A few thoughts on game flaws.

[SolarDwagon]

Archwing-

Sharkwing (Uranus submersible) still needs better movement and attention
Better rewards for archwing missions-the nature of Archwing leads to less spawns and less kills, making them bad for anything not directly archwing related. At least add on some kind of end-of-mission reward that’s useful outside these modes.

Mods-

Way too many mods are still completely useless. Take the base status mods as an example here, they’re just awful and nobody in their right mind would ever use them, even for their intended purpose. They’re not worth the drain for new players, and more experienced players will have the vastly superior dualstats. Please, take a pass over all the mods as unused as these and actually work on them, or remove them outright.

RNG in general-

Warframe, as a game, needs to move away from the pure RNG concept. Relics were MEANT to do this, originally pitched as something that you could refine over time towards a specific reward, but we got the half-hearted system we have now. They still could BE that system-as an example, if at the end of mission, instead of taking an open relic, you could spend traces on a particular drop, and re-close the relic. Tracking that for every player would probably be a little excessive, but some similar system could surely be implemented. Similarly, bosses. If you run a boss 30, 40, 50 times and still can’t get that ONE part you need, there needs to be a system to trade parts in for that boss. Say 10, even 20 Rhino neuroptics can be traded in for a systems or chassis. Just put something in so that even the unluckiest players can see an end to their grind.

[Walkampf]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb SolarDwagon:

At least add on some kind of end-of-mission reward that’s useful outside these modes.

You mean like Endo and Credits?

Last time I checked, these were dropped even in archwing missions.

In addition Archwing Weapons ARE usable outside of Archwing missions.

You personally might not statisfied with that, however, the claim that there is nothing usefull outside of archwing itself factually wrong.

Furthermore, if Arcwing Missions got some sort of significant reward boost the possibility is high a META whould be created. This then whould lead to people complaining that they are 'forced into archwing' to be able to make use of this META.

vor 32 Minuten schrieb SolarDwagon:

Mods-

While I agree on this issue, I think the far more pressing is not the bottomline of mods, but the topline.

Namely: madatory mods.

Vitality, Serration, Hornet Strike, mods like these and of course their primed versions, which, nobody in their right mind would not use.

Sure, the bottomline mods are useless, but they don't cause any real problem.

The top end mods however are making pretty much most of the content in Warframe trivial and thus cause massive problems for the automated level scaling of enemies.

For example with the out of controll Armor values in high level missions.

Or burst-damage forcused enemies oneshotting every warframe which doesn't feature significant EHP.

[SolarDwagon]

20 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

You mean like Endo and Credits?

Last time I checked, these were dropped even in archwing missions.

In addition Archwing Weapons ARE usable outside of Archwing missions.

You personally might not statisfied with that, however, the claim that there is nothing usefull outside of archwing itself factually wrong.

Furthermore, if Arcwing Missions got some sort of significant reward boost the possibility is high a META whould be created. This then whould lead to people complaining that they are 'forced into archwing' to be able to make use of this META.

While I agree on this issue, I think the far more pressing is not the bottomline of mods, but the topline.

Namely: madatory mods.

Vitality, Serration, Hornet Strike, mods like these and of course their primed versions, which, nobody in their right mind would not use.

Sure, the bottomline mods are useless, but they don't cause any real problem.

The top end mods however are making pretty much most of the content in Warframe trivial and thus cause massive problems for the automated level scaling of enemies.

For example with the out of controll Armor values in high level missions.

Or burst-damage forcused enemies oneshotting every warframe which doesn't feature significant EHP.

On endo and credits, woo? Except they drop an absolute fraction of what even running a normal mission would for the reason I already highlighted?
Similarly, archwing weapons being usable outside archwing does absolutely nothing to actually make running Archwing missions any better.

 

Yes, mandatory mods are definitely an issue. DE themselves have floated the idea of transferring many of these stats onto weapon levelling, or rolling them into weapons outright, but have yet to hit upon a way of removing these that works without severely harming the players, or at least that's my impression. But making many currently useless mods at least work for their intended purpose would help competition for the less mandatory slots.

Edited November 14, 2019 by SolarDwagon

[Walkampf]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb SolarDwagon:

but have yet to hit upon a way of removing these that works without severely harming the players, or at least that's my impression.

I think so as well.

And I tihnk, that is the problem. As I said, the current powerlevel is causing major balancing issues in high level enemies.

I tihnk players need to be nerfed quite a bit to make the game work a lot better as a whole.

I ususally throw in the idea of reducing the madatory mods number of Ranks while keeping the bonus per rank the same.

For example: Serration.

