Biddion Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 The lich system needs to be rethought. An item that dismisses the nemesis or another function such as a alt attack of the parazon. I have never been cursed at in the three years I have played until this update. I am thick-skinned enough not to be bothered emotionally, but I'd rather not have to deal with it just to play a GAME. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNoJump Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 It's not that hard to just die to them is it? Needing all your revives in a mission isn't really common, especially if you're actually letting teammates revive you instead of just cancelling bleedout. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyreaus Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 10 minutes ago, YUNoJump said: It's not that hard to just die to them is it? Psychology, psychology, psychology... To make a more pragmatic note: it's clearly something a number of people aren't fans of, and even many of the people who don't mind it...well, don't mind it. There's very little excitement expressed over this version of forced loss. So is much really lost if that part is just fixed, even just as OP suggests, for the betterment of the formers' experience and the apathy of the latters'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test-995 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 20 minutes ago, YUNoJump said: It's not that hard to just die to them is it? Needing all your revives in a mission isn't really common, especially if you're actually letting teammates revive you instead of just cancelling bleedout. If it's not that hard, there wouldn't be this much of complaint about people not killing liches. So... it's hard, i suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GruntBlender Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 24 minutes ago, YUNoJump said: It's not that hard to just die to them is it? Needing all your revives in a mission isn't really common, especially if you're actually letting teammates revive you instead of just cancelling bleedout. It's faster to clear liches if you don't kill them, paradoxically. It's best to wait till you have at least 2/3 mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enemystand Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 Use revenant cast 1 on your Lich then press 3, done the lich will retreat without leveling up or losing aggro, but you will not get the murmur for failing and you get to listen the special dialogues they have for running away 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnakoji Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 This is why I've been running with Revenant in every lich mission. Just say you're not going to attempt the fight and I'll clear it up. Others want their lich to spawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyreaus Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 I feel like I should point out, everyone, that this is in feedback. Thus, OP is asking for a solution to these sorts of things so everyone can come off a little happier. I think it'd be more prudent to support some kind of solution, instead of trying to deride the player for their decisions and interactions that led them to making this thread. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askorti Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 I wholeheartedly agree that the system is wrong. Not the people who don't want to stab their lich, not the people who want others to stab their lich. It's the system that is bonkers. So to all the people who bother others to sacrifice themselves for your sake, get lost. But it's not my fault. And not your fault either. I don't do Liches at present, waiting for the system to be fixed, but if I was, I would totally hold up your lich from spawning if mine spawned, unless I have all the mods in place. Is it my fault? No. It's the system that is hostile, not me. So stop yelling at me, yell at DE to fix this crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilmera Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, Askorti said: I wholeheartedly agree that the system is wrong. Not the people who don't want to stab their lich, not the people who want others to stab their lich. It's the system that is bonkers. So to all the people who bother others to sacrifice themselves for your sake, get lost. But it's not my fault. And not your fault either. I don't do Liches at present, waiting for the system to be fixed, but if I was, I would totally hold up your lich from spawning if mine spawned, unless I have all the mods in place. Is it my fault? No. It's the system that is hostile, not me. So stop yelling at me, yell at DE to fix this crap. Intentional griefing. Ok 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zekkii Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 No one has ever harassed me about not attacking my Lich. There's a really simple trick to it actually, if you want people off your back then all you have to do is attack your Lich. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightOwl_ Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) If your ego is so fragile that dying to your lich, which, while letting your teammates get theirs to spawn, also gives you a good chunk of murmur as well as levels up your lich, giving you more nodes (and thus more defense and survival nodes) upsets you this bad, seek professional help or play solo because kid you got issues. Edited November 15, 2019 by OmegaDonut 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakata Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) The player should be able to bear the fact that lich kills him during the phase of figuring out the right combination of mods and farming murmurs. If the fact that something kills you in a video game for a narrative reason (mind that it doesn't matter, u can revive instantly) is something that u cant take and need to plead to change this horrific unfair experience, then developer shouldn't bend to this cry out, if the negative emotion was his intent. Liches are supposed to be annoying bastards and you are supposed to don't like them. I like that little sting every time the lich crushes me because I always say to myself "next time you ugly f****r" It seems like this was a designer's intention and it works at least for me as intended. BUT, I