Stop the powercreep, please.

[Raikh]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Xzorn:

 

That's not exactly accurate. Sacrificial Steel was used for pure physical Bleed builds. The alternates being Cold duration exploit and Lasting Sting. All of which compete or beat Viral + Slash in Bleed DPS though obviously the latter have a longer wind up. Haven't done the new math yet but probably still end up running both.

I agree we need content to oppose our power or better yet a core system that allows all current and previous content to do that.

In most games this is just enemy Level but Warframe is broken so it would require a bit more. Warframe lacks a sturdy foundation to build on. Always has. DE needs to stop simply stacking band-aid fixes and stand alone content to the game and work on the backbone which in turn will spread to current and future additions.

Pre Update 26 it was plausible to use crit chance mods as they were multiplicative with Blood Rush which made thme worth using in combination in certain setups.

However after Update 26 that is no longer the case. Blood Rush provides 660% crit chance and if you use Helios Deconstructor with 3 Gladiator mods you cna get an additonal 330%.
AFter 660-990% crit chance another 88-110% on top don't do anything significant that would give them a slot.

Just as an example. WIth a 4x combo multiplier before the patch you also had 660% crit chance on Blood Rush. Lets say you have a 25%  base crit chance weapon. AT 88% for sac steel you get an additonal 22% crit chance putting you at 47% crit chance. The 47% were multiplied with Blood Rush which then put you at 357.2% crit chance. Wihout sac steel you would've been at 190% so we see quite a huge increase of critcal chance totalling 167.2%.

Now after the patch its additive so without sac steel we still sit at 190% CC with a x12 multiplier, but only at 212% with a 88% sac steel assuming the same 25% base crit. While depending very muhc on crit dmg this is likely less than a 10% total dmg increase and its just no noticeable and plenty other mods perform better than that.
Even with the buff to 220% now we only go from 190% to 245% which is still vastly worse than before and likely still weaker than some other options. And it only gets worse if you use gladiator mods in any capacity.

The setbonus also doesn't drastically change the outcome, especially since the CO changes make sac pressure even less attractive than it already was.

With the buffs we might see some niche application for sac steel but I don't see it making the cut for almost everything that uses blood rush.

[Xzorn]

19 minutes ago, Raikh said:

-snip-

 

Ugh yea sorry. I might have wasted a lot of typing there. I missed the "after update 26 part" even having quoted it. =D

Apparently I'm too tired for reading. I was completely talking pre melee 3.0. I have no idea now. Like I mentioned have to run numbers again but I also have to remake all my Bleed Zaws since they don't need as much base status thanks to Weeping Wounds. 14% base getting 95% at 12x with Drifting Contact if I recall.

[GruntBlender]

7 hours ago, Raikh said:

With the buffs we might see some niche application for sac steel

Heavy attack builds come to mind. Sacrificial Steel gets you +550% crit chance on heavy attack without needing a high combo. Throw in life strike instead of healing return and heavy windup speed for infinite healing without much status. Initial combo count means you don't need combo duration and you can spam heavy attack.

The buffed crit mods aren't meant to compete with blood rush for pure crit, they're meant to allow more diverse ways of making a viable build, which they do.

[Raikh]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Xzorn:

 

Ugh yea sorry. I might have wasted a lot of typing there. I missed the "after update 26 part" even having quoted it. =D

Apparently I'm too tired for reading. I was completely talking pre melee 3.0. I have no idea now. Like I mentioned have to run numbers again but I also have to remake all my Bleed Zaws since they don't need as much base status thanks to Weeping Wounds. 14% base getting 95% at 12x with Drifting Contact if I recall.

Hehe, happens. You basically have to redo all your Zaws anyway. They changed up the values and now the fastest grips and links are always the highest dps options. Peye and Seekalla as grips are significantly ahead of all other grips as the attack speed values are the same but the dmg differences between the parts has shrunk immensely.