Reduce it to having only 4 Ranks. It gives +15% Damage on Rank 0 and 60% on Rank 3.

- This whould have the advantages to not effect new players, but significantly level the playingfield with veteran players.

- It whould also keep the starmap content much more intersting for veteran players, since they can't win by default of their mods.

- Enemies fought on average whould be significantly reduces, so Armor and burst DPS whould be much more managable by DEs balancing staff.

- And, of course, other mods whould be much more competetive with these mods.

 

The only real downside is the e-pen!s of players. Since they don't see numbers as big as they are used to. It whould take a bit of time for these slower people to realisse, that this is the fact for all players and not just them.

World of Warcraft did a similar itemlevel squish during the last expansion. It made the game a lot more managable to the point where they will do an even more extreme squish in the next expansion.

[Tyreaus]

9 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

The only real downside is the e-pen!s of players.

So talking about this beyond just Serration:

I think practical methodology is a consideration, as well. For example: if damage gets nerfed and content isn't adjusted to work with that, then currently "overkill" weapons or abilities could end up the only viable ones in things like Sortie-level content or Disruption missions. It also has the potential to make content feel "messy", for lack of a better term, in the same way Melee 3.0 kind of does: the system doesn't fit with the style of the game. Single-target heavy attacks are fine if you're facing a half-dozen enemies at most, but when that number gets to 20 or 30 and just about everything dies from regular attacks far before a heavy attack becomes necessary or useful, it stops being quite as fitting. Same goes for damage if it starts impacting TTK by a super substantial amount.

And that's just talking about weapon damage. There's everything else tied to it, like abilities, armour, enemy scaling...probably isn't a good thing to nerf weapons and have pretty much everyone relying on abilities, is it?

That isn't to say things don't need to be reined in, they very much do, but I don't think it's just about digital genitalia. At least not for everyone. There's a lot of considerations and a lot of moving parts to get things in a better place and, well, "a lot of moving parts" is what they had with the first Melee 3.0 and Lich update. I still stand by the opinion that that update was, and in some manners still is, an uncanny mess. Take that deployment and apply it to a massive overhaul on even more core elements like damage and abilities and...well, my hopes would be licking the ground.

So, TL;DR: Some people might not trust DE on making those changes in a healthy way, certainly not without a good and clear roadmap. Maybe WoW can do it, but WF isn't WoW.

[Walkampf]

Before anything else:

vor 20 Minuten schrieb Tyreaus:

certainly not without a good and clear roadmap.

I don't think a roadmap is needed. It's a slogan currently used in videogames, owever, Anthem and Fallout 76 showed in the most spectacular fashion that a Roadmap doesn't help anything.

 

But aside from that,, I pretty much agree with you.

Certain abilities whould be needed to be tweaked, but that problem whouldn't be new. This problem already exists. For example, take Saryn. Weapons are, even in the current state of madatory mods, absolutly no competition for her damage output.

And as I said, serration is only one example of things that need to be nerfed.

The difference between a mandatory mod and a Warframe ability is, that the mod is much more widely used than any single ability.

I just think that madatory mods are the best point to start a very large scale balance overhaul. I think it's better to clear up the big chunks first and then after the dust settles down work in the finer details.

And the same goes for Overkill weapons, these also exist. The Riven system was meant to close the gap betwenn those and unused weapons. Sure, it's nice that DE ties to level the playingfield by giving reasons to use lesser used weapons, but in the end, they failed at doing so. The very same kind of weapons which were META before the introduction of Rivens have been META after the introduction.

But I think there is only a limited amount of room to where you can buff anything up.

As for tuning the scaling, I don't think that's the real issue. I recently started a new account on my Switch and my TTK is in quite a good place. I think enemy scaling is done quite good up until around level 100. At this point you start to really consider dealing with scaling issues such as Armor and One-hits.

In my opinion, it whould be good to reduce the amount of players fighting enemies above lvl 100 by making the fight against lower level enemies much more interesting.

 

Just some examples from my personal experience, why I've come to this conclusion:

I've stopped using Primed mods entirely for over 2 years.

And I've recently started using duplicates of madatory mods, which are not Max rank.

- Simple fissure missions are actually fun again, because they provide an actual challenge and I can't  just auto-kill everything in my LoS.

- Companions are, at this point, actually worth having with you aside from the Kavaat that can grant you a loot-boost.

- I less Forma, since I'm using much less Mod capacity.

- I'm much more free in choosing my weapons, because when I'm using a weak weapon I can still use a higher ranked version of a madatory mod to get it to the same level as META weapons with low rank madatories, so I've been using weapons which I havn't used for literal years, since the powercreep left them behind.

