Aldain Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Littlelosttank said: Or have a way for people to learn said order with out committing scripted suicide. Technically Murmer farming from thralls is supposed to be that system, but because Lichs give murmers on suici- er I mean "Mercy", people are clinging to that as the optimal (read as: RIGHT AND ONLY) playstyle. But overall it is just the sad truth that this is on DE for failing to design a system where players WANT to mercy their Lich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartPurity Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 you know what, killing it too fast also got people who jump on you. He said more thralls spawn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Educated_Beast Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 6 hours ago, Colyeses said: Imagine this non-fictional scenario: You choose to go into multiplayer because you're trying to get murmurs farmed and it's high level content Your lich spawns in while you don't want him to You do not have the immortal mods you need to kill him Your randos get pissed at you for not deathstriking your lich because you don't want to get saddled with a lich you can't destroy If you cannot kill a level 5 lich, why even spawn lich? The game has existed for 6+ years without them, don't kill the larva. Do something else that doesn't hinder other players that are ready. The lich system needs an MR lock of at least 15, maybe 20. I know it's a horrible measure of a player, but it's all we got. I'm sorry, but you are not ready for this content 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelous_A Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 (edited) 21 hours ago, YUNoJump said: It's not that hard to just die to them is it? Needing all your revives in a mission isn't really common, especially if you're actually letting teammates revive you instead of just cancelling bleedout. Not gonna happen sorry, I literally put this much time on this game so I don't die to the enemies. Edited November 16, 2019 by Marvelous_A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test-995 Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 15 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said: If you cannot kill a level 5 lich, why even spawn lich? The game has existed for 6+ years without them, don't kill the larva. Do something else that doesn't hinder other players that are ready. The lich system needs an MR lock of at least 15, maybe 20. I know it's a horrible measure of a player, but it's all we got. I'm sorry, but you are not ready for this content Perhaps you can't believe it, but we don't have to rank it up all the way to 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Kittens- Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 23 hours ago, Biddion said: The lich system needs to be rethought. An item that dismisses the nemesis or another function such as a alt attack of the parazon. I have never been cursed at in the three years I have played until this update. I am thick-skinned enough not to be bothered emotionally, but I'd rather not have to deal with it just to play a GAME. You're the jerk here, simple as. Take the L and let other players summon their liches and get extra requiem. or play private. the onus is entirely on you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyreaus Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Aldain said: Technically Murmer farming from thralls is supposed to be that system, but because Lichs give murmers on suici- er I mean "Mercy", people are clinging to that as the optimal (read as: RIGHT AND ONLY) playstyle. But overall it is just the sad truth that this is on DE for failing to design a system where players WANT to mercy their Lich. Murmur farming is most of it, but the murmurs don't give you the order. It decreases the RNG suicide element a lot since it's only guessing the order and not the elements, but you still have to guess the order. And I think Littlelosttank would prefer it eliminate the RNG suicide outright. I think the worst thing is that, because of the mess this system creates and the tendency of players in these threads to focus on behaviours rather than the system, it's possible DE could look at feedback threads like this and think their system works or, at least, is well-liked. I would hope not—judging by the fact the Lich has voice lines if you glitch it away with Revenant, it does seem you're meant to be able to get them away from you somehow—but, sometimes, you never know... Also, I feel like it isn't that the system fails to make players want to mercy their Lich, but more that the system still discourages players from doing so. They could make the insta-death a not-insta-death—just make it deal the same damage as its regular command grabs—and the current murmur reward could very well be just fine to balance out the difficulty increase (though they could also slow down that part some, too, so that it only gains levels every handful of attempts instead of every single attempt—that's just a balance thing). Edited November 16, 2019 by Tyreaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said: I think the worst thing is that, because of the mess this system creates and the tendency of players in these threads to focus on behaviours rather than the system, it's possible DE could look at feedback threads like this and think their system works or, at least, is well-liked. I would hope not—judging by the fact the Lich has voice lines if you glitch it away with Revenant, it does seem you're meant to be able to get them away from you somehow—but, sometimes, you never know... Also, I feel like it isn't that the system fails to make players want to mercy their Lich, but more that the system still discourages players from doing so. They could make the insta-death a not-insta-death—just make it deal the same damage as its regular command grabs—and the current murmur reward could very well be just fine to balance out the difficulty increase. Overall the problem can only be solved by DE, these types of threads (and the back and forth mud slinging that comes with them) are indeed purely a byproduct of a clunky system. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colyeses Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 3 hours ago, Educated_Beast said: I'm sorry, but you are not ready for this content That is exactly why people are avoiding leveling their liches! Not to mention the huge difficulty discrepancies between lich loadouts. 