Stop the powercreep, please.

[Swagernator22663]

Will you cry if they dont ? 

[Uthael]

The amount of crying in proportion to the offered solutions is already

[Oreades]

The problem there is that without some incentive for the player, there is little to no reason to engage with the content and giving the player more power is one of the easiest ways to incentivize them to imbibe. 

The problem isn't the "power creep" per say because that is just normal progression, the problem is that DE hasn't kept up with the other end of that equation. Which is presenting content that necessitates the additional power. 

On 2019-11-14 at 10:07 PM, el_chanis said:

Give us the FEAR to loose.

For the umpteen billionth time...... that fear is literally yours to take..... 

Hell all the "give us challenge" kiddies have been told for months "just don't overspec your builds" or flat out "take your heccin mods off" and the reply has been an almost unanimous "we shouldn't have to lift a finger to experience challenge". Flash forward to the Grendel "challenges" that did literally nothing but take off players mods and lock you out of the gear wheel/operator.... and the response has essentially been "erhmahgurd best thing since sliced toast~". 

Ya crumbums could have been doing that on your own and experiencing the "challenge" that ya say you crave for heccin forever if you had just the slightest iota of self control...... Seems to me that the truth still stands, in a game that lets you dial in your difficulty, if you want a challenge..... maybe stop CHOOSING easy mode? 

[Raikh]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Oreades:

For the umpteen billionth time...... that fear is literally yours to take..... 

Hell all the "give us challenge" kiddies have been told for months "just don't overspec your builds" or flat out "take your heccin mods off" and the reply has been an almost unanimous "we shouldn't have to lift a finger to experience challenge". Flash forward to the Grendel "challenges" that did literally nothing but take off players mods and lock you out of the gear wheel/operator.... and the response has essentially been "erhmahgurd best thing since sliced toast~".

"For the umpteen billionth time"

People do not want challenge for the sake of challenge. People want a challenge at the upper end of their power progression. Something where they have to use all they've gathered and all they have learned. Thats what endgame is. A place where you are to use the entirety of your kit and power.
People who want to craft their own challenges play sandbox games, not looter games where the core of the game is to acquire power. Taking all your power, all you've worked for and earned away and then say "look now its difficult" is fundamentally undermining the games core loop and isn't particularly engaging for the players who have invested in that core loop.

The Grendel missions work maybe as a one time gimmick. They are not a sustainable model of providing challegnes. ANd they have form what I've seen largely gotten negative feedback, not even only because of supposed difficulty but because of how unenjoyable they are. People want to use their powers and setups and take their enjoyment from that. If people are stripped of their tools in a game about tools they are not enjoying themselves.
I personally didn't find those missions particularly challenging. They were mostly a slog. They take long, they don't provide itneresting gameplay and if you pick the right frames, you are not even remotely playing a high difficulty or high risk mission. I'm jsut playing the probably most boring and sluggish version of Warframe imaginable.

There is a huge difference between an endgame challenge and a challenge for challenge's sake. People want the former as it is a game all about loot and they want a space to use that loot to he fullest potential. Is that so difficult to comprehend?

Edited November 24, 2019 by Raikh

[Oreades]

1 minute ago, Raikh said:

The Grendel missions work maybe as a one time gimmick. They are not a sustainable model of providing challegnes.

Well then have I got some bad news for you *looks over at Paracesis and then over at the 13 blighted Kuva Lich weapons that bear it's terrible forma mechanic* 

DE isn't exactly great at leaving tepid one-offs as tepid one-offs 

[Raikh]

vor 47 Minuten schrieb Oreades:

Well then have I got some bad news for you *looks over at Paracesis and then over at the 13 blighted Kuva Lich weapons that bear it's terrible forma mechanic* 

DE isn't exactly great at leaving tepid one-offs as tepid one-offs 

Paracesis never struck me as something that will be a one-off regarding the level 40 tbh. I absolutely epxected there to be more of them as some sort of next-gen weapons. The implementation is pretty bad but I've wondered quite a while even ebfore Paraceiss if we'll see stuff past level 30 as most of these ltypes of games eventually reahc a point where the levelling cap is expandend upon.

There is also again a vast difference between a mechanic like level 40 weapons and very specific missions with very specific rules. If these were some new type of mission that was just horrible I would still totally expect to see them again. But the Grendel mission are just normal missions you have to do without mods. There is no greater idea behind them that would imply them becoming a staple or steadily returning thing. Not to say that we will never see such missions again but the chance is way lower than with level 40 weapons.