[Walkampf]

Before anything else:

vor 20 Minuten schrieb Tyreaus:

certainly not without a good and clear roadmap.

I don't think a roadmap is needed. It's a slogan currently used in videogames, owever, Anthem and Fallout 76 showed in the most spectacular fashion that a Roadmap doesn't help anything.

 

But aside from that,, I pretty much agree with you.

Certain abilities whould be needed to be tweaked, but that problem whouldn't be new. This problem already exists. For example, take Saryn. Weapons are, even in the current state of madatory mods, absolutly no competition for her damage output.

And as I said, serration is only one example of things that need to be nerfed.

The difference between a mandatory mod and a Warframe ability is, that the mod is much more widely used than any single ability.

I just think that madatory mods are the best point to start a very large scale balance overhaul. I think it's better to clear up the big chunks first and then after the dust settles down work in the finer details.

And the same goes for Overkill weapons, these also exist. The Riven system was meant to close the gap betwenn those and unused weapons. Sure, it's nice that DE ties to level the playingfield by giving reasons to use lesser used weapons, but in the end, they failed at doing so. The very same kind of weapons which were META before the introduction of Rivens have been META after the introduction.

But I think there is only a limited amount of room to where you can buff anything up.

As for tuning the scaling, I don't think that's the real issue. I recently started a new account on my Switch and my TTK is in quite a good place. I think enemy scaling is done quite good up until around level 100. At this point you start to really consider dealing with scaling issues such as Armor and One-hits.

In my opinion, it whould be good to reduce the amount of players fighting enemies above lvl 100 by making the fight against lower level enemies much more interesting.

 

Just some examples from my personal experience, why I've come to this conclusion:

I've stopped using Primed mods entirely for over 2 years.

And I've recently started using duplicates of madatory mods, which are not Max rank.

- Simple fissure missions are actually fun again, because they provide an actual challenge and I can't  just auto-kill everything in my LoS.

- Companions are, at this point, actually worth having with you aside from the Kavaat that can grant you a loot-boost.

- I less Forma, since I'm using much less Mod capacity.

- I'm much more free in choosing my weapons, because when I'm using a weak weapon I can still use a higher ranked version of a madatory mod to get it to the same level as META weapons with low rank madatories, so I've been using weapons which I havn't used for literal years, since the powercreep left them behind.

[Tyreaus]

4 hours ago, Walkampf said:

I don't think a roadmap is needed. It's a slogan currently used in videogames, owever, Anthem and Fallout 76 showed in the most spectacular fashion that a Roadmap doesn't help anything.

Point I was making was more that DE does dev workshops, and we're talking about changing things without a dev workshop to reference, when the last time they tried to change the damage system, people weren't awfully happy about it. It doesn't mean a roadmap or roadmap-like outline magically makes things work, but I find it provides peace of mind when the concern is "are we sure they're doing it right?". At least as far as DE's developmental methodology goes, since we can, in theory at least, look at dev workshops and answer that question before they implement it, and we can trust they'll listen if it's catastrophically bad in principle (cf. Damage 3.0). Telling players what the plan is only really works if they'll listen to feedback, after all, and I'm not sure what Bethesda and BioWare were like regarding Anthem and Fallout 76.

As far as the mandatory mod stuff goes...it's great that you have that experience, but as I said, the main concern wasn't whether it's doable or beneficial at all—I think it's both—it's whether DE can do it right.

[peterc3]

15 hours ago, SolarDwagon said:

Warframe, as a game, needs to move away from the pure RNG concept. Relics were MEANT to do this, originally pitched as something that you could refine over time towards a specific reward, but we got the half-hearted system we have now. They still could BE that system-as an example, if at the end of mission, instead of taking an open relic, you could spend traces on a particular drop, and re-close the relic. Tracking that for every player would probably be a little excessive, but some similar system could surely be implemented. Similarly, bosses. If you run a boss 30, 40, 50 times and still can’t get that ONE part you need, there needs to be a system to trade parts in for that boss. Say 10, even 20 Rhino neuroptics can be traded in for a systems or chassis. Just put something in so that even the unluckiest players can see an end to their grind.

Why would I ever spend any money if I knew I could be guaranteed a specific drop?

Please point to where Relics were going to be able to have guaranteed part drops. They were pitched as infinitely better than sitting in the Void forever, just to hope the one drop out of RotC was the one you wanted.

[SolarDwagon]

7 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Why would I ever spend any money if I knew I could be guaranteed a specific drop?

Please point to where Relics were going to be able to have guaranteed part drops. They were pitched as infinitely better than sitting in the Void forever, just to hope the one drop out of RotC was the one you wanted.