7 hours ago, Jitsuryoku said: I haven't seen a team that ignored another player's lich yet I have! Because the entire team got wiped three times over and then quit! And no matter what help I get afterwards, it's not enough to take down my lich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoefficientOfCool Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 if a person WANTS their lich to spawn to be able to kill them or guess requiem order, then THEY should be the person who is playing solo. that is the only way to guarantee their lich spawns. it seems everyone in these threads always forgets the first rule of using "public matchmaking," namely, have no expectations for other players' skill/actions. apparently eidolons are end-game content, I prefer pubs over 4x3/5x3 bc it is more fun for me personally. you better believe I go into every pub hunt with the ability and expectation of having to carry through all 3 eidos. is it the mr5 rinostronk's fault he can't do this content and shouldn't be there/much less be able to select the damn bounty? not really, that issue is on DE. I mention eidos bc this is supposed to be endgame content as well, or so I've heard. high level or not, pub is still pub baby. find a group for farming murmurs if you're trying to be all tryhard, otherwise, get off my lawn kids. Ironically enough, in every GOOD murmur-farming group I've joined, you DONT WANT TO IMMEDIATELY KILL & DESPAWN the lich. you want them to max out their thrall spawn, then try and brute force the combo. if you've reached max "murmur-gainage" for that mission, then you wait a short while for another lich to spawn. if no lich spawns in that timeframe(~45sec I think?) then leave mission and start another. personally i try to brute force as soon as i can just because i enjoy the high level missions. but when pub murmur farming, i dont care what other people do. it is just a video game, right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuChulainnWD Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, CoefficientOfCool said: if a person WANTS their lich to spawn to be able to kill them or guess requiem order, then THEY should be the person who is playing solo. that is the only way to guarantee their lich spawns. it seems everyone in these threads always forgets the first rule of using "public matchmaking," namely, have no expectations for other players' skill/actions. apparently eidolons are end-game content, I prefer pubs over 4x3/5x3 bc it is more fun for me personally. you better believe I go into every pub hunt with the ability and expectation of having to carry through all 3 eidos. is it the mr5 rinostronk's fault he can't do this content and shouldn't be there/much less be able to select the damn bounty? not really, that issue is on DE. I mention eidos bc this is supposed to be endgame content as well, or so I've heard. high level or not, pub is still pub baby. find a group for farming murmurs if you're trying to be all tryhard, otherwise, get off my lawn kids. Ironically enough, in every GOOD murmur-farming group I've joined, you DONT WANT TO IMMEDIATELY KILL & DESPAWN the lich. you want them to max out their thrall spawn, then try and brute force the combo. if you've reached max "murmur-gainage" for that mission, then you wait a short while for another lich to spawn. if no lich spawns in that timeframe(~45sec I think?) then leave mission and start another. personally i try to brute force as soon as i can just because i enjoy the high level missions. but when pub murmur farming, i dont care what other people do. it is just a video game, right? Except for the fact that 1) you tend to be in a minority category with that desire as evidence in my own personal experience, 2) The name of the game is LICH HUNTING not Lich conservation. When 3 members of your party want to do something and YOU want to hold them back, then YOU are the one in the wrong by majority rules. Stop being intellectually dishonest with yourself. If three members DON'T want to hunt their Liches knowing that they will spawn, then the one that does will have to suck it up. Though I would question why the other three are hunting Lich in the first place. Edited November 16, 2019 by CuChulainnWD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoefficientOfCool Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 (edited) *has tips on how to farm efficiently in post, which thought would help people chill out* *read a reply laced with moodiness and an "my opinion is a fact" vibe* please re-read my post. now, when I say I personally brute force as soon as I can, what that means is I kill my lich asap(pub or solo) just to level him up to make the missions more fun for me. for me, the name of the game is fun and efficiency. for others, it isnt. I think you need to consider that maybe your opinion of what people should do, is just your opinion. as I said before and tried to make a point about, loading into a public mission is on you. you do not get to dictate other people's actions in a public mission. it is just that simple. Edited November 16, 2019 by CoefficientOfCool removed unhelpful things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shy0 Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 going through this thread, i'm kinda glad now that i've been hit by the bug that stops larvlings spawning. it's just a game and DE made a bad design decision (that or they don't know what the hell they're doing half the time, just muddled through and got lucky their game blew up like it did). if you're raging at other players instead of the devs because of bad game design, you're kinda doing it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHarlequin Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 Different players make different playstyles but the game itself has some mechanics that are important to the overall play experience. The Lich mechanic currently is that you chose to take a Lich when you first stab the larvling. If you do that, you better put up with having a Lich. You don't chose to not kill them when you go to an influence mission, you are choosing to confront your lich. If you will not stab your lich during an influence mission then you are the problem. You don't need a change or a fix to accomodate you, that is what you are there to do. Beating the mechanics of the system should not be implemented or coddled. You chose the mission, take part or stop playing those missions with people that are