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Titania: Here we go again[Feedback/Rework Ideas]

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19 hours ago, zhellon said:

I said it was weak because it didn't make sense to Titania. Go back to the question: "why does Titania need archwing mode?".

High damage? You're standing on the edge, because the normal weapon is doing enough damage, and your operator can kill targets at any level. You don't need Dex Pixia all the time and what's more, it is extremely inconvenient. Do you have tons of damage? Okay, but it doesn't make sense if there's a man in front who burns everything with a conventional weapon. Do Dex Pixia and Divata do anything to make them different from conventional weapons? No.The main content is level 100. My kuva brakk can burn 165 heavy targets in seconds. And I don't do shaman builds for this.

Razorfly does not give invulnerability. What's more, the more enemies level, the more you need razorfly mechanics, the faster razorfly die. If you think it's a good invulnerability mechanic, well, I won't change your mind. But it won't save you beyond quick missions.

And it all makes no sense, because there is no answer to the first question. As I said, Wukong now benefits more from this than Titania.

I don't think you actually know what point you're trying to make, you're jumping from power to mechanic to comparison to essentially aesthetic 'need'... I don't think you know what you don't like RW, only that you don't like it.
It's there because she's a fairy and it's the easiest way to introduce a 'small mode', as it already exists via the archwing system, and I think it's perfectly fine for her and fits the frame well, it's about the only power that does, it's literally her drawcard gimmick, frankly she's boring without it and it's the only reason I bother playing her.

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8 часов назад, Carnage2K4 сказал:

I don't think you actually know what point you're trying to make, you're jumping from power to mechanic to comparison to essentially aesthetic 'need'... I don't think you know what you don't like RW, only that you don't like it.


It's there because she's a fairy and it's the easiest way to introduce a 'small mode', as it already exists via the archwing system, and I think it's perfectly fine for her and fits the frame well, it's about the only power that does, it's literally her drawcard gimmick, frankly she's boring without it and it's the only reason I bother playing her.

She was bored without him. That's the problem. Because she doesn't do much with him either. Now imagine that the first three abilities have started to be much more useful than razorwing, with RW still eating your energy for a normal archwing mode that doesn't do anything special, but "just is fun." There will be two options, either you build Titania efficiently without RW. Either you build Titania in RW, but the rest of the abilities suffer from it.

I write about it again and you miss it: RW is useless for the Titania set. Or Titania set is useless for razorwing. Interpret it as you will. This does not change the fact that the first 3 abilities and the 4th ability are unrelated. Without razorwing changes you will not be able to achieve this.

Your only argument is that RW is fun and it fits the theme. Mind you, I didn't argue with that. But RW is useless. It only works against bosses that don't require mobility. On normal missions, it provides playstyle, but due to the fact that it blocks your gear - it greatly reduces your effectiveness. (In the game about FARM EQUIPMENT) All you get in return is a flight. And this flight is useless to your abilities. This flight is useless for your weapon (Yes, you put a headshot, but does nothing else). 

But you can continue to ignore this argument. But imagine if Wisp beam would be the only unique ability of the Wisp. Her the rest ability to better, on this I little when d use this.

Edited by zhellon

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13 hours ago, zhellon said:

She was bored without him. That's the problem. Because she doesn't do much with him either. Now imagine that the first three abilities have started to be much more useful than razorwing, with RW still eating your energy for a normal archwing mode that doesn't do anything special, but "just is fun." There will be two options, either you build Titania efficiently without RW. Either you build Titania in RW, but the rest of the abilities suffer from it.

Point is it's not "just fun" as I said, if you build it right it's OP, it's an opinion that it's boring to you.

13 hours ago, zhellon said:

I write about it again and you miss it: RW is useless for the Titania set. Or Titania set is useless for razorwing. Interpret it as you will. This does not change the fact that the first 3 abilities and the 4th ability are unrelated. Without razorwing changes you will not be able to achieve this.