The original discussion was that you could push the RNG towards the part you wanted over time, so if you didn't like the result you got a higher chance of the result you wanted next time.

And because who spends money on boss drops if RNG isn't completely screwing them anyway, in which case people are more likely to conclude the game is a scam and leave.

[GruntBlender]

I support an across the board nerf combined with level scaling change. The ehp of enemies rises exponentially while damage rises almost linearly, this makes specters and radiation procs, as well as some abilities, far less useful at higher levels. This also makes the ehp difference between low and high levels much larger, necessitating those high damage mods that make normal content trivial. 

So yes, compress the ehp of enemies and the damage range of our weapons. Make a 20% damage boost actually noticeable, instead of the 220% being mandatory.

I'd welcome a Dev workshop post on this that just asks for feedback on an idea like this to give DE some idea of what players think about it. Potentially test it in a new game mode with Simaris running these experiments to see how players react after trying it out.

[Talonflight]

I honestly think that the 'mandatory mods' should be integrated into the weapon itself as you rank it up.

As for the billions of mods out there, I think DE should probably take a sweeping pass and condense the list of mods. We have so many mods out there but so few of them are actually utilized, that it might be better to find a 'golden standard' of what you WANT the enemy difficulty to be, and nerf/buff mods and weapons accordingly in order to achieve that design. Multiplicative changes to weapons via mod stacking will break ANY balance attempt. Change is needed, badly.

[Avienas]

On 2019-11-14 at 3:52 AM, SolarDwagon said:

Yes, mandatory mods are definitely an issue. DE themselves have floated the idea of transferring many of these stats onto weapon levelling, or rolling them into weapons outright, but have yet to hit upon a way of removing these that works without severely harming the players, or at least that's my impression. But making many currently useless mods at least work for their intended purpose would help competition for the less mandatory slots.

They had no issue giving a massive middle finger when they redid the frock out of melee mods including the following:

• Change Blood Rush so it scales on BASE crit, not post-modified crit. Granted, people would likely still have worked with that broken value, but that pretty much creates part of the conundrum. Mods that are so ridiculously op they become norm meta abuse, despite the fact because they are op, the cost of them should be HIGH for platinum buys, especially since people can only really get this mod when acolytes show up, once a year. Meaning even compared to baro`kiteer, these things should be worth hundreds of plat just on rarity alone, but didnt stop people from crying for it absurdly cheap because they have no freaking understanding how rare the mod technically is.
• `Fixed` Condition overload by doubling the base dmg it provides, but fix it to a 3 stack. Which normally would sound much more useful for quicker damage ramp up potential, but since from what the changes also included, it changed it to work like pressure point, adding raw base damage bonus, instead of final-modifying the stats, which can be a serious impact when you account for other mod interactions.
• `Resolve` the spin to win meta to an extent by finally making maiming strike suppose to work with crit-focused builds, instead of basically letting any weapon be a abusive wanna-be apache `ground choppa`. Granted it just spawn more silly meta-like ideas that i now like to nickname as the DUNK`n Ground slamma & Empowered Lumberjack maneuver. Aka the use of repeatedly slamming the ground with a scythe zaw & tempo royale to constant proc that pull in Exodia effect and the ability of using Corrupt Charge & Killing Blow to do very strong heavy attacks repeatedly to proc absurd slash damage procs.

Honestly, the best thing about this is the fact it created a few more new ways to play with melee builds, especially to not rely on double stacking 2 particular mods that are for completely different purposes. In terms of warframes & guns, they need to honestly make plenty of mods into innate stats. Especially Barrel diffusion, Lethal Torrent, Split Chamber, etc. pretty much you can see i am pointing as multi-shot as a semi-meta stat that almost every build uses to pseudo higher status procs and pseudo-add extra damage when its only really your firing extra bullets, which should really mean your not really boosting the damage, just firing more shots to create that `extra damage bonus`, unless D.E. had the stat does a double effect of boosting both the damage of each shot and adding a chance to fire another (which would make it even more broken then maiming strike).

But granted, since they clearly want to introduce more half broken systems, waste a few weeks and over half a dozen hotfixes to do some attempt to skirt past just straight up gutting the broken parts and keeping the grind simple, clean and keep everything a part of the same system the entire thing is about, Well, i certainly feel like if Phantasy star online 2 also comes to PS4 alongside Switch, Xbox & PC in spring, i would not be amazed if plenty of frustrated players see PSO2 without knowing much about it and then drop any dedication they still have to warframe, especially if D.E. continues the train wreck of bad ideas that i am sure plenty are going to do the Fallout 76 comparison with Warframe, if things get worst.