taking part in those missions. You shouldn't be getting hate and you shouldn't be treated badly, but honestly, the primary mission objective is do the mission. The secondary is defeat thralls and your Lich if it shows up. There is no objective or points for not doing that. Play the game or go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelosttank Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 20 hours ago, Aldain said: Technically Murmer farming from thralls is supposed to be that system, but because Lichs give murmers on suici- er I mean "Mercy", people are clinging to that as the optimal (read as: RIGHT AND ONLY) playstyle. But overall it is just the sad truth that this is on DE for failing to design a system where players WANT to mercy their Lich. Yeah only DE can fix this, but once the scripted scuicide being a must is removed entirely, people won't want to make their farming harder pointlessly (no 10 murmurs is a pathetic joke for 'incentive' currently) 16 hours ago, Tyreaus said: Murmur farming is most of it, but the murmurs don't give you the order. It decreases the RNG suicide element a lot since it's only guessing the order and not the elements, but you still have to guess the order. And I think Littlelosttank would prefer it eliminate the RNG suicide outright. I think the worst thing is that, because of the mess this system creates and the tendency of players in these threads to focus on behaviours rather than the system, it's possible DE could look at feedback threads like this and think their system works or, at least, is well-liked. I would hope not—judging by the fact the Lich has voice lines if you glitch it away with Revenant, it does seem you're meant to be able to get them away from you somehow—but, sometimes, you never know... Also, I feel like it isn't that the system fails to make players want to mercy their Lich, but more that the system still discourages players from doing so. They could make the insta-death a not-insta-death—just make it deal the same damage as its regular command grabs—and the current murmur reward could very well be just fine to balance out the difficulty increase (though they could also slow down that part some, too, so that it only gains levels every handful of attempts instead of every single attempt—that's just a balance thing). Agreed. Over all the liches 'could' keep their auto scuicide mechanic but with out a alternative to learn the order its a forced and unavoidable suicide system. Now if say after you get the mods known, then you start to learn the order of said mods for farming the thralls, or the lich just rag dolled you across the room on a fail for the order then it would be better. Granted the first idea won't help for when a lich shows up and you don't yet know the order. In the end only DE will be able to fix the mess they created, Till then their own system is only going to breed distain and toxic behaver from players towards each other. This thread proving to be a prime example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GruntBlender Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 Possible solution for players until the system is fixed is to go through recruiting chat. Do LF if you're after murmurs as it's unlikely the missions you get will be on your lich's planet so your lich won't spawn. Host a murmur farm if you want to kill your lich with other players but don't want their lich blocking yours. Go public to roll the dice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No1NParticular31 Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 On 2019-11-14 at 11:32 PM, Biddion said: The lich system needs to be rethought. An item that dismisses the nemesis or another function such as a alt attack of the parazon. I have never been cursed at in the three years I have played until this update. I am thick-skinned enough not to be bothered emotionally, but I'd rather not have to deal with it just to play a GAME. OK this is a serious question: Why would you NOT want to attack the Lich? If you do not have all or even any of the mods figured out then that means you are still collecting murmurs and attacking it gives you basically a full mission's worth of murmurs in exchange for 1 revive. That speeds up the process of collecting murmurs immensely and either confirms or rules out at least 1 mod. I have gotten lucky once and had my attack on a Lich tell me my guess for the first slot was correct before I collected enough murmurs to know any of them yet. I am just not seeing any downside to doing it. If you know something I don't, please share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said: Why would you NOT want to attack the Lich? We've been over this. Automatic deaths suck, and leveling up a Lich makes farming future Murmers needlessly more difficult for what most people would consider an inconsequential amount of murmers. Those are the two problems, you don't have to agree with them, but not agreeing with them doesn't mean other people no longer have those problems. Edited November 17, 2019 by Aldain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No1NParticular31 Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Aldain said: We've been over this. Automatic deaths suck, and leveling up a Lich makes farming future Murmers needlessly more difficult for what most people would consider an inconsequential amount of murmers. Those are the two problems, you don't have to agree with them, but not agreeing with them doesn't mean other people no longer have those problems. Automatic deaths are trivial but whatever. How exactly does it make farming murmurs more difficult? I actually find it easier. The higher level the more planets it can control and the more access to "desirable" missions you have and thus it's easier to get full groups for more thralls. I am just not seeing how it becomes more difficult. Edited November 17, 2019 by No1NParticular31 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuChulainnWD Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said: OK this is a serious question: Why would you NOT want to attack the Lich? If you do not have all or even any of the mods figured out then that means you are still collecting murmurs and attacking it gives you basically a full mission's worth of murmurs in exchange for 1 revive. That speeds up the process of collecting murmurs immensely and either confirms or rules out at least 1 mod. I have gotten lucky once and had my attack on a Lich tell me my guess for the first