warframe. I doubt at this point that Warframes would lash out as they are more than likely refined at this point and not a prototype like the Rhino from the prime codex entry. Umbra being an exception because Ballas wanted to torture him. 

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

7 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

It's amusing how Sentients, Orokin and whatnot think Tenno can actually be 'killed'. They are way older than they look, they have no more a physical body, they are literally ascended beings with no attachments to the conventional world.

But tenno do have a physical body. They can be hurt through the warframe as shown by some transmissions where they exclaimed that 'whatever' hurts, more than likely a feedback loop from the transference. I'm sure everyone knows that they are old but they're not unkillable, just extremely hard to kill because they can just nope tf out of the warframe and back to the orbiter. 

[ILOHARTA]

1 hour ago, ShadowExodus said:

But tenno do have a physical body.

imho they have a physical appearance, bust that's just because it's imbued in their memories. It's just a speculation, but I think their body is looooong gone, and they are just ghosts made of pure Void who kept their ancient resemblance drenched in memories shared with the Warframe they possessed for so long.

[TenebraeAeterna]

19 hours ago, ChaosSabre said:

Pretty sure Onkko implies there is some kind of multiple universe timeline thing going on.

Duviri Paradox will go into this kind of stuff most likely.

He implies that he's experienced multiple timelines...but hasn't said anything that would allude to us doing the same. What he's said thus far actually alludes to the likelihood that we won't be meddling with time, as he says something about this timeline being the only one where things turn out good. Granted, maybe that's a result of us meddling with time...so it's still possible, but when you mess with time...it's usually highly unpredictable and never goes right, if you follow the notion of the butterfly effect.

...I really hate stories dealing with time travel unless they end horribly tragic or bittersweet.

17 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

we are also assuming (wrongly, I would add) that Ballas, at that point of the events, still has a rational mind. I think that after the Orokin get rid of Margulis, he slowly but steadily descend into madness, devoured by both hatred and regret for his own kind. He is an interesting character, and despite we are shown his better side with Margulis, we also know that he never -even once- showed any compassion for what happened to the Tenno. In his eyes, we are void demons and nothing else.

Yes.

I mean, I wasn't really discounting that fact...and I wouldn't disagree that his motivations behind the betrayal of the Orokin are entirely due to their execution of Margulis...he says as much. He was, however, a horrible figure prior to that. As you state, he had absolutely no qualms with the Tenno being executed and tried to encourage Margulis to "see reason."

It's actually odd that he ultimately gives us the Paracesis...but that seems to only be after he comes to the realization that Lotus isn't a replacement for Margulis and that Natah is nothing like her.

He is a weird character...and still not dead.

18 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

It's amusing how Sentients, Orokin and whatnot think Tenno can actually be 'killed'. They are way older than they look, they have no more a physical body, they are literally ascended beings with no attachments to the conventional world. Could it be that Natah true reason for not following the final order was simply because she realized it wasn't possible?

It's heavily implied that Tenno can die, and the Lotus believes that they can...which is why she was so frantic when the Stalker was given War to kill them. With that said, however, the only time we do die is during operator only story-missions and, instead of a simple loading screen, we're given an image of the Tenno floating unconscious within the void. This could purely be a visual to occupy our eyes during the loading process...or it could be that when the Tenno are killed...they are simply sent to the void until they wake once more. We just don't know...and it's likely that we'll never know because to make it canon that the Tenno are immortal is to remove the threat in the lore of their potential death.

It's really difficult to add suspense into a story when your protagonists can't die...though some narratives pull it off. I remember an Anime with an arrogant little immortal child who scoffed at someone threatening to kill him, before the individual said that his immortality didn't spare him pain, and he could spend an eternity finding new ways to make him experience agony, new ways to break and shatter his mind. He got pretty sadistic with his speech, and it definitely rattled the immortal.

Even so...it's really hard to form a compelling story when your protagonist is immortal.

...doesn't mean the Tenno aren't though, and some of us did drink the Kuva.