Well, i still enjoy warframe to keep attention once new content rolls in, but i certainly do not want to do any grinding i already have burn out on and sitting on a huge stock of what loot i already hoarded from it.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Avienas

[SolarDwagon]

4 hours ago, Avienas said:

They had no issue giving a massive middle finger when they redid the frock out of melee mods including the following:

• Change Blood Rush so it scales on BASE crit, not post-modified crit. Granted, people would likely still have worked with that broken value, but that pretty much creates part of the conundrum. Mods that are so ridiculously op they become norm meta abuse, despite the fact because they are op, the cost of them should be HIGH for platinum buys, especially since people can only really get this mod when acolytes show up, once a year. Meaning even compared to baro`kiteer, these things should be worth hundreds of plat just on rarity alone, but didnt stop people from crying for it absurdly cheap because they have no freaking understanding how rare the mod technically is.
• `Fixed` Condition overload by doubling the base dmg it provides, but fix it to a 3 stack. Which normally would sound much more useful for quicker damage ramp up potential, but since from what the changes also included, it changed it to work like pressure point, adding raw base damage bonus, instead of final-modifying the stats, which can be a serious impact when you account for other mod interactions.
• `Resolve` the spin to win meta to an extent by finally making maiming strike suppose to work with crit-focused builds, instead of basically letting any weapon be a abusive wanna-be apache `ground choppa`. Granted it just spawn more silly meta-like ideas that i now like to nickname as the DUNK`n Ground slamma & Empowered Lumberjack maneuver. Aka the use of repeatedly slamming the ground with a scythe zaw & tempo royale to constant proc that pull in Exodia effect and the ability of using Corrupt Charge & Killing Blow to do very strong heavy attacks repeatedly to proc absurd slash damage procs.

Honestly, the best thing about this is the fact it created a few more new ways to play with melee builds, especially to not rely on double stacking 2 particular mods that are for completely different purposes. In terms of warframes & guns, they need to honestly make plenty of mods into innate stats. Especially Barrel diffusion, Lethal Torrent, Split Chamber, etc. pretty much you can see i am pointing as multi-shot as a semi-meta stat that almost every build uses to pseudo higher status procs and pseudo-add extra damage when its only really your firing extra bullets, which should really mean your not really boosting the damage, just firing more shots to create that `extra damage bonus`, unless D.E. had the stat does a double effect of boosting both the damage of each shot and adding a chance to fire another (which would make it even more broken then maiming strike).

But granted, since they clearly want to introduce more half broken systems, waste a few weeks and over half a dozen hotfixes to do some attempt to skirt past just straight up gutting the broken parts and keeping the grind simple, clean and keep everything a part of the same system the entire thing is about, Well, i certainly feel like if Phantasy star online 2 also comes to PS4 alongside Switch, Xbox & PC in spring, i would not be amazed if plenty of frustrated players see PSO2 without knowing much about it and then drop any dedication they still have to warframe, especially if D.E. continues the train wreck of bad ideas that i am sure plenty are going to do the Fallout 76 comparison with Warframe, if things get worst.

Well, i still enjoy warframe to keep attention once new content rolls in, but i certainly do not want to do any grinding i already have burn out on and sitting on a huge stock of what loot i already hoarded from it.

Not gonna lie, I have no idea what your points actually were, apart from "DE nerfed overperforming melee mods" which... duh?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

In regards to the RNG part.

Its a Free To Play video game. Of course item acquisition is going to be a grind.

[Avienas]

7 hours ago, SolarDwagon said:

Not gonna lie, I have no idea what your points actually were, apart from "DE nerfed overperforming melee mods" which... duh?

If you want the short hand version: Basically when they do something, it usually ticks off the playerbase regardless of what it ultimately brings. Plenty of people were complaining about Disruption for example, for silly reasons. Though i enjoy it when D.E. DOES make changes and `actively` does so, i still would like them to be actively making changes towards existing older content(not just small things like minor UI tweaks and including QoLs that feel like should of been present much sooner). Granted though...

Instead of spending most of that time having to re-tweak the content after its PC release, as if they spent most of the time making it and not much time on the testing grounds (and likely feedback from what i assume are players they have test it out but are contract signed to not talk about it to the public), I would assume there could of been plenty of bugs before its PC release, but still i would like to think D.E. could take an extra week or two, before releasing content, to make sure to minimize parts of content or lack of content in a major update with issues, so people do not get really ticked off when something like: Them dropping a content which is a huge multi-stage (not 2 or 3 like relic farming, im talking 5 or more), grind fest of multiple rng-sus factors, no mid-way rewards(bad pulls from relics do not count since those are consolation prizes, not side bonuses) and even if you finally take down the lich, you have not much power in controlling what weapon you get, plus to even get rid of the lich, you still have to go thru the entire process...

