It only took 2 weeks for people to lose interest in Kuva Lich gameplay

[Anarbitrio]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

And to think the only way they could ever win is by making it so the player literally could do nothing to stop it.

Might as well implement that system in every game where the enemies can't win if the player is skilled enough or geared enough to win the game.

Mario Bros? Flagpole explodes and you lose a life when you grab it.

Doom? All your guns backfire and kill you instead.

The list can go on, after all everyone plays a game to lose right that would make those games better right?

A forced death isn't a win for anyone, it isn't a win for the player or the AI, or even the game designer.

This game isn't Mario Bros or Doom. There is no way to make an actual confrontation dangerous. This is the next best thing. The whole Tenno thing becomes meaningless if there is no actual threat in the entire universe.

[Ikserdok]

6 minutes ago, Aldain said:

And to think the only way they could ever win is by making it so the player literally could do nothing to stop it.

Might as well implement that system in every game where the enemies can't win if the player is skilled enough or geared enough to win the game.

Mario Bros? Flagpole explodes and you lose a life when you grab it.

Doom? All your guns backfire and kill you instead.

The list can go on, after all everyone plays a game to lose right that would make those games better right?

A forced death isn't a win for anyone, it isn't a win for the player or the AI, or even the game designer.

this reminded me an "pay to lose" in game Elder Scrolls Online for april fools as I remember

like in games toy have cash shops  so there is cash shop but mainly for cosmetics....and so in this year we added and "skin" for mount at not so low price which was funny but wait for this! you had disabled every upgrade you had leveled on your mount by using this skin...so you could jsut sprint faster than ride on this skin xD real pay to lose

and here we have fight to lose, seems logic now :v

if you want to play then lose after all, why not!

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

8 minutes ago, Anarbitrio said:

This game isn't Mario Bros or Doom. There is no way to make an actual confrontation dangerous. This is the next best thing. The whole Tenno thing becomes meaningless if there is no actual threat in the entire universe.

DE can easily create challenging enemies if they had their priorities straight but balance is also nanissue

[Aldain]

8 minutes ago, Anarbitrio said:

This game isn't Mario Bros or Doom. There is no way to make an actual confrontation dangerous. This is the next best thing.

You're right, this isn't Mario Bros or Doom, those have good mechanics that only punish the player for making an actual mistake, rather than arbitrarily because "We need to kill the player for reasons"

If THIS is the best idea they could come up with, then DE needs to have a long hard talk about what is actually important in their game.

[zoffmode]

8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

You're right, this isn't Mario Bros or Doom, those have good mechanics that only punish the player for making an actual mistake, rather than arbitrarily because "We need to kill the player for reasons"

If THIS is the best idea they could come up with, then DE needs to have a long hard talk about what is actually important in their game.

It's pretty clear that DE is trying to come up with enemies that are not immediately curbstomped. Thumpers, Orbs, Wolf, that weird infested apostle w/e his name and now Liches. They are all experiments. And yeah, I'd say only Thumpers worked out well so far. 

[Fire2box]

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

You don't get Kuva from Thralls, so getting 5,000 per attempt would be infinite thralls worth.

This thread is more recent than the Murmurs thing. It was posted about four days ago.

they won't give 5,000 kuva. there's a reason why DE keeps kuva gain in check. 

[Fire2box]

4 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

That's an arguably pathetic "reward".

Also, screw giving Kuva as a possible reward.

When it's not shared between pub players, yes. 

[Mach25]

On 2019-11-18 at 5:07 PM, MirageKnight said:

I think the right thing to do, right now, is say "We understand you all are a bit riled up right now, but we'll get back to you soon with some ideas for possible solutions."

Or, "We realize the system is a bit broken, so we'll be shelving as a whole it for now until we feel it's in a place where it should be."
Needless to say, feedback will have been evaluated, ideas tested and a reasonable product is brought forth.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Mach25

[Aldain]

Just now, zoffmode said:

It's pretty clear that DE is trying to come up with enemies that are not immediately curbstomped. Thumpers, Orbs, Wolf, that weird infested apostle w/e his name and now Liches. They are all experiments. And yeah, I'd say only Thumpers worked out well so far. 