18 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

After all, an attempt to 'kill' the Tenno wouldn't go unnoticed: would it be worth enraging a nigh omnipotent group, that would then focus their effort into eradicating Sentients beyond the Void, after said faction already reached what basically was their goal all along (i.e. destroying the Orokin)? Accounting for this only from a military strategy point of view, what she did was the best move (maxed out result with minimal effort).

To that, I agree... The Tenno turning on the Orokin was the easiest way to defeat them, as they were ultimately placed into the exact position to best execute them. Still...it does appear that Lotus/Natah believes the Tenno mortal. Whether or not that's true...we don't know, but even the Tenno themselves believe they're mortal.

It's possible that The Man In The Wall being pleased with those of us who drank the Kuva is because we are actually rendering ourselves immortal and previously weren't. ...or perhaps, as I suggested above, the loading screen is an indication that when the Tenno die, they simply manifest in the Void floating unconsciousness until they wake up.

We just don't have enough information...and the Mirage storyline does nothing to help that situation for reasons already expressed. 😛

18 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

Again, this is not factoring in external elements such as the Man in the Wall. It is also amusing to read all those comments on this very forum whining about how overpowered the warframes are: I guess they didn't make the effort to follow the story, and thus they do not realize that the warframes are cages to contain much more fearsome beings. Ah, blessed ignorance.

There's also people waiting to see why the Tenno are so overly powerful...as what we're presented with thus far isn't really all that powerful.

Rell is though... I think Rell gave us the best example of why the Tenno were placed into stasis, as his madness ultimately brought us a little insight into just how powerful the Tenno can become with energy manifestations and the spreading of madness to others...essentially creating an entire war from a distance and projecting themselves into said war, even in more than one form.

We can't do that yet though...even though we apparently undid what Margulis had done. The Tenno we get to play are still...incredibly weak, save for their invulnerability.

18 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

Finally, it appears we (players) have no real friends: everybody in the game just used us in a way or another for their own agenda. Could the Man in the Wall be our only true friend?

This actually annoys me...

What do Tenno do in their spare time? The Orbiter is pretty...well, dull. I suppose Dojo's are supposed to represent Tenno having friends, but it would be nice to see more characters on the Orbiter itself. I mean, hell, even Umbra walking around when not in use would make some sense...having finally gained his vengeance, now able to peacefully examine the world around him but sticking with the Tenno out of respect.

I don't know...it is kind of weird though. I kind of feel as though a central hub for the Tenno is needed, a sort of Tenno city. I don't know, it does feel like the Tenno are very alienated...despite everyone being very cordial to them.

11 hours ago, ShadowExodus said:

Yes you're right but from that codex entry it sounds more like the prototype version of Rhino considering it had eyes, a mouth, was eating the bodies it smashed and referred to as a beast. From then on it's not a stretch to say that they removed the sentience from warframes as they refined the design as shown in the second dream where it just drops down like a puppet when the operator is out.  Although it also showed that warframes has some sort of minimal movement without the operator but not enough to make it combat ready. 

Possibly...or it could have simply been that the transformation wasn't yet complete... Err, well...I guess all the first Warframes would be considered a prototype regardless, but I think you get what I mean, no?

Regardless, I think the cloning process ultimately made those psyches dormant. Each new generation of Warframes was more a suit than the last, with the originals possessing the most active of psyches and every generation after possessing less.

This might explain why our Umbra choked us out and went on a rampage, but after everything was said and done...is now little more than a suit unless we need it to function independently in battle. You jump out of him on your Orbiter and there's no movement...no matter how long you stare at him. Sadly...

This would also further explain why Lotus was so distraught over Mirage being destroyed. It may have been the first Mirage, and while the Tenno was perfectly fine in their stasis pod...Mirage herself, the human who was ultimately transformed into the Mirage Warframe, died. One half of that union was destroyed...and the next iteration, while still possessing the same personality, wasn't going to have the original piece to that puzzle.

11 hours ago, ShadowExodus said:

It's highly hinted that a tenno went into the mind of the Rhino prototype because it stood inches away from Davis looking at its hands. If it was just calmed down, I don't think it would've been looking at it's hands that is more than likely stained with gore. 