• Sure, people can trade liches with the latest hotfix, but since its locked to what i assume is clan only and not alliance, you need to rely on a large player base that hopefully can take your converted lich off of you or is generous enough to give you a specific weapon, especially if they are generous enough to NOT ask for a bunch of plat or rare mods for them, Since they decided to just make converted liches be something you can trade as a item at a trading post.
• Once the Lich hype dies down, its going to be a repeat of Prime set hunting, where people are going to have to hope they can find other active players to `assist` them in getting what they need or be prepared to waste huge amount of plat to hopefully get what they want. Too bad if its clan lock, you will likely have to get used to temporarily leaving your clan and joining a market`ers clan to use thar crimson branch to trade and likely dump 100-500 plat on what could be a trash kuva weapon.
• Oh did i forget to repeat the fact that a RELIC INVOLVEMENT is PRESENT? Granted, the selection of requiem mods is only about 8 of them out of 4 relics, so random running will not be as terrible plus all the kuva fissure nodes are likely condensed to a couple of nodes at a time, but if the mods are not trad-able(console player here so i don`t have all the details), then i am certain people are going to have quite a huge pain when they need a specific mod and they run into trouble when not many people are running specific relics as much, meaning your stuck relying on the random chance that randos also are running the same requiem relic as you and you all just happen to land on that specific silver for one of your rolls. Plus i am sure plenty of people in the public groups will run intact versions of the relics since they care little on burning traces to radiant them up.

 

Well anyway, this is why i wish D.E. would properly take the time to understand new game modes, need to be future-proofed once most people actively stop doing it. Whether its people get burnt out from doing kuva liches due to bad rng-sus and give zero care on the mastery or new weapons that is going to be the opticor vandal comparison for some on what i heard OR they just end up deciding to treat the content as non-existent till D.E. actually caves in and reworks the content, which might likely be several months, after the next major content update, till they get it in a decent enough shape where a person can 100% solo the content with little pseudo-demand for a full group.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Avienas

[SolarDwagon]

On 2019-11-17 at 3:42 AM, Avienas said:

If you want the short hand version: Basically when they do something, it usually ticks off the playerbase regardless of what it ultimately brings. Plenty of people were complaining about Disruption for example, for silly reasons. Though i enjoy it when D.E. DOES make changes and `actively` does so, i still would like them to be actively making changes towards existing older content(not just small things like minor UI tweaks and including QoLs that feel like should of been present much sooner). Granted though...

Instead of spending most of that time having to re-tweak the content after its PC release, as if they spent most of the time making it and not much time on the testing grounds (and likely feedback from what i assume are players they have test it out but are contract signed to not talk about it to the public), I would assume there could of been plenty of bugs before its PC release, but still i would like to think D.E. could take an extra week or two, before releasing content, to make sure to minimize parts of content or lack of content in a major update with issues, so people do not get really ticked off when something like: Them dropping a content which is a huge multi-stage (not 2 or 3 like relic farming, im talking 5 or more), grind fest of multiple rng-sus factors, no mid-way rewards(bad pulls from relics do not count since those are consolation prizes, not side bonuses) and even if you finally take down the lich, you have not much power in controlling what weapon you get, plus to even get rid of the lich, you still have to go thru the entire process...

• Sure, people can trade liches with the latest hotfix, but since its locked to what i assume is clan only and not alliance, you need to rely on a large player base that hopefully can take your converted lich off of you or is generous enough to give you a specific weapon, especially if they are generous enough to NOT ask for a bunch of plat or rare mods for them, Since they decided to just make converted liches be something you can trade as a item at a trading post.
• Once the Lich hype dies down, its going to be a repeat of Prime set hunting, where people are going to have to hope they can find other active players to `assist` them in getting what they need or be prepared to waste huge amount of plat to hopefully get what they want. Too bad if its clan lock, you will likely have to get used to temporarily leaving your clan and joining a market`ers clan to use thar crimson branch to trade and likely dump 100-500 plat on what could be a trash kuva weapon.
• Oh did i forget to repeat the fact that a RELIC INVOLVEMENT is PRESENT? Granted, the selection of requiem mods is only about 8 of them out of 4 relics, so random running will not be as terrible plus all the kuva fissure nodes are likely condensed to a couple of nodes at a time, but if the mods are not trad-able(console player here so i don`t have all the details), then i am certain people are going to have quite a huge pain when they need a specific mod and they run into trouble when not many people are running specific relics as much, meaning your stuck relying on the random chance that randos also are running the same requiem relic as you and you all just happen to land on that specific silver for one of your rolls. Plus i am sure plenty of people in the public groups will run intact versions of the relics since they care little on burning traces to radiant them up.