14% gets you to 81.2% with drifting and WW. 2x dual status + Drifting + WW gets you to 98% but thats then no pure bleed anymore. 25/14 splits are still probably the best Zaws now. Since the patch there are jsut so many better options for high status weapons and since you really really want a hybrid build as its so clearly the strongest option. Sacrificing high base status and covering with WW is the only way to make a Zaw have a place unless they buff base status and crit for them as so many wepaons just outclass them now. Generally for most weapons they are just not worth it anymore. Orthos P spits on every zaw polearm you could build. Dohkram no longer has a range advantage and Gram P has just all the crit and all the status.

Machetes work maybe, as we don't have a high crit machete. Although Machete Wraith in general has become pretty good. Some become options with a riven like Nikanas as Nikana P has a 0.5 disposition but its looking pretty bleak for Zaws right now.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb GruntBlender:

Heavy attack builds come to mind. Sacrificial Steel gets you +550% crit chance on heavy attack without needing a high combo. Throw in life strike instead of healing return and heavy windup speed for infinite healing without much status. Initial combo count means you don't need combo duration and you can spam heavy attack.

The buffed crit mods aren't meant to compete with blood rush for pure crit, they're meant to allow more diverse ways of making a viable build, which they do.

Thats certainly the most obvious application. I'm still not quite convinced that those builds are THAT good in the grand scheme of things though. Especially heavies without forced slash procs are just not good as armor completely wrecks them. Heavies with just 2-3x combo are also not so immensely powerful. You can rip through Simulacrum with those attacks for sure but so can you with normal attacks quite easily.

Most importantly however you can run Zenurik with Inner might which gives you 60% combo efficiency and then run corrosoive or radiation via focus energy which gives another 40% which makes you reach the 90% cap. With that you can run a full hybrid melee build while being capable to frequently use x12 heavies on specific heavy units without gimping your normal melee damage to do so.

I certainly welcome the option to run full heavy attack builds. Will just have to see if they are truly worth it in the long run or just a little fun on the side.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Raikh

[GruntBlender]

I've been enjoying my heliocor yeetstick, though I need to put more work into it and I don't really run endurance. What I like most is that the last big update allowed me to use more weapons in more ways, even if I'm sacrificing a bit of DPS. 

Then again, I'm trying to make a viable Viper build, so maybe it's not worth listening to me at all. I'm playing the game to have fun, in whatever way I can squeeze fun out of it. Mashing E for 2+ hours doesn't qualify in my book. 

[Twilight-Knight]

What is this about ? Sarcram ?

On 2019-11-15 at 10:07 AM, el_chanis said:

If Blood Rush was an issue in melee, NERF IT. Buffing already strong mods makes no sense. We are WAY TOO STRONG. Sorties BOSSES last about 2-3 seconds (minus invul phases). Eidolons can be one-shoted. Liches are a joke full of BS mechanics.

 

There is nothing in the game that trully represents a challenge for us. We deal insane damage, we have way too many revives per mission, and, save for a few exceptions (mostly corpus heavy units), enemies can barely interact with us. The only missions i have ever failed in the last 3 years were sortie rescue/spy missions where someone screws it at hacking. Exterminate, Survival, Defense, Mobile Defense, Sabotage, Hijack, Interception, even Disruption,  are all a walk in the park. I have never, EVER, in the last 3 years, went into one of those missions thinking "it will be hard, think we can fail this". The only somewhat "difficult" mission is Defection, because of the absurd mechanic of the mission.

I remember how hard, challenging and rewarding the game was when sorties first came out. Now sorties are a chore, Please DE, bring back the difficulty. Give us the FEAR to loose.

1st - Blood Rush ? I thought what you did but you seem doesn't really playing the game . Look at their ... GRAM prime or paracesis .... Blood rush was actually can only be use for weapon have certain crit chance with common crit dmg. It's not the Mod's fault that they made super weapon, it's the weapon's power and the convinient of warframe's ability is what corrupt the game. And what about Venka Prime, it's surely a crit fatal weapon PvE but it's range is only for mastery so it's balance. Bloodrush was never meant for all weapon.