[Oreades]

4 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Paracesis never struck me as something that will be a one-off regarding the level 40 tbh. I absolutely epxected there to be more of them as some sort of next-gen weapons. The implementation is pretty bad but I've wondered quite a while even ebfore Paraceiss if we'll see stuff past level 30 as most of these ltypes of games eventually reahc a point where the levelling cap is expandend upon.

There is also again a vast difference between a mechanic like level 40 weapons and very specific missions with very specific rules. If these were some new type of mission that was just horrible I would still totally expect to see them again. But the Grendel mission are just normal missions you have to do without mods. There is no greater idea behind them that would imply them becoming a staple or steadily returning thing. Not to say that we will never see such missions again but the chance is way lower than with level 40 weapons.

I would counter that the Grendel mission is just the next iteration in a fairly consistent pattern of nullifying player powers. 

Ironically enough starting with Nullifiers, moving into invulnerability phases for bosses, removing the gear wheel with Onslaught, Arbitration drones making everything invulnerable and being immune to Warframe powers... and finally getting rid of all mods and operator and gear wheel. Removing powers/ability or adding immunity has been their go-to for a long time. These missions where inevitable and won't be the last time they pull this kind of thing. 

Tho to be fair an immunity phase done well can be a decent mechanic but then you have Kril....

When it comes to the weapons, personally I'm more disgusted that they tied MR to the forma requirement which feels gross and exploitative. Sans that I don't think I'd have a problem with everything having the actual option to go to 40. Even if it's much loser to actually going to 85+ 

[Raikh]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Oreades:

I would counter that the Grendel mission is just the next iteration in a fairly consistent pattern of nullifying player powers. 

Ironically enough starting with Nullifiers, moving into invulnerability phases for bosses, removing the gear wheel with Onslaught, Arbitration drones making everything invulnerable and being immune to Warframe powers... and finally getting rid of all mods and operator and gear wheel. Removing powers/ability or adding immunity has been their go-to for a long time. These missions where inevitable and won't be the last time they pull this kind of thing. 

Tho to be fair an immunity phase done well can be a decent mechanic but then you have Kril....

I can see what you mean. I'm not really convinced however that we will see this frequently as a means to shut down player power like Nullification and Arbi Drones.
I think thats too extreme even for DE who certainly have been on a lowkey crusade agaisnt abilities for some time. Atleast I hope that its clearly visible how it goes directly against their own game design. It would compeltely destroy the loop of the game if you'd have to put your power down every time you wanted new and then still have no palce to use either the old or the new power.

Ability disabling is certainly a huge issue right now. Some frames are just stripped of their kit or consistency while others don't give dime. A year ago or so when I still mained Excal I was totally turned off by Abritrations since Exalted Blade couldn't hit drones and if I had to constantly turn it off I mgiht as well play another frame who doesn't care. Similarly as a melee "only" player being constantly purged of all buffs when running near a Demoylst in Disrutpion is insanely annoying. I really like Gauss but I simply can't bring myself to paly him much anymore atm because the missiont ypes I primarily run atm cripple him constantly as its not only a buff recast but also means I have to rebuild the gauge and maintain it again without ever being able to enjoy the 30-40s state where Gauss is at full power.

Boss invulenarbility should serve a distinct tpurpose where you are supposed to do something else than directly attacking the boss. Zealoid Prelate did that kinda well Kril and especially Vay Hek are just utter garbage. Definitely agreed on that. If the boss is just randomly immune to damage while still shooting you just the same where its just a waiting game then its jsut badly designed.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Oreades:

When it comes to the weapons, personally I'm more disgusted that they tied MR to the forma requirement which feels gross and exploitative. Sans that I don't think I'd have a problem with everything having the actual option to go to 40. Even if it's much loser to actually going to 85+ 

Can agree on that part. I don't mind formaing a wepaon I like and want to use 5 times. I think its a neat idea to epxand the evel cap a little as long as it proives some beenfits long-term. Primaries already have it tight with mod capacity. Melees have been creeping up voer time but epsecially due to stances are still not quite there and never need more than 5 polarities making level 40 irrelevant.

For mastery however its just pure frustration. Having to forma and level a weapon 5 extra times to get that extra bit of mastery is jsut plain bad. I personally don't feel very strong about this as I don't care much about amstery. But there are cleary a lot of people that do, along with it being one line of progression in the game, thus making ti definitely an issue.