 

Well anyway, this is why i wish D.E. would properly take the time to understand new game modes, need to be future-proofed once most people actively stop doing it. Whether its people get burnt out from doing kuva liches due to bad rng-sus and give zero care on the mastery or new weapons that is going to be the opticor vandal comparison for some on what i heard OR they just end up deciding to treat the content as non-existent till D.E. actually caves in and reworks the content, which might likely be several months, after the next major content update, till they get it in a decent enough shape where a person can 100% solo the content with little pseudo-demand for a full group.

Once again I'm rather struggling to understand what point you're trying to make.
First up, as far as I'm aware liches aren't clan locked, it's just a clan room.

If you're buying a weapon you should be able to avoid trash weapons?

Relics and mods are both tradeable, and of course people are going to run normal versions in pub groups since you get hugely more relics than you need just from hunting liches? I'm currently sitting on 10 of each relic while having at least 1 charge of all current mods. Also, have you ever heard of radshares?

Lich hunting is.... only semi-cooperative, you can easily do it solo, so in that respect its not going to be any worse long term. Also, god forbid a cooperative game has.... cooperative content? If you want a single player game, why are you expecting an online multiplayer game  to cater to your wants?

Finally, everything you just brought up is to do with Kuva which... is not what this thread was about? This is about existing flaws.

 

And yes, of course item acquisition is not going to be easy in a free to play video game. The part that I think still needs work is where it can be literally endless.

[Avienas]

7 hours ago, SolarDwagon said:

Once again I'm rather struggling to understand what point you're trying to make.
First up, as far as I'm aware liches aren't clan locked, it's just a clan room.

That was kind of a old post WAY before i got it on console, so it was just recent that i found out it aint locked. Too bad Console did NOT get the 7th hotfix content, so it might as well be at this point.

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If you're buying a weapon you should be able to avoid trash weapons?

The issue is most people are going to want plat, for the `liches and mods`, you cant straight up trade the weapon. Your forced to always grind thru the lich every. fking. time.

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Relics and mods are both tradeable, and of course people are going to run normal versions in pub groups since you get hugely more relics than you need just from hunting liches? I'm currently sitting on 10 of each relic while having at least 1 charge of all current mods. Also, have you ever heard of radshares?

Relics and mods are tradable but again, most are going to want to buy them, namely the mods, because everything else might as well be garbage. You need 10 riven slivers to even make a single riven, 1200 kuva can easily be gotten from a single flood or 2 siphons (which you are going to be farming those anyway for relics as option A anyway!). Plus its way easier to make use of how syndicate point gain works to get multiple weapon exilus unlockers, which are going to take a while to make and eat forma to even make to begin with. Which you kind of want a stock of forma to deal with things like grinding the lich weapons.

When the content actually dropped on console, i focused on getting grendel the fk outta the way by kidnapping 3 of my alliance & clan members, covered all 3 keys since i had plenty of vitus after the update(and i mean ALOT), plus get that kavat. Then for the rest of the night and a entire day, i farmed nothing but relics, but sadly thats a bit of a burn out so i only got around 30 relics between all of them, try to remember that console tends to be a bit more load issue`some plus apparently D.E. didnt squash all the bugs, Cause the freaking siphons can be stuck in the floor so you cant even see the tendrils at times.

Also, Rad sharing only works when people have MANY ccopies of one relic, usually to chase after one item. Your going to want multiple copies of every mod and still get more later to cover as many weapons as possible and also chase after higher ver duplicates of the ones you want. The amount of `end-grind` is way worst then it was to just chase after a freaking simple prime set. Too bad most people don`t understand you should be bringing QUANTITY of goods, Which basically results in constantly getting new people. Plus all it takes is getting 3 nodes being riven slivers or kuva and the other being NOT R.Mod. Had plenty rage quit yesterday when i got to phase 2 of my plan to work on opening the relics, only got 5 of the 8 mods i wanted, though some ended up with 3-5 duplicates and a few i have yet to get a 2nd duplicate.

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Lich hunting is.... only semi-cooperative, you can easily do it solo, so in that respect its not going to be any worse long term. Also, god forbid a cooperative game has.... cooperative content? If you want a single player game, why are you expecting an online multiplayer game  to cater to your wants?