slot was correct before I collected enough murmurs to know any of them yet. I am just not seeing any downside to doing it. If you know something I don't, please share. I operate and conduct my hunts in a similar manner to you. Intellectually I can agree with those not wanting to engage with their Lich on the principle that the deaths we endure are mechanically cheap, but also contradict Lore and what was to be game wise, the way the Lich's were to be engaged. We kill them and they keep coming back. DE is the responsible party for the current discord among our community. Yes one small faction do not wish to engage their Lich, some play publicly and can hold up the progress of the other 3 that wish to do so. There are so many problems withthe Lich system that many of us have pointed out to DE with our feedback, yet they refuse to acknowledge, update or address any of them until next Friday, and most likely a solution will not be had longer after that. In the mean time we get to keep on arguing like rabid dogs. On Principle however, I would suggest majority rules wins. This is a Lich Hunt not a conservation. If an individual does not want to engage their lich then why go on a pug where everyone else does? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuChulainnWD Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, GruntBlender said: Possible solution for players until the system is fixed is to go through recruiting chat. Do LF if you're after murmurs as it's unlikely the missions you get will be on your lich's planet so your lich won't spawn. Host a murmur farm if you want to kill your lich with other players but don't want their lich blocking yours. Go public to roll the dice. Having been on a ton of Lich hunts myself, I can say that it is about 1 in 8 or 1 in 10 where a pug has one member not wishing to engage their Lich. To me that suggests a majority do. They understand the mechanics that it is a Lich hunt. If you the individual do not want to engage your Lich, how about you take the onus to go solo or find a similarly like minded group? You know Lich's will spawn, and mechanically one Lich being held up will prevent the others from spawning. That to me is hijacking game play for everyone else. That to me is a player being selfish when they could have taken matters into their hands and play the way they like solo or with a dedicated group to no Lich engagements. Majority rules mate. Edited November 17, 2019 by CuChulainnWD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said: How exactly does it make farming murmurs more difficult? I actually find it easier. The higher level the more planets it can control and the more access to "desirable" missions you have and thus it's easier to get full groups for more thralls. I am just not seeing how it becomes more difficult. You are likely past the point where level 100 Grineer are considered powerful. That is not a level of power that most of the playerbase casually can manage, even I have to aim for headshots and use crowd control against level 100+ enemies and I can handle up to around 150 with little issue. Level 100 Grineer have massive spikes in durability that for most people causes them to go from durable to sponges REALLY fast. Also the outgoing damage increases drastically so squishy frames die with little room for error. You may not have issues with level 100 Grineer anymore, but other players still do because of the scaling system of armor and enemy damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No1NParticular31 Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 I just made a post offering a potential compromise where are in the party should get something and everyone can play the way they want. Hopefully it will get approval from the players and traction from DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuChulainnWD Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said: I just made a post offering a potential compromise where are in the party should get something and everyone can play the way they want. Hopefully it will get approval from the players and traction from DE. The solution to this is mechanical. DE gets rid of the cheap deaths, allows players to engage other peoples Liches to sweep the board clean say a minute and a half maybe 2 minutes after the Lich spawns and has been engaged by its owner, to prevent trolling. To clarify, if the Lich is down and on its last legs (3rd health bar) and the owner does not engage the lich, it is open season for others to clear it. Similarly, if the Lich is down after the 1st health bar and the owner does not come to engage the Lich say the min to 2 min mark (Balancing may be required) then other players can clear the Lich for others to spawn. It is a reasonable compromise, everyone gets what they want, DE can allow the protesting Tenno not to be penalised for not engaging their Lich or not. Everyone will and should get murmur traces for the shared Lich kill but also the additional thrall spawns that may make an appearance. Edited November 17, 2019 by CuChulainnWD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No1NParticular31 Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Aldain said: You are likely past the point where level 100 Grineer are considered powerful. That is not a level of power that most of the playerbase casually can manage, even I have to aim for headshots and use crowd control against level 100+ enemies and I can handle up to around 150 with little issue. Level 100 Grineer have massive spikes in durability that for most people causes them to go from durable to sponges REALLY fast. Also the outgoing damage increases drastically so squishy frames die with little room for error. You may not have issues with level 100 Grineer anymore, but other players still do because of the scaling system of armor and enemy damage. OK then. For the record it's not like I am a veteran of many years. I think I will hit the 190 day mark tomorrow, so it's not super difficult to get powered up. I will say that just like everything else in WF certain frames are better than others for specific tasks. If your frame is having difficulty with Lich level mobs, perhaps try a different frame or load out? Not trying to fight, just trying to be helpful here. I do acknowledge that with the recent upheaval of melee "re-balancing" that people's normal builds and load outs may no longer be optimal and may take some work to get back up to par. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now