2nd - You dealt insane dmg with their * New primes * sure sure as I said, they making weapon powerful with convenient warframesthat  corrupt the game and players. what kind of Rank of 20 above still die in sortie ?. Revives 2 much, sure that one is right.

       - But about missions, like spy. Funny because it's interesting that it was made for all warframe and it's have to be played like real ninja. That is 1 of few things I give my respect to whoever made it, it taught me that I can use 1 warframe with 1 weapon only and 1 companion for most of sortie ( straight 1 sequence )

3rd - Now the game not only not hard enough but stupid, like you win without making real fight and you die in some stupid way, like forced to DIE. Rewards is over flows that you can't even spent them all.

                                                                                                                         There is no more FEAR, just ABSURD.

[Monolake]

We just need more challanges and stronger enemies to figtht.

But DE ignores veterans' pleas  and cant give us even few missions with challenge right away, even arbitrations start at low levels and drag for 40 min till difficulty kicks in. And then of course you have to wait for several hours for arby survival to even becomes available to play...   Its like they dont want us to play at all.  They sure know by now that its very boring for overpowered players to do same trivial missions vs pushover enemies.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Monolake

[Uthael]

Enemies rankup the fastest in Index. And even a prodman run netting you 15M in credits can be "cheesed".
Trivia: They made tests with lvl 9999 (max possible) corpus drones (immune to CL+Ash). Players trivialized that, too.
And when you make strong enemies immune to CC and abilities, they're "lazy mechanics" and "just bullet sponges". Although Invulnerability phases are even worse.

Try gathering some people to make a few Conclave runs. After 2-3 runs, you'll either have the best single build or hopefully a rock-paper-scissors scenario.
Still, Conclave could be the middle ground with ability limitations, enemy intelligence and their strength. If you want a PvE version, it's going to be trivialized within a week.

The problem here is: AI is dumb. But if you make it smart, how do you let plebs (90% of us) have fun?

So, tell me... Suggest, discuss... How do you make endgame fun for munchkins in Warframe?

_{Edit: It's true about Gram Prime. In the same way, I blame Rubico Prime for making Vectis Prime totally inferior in every situation. ... But then again... Acceltra/Fulmin.}
Edit2: Getting the full "wanted" level in Orb Vallis gives some interesting enemies. Can we get those in longer Index runs?

Edited November 18, 2019 by Uthael

[Prosodical]

On 2019-11-14 at 7:07 PM, el_chanis said:

There is nothing in the game that trully represents a challenge for us.

Um. Hi. Munchkin here. I have an idea. So, I'm seeing a lot of math and numbers. I wonder if there's another way to think about it.

Many action games out there are fun and challenging without even employing RPG mechanics. Maybe we can take a page?

For example, the first place I'd start changing is: what we're fighting.

The vast majority of enemies spawn, beeline for the objective, and run along the ground toward the nearest objective. If they see somethin, they shoot it. Sometimes take cover. This isn't a very challenging scenario. Not much can make it challenging, except maybe, more numbers. Well, we've had more numbers. And people have complained about the challenge here for ages.

What if we rethink that pattern?

What if all those grineer break off, and form a firing line in front of the Evac point. We round the corner, bullet jumping along, when you're staring at three Nox and a F***load of Troopers. They've barricaded the evac point. Gotta go through em. It IS their ship. They should know where our drop ships could breach. Lotus doesn't say a word. We don't know what's ahead.

I want to see Grineer manics spawn unexpectedly and start hunting players. Not the objective. Us. They throw smoke bombs to block our vision and remove health bars from the UI. I want them throwing nets over someone from behind and dragging them off, requiring a teammate to save them. 

I want to see infested climbing along the ceiling like freaking Xenomorphs. Dozens of them spraying out like they're consuming the infrastructure, not charging forth on the ground like a bunch of rookie soldiers. 

I wan't some cybered up corpus pumping those robo legs and bullet jumping around like we do. Doesn't have to be at a frame's speed as that might just make him too hard to hit. 