I'd have to log in again, but I'm pretty sure that entry states that it was the room that held the Tenno, past tense...they weren't there anymore. If I'm remembering correctly, they had no knowledge of those events, it was just their residual presence that pacified him. If we're to assume that the psyche of the individual is active in those original Warframes, then Rhino looking at his gore-stained hands makes a lot of sense when his berserk rage suddenly gives way to lucidity.

"What have I done? What have I become...?"

Very possible thoughts to have after you slaughter countless people in a fit of berserker rage and suddenly find yourself lucid.

11 hours ago, ShadowExodus said:

But he did made Umbra unique for that. infected him with the helminth virus and fitted with a unique transference bolt that made him subservient and then forced him to kill his own son and have that be the one burning memory as a warframe. I doubt at this point that Warframes would lash out as they are more than likely refined at this point and not a prototype like the Rhino from the prime codex entry. Umbra being an exception because Ballas wanted to torture him. 

All the Warframes are infected with the helminth virus; that's the entire process of becoming a Warframe and why they're so uncontrollable with that beserker-like madness...along with, potentially, the method of their creation being involuntary.

I'm not sure if it was the transference bolt protected Ballas, but it's definitely what gave him the ability to speak to Umbra via thought. I still don't think he forced Umbra to kill his son though, as you can see through the memories that the madness was taking hold...manifesting through the formation of Infestation growth on the room that, logically, wasn't there as neither Ballas nor his son made comments on the rapidly growing infestation around them. I'm pretty confident Ballas was just letting nature take its course, fully protected and resulting in the only outlet for that madness being Umbra's son.

Ballas also implies that the Warframes were uncontrollable until the Tenno, saying that they "drugged them, tortured them, eviscerated them... We brutalized their minds...but it did not work. Until they came." He even goes onto say that they don't even fully understand how the Tenno do it, simply saying that they found away to take the Warframe's pain away.

Alongside that, if Ballas had direct control...why not just make him kill himself? Why not force him to be obedient, a subservient bodyguard who has the constant memory of being forced to kill his own son and protecting the individual who made him do it? Surely this all would have been more preferable, as a means of torture, but he was simply imprisoned. From the way things play out, Ballas was simply immune to assault...but had zero control. The most he seemed to do was stop Umbra in his place...but not guide his actions.

While we don't know the timeline of events...from what Ballas has said, it doesn't seem like they yet knew how to pacify the Warframes beyond the Tenno at this point either. It's perfectly possible that the Warframes we're currently using are new tech created by Lotus, docile clones.

12 hours ago, ShadowExodus said:

But tenno do have a physical body. They can be hurt through the warframe as shown by some transmissions where they exclaimed that 'whatever' hurts, more than likely a feedback loop from the transference. I'm sure everyone knows that they are old but they're not unkillable, just extremely hard to kill because they can just nope tf out of the warframe and back to the orbiter. 

It's possible that they're immortal and just don't know it themselves...but yeah, it's definitely implied that they're mortal in several ways.

11 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

imho they have a physical appearance, bust that's just because it's imbued in their memories. It's just a speculation, but I think their body is looooong gone, and they are just ghosts made of pure Void who kept their ancient resemblance drenched in memories shared with the Warframe they possessed for so long.

So far, there's nothing to support this idea beyond the gameplay mechanic when we die as an operator and are shown floating unconscious in the Void.

That could mean the Tenno are immortal...or it could just be a gameplay mechanic to give us something to look at while waiting to respawn. Not enough info, but we may find out here as we get into the future content...since we're apparently aging up and the like.

The Lotus seemed to think we were mortal, as she was very keen on keeping the Stalker away from our bodies.

[ILOHARTA]

18 minutes ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

He was, however, a horrible figure prior to that.

 

 I don't think so, he was just extremely rational and perhaps deeply attached to his kind. What's the most rational thing to do against an overwhelming threat to your own survival and all you care about?

the only time we do die is during operator only story-missions and, instead of a simple loading screen, we're given an image of the Tenno floating unconscious within the void.

do you believe in coincidences?

