It only took 2 weeks for people to lose interest in Kuva Lich gameplay

[ixidron92]

Too random, too grindy, too annoying and with unsatisfying rewards. That pretty much summarizes everything. They managed to turn a good system like the nemesis system upside down and backwards. I mean, how the #*!% can it be so complicated to copy something that we know works?!

[SneakyErvin]

I've got other things to do in the game, I'll do liches when I feel like it. Got Brakk, in the process of finishing up the forma on it, then I'll just grind random mods, riven slivers and kuva with my relics to get traces to upgrade the normal ones I want items from. In between that I'll hit up arbitrations for vitus to buy more kuva.

Since I'm not really interested in the mastery from Kuva weapons I dont see a massive need in grinding them since I was only really interested in the Brakk. I'm not going to spend another 60 forma to finish up the other 12 weapons, not at the moment atleast. I doubt I'll be using the Brakk even, since my Catchmoon still serves me well when I need some quick range attack in my melee swinging. And for primaries it is even more pointless, since the ones I have equipped barely see any use as it is.

[schilds]

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

takes forever to find a group for a Rad Relic run.

This will be partly because people have realised that using intact relics is more time efficient.

Edited November 15, 2019 by schilds

[Paradoxity]

3 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Too random, too grindy, too annoying and with unsatisfying rewards. That pretty much summarizes everything. They managed to turn a good system like the nemesis system upside down and backwards. I mean, how the #*!% can it be so complicated to copy something that we know works?!

It's one of DE's specialties. look at archwing. 

 

1 hour ago, Toran said:

All things wrong with Kuva Lichs I can think of right now:

• Too random
• Too grindy and uninteresting in a long run
• Supposed endgame but trivial for vets (e.g. got 10 of 13 weapons now) and too tough for someone who just is done with War Within
• Rewards are mediocre and but for few exceptions (with high rolls on top) affinity fodder (costy one with 65 formas), hardly worth all the effort (from both, Vet and beginner perspective)
• Lich murmur progress is prone to grief play/leech play
• Lichs aren't really the Nemesis-style enemies we expected
• No new game elements, same missions, bit stronger enemies. The novelty wears off very quickly.
• There are other interesting games out there
• New duplicate prevention is a sad thing, and let's be honest we don't mind duplicates at all if it's the right ones

The Lichs' artwork and the general idea are fine, but they feel more like muppets and not like a serious threat to the player. Once you had your fair share of runs they become more of an annoyance than anything else. If I can get the missing weapons by trading, I will spare my next larvling (always felt bad to kill the poor sobs) and ignore Lich content for a while.

This and 

4 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Too random, too grindy, too annoying and with unsatisfying rewards. That pretty much summarizes everything. They managed to turn a good system like the nemesis system upside down and backwards. I mean, how the #*!% can it be so complicated to copy something that we know works?!

This sum it up. Though I disagree with Toran's last point- the duplicate prevention mechanic was something the forums were *screaming* for initially, so I'm not too sure about saying we don't mind duplicates at all. 

But, I mean, look at the content as it is. First you farm relics. You have 1 option that gives you one for sure, then 3-6 or so that each have a 50% chance. This ties in with any other farming or grinding you might be doing, so it's not so bad- and I don't know anyone who has too much Kuva. Then you gotta open it. Let's be real, Kuva Rescue is a dumpster fire of a mission, so that leaves survival- which isn't too terrible bad, since, again, at least you can fold in a grind or some Kuva farming. But you gotta do this however many times  it takes to pull all the requiem mods (not really, I know, but it makes the most sense as an order of operations), so settle in for a long grind. Then you spawn you lich and *then* you get to the 'fun' part of dealing with an instadeath guessing game. 

All of this for the reward of... well,  the brakk is pretty good, I guess? and I always kinda liked  the Karak series mains...