Just some initial ideas. The POINT I'm trying to make is, if our enemy is unpredictable, lethal, and has an advantage over us in some small way, we will begin to feel fear. By now, the Tau system knows abundantly well what Tenno are capable of. they should start rolling out the big guns, and I'm not sure they'll be shooting numbers at us.  

This is not the easy answer to the question of difficulty. By no means. It would entail an AI upheaval, a lot of animation work, and maybe some changes to levels. 

Does that mean we should give up on it? I say no.

[No1NParticular31]

On 2019-11-14 at 9:07 PM, el_chanis said:

If Blood Rush was an issue in melee, NERF IT. Buffing already strong mods makes no sense. We are WAY TOO STRONG. Sorties BOSSES last about 2-3 seconds (minus invul phases). Eidolons can be one-shoted. Liches are a joke full of BS mechanics.

 

There is nothing in the game that trully represents a challenge for us. We deal insane damage, we have way too many revives per mission, and, save for a few exceptions (mostly corpus heavy units), enemies can barely interact with us. The only missions i have ever failed in the last 3 years were sortie rescue/spy missions where someone screws it at hacking. Exterminate, Survival, Defense, Mobile Defense, Sabotage, Hijack, Interception, even Disruption,  are all a walk in the park. I have never, EVER, in the last 3 years, went into one of those missions thinking "it will be hard, think we can fail this". The only somewhat "difficult" mission is Defection, because of the absurd mechanic of the mission.

I remember how hard, challenging and rewarding the game was when sorties first came out. Now sorties are a chore, Please DE, bring back the difficulty. Give us the FEAR to loose.

I know it's old, and no where near as fast paced. If you want a REAL challenge might I recommend EverQuest. Insane difficulty especially as you level up, death = Exp loss including whole levels if you die too much, and challenge getting your stuff back when you are dead. It was is still is probably one of the most challenging and punishing games ever made. I played it for more than 10 years and EVERYTHING since has been a cake walk. I am not trying to be funny or condescending, but offering a real challenge if you think you can handle the punishment.

[GruntBlender]

2 hours ago, Prosodical said:

We round the corner, bullet jumping along, when you're staring at three Nox and a F***load of Troopers. They've barricaded the evac point. Gotta go through em.

Rhino charge, Hydroid tidal surge, Gauss mach rush, Wukong cloud walker, etc. I don't mean to be derisive, but there's no challenge in the game we couldn't easily cheese, unless it's made frustratingly hard with CC/status immunity.

 

2 hours ago, Prosodical said:

I want to see infested climbing along the ceiling like freaking Xenomorphs.

There are already problems with AI pathing, I don't think DE can do this to a level that will satisfy you.

 

I like where you're coming from, and I agree, but it's very difficult to create mechanics that will be challenging to our overpowered frames and abilities. And AI can be very hard to program. One way might be to look at enemies like shield lancers for inspiration, having individual enemies that have interesting mechanics. That's why Bursas are fun, you have to flank them.

[Prosodical]

12 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

Rhino charge, Hydroid tidal surge, Gauss mach rush, Wukong cloud walker, etc

It sounds like I didn't paint a vivid enough picture with my example. A situation where enemies are, both, spread out, and concentrated on a singular firing area could not be solved by any one of these abilities. Rather, a team working cooperatively. All these abilities at once. Not just one Saryn. Would it be perfect? of course not, but it would be different. I think introducing any possibility of failure, which the person starting this thread expressed a grievance about, would be positive.

We don't face challenging situations at this juncture in WF. Covering different fields of fire is something we have, to an extent, as with [Mobile]Defense and Excavation. More often than not, I just see individual players jumping between defensive positions like a buncha firefighters, without much thought or strategy. Our shields regenerate for a reason, and we have more than enough ways to regain health. How bout a situation that forces us to fall back, and think? 

12 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

There are already problems with AI pathing, I don't think DE can do this to a level that will satisfy you.

What I'm suggesting will be hard, yes. I'd rather be optimistic. As far as satisfying me, I'm also thinking of all the other people I've heard asking for more difficulty. This isn't just about me.