I remember an Anime with an arrogant little immortal child who scoffed at someone threatening to kill him, before the individual said that his immortality didn't spare him pain, and he could spend an eternity finding new ways to make him experience agony, new ways to break and shatter his mind. He got pretty sadistic with his speech, and it definitely rattled the immortal.

you are a man of culture to know the legend of the Rail Tracer

Even so...it's really hard to form a compelling story when your protagonist is immortal.

it's hard but not as one could expect. Friends and loved ones of said immortal being can still be subject to bad stuff...

the Tenno themselves believe they're mortal.

the Tenno believed they were Warframes until a while ago 🙂 I'd say what they believe or not isn't relevant anymore

the loading screen is an indication that when the Tenno die, they simply manifest in the Void floating unconsciousness until they wake up.

my way of interpreting that, is "the third dream".

The Tenno we get to play are still...incredibly weak, save for their invulnerability.

yeah, maxing all focus schools and having all those passives really feel underwhelming: you can just void dash through open world maps, regenerate energy forever, be invulnerable, destroy everything that's unpleasant to your sight with void beams, and when you are tired of experiencing this pathetic weakness you can possess a space golem that is the embodiment of the very concept of "nightmare".

 

 

So far, there's nothing to support this idea beyond the gameplay mechanic when we die as an operator and are shown floating unconscious in the Void.

well, we can pretend to not notice they literally possess the Warframe, and can also pretend to not see how transference works (de-materializing and going back and forth from physical appearance to consciousness of the Warframe). And yes, if we pretend to not see any of these clues, then yes the player is just a regular kiddo.

 

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

18 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

imho they have a physical appearance, bust that's just because it's imbued in their memories. It's just a speculation, but I think their body is looooong gone, and they are just ghosts made of pure Void who kept their ancient resemblance drenched in memories shared with the Warframe they possessed for so long.

I mean sure you can keep that speculation. But it doesn't change the fact that Teeno has a physical body no matter how you try to slice it. There's this thing called cryopods that tenno were in you know? And before you try to say that the warframes were the one in cryopods no, the reservoir on the moon where the tenno were acted as a cryopod for preservation too. The only one who would barely fit your description was Rell, who bound his spirit to Harrow.

7 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

Regardless, I think the cloning process ultimately made those psyches dormant. Each new generation of Warframes was more a suit than the last, with the originals possessing the most active of psyches and every generation after possessing less.

It was said by Ballas himself that they broke the minds of the warframes as to not have them rebel. If they're able to break their minds, it's not surprising that they can make them mindless puppets for the tenno to control as seen with the multitudes of warframes tenno have access to in the current era and especially in the Second Dream sequence when the tenno found their real body. 

7 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

This might explain why our Umbra choked us out and went on a rampage, but after everything was said and done...is now little more than a suit unless we need it to function independently in battle. You jump out of him on your Orbiter and there's no movement...no matter how long you stare at him. Sadly...

That's because he was rage fueled from the torment Ballas subjected him to that made him a wild dog that would lash out at anything. Don't confuse gameplay mechanics with lore. It would be a neat feature if he were to move around in the orbiter but the way it is now doesn't change the fact that Umbra still has his sentience.

7 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

This would also further explain why Lotus was so distraught over Mirage being destroyed. It may have been the first Mirage, and while the Tenno was perfectly fine in their stasis pod...Mirage herself, the human who was ultimately transformed into the Mirage Warframe, died. One half of that union was destroyed...and the next iteration, while still possessing the same personality, wasn't going to have the original piece to that puzzle.

 

It wouldn't be surprising if the feedback loop from the warframe to the tenno got overloaded and killed the tenno on the transference chair. I doubt Lotus would be distraught over a puppet dieing. We do know that Tenno can feel pain while piloting a warframe as shown from their quotes. Or it could just be one of the lore loopholes that were left because DE didn't had a proper writer back then. The former is plausible while the latter is more than likely the truth. 