[Renegade343]

1 hour ago, Toran said:

All things wrong with Kuva Lichs I can think of right now:

• Too random
• Too grindy and uninteresting in a long run
• Supposed endgame but trivial for vets (e.g. got 10 of 13 weapons now) and too tough for someone who just is done with War Within
• Rewards are mediocre and but for few exceptions (with high rolls on top) affinity fodder (costy one with 65 formas), hardly worth all the effort (from both, Vet and beginner perspective)
• Lich murmur progress is prone to grief play/leech play
• Lichs aren't really the Nemesis-style enemies we expected
• No new game elements, same missions, bit stronger enemies. The novelty wears off very quickly.
• There are other interesting games out there
• New duplicate prevention is a sad thing, and let's be honest we don't mind duplicates at all if it's the right ones

To add to the pile (I don't agree with some though): Trading Liches.

Pretty much blows the 'It's your personal nemesis!' pitch away with a cannon.

[Avienas]

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

70-80% of the lich nodes are half empty squads(or none), takes forever to find a group for a Rad Relic run. 

And this is why i kept frocking stating D.E. needs to stop associating content, especially limited reward content with a demand to run with full groups for optimal reward value. If it was just void traces, then it would not be an issue. Plus a better way to demand people run with groups is to make the content difficult, not literally affect the reward table based on elements that people are forced to either bring leeches or scrounge up people who actually are immune to annoyingly tiresome & tedious tasks that were not properly polished with some fun factor.

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

So people either gave up, or burned out already(because of the multiple layers of RNG not working in their favor).

Console player here and i can pretty much state just reviewing it is likely a burn out, that and the fact i stockpiled 80 forma bps (sadly down to a 75 stock now due to other gear tuning), Just to prepare for the thing and been sitting on max void traces for a week since i do not want to spam relic farming, even for ducats at the moment. When i already have over 3k+ of them sitting in my wallet.

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Is this really the sustainable content we were looking for ? What went wrong ? 

The main issue is this content does not act as a `addition` or even an `extension` to existing content. Its Quite literally open world, except with a very-rng-heavy & sparse reward at the end of a very long line of effort, instead of `weaker` gear available at the beginning or even multiple branches of `content` to get them. Which overall, outside of arcanes getting moved to eidolon, literally all of the open world content served little to no purpose except some decorations, expansions to operator and the overpowered weapons. Unless you count having alternative farming spots for limited periods of time for specific relics in the bounty table. it did not really help much towards endo, kuva, credit (or ducats) or even grinding our equipment. I do not count set mods since you can have those drop off of enemies too, instead of just being completely locked to the bounty loot table. plus most use them for 1-2 mods per set to fill stat extend & abusing exploits to get the near-max set bonus of mods like vigilante with ease.

Honestly, if D.E. decided to split up the content of kuva liches from railjack, it should of instead of did something like make Kuva liches act as the `end-game` farm of kuva which would be difficult, but could give alot more kuva then compared to regular farming methods, especially since your forced to ride on rails thru kuva siphons anyway to get the relics repeatedly, just to hope you get the mods, just so you can then have the right to play guessing game with the lich till he ded. Since it would kind of make sense that the kuva liches are likely have all that kuva that the young queen has been hoarding to pump into the liches, instead of what i assume was to be an attempt to revive her dying sister, cause space-fantasy will cluck the logic of a fatal wound should actually perma kill some bloke who is basically in some decaying body, since said queens could not take the time to heavily fund research into making perfect clones, so they would have proper bodies(since clearly they could of had more researchers then just Tyr Regor) and then improve the grineer to have more effective dominance in the solar system.

 

[Xenonthetenno]

 

1. The system is made more for grinding than fun

2. The grinding without prize burns out people really fast.

The system gives nothing. Once you got the weapon you want there is no more reason to hunt the lich.

3. Lich works more like a keypad door with taser than my "mortal enemy"

It feels like playing Hangman. Every time you got the wrong guess you get slapped on your face

4. Once started, there is no going back.

Can't even ignore since he leech on your resource. No pause and do sortie first and resume.