 

12 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

I like where you're coming from, and I agree, but it's very difficult to create mechanics that will be challenging to our overpowered frames and abilities.

Thank you for saying so. For what it's worth, I don't think we need to kill the power fantasy to create difficulty. I can think of a few open world games that catered to making players feel powerful, that took real effort to conquer. Games that had nowhere near the personality and style of WF. I don't know if this vision I'm trying to communicate is feasible in the WF world, or if it'll be another game in the future. I imagine on the day WF shuts down (however far away that may be), a ton of new developers will spring up, pitching various inspirations for new spin-offs. One can hope.

[Prosodical]

14 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

One way might be to look at enemies like shield lancers for inspiration, having individual enemies that have interesting mechanics. That's why Bursas are fun, you have to flank them.

I like this idea. This sounds quite feasible. Nevermind having to kill dozens of grineer lancers. Maybe a couple lancers, but other enemies all with different mechanics. Maybe some enemies are immune to melee, maybe some immune to automatic weapons. Maybe some will drain the life off an another grineer and use it to heal themselves. Maybe a russian doll-style infested wherein you kill the bigger one, spawning a smaller one, and so on. 

Perhaps I needn't think so blockbuster-movie about it.

I think innovative enemy types have potential. Rather than, Grineer Lancers and Elite Grineer Lancers (just reskinned nonsense), we keep the basic lancers and add in something new. 

[GruntBlender]

5 hours ago, Prosodical said:

A situation where enemies are, both, spread out, and concentrated on a singular firing area could not be solved by any one of these abilities.

I literally float past half a level as Wukong's unstoppable invincible fart. Void capture mission in 45 seconds. I think you underestimate the abilities. 

 

5 hours ago, Prosodical said:

I'm also thinking of all the other people I've heard asking for more difficulty. This isn't just about me.

I didn't intend to make it sound so pointed. I meant to say "satisfactory to the majority of players". I agree with you, as I also want challenge, and not in the way the Wolf was.

 

3 hours ago, Prosodical said:

I think innovative enemy types have potential. Rather than, Grineer Lancers and Elite Grineer Lancers (just reskinned nonsense), we keep the basic lancers and add in something new. 

I like the new undying flayers, they just keep coming back until you destroy their spawn pod. I liked the zealoids that traveled in a group and you had to down all 3 at once to kill them. One was damage immune until you down one of the other two. I like the raknoids, both those with two phases separated by immobile invulnerability, and the ones gaining overshields and teleporting away to snipe you when damaged enough. 

One of the problems with interesting enemies though is the limitation of the tile system. Levels are made of tiles connected by doors, so enemies will either be stuck on a tile and easy to avoid, or have to fit through doors/vents/hallways like everyone else. This is where tiles with unmoving objectives can shine, forcing us to deal with unusual enemies that don't fit through doors.

[GrimSinner]

On 2019-11-14 at 9:07 PM, el_chanis said:

If Blood Rush was an issue in melee, NERF IT. Buffing already strong mods makes no sense. We are WAY TOO STRONG. Sorties BOSSES last about 2-3 seconds (minus invul phases). Eidolons can be one-shoted. Liches are a joke full of BS mechanics.

 

There is nothing in the game that trully represents a challenge for us. We deal insane damage, we have way too many revives per mission, and, save for a few exceptions (mostly corpus heavy units), enemies can barely interact with us. The only missions i have ever failed in the last 3 years were sortie rescue/spy missions where someone screws it at hacking. Exterminate, Survival, Defense, Mobile Defense, Sabotage, Hijack, Interception, even Disruption,  are all a walk in the park. I have never, EVER, in the last 3 years, went into one of those missions thinking "it will be hard, think we can fail this". The only somewhat "difficult" mission is Defection, because of the absurd mechanic of the mission.

I remember how hard, challenging and rewarding the game was when sorties first came out. Now sorties are a chore, Please DE, bring back the difficulty. Give us the FEAR to loose.

