Will spin to win ever end?

[CeePee]

1 hour ago, ILOHARTA said:

why in the world anybody would waste time with lv400 enemies?

Events exist.

[Andele3025]

14 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

reasonable in what universe

I mean, true, 3.5 is above the 2.5 to 3x combo that could be kept up in most missions due to enemy count, spawn rates, mission delays and decay timer.

If you however meant 70k in 9~m range (and proportionally up the more ou gotta hump the enemy) is in fact very reasonable in the same universe where enemies hit that level of ehp on starchart, the hundred thousands of ehp in farm missions n sorties and low millions in "end game" content and all guns do around half as much dps with no ramp time or as much with little effort to aim for general head region with no ramp or effort right out of the bat with better range (iirc only Tigris, Euphie, Bronco and now the Catchmoon have sub 10m falloff).
You can disagree but generally in video games/RPGs/Looters that are well designed, if you keep up in gear and upgrades as enemies progress, the killtime doesnt change except for bosses. And even tho DE didnt design bosses as much as slap invul phases (and have 1 guy who sometimes gets released to give a few tips like kela leaving the arena while something else is happening, telling them to steal the crystal monsters from BL2 for thumpers but forgetting to note that the full mechanics and behavior is important or zealot actually having both actual weakness and downtime mechanics, tho sadly invul too instead of 99.99% DR) the actual point of game design remains valid.

[ILOHARTA]

1 hour ago, CeePee said:

Events exist.

which kind of event pits you vs lv400 enemies? I am honestly curious, having joined recently the game haven't found any of those even in Sorties... so I may keep that in mind for future reference, if it is an actual occurrence

[CeePee]

2 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

which kind of event pits you vs lv400 enemies? I am honestly curious, having joined recently the game haven't found any of those even in Sorties... so I may keep that in mind for future reference, if it is an actual occurrence

Some events have leaderboards for people who gather the most points. Usually that means endurance runs where enemy levels get out of hand real quick.

[(PSN)thecoolman575]

ill stop spamming slide attacks when DE makes all the stances have full momentum while moving. the whip stances especially are extremely slow and restricting. it gets super annoying when use sprint speed mods too, slide attacks are the only thing i can use that won’t completely stop my movement on most weapons

[ILOHARTA]

2 hours ago, CeePee said:

Some events have leaderboards for people who gather the most points. Usually that means endurance runs where enemy levels get out of hand real quick.

 

I see. Well, that's an increased challenge for those who constantly seek increased challenges then

[ADDpillz]

Going to copy an paste an excerpt from a Reddit rant I engaged in:

I am confused on how DE expects us to use heavy attacks in the late game. Its far more effective to spam 12x bloodrush light attacks against the trash enemies since 1-2 hits usually kills them anyway. But when we face the actual heavy enemies that are spongey enough to "build up our combo meter" against and might actually be best candidates suited for a heavy attacks; we get punished for it by getting perma stunned by knockdowns (or blocking animations for us primed sure footed master race) that reset our combo meters or even worse we put ourselves in danger of getting one hit killed by toxic breath attacks/corpus mines for getting too close. So far the only strategy that sorta worked was to rely on warframe abilities to either CC enemies in place or debuff them long enough to give us a window to build up a combo and drop a heavy. Although this strategy became pretty moot when the heavy eximus start getting spammed.

I just dont get it. Melee 3.0 wants us to get close to the most dangerous enemies to "combo build/heavy attack" them but the most dangerous enemies are designed to punish players that get too close.

So far I have given up on building for heavy attacks because they become suicide. I shamefully found my self reverting BACK to slide attack spam because even though slide attacks do a ton less damage now, I could atleast attack these enemies without getting perma stun or instagibbed when they attempted to counter.

TLDR:

Sliding is not the problem. It is a symptom of greater problem which is its our only way of countering late game enemies that have one shot kill/ spammable knockdown/ grab attacks without relying on Warframe debuff/cc abilities. Getting surrounded and trying to "combo" your way through mobs of multiple lvl 160+ heavy units is suicide. There's nothing stopping you from getting 1 KOed from the toxic ancient breath or corpus mine in your blind spot. Its way more effective to kite these enemies with slide attacks so you can avoid the counter attack.