[Tsukinoki]

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

What went wrong ? 

A few things that kill it for me:

• The grind for each lich is just too long.  I mean it's 2 to 4 hours per attempt at a single reward.  meanwhile if you compare that to other games they measure there attempts at rewards in minutes, not hours.
• You know immediately if the next 2-4 hours are going to give you something, or give you absolutely nothing.  When I pull another lich that has an Ayanga I'm not happy or excited, I'm demoralized because I know that the next 2-4 hours will reward me with nothing yet I have to do it anyways.
• It puts a halt to doing anything else.  If you're grinding your lich you can't grind prime parts, you can't grind void traces, you can't grind kuva, you can't grind parazon mods, you can't play arbitrations.  You have to choose "Do I run and play the game?  Or do I fight my lich?"
• The lich isn't engaging in any way.  The only thing that it does is steal rewards that I would never notice.  It doesn't add anything to the gameplay loop.
• The forced deaths just feel bad.  I'm not losing because I'm bad, or failed to deal damage, or not pay attention.  I'm losing because the game just decided I do and there is no way to avoid it.
• Their "duplicate prevention" fix doesn't do anything meaningful, and actually hurts the system.  After all say I want a higher bonus brakk, I have an 8.3% chance to even roll the brakk.  Then I have to hope its a higher percentage.  What happens though if I get a brakk with a lower percentage?  My next roll has a zero percent chance to get the brakk, meaning I need to go through a 2-4 hour grind with zero chance at getting what I want, and then I have the ability to start a fresh 2-4 hour grind with an 8.3% chance to get what I want.  Meanwhile it doesn't really stop duplicates as you can still get "Seer -> Brakk -> Twin Stubba -> Seer -> Twin Stubba -> etc..."
• It doesn't add anything new to the gameplay.  Even the mini-boss lich encounters don't have anything new or special to them outside of the "You're forced to lose!" mechanic that eats a revive and 10% of the affinity you've gained in the mission.
• Once you have the weapons there is zero reason to replay it.  The overly long time to kill with the low chances of getting the weapon you want makes it just not worth it to try to get a better bonus.

Once I get the remaining weapons I don't have I"m just going to ignore the system.
It simply doesn't add anything to the gameplay, isn't interesting, and is a demoralizing 2-4 hour grind in a loot system where other games measure their attempts in minutes.

I mean compare getting a good Brakk roll to getting a max roll Sham in BL2.  I will gladly spend a few hours grinding the sham because each attempt is short, sweet, and rewarding with more than one item given to me.  Sure the sham has a lower drop chance than a given lich weapon, but at least I'm not faced with an immediate "You don't get it this time, now grind for 2-4 hours so you can try again!"

The lich system is just so demoralizing in how it has its grind set up.

[OvisCaedo]

I mean. Kuva liches barely even came with any new gameplay. You run regular but relatively high level grineer missions for a while to get slow murmur progress and maybe jumped by the lich. That part there, where the lich jumps you, is the entirety of the new gameplay in the cycle. Oh, and pressing X on thralls, I guess! That's new!

The other half of the system (getting mods) is just running kuva siphons for relics to do fissures. Though i guess now you can maybe cut the kuva siphons out from thrall drops? Either way, there's really not anything new to actually do here. It's a completely recycled grind given hopeful longevity through pure RNG to make you need to do it a lot of times.

i think kuva liches might have been very hastily scrapped together just to "stall for time" while they eternally struggle to make railjack

Edited November 15, 2019 by OvisCaedo

[Viges]

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

What went wrong ? 

Everything

[schilds]

28 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

First you farm relics

Not disagreeing with your overall point about the grind, but just picking on one thing. It's not the worst thing either, as you've noted. Anyway, now that relics drop from thralls, you will cover all the relics you need for mods on your way to deal with your Lich.