When we are talking about Phase 3, Actually hunting the lich(1 being to get the relics and 2 being to get the mods), thats when it can be solo. But you kind of want a full party for the Relic portion, Cause of that fked-ways designed relic system. Plus throw in the fact while opening relics, Kuva Fortress is a fking travesty of a map to navigate, meaning its a pain in the rear to get to reactants other players have dropped, unlike normal fissure maps where most allow some lee-way to get around, throw in the fact its only Rescue and Survival, then its going to be tiresome to work with those semi-dark corridors, difficulty to sometimes confirm if a enemy is corrupt or not, since using map nuking options are usually a good way to screw up getting reactants.

Rescue might get the pass here for the reactant obtaining portion, but i can definitely say no one enjoys doing the Kuva Fortress Rescue mission, since you are kind of forced to go thru a vary rush-some pathway with the alarms likely active before you even reach the `middle jail area` and you better be bringing ciphers or have fingers who can do god-like hacking, especially if you have yet to memorize the pathways on kuva fort rescue, which can lead to barely any time level to rescue the target.

Plus i do not expect a single player game, i expect if a game relies heavily on online gameplay, there better be a useful reason to have co-op, not a poorly optimized design where one is punished on what could be normally better designs to handle content, such as a smaller party size(like with personal friends) or even soloing when one can be much more efficient. Relic system forces you to have a full party or suffer bad rates to even get goods, If it was only the amount of void traces we got that was affected by party size, While the relic system always had a static 3 rolls regardless of our party comp and we did not have to rely on other people`s relics, meaning rad sharing would not have to be a FORCED TACTIC for players, to maximize loot odds. Then i could be more focused on other tedious parts of the gameplay instead of worrying about things like a party member leaving mid-way even when we agree to a long run, but turns out they lied and only brought one relic to the rad share party.

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Finally, everything you just brought up is to do with Kuva which... is not what this thread was about? This is about existing flaws.

And yes, of course item acquisition is not going to be easy in a free to play video game. The part that I think still needs work is where it can be literally endless.

Plus trust me, Now that i got to experience the Kuva Lich system on console, It has plenty of flaws that it makes such a no-wonder why D.E. hasnt been attacked by someone at an interview on creating a multi stage travesty of a system. Some people are likely tolerant on it to have good experience on it, but its likely cause i have done smaller grinds just to earn platinum that i can see how much of a mess its going to be later on.

People are already basically wanting 5-20 plat for particular mods on the console`s market chat just to give a simple sign that some do not want to deal with farming the mods themselves. Which it might be not an issue if one were to get thar lich and figure what 3 particular mods they need to kill them, But then you have to deal with the Kuva Lich tax every time they are on a planet with a siphon your farming or if you take the thrall approach. Thar or you could shell out plat to buy the things from the market place, Which does a good load of scummy to sell consumable goods for a rather chunky amount of plat. Even if that was NOT their intent, its basically the mod drop chance booster fiasco again, where even if they `fixed` looter frames, then release a booster around the same time as coincidence, plenty would see that as D.E. trying to pull a scummy triple A game company maneuver with that `coincidence`.

Plus again, the system is a combination of Prime set hunting, semi-acolyte hunting and riven mod opening, without the ability to cycle the riven mod. Plus again, your gated from being able to get rid of the thing till you fully complete it, regardless of what the lich has. Plus i certainly do not want to be forking huge amounts of plat constantly to chase after specific weapons or even high value copies of them as the plan B to bypass alot of the issues, on a repeated basis, which sadly i am still going to need to farm the mods just to take them down, Not even counting when i need to use the same mods repeatedly to do such a job, since i have no idea what the kill word mods are till i shank thru the lich`s crew at light-speed or try to jury rig attempts against the lich itself and enjoy watching the lich kill me and get stronger half a dozen to a dozen times.

Even if D.E. intended this to be a very long-lasting system, Most are likely going to quit it like conclave and rather rely on buying the liches and mods if they desperately want that mastery, so they can get done with it, Just like how i stopped doing sorties entirely and next to never chase riven mods since those become tiresome`ly tedious to do every day after doing it for years and most of the goods i already have in the tens of thousands and i already have rivens of all the good stuff i like using.

Anyway could poke at a few more things like how its going to get harder to even go thru kuva liches as more people stop wanting to do it and most likely will give zero fks to pay more plat for kuva liches & R.mods due to the lack of supply that no one likely cares to check, leading to even the ones wanting to sell the goods to also dry out. But then i might be getting way too nutty on rambling the flaws that i have not gotten even to phase 3 of the kuva liches, since i still want a nice stock of mods, before i get to enjoy the pains of getting duplicate weapons repeatedly or trash version of weapons if any of them suit my fancy but i keep getting low % rolls.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Avienas