More like her 1 and 3 are useless, RW and Tribute are awesome together, like I've been saying you don't know how to use her, and it's showing.

13 hours ago, zhellon said:

Your only argument is that RW is fun and it fits the theme.

Observe my Quotes:

On 2019-11-13 at 11:22 PM, Carnage2K4 said:

Razorwing is stupidly OP

On 2019-11-14 at 4:14 PM, Carnage2K4 said:

the ability to make you near invulnerable, do good damage and be super fast is OP as hell.

It seems you are either ignoring my comments, unable to read, or you're interrupting them in some way you've made up in your head... I've only said RW is not boring, my entire argument from the start is that it's OP, because you said it was weak, but for some unfathomable reason you have come to the conclusion that my entire point is that "it's fun"... Which actually speaks to your problem her, you find it boring but you lack any real reason it should be changed because what one person finds boring is irrelevant.

As per my past comment, you find RW boring, and therefore you are making every argument you can to say that it's weak or does not fit her kit because "it's boring" is not an argument to change it, and now you're making up arguments and attributing them to me to make a point against them, which is a deceptive method and just points to the fact you don't really have any good reason to alter RW.
The fact I constantly have the highest damage and lowest damage taken is enough evidence to show it's a good ability, add to that it's unique, entertaining and fits the fairy theme. All these factors make is a cool ability that remains very powerful, irrelevant of if you personally find it boring.

P.S. "blocking gear" can be an opportunity if you consider building outside the normal boring crap that most of the 'grind to grind' players use.

Edited by Carnage2K4

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10 часов назад, Carnage2K4 сказал:

that it's OP

Well. Then I don't see how it can be OP. What is it OP? Maybe I just don't understand, explain to me.

Damage with all the shamanism is still weaker than other frames. And it doesn't matter, because in normal content, you don't need a lot of damage. This is Phaedra damage. No more, no less. Take a frame that can overclock Phaedra and get the same result. And I don't need to remind you that there are better weapons, right? Mobility? Any frame has good mobility in the current system. Yes, Titania does it better, but zephyr or Wukong do it even better. And now we have gauss, which has a fast default move. Razorfly? It's good control, but then again, because you can't position them properly and recover, they'll just die from a single missile. Especially, I don't think you're going to build the whole conversation on that RW OP because it has razorfly.Evasion? Consider it 25% resist. It will not save you.

So what is it OP?

10 часов назад, Carnage2K4 сказал:

you find RW boring

I find razorwing useless. I said it straight out. There are simply no situations where I can use it for its intended purpose.

10 часов назад, Carnage2K4 сказал:

you don't really have any good reason to alter RW

Спойлер

 

Спойлер

 

Спойлер

 

Спойлер

 

 

 

I think I have good reason.

10 часов назад, Carnage2K4 сказал:

RW and Tribute are awesome together, like I've been saying you don't know how to use her, and it's showing.

Yes, I can agree. It's easier for you to collect buffs in RW and reducing the accuracy of enemies goes well with reducing the size. But, this is a 1/4 capacity. What about the other buffs? DR-Yes, it works, but if you don't take damage then it's useless for you. And if you have weak health, it will not protect you from high damage. Speed reduction of enemies and buff damage of companions? OK, reducing the speed of enemies I will not even touch, but buff for companions? Why? Razorfy does not deal high damage. My dog can kill 100 heavy targets in 1-3 strikes and it is useful, but the problem is that for this you need to give up razorwing.

And I very strongly fear, that in the future will have to abandon RW, to effectively use other ability to. I literally see now that I don't need RW on arbitrage and Tribute + Latern work great. And if RW doesn't become a mechanic, then content that limits energy or abilities will simply force us not to use it. Or we will constantly change the mode in order to spend a lot of energy and get a slight increase in damage/control, which is not required in normal content and is useless for overLVL.

Although, I can agree that against 60 levels of normal missions is an OP. but even an sortie can just make you suffer with its mechanics "says Simon". Although you can ignore some impacts, by type of weapon restriction, but a lot of frames can do that. Yes, with RW, you can come up with some things, such as completely avoiding the bombardment in the battle with Kella, but initially it was invented by the players on Ivara.