7 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

I'd have to log in again, but I'm pretty sure that entry states that it was the room that held the Tenno, past tense...they weren't there anymore. If I'm remembering correctly, they had no knowledge of those events, it was just their residual presence that pacified him. If we're to assume that the psyche of the individual is active in those original Warframes, then Rhino looking at his gore-stained hands makes a lot of sense when his berserk rage suddenly gives way to lucidity.

"What have I done? What have I become...?"

Very possible thoughts to have after you slaughter countless people in a fit of berserker rage and suddenly find yourself lucid.

Yes it was a room that they kept the tenno currently not past tense. I agree with your point somewhat that the rhino was pacified when it got near the cell because the tenno was there. 

8 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

I'm not sure if it was the transference bolt protected Ballas, but it's definitely what gave him the ability to speak to Umbra via thought. I still don't think he forced Umbra to kill his son though, as you can see through the memories that the madness was taking hold...manifesting through the formation of Infestation growth on the room that, logically, wasn't there as neither Ballas nor his son made comments on the rapidly growing infestation around them. I'm pretty confident Ballas was just letting nature take its course, fully protected and resulting in the only outlet for that madness being Umbra's son.

Alongside that, if Ballas had direct control...why not just make him kill himself? Why not force him to be obedient, a subservient bodyguard who has the constant memory of being forced to kill his own son and protecting the individual who made him do it? Surely this all would have been more preferable, as a means of torture, but he was simply imprisoned. From the way things play out, Ballas was simply immune to assault...but had zero control. The most he seemed to do was stop Umbra in his place...but not guide his actions.

While we don't know the timeline of events...from what Ballas has said, it doesn't seem like they yet knew how to pacify the Warframes beyond the Tenno at this point either. It's perfectly possible that the Warframes we're currently using are new tech created by Lotus, docile clones.

The transference bolt is what gave Ballas control over Umbra. If Ballas didn't force Umbra to kill his own son that time then Umbra would've went after Ballas first (and failed) like he did twice during the sacrifice as we know the transference bolt doesn't stop Umbra from attempting to kill Ballas. The manifestation of the infestation might just be the side effect of having the helminth infestation transforming his body and umbra wasn't mad but berserk with rage until the tenno came along and pacified it somewhat. 

Why would Ballas make Umbra kill himself? The whole point of making him kill his own son and keep that single memory was to torture him for eternity. It doesn't make a difference of the torture that Umbra was going through whether he is made a bodyguard or imprisoned. Making him a bodyguard would've raised questions for the same orokin he was betraying because this was a unique Excalibur model, with a unique transference bolt and the fact that it can move with out being controlled by the tenno / has sentience. It shows that Ballas can voice commands to Umbra but that's about it, if he can tell Umbra to stop in place, he can also make him kill his son. 

If Ballas was at the point where he can say that the Dax soldier was becoming a surrogate for the Unholy tenno and call the fact that he would still have a memory as a warframe then they're at that point where warframes are mindless puppets for the Tenno to take control of.

 

[Andele3025]

On 2019-11-13 at 1:40 PM, Dragmod said:

My understanding is that while originally there were only one of each frame, those being the Primes, the "standard" frames were developed after the fall of the Orokins.

Though, we know there were also multiple attempts to create Excalibur. Umbra being one of the early attempts and Prime being the final, perfected attempt.

Im pretty sure its reverse, Excal Prime being the OG, the uncontrollable infested monstrosity that got discarded (till the tenno came along), Umbra being one of Ballas' future attempts (near the end of the orokin era/just before the tenno going full germany on the wankersarm blueman group.

[ILOHARTA]

15 hours ago, ShadowExodus said:

But it doesn't change the fact that Teeno has a physical body no matter how you try to slice it.

it's fair for anybody to hold their own belief, so you are perfectly free to believe whatever you prefer; however, have you ever head of the Pauli Exclusion Principle?
Basically, everything we do as Operator completely bars any possibility to have a physical body.