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by ADDpillz

[taiiat]

On 2019-11-14 at 5:35 AM, Andele3025 said:

saving between 1 to 3 mod slots with a riven thereby directly increasing damage is not relevant.

uhh... pure Utility Rivens would have been things like Attack Speed, Range - which were thinigs people were using in addition to base Mods for that stuff, not as a replacement for. a pure Utility Riven would have actually reduced the peak Damage per hit of your Melee Weapon.

On 2019-11-14 at 5:35 AM, Andele3025 said:

rivens in general are not a balancing factor

that's the official statement, but it's not remotely true. for the past couple years just about every Weapon released has has its Stats specifically set at points where a Riven would be necessary for the Weapon to fully perform its designed role via its Stats. carefully picked numbers to make Rivens a necessity if you want your Weapon to actually be able to do its job correctly.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

22 hours ago, ILOHARTA said:

which kind of event pits you vs lv400 enemies? I am honestly curious, having joined recently the game haven't found any of those even in Sorties... so I may keep that in mind for future reference, if it is an actual occurrence

This guy would like to say hi :)

[Andele3025]

45 minutes ago, taiiat said:

uhh... pure Utility Rivens would have been things like Attack Speed, Range - which were thinigs people were using in addition to base Mods for that stuff, not as a replacement for. a pure Utility Riven would have actually reduced the peak Damage per hit of your Melee Weapon.

Except its not utility, more attack speed is more dps, more range is more kills, both saving you mod space/giving you more damage on other slots, just give up on the sophistry of trying to argue "your statement about weapons without rivens isnt true, see my weapon with a riven does this".

45 minutes ago, taiiat said:

that's the official statement, but it's not remotely true.

While some weapons underperform or have extremely dumb design choices (like hema having recoil on its burst and spread despite designed about headshots with neither crit n base damage nor having the lifesteal be universal to excuse those factors), rivens still dont factor into their balance. If they did the seer would have a disposition of damn 25.
BASE BALANCE IS NOT DETERMINED BY RIVENS.

[DrakeWurrum]

On 2019-11-13 at 9:53 AM, MistressMoonpaw said:

No matter where you look at the endgame (Arbis, sorties, high level content etc) you always see someone with a stupid whip doing the lame spin to win tactic. Will it ever end? I wonder

Have you even tried the new Galatine Prime?

I don't remember which stance, but the one I use is... literally a combo where you spin like 5 or 6 times.

Also, the Machete Wraith Heavy Attack is... pure spin.

So we now have legit spin2win playstyles for those who love that.

[taiiat]

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Except its not utility, more attack speed is more dps, more range is more kills, both saving you mod space/giving you more damage on other slots, just give up on the sophistry of trying to argue "your statement about weapons without rivens isnt true, see my weapon with a riven does this".

While some weapons underperform or have extremely dumb design choices [...] rivens still dont factor into their balance. 

i guess you are just incapable of reading your own argument to see that a Riven adding extra (on top of using other Mods to gain the same Stats) of things like Attack Speed and Range has literally no bearing on how large individual Damage Numbers are.
either that or you don't understand what a Damage Number is.

i guess.... you've never looked at the Stats of Weapons. there are many Weapons that struggle to do the job they have been given Statistically, because of their Stats not being high enough without a Riven in order to do that job.

[AndouRaiton]

1. No spin2win will always be a thing. Why? Because it does decent damage, even after the melee changes, but most importantly, i has great range IN AN AREA AROUND YOU. Which is why it is used, you don't need to aim/face the enemy, just get near them and they die. It's the same reason why the Ignis/Wraith is used a lot as well.

2. Who cares? If someone wants to spin2win, go for it. If you're sick of seeing it then play solo or stick to invite only and invite clanmates/friends who don't spin2win.

[MPonder]

On 2019-11-14 at 1:18 PM, CeePee said:

Some events have leaderboards for people who gather the most points. Usually that means endurance runs where enemy levels get out of hand real quick.

And the rewards is????