My problem isn't that RW isn't fun. My problem is the good reasons that force me not to use it. RW completely lacks progression and meaning in the game. It's fun, but useless. Of course, if we are not talking about a battle with the bosses. Titania is good against bosses, but there are frames that are just as good at it. That's why Titania is missing from meta eidolon hunt.

Edited by zhellon

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On 2019-11-16 at 10:35 PM, zhellon said:

Well. Then I don't see how it can be OP. What is it OP? Maybe I just don't understand, explain to me.

Damage with all the shamanism is still weaker than other frames. And it doesn't matter, because in normal content, you don't need a lot of damage. This is Phaedra damage. No more, no less. Take a frame that can overclock Phaedra and get the same result. And I don't need to remind you that there are better weapons, right? Mobility? Any frame has good mobility in the current system. Yes, Titania does it better, but zephyr or Wukong do it even better. And now we have gauss, which has a fast default move. Razorfly? It's good control, but then again, because you can't position them properly and recover, they'll just die from a single missile. Especially, I don't think you're going to build the whole conversation on that RW OP because it has razorfly.Evasion? Consider it 25% resist. It will not save you.

shamanism... Phaedra damage...
You comparisons are ridiculous, I said it before and it's more blatant here.

I don't even know what point you're trying to make with your videos... That you can play Titania in the most min-max way possible to produce it's most redundant form?
Again, all you're doing is fishing for reasons you don't like it, finding an aspect in another frame to compare with then saying because X-frame can do something better it's not worth it. This is the most shallow way to make builds, and if this is how you make your WFs I'm not surprised you can't find any reasons to use it. Well here is a tip: stop playing Titania. Go play your shamanism-Phaedra-zephyr-Wukong-gauss chimera  that does not exist.

RW does not need "progression and meaning in the game" it's not a quest, it's a single ability, this is ridiculous.
I don't even use her with bosses, and an eidolon hunt is a not a litmus test how good a frame is, let alone a single ability.


You might find it useless but I play my Titania with RW on 100% of the time, I typically get more kills that other players and take less damage, you can try to make all the nuance points you like, all the devoid comparisons to specific strengths of other frames you like and set up specific simulacrum tests, they don't reflect usefulness in dealing with variability of actual in-game situations.
 

Edited by Carnage2K4

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14 минут назад, Carnage2K4 сказал:

shamanism... Phaedra damage...
You comparisons are ridiculous, I said it before and it's more blatant here.

I don't even know what point you're trying to make with your videos... That you can play Titania in the most min-max way possible to produce it's most redundant form?
Again, all you're doing is fishing for reasons you don't like it, finding an aspect in another frame to compare with then saying because X-frame can do something better it's not worth it. This is the most shallow way to make builds, and if this is how you make your WFs I'm not surprised you can't find any reasons to use it. Well here is a tip: stop playing Titania. Go play your shamanism-Phaedra-zephyr-Wukong-gauss chimera that does not exist.

RW does not need "progression and meaning in the game" it's not a quest, it's a single ability, this is ridiculous.
I don't even use her with bosses, and an eidolon hunt is a not a litmus test how good a frame is, let alone a single ability.


You might find it useless but I play my Titania with RW on 100% of the time, I typically get more kills that other players and take less damage, you can try to make all the nuance points you like, all the devoid comparisons to specific strengths of other frames you like and set up specific simulacrum tests, they don't reflect usefulness in dealing with variability of actual in-game situations.

I feel that you have come only to insult me.
Are you calling my arguments useless because "You make more kills than other players"? I'll tell you a terrible secret, other players may not try to play. I can do more kills than saryn using conventional weapons. Do you realize how ridiculous this is? 

Secondly: "stop playing Titania. Go play your shamanism-Phaedra-zephyr-Wukong-gauss chimera that does not exist.". I don't think it's any of your business which frame I play, right?