can understand the fact that some people who are hunting liches are unable to kill hi-level liches (well you will probably level it anyway during process of figuring out the order of requiem mods, if you will be unlucky you will get it up to lvl4 even if you spent whole murmur farming avoiding it) and don't want to fight against hi-level thralls because its "not effective" for them. THIS SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN THE MATTER OF CHOICE When the lich spawns, the doors should shut like when the stalker hunts you and you should be forced to face it and be unable to proceed in mission unless you win or die. Or the lich should chase you around the map more effectively and it should not be possible to extract from the mission until you solve him. If it was done the way, that final battle will always be against lvl 5 lich no matter what then we would not have this debacle of players that want to fight and players that wants to run. It would be given that if you wanna fight the lich you need the power for it and if you don't have it DONT DO IT, don't play lich hunts. Its an "end game"... for now. Of course, you cant change design that way at this moment coz players would go absolute bananas because they experienced something different before and this would be very nonWarframe. Edited November 15, 2019 by Wakata 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnyn Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 They could just make it that if left alone for too long the lich kills the person it hunts. For example the lich teleports to it's target once and after being downed and not interacted with twice, the next time the lich goes down it telefrags the non interacting player. This would prevent the lich being downed far away from its target so you wont have the issue of not making it in time if someone else downs the lich. This solution would even preserve the non interacting strategy (which is slower but you do you in solo missions or whatever) if everyone is on board with it but also make it so that one person cant hold up other lich spawns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Ozymandias-13- Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 This argument seems to be going in two different directions, because there is in fact two sides to it, but they aren't exclusive. After all of the feedback reported on this content, yes it needs to be changed. But you should also be taking every effort to avoid screwing over your team in the meantime, meaning "suck it up and take one for the team". Otherwise, play solo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertEagle1280 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 8 hours ago, GruntBlender said: It's faster to clear liches if you don't kill them, paradoxically. It's best to wait till you have at least 2/3 mods. This, this guy gets it (as do many of us)! I don't care about the "revive", I'm not emotionally overwrought by the instadeath (I agree it doesn't make sense at all, but that said it doesn't hurt my pwecious fe-fees). It simply doesn't benefit me to die. It's not about the death, it's about the ROI. If I die without purpose, all it does is get me a little extra murmur progress. The cost for that progress is that it resets the lich so once I know the code it'll take longer to spawn, it makes the future lich fights take longer (not harder, just more time consuming). And to boot, it's asking me to judge these pros and cons for a "reward" that may not actually be any reward at all, because even 26.07 failed to address player-negative incentives of Nth copy weapons, and elemental percentages. So no, for everyone who wants to whine about people not feeling like screwing themselves for no gain, try whining to DE that they need to make player-positive decisions instead of player-negative ones instead. Until stabbing my lich gives me useful information I'm not gambling a d8 just to make other players happy while hosing myself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kefirno Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 I have no problem with people being screeching apes in games, that's part of the fun, but seeing lots of people getting mad about someone playing efficiently is really disappointing. Especially when they whine that your lich doesn't allow theirs to spawn while there's always an option to play solo/in organized group. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5H4DE Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 17 minutes ago, Kefirno said: I have no problem with people being screeching apes in games, that's part of the fun, but seeing lots of people getting mad about someone playing efficiently is really disappointing. Especially when they whine that your lich doesn't allow theirs to spawn while there's always an option to play solo/in organized group. When your efficiency comes at the cost of another 3 players' then I believe you can understand why it's not pleasant to deal with someone who refuses to kill their lich. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel_Rook Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 9 hours ago, YUNoJump said: It's not that hard to just die to them is it? Needing all your revives in a mission isn't really common, especially if you're actually letting teammates revive you instead of just cancelling bleedout. Three things. First of all, that's a death which taxes your Affinity when you revive. Secondly, it up-levels the Lich, which raises the level of their missions and the amount of resources they still. Lastly, there's no real point. The Requiem guessing game is so heavily stacked against the player that there's no real point in trying to guess until you have all three Murmurs. Plus, yeah - nobody likes dying in a cutscene after having won the fight. The current Kuva Lich system is set up in a way that it heavily discourages the apparently intended way to play it. It's pretty clear that DE want us killing our Liches over and over again only for them to come back, but they've designed a system that's stacked full of disincentives to doing that. They had to code in ANY reason whatsoever to try and kill your Lich before you got all of your Murmurs, and only fools like myself actually bought into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Educated_Beast Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 42 