[White_Matter]

The only answer to spin to win is stop playing exterminate missions. Spin to win is obnoxious in linear missions. 

[Diavoros]

On 2019-11-13 at 12:53 PM, MistressMoonpaw said:

No matter where you look at the endgame (Arbis, sorties, high level content etc) you always see someone with a stupid whip doing the lame spin to win tactic. Will it ever end? I wonder

Some people are unable to let go of their braindead playstyle, its like asking an ape to evolve overnight to a modern human being.
Range reduction, changes to maiming strike critical bonus, changes to blood rush critical bonus and synergy with other critical chance mods. Slide as a way to play melee is, absolutely dead and buried, good riddance.

[Diavoros]

50 minutes ago, MPonder said:

And the rewards is????

There are no rewards for doing endurance missions other than e-peen, self-gratification and sense of self-accomplishment, which comes with a bonus package of self-entitlement.

[MPonder]

1 minute ago, Diavoros said:

There are no rewards for doing endurance missions other than e-peen, self-gratification and sense of self-accomplishment, which comes with a bonus package of self-entitlement.

But he said event, not just about doing endurance run. Asking about what type of rewards these endurance events give, just to see if I'm losing something. The rest is pretty much subjective, I would feel nothing from wasting time on endurance missions.

[Andele3025]

13 hours ago, taiiat said:

i guess you are just incapable of reading your own argument to see that a Riven adding extra (on top of using other Mods to gain the same Stats) of things like Attack Speed and Range has literally no bearing on how large individual Damage Numbers are.
either that or you don't understand what a Damage Number is.

And you dont understand what mod slots are.

13 hours ago, taiiat said:

i guess.... you've never looked at the Stats of Weapons. there are many Weapons that struggle to do the job they have been given Statistically, because of their Stats not being high enough without a Riven in order to do that job.

No. And thats still entirely aside the point that you forgot how to read for a moment there and made a riven argument on something relevant only for base game balance.

[taiiat]

14 hours ago, Diavoros said:

Slide as a way to play melee is, absolutely dead and buried, good riddance.

no it isn't. all Melee got nerfed at the same time, so Sliding didn't lose all that much relative to the other actions you could perform instead.
you can't just decide that it is, if the math doesn't back that up. and, the math doesn't back that up.

[Diavoros]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

no it isn't. all Melee got nerfed at the same time, so Sliding didn't lose all that much relative to the other actions you could perform instead.
you can't just decide that it is, if the math doesn't back that up. and, the math doesn't back that up.

Stay in denial, maybe if you believe in slide hard enough it will work for you 😉

[V0LDY]

On 2019-11-13 at 10:37 PM, Zekkii said:

Added critical chance on slide attack used to be additive, so 10% critical became 100% with +90%.  Now it's multiplicative, so its 10% * 1.9, or 19% critical chance.  It's the same for rivens and maiming strike.

In addition, Blood Rush used to apply to the entire critical amount, so that 100% would add 165% critical chance per combo multiplier on top of that.  In effect, you could get well over 500% critical chance on a slide attack with a weapon with 0% base critical chance.

I had a build that went up to 1600%ish crit chance using Meme Strike and a Riven on Dual Raza, could hit 450 MILLION damage with Chroma buff and about 100M with other frames 😄

Edited November 16, 2019 by V0LDY

[MPonder]

Arcane Avenger adds 30 percentage points to a weapon's critical chance after other bonuses, though before  Blood Rush.

Is this true yet, anybody tested?

[SnowRyder]

On 2019-11-13 at 4:53 PM, MistressMoonpaw said:

No matter where you look at the endgame (Arbis, sorties, high level content etc) you always see someone with a stupid whip doing the lame spin to win tactic. Will it ever end? I wonder

will snowflakes ever stop crying about it?

[Mizotizoi]

No one is talking of the crazy +220% critical chance (up to 275%, X2 in heavy attacks) of Sacrifical Steel ?
With/out maiming strike and BD there is still a ton of weapons that reach 100 % critical chance base, or with a few strikes...
its kinda hard to do the right math to know between status, critical damage and combo duration...
 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Mizotizoi