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by schilds

[Emolition]

I still play it I just dont grind to get all weapons in the first week. I take 1 lich over a day or 3. So far I only used up 1 of my runes that I have to farm a new off. But I only farm them when my friend is on so we have double chance to get it. I run mostly the thrall nodes atm until I know I need the ris rune again.

[Chicken-Biryani]

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

70-80% of the lich nodes are half empty squads(or none), takes forever to find a group for a Rad Relic run. 

So people either gave up, or burned out already(because of the multiple layers of RNG not working in their favor).

Is this really the sustainable content we were looking for ? What went wrong ? 

Idk about sustainable content, is it some kind of Unicorn?

Anyway I gave the ghost on my 6th lich... All I wanted from the first was Vengeful Shock Ephemera or Flame Ephemera. Plus as I play solo, I get amber stars from all my rad requiem relics. I had even made a thread about it in feedback. Honestly, imagine farming traces for a radiant relic to get 3 stars out of 4 relics in survival. Not my cup of tea. Not going back to it anytime before next year, when they have figured this mess out. 

[Chicken-Biryani]

15 minutes ago, Viges said:

Everything

lol, yeah ^

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Oh god when I read this elitist "stuff" it truly makes me vomit. 🤮

Not elitist at all. Elitism would be something like me asking for DE to lock off content to a specific 1% of players and be toxic about your skill in the game. That's not what I am saying at all here...

2 hours ago, VisionAndVoice said:

True that it was not elitism, still the original point is ridiculous. Just because you went under less-polished rules doesn't mean improvements must be cancelled forever.

I am not saying at all that DE can't hotfix, but does it really take a software engineer to go:

X*Y=Z where:

- X = average thralls per minute

- Y = thralls required

- Z = average time to complete all 3 Requiem Murmurs

Don't get me wrong, things like duplicates and that nature take player feedback to address, but I should not be pointed to as wanting the cancellation of improvements when DE can't do basic drop chance analysis. Ephemeras were 5% before the last hotfix. 5% for anywhere from 45 minutes to a few hours of grind per chance. If you have any basic understanding of math, that's horrible. Why do things ship like this? This isn't 2013, it's 2019. The games been out 6 years now and they make the same mistakes every single time. It's getting old. I see this happen to every single system in the game. Plains of Eidolon progression, Vauban Prime, Nightwave, Liches, Elite Onslaught, Bounties, The Void/Prime Parts, Aura Forma, Ephemeras, Fortuna, Vent Kids, Vox Solaris, the list goes on as long as I can remember.

It's fine to say "we messed up and we will fix this asap", but releasing content and conceding to "feedback" over a week later that playing the game is too much while also disrespecting the effort put in by many people is bothering me and probably other people too. I don't have much free time and I can't be the only one. It would be nice if DE did some better QA testing of time investments before shipping this stuff.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Voltage

[(PSN)Jack_Mahler]

Il y a 2 heures, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd a dit :

Once again this isnt elitism, please look up the definition and stop using duragatory insults

Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with an intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience—

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

2 hours ago, (PS4)chubbslawson said:

And they are fixing to release it on consoles still broken it sounds like. Good buisenes strategy 

Correct. I asked Danielle about it in the Xbox thread. What's more infuriating is the very next day it went into cert. 

If we get the new Lich changes before Christmas I'll be shocked.

[TheGuyver]

I lost interest when I realized I was just going to be spamming exterminate missions over and over and over again to farm 130 something thralls for murmurs. That and the only thing I truly despise doing in this game is farming void traces, and they built the relics right into the system without even having kuva as an option to charge them which would make sense. 

I give it about two more weeks before people either stop engaging in the system entirely, or are on here calling for new content because they traded for all their liches and did the bare minimum of work for the maximum amount of mastery to pleb their way to MR28. 

[DatDarkOne]

3 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Community in response to many threads: Just play solo.

Also community: Why is the star chart empty?

Sometimes I can't help but smile.