[ILOHARTA]

On 2019-11-13 at 1:16 PM, Jarriaga said:

This supports the notion that there's only one of each WF because, otherwise, the only other alternative would be that somehow every single Grendel (If more than one) would have happened to have a Gauss best friend, and all Grendel and Gauss units would have also have happened to travel together.

I found a devstream that has some useful food for thoughts (link is with timestamp to the direct question):

 

[RallenCaptura]

Am 13.11.2019 um 14:15 schrieb DrBorris:

My take is that there were " original Warframes", self sentient beings. And when Ballas talked about those un-piloted Warframes being uncontrollable that was not that they were beasts, but that those Warframes had their own free will and did not follow the will of the Orokin. It is easier to control the will of teenagers that have had their mind wiped than some person you tortured.

I really like that thought because nothing says that Umbra was the only conscious frame but maybe either the only known or just the first. Also DE said they wanted to make some other Umbra frames (and if it's just the original eight) that are conscious. It also may be possible that those eight original warframes were like the ultimate elite in the Orokin era who were too strong to be kept alive. Just like how Ballas tried to get rid of Excal Umbra. I could imagine the first eight to be something of a special task force who did the job at first but the more the old war got out of hand the more uncontrollable the Umbra Task Force became and other units were needed thus resulting in the creation of the unconscious Prime frames and later their non prime frames. What if the stories in Rhino Primes and Ember Primes codex entry are not about them but their Umbra variants? Of course DE didn't write such a complex story with such detail and secrets unfolding years later but they could adapt the story to that idea. Lore is alterable and it could give the other Umbras an actual meaning and connection to the rest of the story instead of being just another variant that somehow exists and we find out about now just like with the regular frames.

tl:dr the conscious frames are the Umbra frames and the prime variant were developed at the same time the Orokin got their hands on the Tenno which happened after the Umbras.

[NuclearCoffeePot]

On 2019-11-13 at 7:16 AM, Jarriaga said:

Some time ago I started thinking about Revenant's "creation". Originally, Revenant was a different WF called Warden, but had been exposed to the remains of the Sentient killed by Gara for so long that he became corrupted and transformed into what we know as Revenant. This got me thinking about the convoluted process it would be to actually create a second Revenant by having another Warden follow the same process in order to obtain the same results. That, when coupled with Gara's lore entry referring to her as if she was the only Gara (Or at least the only Gara worth talking about) got me thinking that maybe frames are unique.

There's also Chains of Harrow before Mask of The Revenant. Not even the Lotus knew of Harrow, which is difficult to believe unless there was only one of it.

Sure we have WF blueprints that create fully built frames, but these are only gameplay concessions in my opinion for the same reason we have all done TWW and got one of the Queens killed.

Fast forward to the Leverian and Grende's entry, and it includes a dedicated section just for Gauss because he was apparently always present around Grendel. They were "Ancient Allies":

"It came as no surprise to me, to find this tiny fragment of Gauss just outside the city. Indeed, if one thing is for certain, wherever we find evidence of Grendel, we're sure to find some trace of Gauss as well. Did they breach the city as a pair? Or did Gauss hang back intercepting the patrols, generously letting his friend Grendel eat his fill at the feast within?"

This supports the notion that there's only one of each WF because, otherwise, the only other alternative would be that somehow every single Grendel (If more than one) would have happened to have a Gauss best friend, and all Grendel and Gauss units would have also have happened to travel together.

What do you all think? And what would be the implications for frames such as Valkyr Prime for example?

Thought: the warframes(like harrow) who we meet or (like grendel/gauss) have stories relating to eachother as buddies are all talking about the original suits and their users, there were only a limited number of tenno after all so while some were prob produced in bulk as replacements the original frames were each unique to their pilot, they didn't switch willy nilly like we do now, the frame blueprints we get are just that, either old blueprints used to make the original or extracted from the original as a copy to get special powers- on a side note this makes me think about valkitty- shy was a frame, tortured by the corpus till she became a rage fueled monster frame, that right there, is umbra. How did they torture a frame without it's owner, unless it was an umbra frame-