Third: I see that Titania uses the archwing system as an ability mechanic. I can see that Titania is much worse than archwing because she can't change her weapons. I see that Titania has collected all the problems of the archwing system and has not been updated for a long time, although the archwing system has received additions like skywing. I see that the archwing system is not being used by Titania's other abilities properly. The problem with this discussion is that I don't see you arguing against it. You're just saying that RW is OP. So what? Am I trying to make it an even bigger OP?

Fourth:I can say I've been playing Titania for 200 hours. And, if I want, I use it everywhere regardless of the mode. And I use all of her abilities, not just RW. A simulacrum is a great way to show problems. But I'm sure you haven't looked beyond the first video, have you?

Fifth:You tagged my post where I asked, "What is it OP?" Did you answer that question? The fact that you can kill many enemies is not the answer. Trinity can also kill a lot of enemies, because this is a game about killing enemies. What advantage does Titania get from RW? Once again I will go through all the best sides of RW:

1) High damage doesn't matter because conventional weapons can outperform in DPS or usability. 

2) razorfly is a good control, but it doesn't work well at high levels unless you recast RW every 5 seconds.

3) Evasion only works when you have good protection. In DPS it useless.

4) Archwing mode-yeah, that's cool. But is it worth the restrictions it imposes on the player. And more than that, what advantage does Titania get out of it?

5) Yes, you're getting smaller, but as far as I understand, your hitbox is still big and a lot of hitscan weapons are capable of hitting you, so that's just a visual advantage.

Here are all the aspects. They can be ignored for most of the game, because of what problems RW imposes on the player. If I have a crit cat, I am already much more useful than Titania in RW. You can say for a long time that you have a huge experience of playing on Titania, but it will not change this fact.

 

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On 2019-11-16 at 7:05 AM, zhellon said:

Well. Then I don't see how it can be OP. What is it OP? Maybe I just don't understand, explain to me.

Sir you builds are absolute garbage for dps Titania. I have 8 forma in her and 8 forma in her exalts. Your builds are horrendous. Of vourse you dps is terrible jesus no wonder you think she is bad at doing damage. Learn to mod I will gladly provide my mod loadouts to help you out.

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4 часа назад, Lucian_Adrion сказал:
Sir you builds are absolute garbage for dps Titania. I have 8 forma in her and 8 forma in her exalts. Your builds are horrendous. Of vourse you dps is terrible jesus no wonder you think she is bad at doing damage. Learn to mod I will gladly provide my mod loadouts to help you out.

My builds are designed to use all abilities and both forms. If you know the best way to stay in normal shape and not be killed for 2 seconds, I'll be happy to listen. Otherwise, these comments are unnecessary since you only build for razorwing damage, which is useless most of the time. 150% strength + firerate arcane is enough for level 100 damage.

The problem is that conventional weapons have efficiencies like 200% strength Titania + firerate arcane. If you don't understand, I'll explain again. Normal weapons are stronger by default. If I were to gain access to a normal weapon in RW, I could ignore the strength parameter (and Dex pixia and Divata ability) and build in control and defense, which is more relevant for normal missions. Now, such a build causes problem choice: Either I refuse from RW and'm using his only as method of movement very rarely, either I have been arguing sit on two chairs sake of archwing mechanics, that strongly reduces my effectiveness in combat. Of course, I can use the build at 200% strength + RW blitz (Again, you become severely limited in the protection and use of your abilities.), but the problem is that it will be much less efficient than if I used a bug and called larkspur. (On which I have a good riven, which further increases the gap.)

And I have 15 forms in Titania (more if you add sublime weapons). I tested her a lot to understand all the limitations. 

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On 2019-11-13 at 6:22 AM, Lucian_Adrion said:

the large explodes doing damage based on the amount of souls collected and how much it healed allies. 

I like the idea but I think the "and how much it healed allies." should be removed

 

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Was Titania always able to have 10 Razorflies drons after you have all 4 Tribute buff up on you or is it new? If so than I whoud like to see more of it.