And yes, that is my serious response. Read people telling others to play solo on both sides of the "killing your lich" argument.

Well, you already know why I generally recommend solo play.  I make it no secret that I mostly play solo and that some aspects of the game are different while solo.  

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I've got other things to do in the game, I'll do liches when I feel like it. Got Brakk, in the process of finishing up the forma on it, then I'll just grind random mods, riven slivers and kuva with my relics to get traces to upgrade the normal ones I want items from. In between that I'll hit up arbitrations for vitus to buy more kuva.

Since I'm not really interested in the mastery from Kuva weapons I dont see a massive need in grinding them since I was only really interested in the Brakk. I'm not going to spend another 60 forma to finish up the other 12 weapons, not at the moment atleast. I doubt I'll be using the Brakk even, since my Catchmoon still serves me well when I need some quick range attack in my melee swinging. And for primaries it is even more pointless, since the ones I have equipped barely see any use as it is.

This pretty much represents my opinion as well. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

The risk:reward balance is all kinds of wonky for me as it relates to this content.

It's alot of grind and the reward isn't assured to be one you'll like.

Then it's a lot more grind to get the reward you may not have wanted only to start all the way back over to the point where the next reward you get isn't something you are assured to like or want.

Not to mention that because Murmurs are random so they deplete at different rates which, incidentally, loops you back to the first stage of grind.

I very much so like the concept and some of the rewards, the intent behind its' implementation feels unpleasant though.

Likewise, I am inclined to agree with @DeMonkey... The fact that the content makes players feel obliged to solo instead of group doesn't play in anyone's favor even though I am a strong advocate for suggesting players solo if they can't be considerate or get along with others in groups.

 

I would have rather seen them use Darvo to allow trade of Kuva weapons you don't want for Kuva weapons you do to keep all that work from going to waste but they appear to have all but completely monetized that option instead with trading.

There are upsides like having higher level normal missions but they aren't rewarding like one should expect a higher level mission should be.

I only have a very few weapons I actually want, don't care about ephemera all that much, and don't see myself bothering with this content after I acquire what I want.

 

 

[Wolfdoggie]

I only did 6 liches and basically burnt out for now and taking an extended break from it. Doing them solo got super boring so I did last one public till I got all 3 requiems and went back to solo but rare I'd get a full group, usually 1-2 people. At least we get Lv.100 maps now.

 

 

[mrpyro12345678]

I played a bit... and apparently everyone are on kuva missions. I think it's not that the interest was lost, but that everyone ran out of requirems XD

[FoxyKabam]

5 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I would have rather seen them use Darvo to allow trade of Kuva weapons you don't want for Kuva weapons you do to keep all that work from going to waste but they appear to have all but completely monetized that option instead with trading.

There are upsides like having higher level normal missions but they aren't rewarding like one should expect a higher level mission should be.

I only have a very few weapons I actually want, don't care about ephemera all that much, and don't see myself bothering with this content after I acquire what I want.

agree with all of this

 

trading liches makes very little sense lore/theme wise vs just trading weapons or even scrapping unwanted ones for kuva or something

to make it even more confusing, DE went and made a whole new room in the dojo for trading liches

the opt in "fix" we got feels cobbled together, just don't kill the larvaling, that will constantly keep respawning, cluttering up my screen with kuva guardians talking to no one, almost every time you do a 20+ grineer mission

maybe make a new node just for spawning liches?

and once I have a lich I'm stuck listening to it every time I log in; between the lich, nora, fake lotus whining about quests/ghouls and ordis, warframe could really use an ad-block

there's plenty more I could complain about, but that gets old quick

 

no part of this lich system we have currently feels thought out at all and just comes across as rushed to me, I'd rather not have it at all and just have the melee changes instead

[rending_melody]

They did nothing right, there's no reason why anyone would keep pumping time into a zero reward game. The issues were presented to them right from the start, but they either didn't care or just ignored them because it didn't align with their new "#*!% the community, we want money" attitude. I can imagine the meetings they are having over this where they are baffled about trying nothing to fix the system and for some reason getting poor results.