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said: Three things. First of all, that's a death which taxes your Affinity when you revive. Secondly, it up-levels the Lich, which raises the level of their missions and the amount of resources they still. Lastly, there's no real point. The Requiem guessing game is so heavily stacked against the player that there's no real point in trying to guess until you have all three Murmurs. Plus, yeah - nobody likes dying in a cutscene after having won the fight. The current Kuva Lich system is set up in a way that it heavily discourages the apparently intended way to play it. It's pretty clear that DE want us killing our Liches over and over again only for them to come back, but they've designed a system that's stacked full of disincentives to doing that. They had to code in ANY reason whatsoever to try and kill your Lich before you got all of your Murmurs, and only fools like myself actually bought into it. I have guess correctly twice. After you fail a few and murmors open, it is beneficial tofiguring out the sequence faster. However, the "rage" meter is the only logical reason someone shouldn't try to kill. If you are close to unlocking 3rd murmor and dont want to reset the rage, then it's smarter to ignore that mission, find out third (especially if already determined sequence of other two). I think we should be allowed to taunt out nemesis to increase his rage, at least once per day. Just throw a little kid insult at him and allow meter to jump one level. At that point, there is no reason not to try. You get murmors, you eleminate a choice, and you can help determine order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandabarrel Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) I dont understand where people get the "its faster to just farm out the thralls for all three" when ive guessed the first two mods and taken a lich down in an hours worth of playtime. Just experiment and change your mods out every time. Your lich levels up yeah but anything below level 200 isn't that hard, just bring Inaros if you really have an issue. The Lich almost never steals anything to worry about, and if he does thats more motivation to get the right combo and take them out. If you dont wanna kill your lich and hold people who do want to fight their lich up than you need to be soloing. Edited November 15, 2019 by Pandabarrel 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel_Rook Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, Pandabarrel said: I dont understand where people get the "its faster to just farm out the thralls for all three" when ive guessed the first two mods and taken a lich down in an hours worth of playtime. Just experiment and change your mods out every time. Your lich levels up yeah but anything below level 200 isn't that hard, just bring Inaros if you really have an issue. The Lich almost never steals anything to worry about, and if he does thats more motivation to get the right combo and take them out. If you dont wanna kill your lich and hold people who do want to fight their lich up than you need to be soloing. Right, but you getting lucky doesn't mean I will. That's the gambler's fallacy right there. You have 8 mods which can be arranged in three slots, though I don't think they can repeat. So each attempt gives you 1 out of 8*7*6 = 1 / 336 = ~0.003, or ~0.3% chance to get it right. Your chances don't really improve with additional guesses, either, especially if you fail to guess the first mod. I tried guessing on my own Lich. I guess four times, failed to guess correctly on a single mod. It turns out that the first mod one I didn't even HAVE. I then guessed two mods correctly on the fifth attempt, but got the third wrong. I've since guessed twice again, both times still incorrect. In fact, the only way I had of guessing correctly was to get all of the murmurs, because I now know all three mods and their sequence. Like I said - the guessing game sucks ass. You have a very low percentage chance to guess right and you're not really given any information with which to narrow down subsequent choices beyond eliminating a single option. It's not an actual "game," in other words. I've proposed ways to gamify it in the past, make it into an actual system where players collect clues and make educated guesses based on partial information. Sure, it'd still be guessing at random, just not COMPLETELY at random. As it stands right now, the Requiem guessing game is just another random roll of the dice with no real gameplay to it, and most people don't seem to want to die for that roll of the dice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GruntBlender Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said: ~0.3% chance to get it right. At worst, you have to make 19 attempts without knowing any mods, and 4 if you know all 3. Because the first ones are revealed fairly quickly, it's best to wait until you know them to fail. Then, you wait until you know the last one to complete the sequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhkretor Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Tyreaus said: To make a more pragmatic note: it's clearly something a number of people aren't fans of ... The wrong attitude by forcing groups into not having a chance at spawning their Lich because someone's being an idiot by not attempting to kill his/her Lich while falining (or not) in the process? ... I agree, and I don't even run missions in group. Edited November 15, 2019 by Uhkretor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyreaus Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, Uhkretor said: ... The wrong attitude by forcing groups into not having a chance at spawning their Lich because someone's being an idiot by not attempting to kill his/her Lich while falining (or not) in the process? ... I agree, and I don't even run missions in group. "The wrong attitude"—not what I mentioned, but so what? This system is clearly creating a nice and messy schism in the playerbase. That's not good. People are butting heads over whether these behaviours are justified or acceptable when it's entirely possible, probably preferable, to get together and tell DE to remove the damn thing that's causing the arguments in the first place. If I have any side in this, that is my side. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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