Oh can somone please add that info on the tooltip.

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On 2019-11-18 at 8:08 AM, zhellon said:

My builds are designed to use all abilities and both forms. If you know the best way to stay in normal shape and not be killed for 2 seconds, I'll be happy to listen. Otherwise, these comments are unnecessary since you only build for razorwing damage, which is useless most of the time. 150% strength + firerate arcane is enough for level 100 damage.

The problem is that conventional weapons have efficiencies like 200% strength Titania + firerate arcane. If you don't understand, I'll explain again. Normal weapons are stronger by default. If I were to gain access to a normal weapon in RW, I could ignore the strength parameter (and Dex pixia and Divata ability) and build in control and defense, which is more relevant for normal missions. Now, such a build causes problem choice: Either I refuse from RW and'm using his only as method of movement very rarely, either I have been arguing sit on two chairs sake of archwing mechanics, that strongly reduces my effectiveness in combat. Of course, I can use the build at 200% strength + RW blitz (Again, you become severely limited in the protection and use of your abilities.), but the problem is that it will be much less efficient than if I used a bug and called larkspur. (On which I have a good riven, which further increases the gap.)

And I have 15 forms in Titania (more if you add sublime weapons). I tested her a lot to understand all the limitations. 

You do not understand do you? Razorwing has to be limit or else it is just mini archwing. That is so off theme and makes absolutely no sense especially when we can summon archwings in open worlds now. It is an exalted mod not a movement mode and yes I do build for an efficient Razorwing, HOWEVER, you act as if it is some feat to use her abilities without messing up your build. She can have 4 lanterns out so range on those arent that much of issue. Spell bing can be recast so that issue does exsist either and her buffs do scale with any mods duration or strength just the aura range which let's be real here are you playing fir you allows when you are playing Titania? Maybe you should but in  application that answer is slowly gonna become no. Designing a Exalted character to use all their abilites does not always work cough cough VALKYR cough. Take for instance Baruuk. If you build to use all of his abilites he ult would lose tons of damage or his out would lose tons of range. I build for the dr and quick charge ulti which reduces my cc. Though I have a cc build I can run. You have to pick a focus. The only characters that don't respect this standard is Nezha, Wisp, and Oberon who can easily build for the entirety of their kits due to being all in one but even they have limitations on what is effective. You build methodology is flawed. You can't say the system broke when everyone else uses it to amazing extents around you(yes that is a preemptive answer)

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3 часа назад, Lucian_Adrion сказал:

Razorwing has to be limit or else it is just mini archwing.

And? Is there a problem with that? At this point, I can think of more interactions with archwing weapons than with Dex Pixia, which is useless most of the time.

3 часа назад, Lucian_Adrion сказал:

You can't say the system broke when everyone else uses it to amazing extents around you(yes that is a preemptive answer) (yes that is a preemptive answer)

Maybe you are in a parallel universe where every other player prefers to play on Titania. But on my personal observations Titania mainers dwell only on forum. There are none in the game.On this I not know, who all these "everyone". I'm sure all of these "everyone" changes frames when it comes to complex content that can't be passed with one hand with your eyes closed. But you keep your opinion. Let's see how much Titania Prime will fly a month after release. In the end, people argued with me even when I said that past "rework" is trash. 

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3 hours ago, zhellon said:

And? Is there a problem with that? At this point, I can think of more interactions with archwing weapons than with Dex Pixia, which is useless most of the time.

Maybe you are in a parallel universe where every other player prefers to play on Titania. But on my personal observations Titania mainers dwell only on forum. There are none in the game.On this I not know, who all these "everyone". I'm sure all of these "everyone" changes frames when it comes to complex content that can't be passed with one hand with your eyes closed. But you keep your opinion. Let's see how much Titania Prime will fly a month after release. In the end, people argued with me even when I said that past "rework" is trash. 

Sure. But sir we said you ideas are not optimal. Never said she was good.

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