We?  Don't speak for me.  Maybe you should nerf yourself.  Take off your mods and go run some sorties and fight some bosses.  

[Prosodical]

On 2019-11-18 at 8:10 PM, GruntBlender said:

I literally float past half a level as Wukong's unstoppable invincible fart. Void capture mission in 45 seconds. I think you underestimate the abilities.

My vision was to remove this option. Hence "blockaded the evac point." I imagine a metal barrier wall, with a door that unlocks once the enemies are dead. Or perhaps a giant version of the "blunt" wall the grineer often deploy. Forcing players to either focus on killing the enemies, or focus firing the blunt to remove it. This could shift the objective, as when Lotus suddenly says, "Change of plans. Leave nothing alive." I want them to have two snipers across the room, painting us with lasers. Maybe one of us needs to break off, take em out? Ghoul chargers bum rush our faces, while the Nox grease us down. Hail of lancer fire. I'd be surprised nobody goes down in that situation if it was at maybe level 60-70. I want to see some enemy coordination! 

On 2019-11-18 at 8:10 PM, GruntBlender said:

One of the problems with interesting enemies though is the limitation of the tile system. Levels are made of tiles connected by doors, so enemies will either be stuck on a tile and easy to avoid, or have to fit through doors/vents/hallways like everyone else.

I agree we'd need enemies able to pass through hallway tiles. You raise another point though. There could be tile-focused mini-bosses. I hope grineer/infested enemy types are in the works to match the newest Corpus ones. 

 

On 2019-11-18 at 8:10 PM, GruntBlender said:

I didn't intend to make it sound so pointed. I meant to say "satisfactory to the majority of players". I agree with you, as I also want challenge, and not in the way the Wolf was.

Thank you for clarifying. And again I agree. Wolf was an interesting experience to have once or twice, but there were times he took us 47 minutes(!) to kill. It was certainly different from the faceroll my team normally encountered, but the fight itself was uninteresting. We'd shoot him. Then shoot him some more. Maybe pause and shoot a random unit nearby, revive someone, then shoot at him some more. Not a lot of interaction, or thought happening. The only answer to Wolf is, "MOAR SHOOTZ." That's not what I imagine when I think of difficulty. Wolf is a great example of what is NOT working with WF's current version of difficulty; we just throw math at the enemies, then discuss math amongst ourselves until we find a way to beat it efficiently. To me, nothing sounds more boring. I recognize that some people enjoy mathing through the game. I wonder how wed strike a balance.

I'm glad someone agrees there could be other ways to add difficulty!

Edited November 22, 2019 by Prosodical

[Andele3025]

On 2019-11-16 at 2:57 AM, Xzorn said:

 The alternates being Cold duration exploit

Calling a mechanic of a status proc that got accidentally nerfed during a bugfix, much like ivara navigator no longer pausing projectiles, a exploid is flat out dumb.

[Xzorn]

26 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Calling a mechanic of a status proc that got accidentally nerfed during a bugfix, much like ivara navigator no longer pausing projectiles, a exploid is flat out dumb.

 

Huh? Cold Status increasing the Duration of non-animation effects isn't intended. Cold status slows animation speed not time itself.

Not sure about that Ivara example but her Cloak Arrow working on Cryopods was not intended while her Noise Arrow was stated by DE years ago. It just took them years to fix it. Pretty normal sadly. DE has a nasty habit of allowing unintended things settle so if it becomes a problem it's unintended but if it's not then it's a feature. aka Speedva.

[KiroTheTraveler]

I want them to focus on enemy A.I 

[BlindStalker]

15 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Not sure about that Ivara example

For reference Xzorn, what Andele3025 is referring to about Ivara's navigator is that it used to "override" or "suspend" the 'self-destruct timer' of any given flying explosive projectile once it was under navigator's control.