The thing that really concerns me is that for some reason they cant see what this failure is doing for their image. Wana know what people say about warframe now? That it was great, that is before the makers went full on mobile games with their money making crap.

[White_Matter]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

A few things that kill it for me:

• The grind for each lich is just too long.  I mean it's 2 to 4 hours per attempt at a single reward.  meanwhile if you compare that to other games they measure there attempts at rewards in minutes, not hours.
• You know immediately if the next 2-4 hours are going to give you something, or give you absolutely nothing.  When I pull another lich that has an Ayanga I'm not happy or excited, I'm demoralized because I know that the next 2-4 hours will reward me with nothing yet I have to do it anyways.
• It puts a halt to doing anything else.  If you're grinding your lich you can't grind prime parts, you can't grind void traces, you can't grind kuva, you can't grind parazon mods, you can't play arbitrations.  You have to choose "Do I run and play the game?  Or do I fight my lich?"
• The lich isn't engaging in any way.  The only thing that it does is steal rewards that I would never notice.  It doesn't add anything to the gameplay loop.
• The forced deaths just feel bad.  I'm not losing because I'm bad, or failed to deal damage, or not pay attention.  I'm losing because the game just decided I do and there is no way to avoid it.
• Their "duplicate prevention" fix doesn't do anything meaningful, and actually hurts the system.  After all say I want a higher bonus brakk, I have an 8.3% chance to even roll the brakk.  Then I have to hope its a higher percentage.  What happens though if I get a brakk with a lower percentage?  My next roll has a zero percent chance to get the brakk, meaning I need to go through a 2-4 hour grind with zero chance at getting what I want, and then I have the ability to start a fresh 2-4 hour grind with an 8.3% chance to get what I want.  Meanwhile it doesn't really stop duplicates as you can still get "Seer -> Brakk -> Twin Stubba -> Seer -> Twin Stubba -> etc..."
• It doesn't add anything new to the gameplay.  Even the mini-boss lich encounters don't have anything new or special to them outside of the "You're forced to lose!" mechanic that eats a revive and 10% of the affinity you've gained in the mission.
• Once you have the weapons there is zero reason to replay it.  The overly long time to kill with the low chances of getting the weapon you want makes it just not worth it to try to get a better bonus.

Once I get the remaining weapons I don't have I"m just going to ignore the system.
It simply doesn't add anything to the gameplay, isn't interesting, and is a demoralizing 2-4 hour grind in a loot system where other games measure their attempts in minutes.

I mean compare getting a good Brakk roll to getting a max roll Sham in BL2.  I will gladly spend a few hours grinding the sham because each attempt is short, sweet, and rewarding with more than one item given to me.  Sure the sham has a lower drop chance than a given lich weapon, but at least I'm not faced with an immediate "You don't get it this time, now grind for 2-4 hours so you can try again!"

The lich system is just so demoralizing in how it has its grind set up.

Don't know what to say I agree with all your points.

1st and 2nd points are just gamebreaking. Pretty discouraging I'd say. When you consider those, it is hard to find the incentive to play the content. Too grindy, and there is a chance(a big one) that you'll get nothing noteworthy after investing 2 hours of mindless grind.

3rd point is just insult to injury. Lich gameplay is excluded from everything else. Like you said, if you are playing Liches, then you are doing nothing else.

4th and 5th I can live with, but then you are 100% right. It is just lazy/mediocre game design with no intelligence put behind it. 

6th point I should also include in the gamebreaking aspects of the update. I mean the duplicate prevention is only good in the short term. Great, the next lich you'll summon will have a different weapon. The problem is, it can be the weapon from 2 liches ago. So far I'm @ my 3rd duplicate weapon (out of 7 liches) and all of the duplicates had 25% roll.