Thrown explosives or energy projectiles, say Talons or the Tonkor as examples. If you fired the Tonkor's grenade in the open air (not hitting any surface/enemy) then the grenade projectile would fly for roughly around 11 seconds before it would automatically self-detonate (assuming that it didn't hit any surface/enemy as well). Similarly, a thrown Talons bomb has a projectile flight time of roughly 8 seconds before it finally self-detonates (again, assuming that it didn't attach itself to any surface or enemy before the 8 second time limit). If you took control of these types of explosive projectiles with Ivara's navigator, it would basically 'suspend/override' that self-detonate timer and you could fly it around/buff it for as long as you had energy left in Ivara's energy pool. This effect could apply to any type of energy/explosive projectile while under the effects of navigator. 

So what type of shenanigans/fun exotic builds could you formerly get up to with Ivara's navigator?

Spoiler

Something like this as example:

Ivara's navigator could override the Arca Plasmor's self-destruct time limit on the projectile and fly/buff for as long as you had energy left in Ivara's energy pool.  This was a popular setup with navigator at the time.

DE eventually broke it. Technically speaking, they never actually mentioned anything in the patch notes about this, so we can only assume they bugged navigator (like usual). This bug first appeared on navigator almost 2 years ago now.

PS - another example was the Zenistar disc. Ivara's navigator could override the 45 second time limit on disc, thus you could keep flying it around and it wouldn't be forced returned until you let control of it from navigator. But alas, rip zenistar.

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by BlindStalker

[Xzorn]

16 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

For reference Xzorn, what Andele3025 is referring to about Ivara's navigator is that it used to "override" or "suspend" the 'self-destruct timer' of any given flying explosive projectile once it was under navigator's control.

 

Ah yea, I remember getting stuck using Navigator on Sonicor and bouncing endlessly off walls.
That's still Timer Vs Range override but I get what's going on now.

[Tyreaus]

On 2019-11-17 at 4:24 PM, Uthael said:

So, tell me... Suggest, discuss... How do you make endgame fun for munchkins in Warframe?

I would say, personally: add tangental threats, or just more threats in general, to the mission objective.

The game is largely marketed on a power fantasy where we can wipe through legions of enemies. It's really difficult (not impossible, but difficult) to mesh that with hard enemies. Make them too strong, the power fantasy dissipates. Make them too weak and they're not difficult at all. And the moment new weapons get introduced—new weapons that tend to have to be bigger and better than their predecessors, even by little bits at a time—that balance gets shifted. We can already see that throughout Warframe, from the mods that add 15% status chance to Sorties being kind of a cakewalk despite once being the end game thing to do.

On the other hand, if Lotus's line of "We can't let the target know we're here, capture them quickly" held a lot more weight to it, or if we had to do more stealth through Spy missions or else alarms would start the data destruction sequence if we don't get to a control panel straight away, it stops being a direct contest of numbers. At that point, players could pretty much be as destructively powerful as they want to be. They still have to be careful not to botch the mission.

I think that's kind of why Disruption works as well as it does (not that it's perfect, albeit). Yes, there are scaling enemies that make the mission more difficult as time goes on. But rather than just make the enemies harder, it creates more of an onus on players to find the Demolyst sooner and sooner, or else the team's DPS won't be able to take it down in time. The threat of the other enemies is almost ancillary. I wager you could make only the Demolyst scale in health and you'd have largely similar fanfare for the mode.

[JohnMorte]

Warframe is a power fantasy of Space Ninjas in Space™. A very large portion of the game would be very turned off from playing the game if you had to struggle to eliminate a level 1 grunt the same way you would struggle to kill level 150 Vay Hek.

Buff the trash tier weapons. Don't nerf anything.

[GruntBlender]

7 minutes ago, JohnMorte said:

Warframe is a power fantasy of Space Ninjas in Space™. A very large portion of the game would be very turned off from playing the game if you had to struggle to eliminate a level 1 grunt the same way you would struggle to kill level 150 Vay Hek.

Buff the trash tier weapons. Don't nerf anything.

How would you feel if weapon damage was tripled but Serration was lowered to something like 20% to compensate?

[Xzorn]

13 minutes ago, JohnMorte said:

Warframe is a power fantasy of Space Tanks in Space™.

Fixed that for ya. =D