I actually like Thumpers if you can believe it, I also didn't mind Exploiter (don't care for Profit-taker though).

I do want DE to figure out a way to avoid the issue, but scripted losses should not even be the last resort.

Besides, the Lich still does nothing to the player outside of that cheap death.

If they want ways to challenge the player they're going to have to think outside the box, or find ways to nerf the outlying issues that make difficulty trivial in the first place (then again look how people reacted to the Melee changes).

It just makes me sad when I see such painfully bad choices like this be done in games, it is like a bad user interface or any of the countless numbers of things EA has decided to do to their games (both in design and micro-transacting).

[Loza03]

6 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

they won't give 5,000 kuva. there's a reason why DE keeps kuva gain in check. 

They openly admitted 5,000 is subject, but Kuva is on the books as a lich reward.

[Fire2box]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

They openly admitted 5,000 is subject, but Kuva is on the books as a lich reward.

They talked about the nemesis system long before I even started playing in september 2017. DE saying stuff /=/ them doing said thing. 

[Ikserdok]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I actually like Thumpers if you can believe it, I also didn't mind Exploiter (don't care for Profit-taker though).

I do want DE to figure out a way to avoid the issue, but scripted losses should not even be the last resort.

Besides, the Lich still does nothing to the player outside of that cheap death.

If they want ways to challenge the player they're going to have to think outside the box, or find ways to nerf the outlying issues that make difficulty trivial in the first place (then again look how people reacted to the Melee changes).

It just makes me sad when I see such painfully bad choices like this be done in games, it is like a bad user interface or any of the countless numbers of things EA has decided to do to their games (both in design and micro-transacting).

dont forget about missions for grendel, these are also very interessing as for challenge

and I like mechanics of mentioned bosses as something different and interessing with challenge without pure brutal nuke

kuva liches are opposite of these bosses - so not so fun at all, not much interessing if even if we will exclude weapons for 1st time to lvl from them...with not challenge at all...we have literally no challenege on they, they are created like old enemies where only thing you need to defeat it it is just brutal mindless force but with addition of RNG to liches along with this idiotic deaths

the only challenge we have for kuva liches is need to get great gear, so something which we should already have or something for which every new player target - the best possible gear to have....so yeah..very veryyy!!!! challenging kuva bosses :v

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

10 hours ago, tyreens said:

Ok again. Free to play is only a different business model from pay-to-play but in the end the community still pays the bills. So the players can demand the same level of quality and professionality from such a large studio as from an aaa title. F2p is not an excuse for such behavior.

I rephrase :

• the quality of the content at console release is consistent with AAA paid DLC
• I'm OK with PC version being a full scale beta instead of a private test server (pros : you won't lose the stuff you've farmed). I agree that it could be more explicit.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

10 hours ago, Anarbitrio said:

[De]Steve explained the whole Lich process and the way it was intended to be explored at the exact time the patch was being released. He entertained the community with insight, his post-apocalyptic mouse, and his Halloween attire. Thanks [De]Steve.

You have the option of keeping your shards and dancing in a Tridolon Capture, preventing the rest from spawning the Eidolon. It's not intended, you can still do it, it's not "disabled" as you suggest. You can blame it on a "faulty" system if you wish.

You can queue up for T5 bounties and spend the whole time fishing. It's not intended, you can still do it, it's not "disabled" as you suggest. You can blame it on a "faulty" system if you wish.

You can queue up for sorties equipped with a hobbled key and spend the time taking scans of corpus cameras. It's not intended, you can still do it, it's not "disabled" as you suggest. You can blame it on a "faulty" system if you wish.

You have the option of letting your Lich chill on the defense point all game and prevent everyone else from spawning theirs for an indefinite amount of time. It's not intended, you can still do it, it's not "disabled" as you suggest. You can blame it on a "faulty" system if you wish.

You can play soccer with your friends, pick up the ball and tuck it under your shirt, then tell your friends to wait till the game is over and play with someone else. Then proceed to tell them that, if they don't want to play with people who hog the ball, to play soccer "solo" and avoid the risk. 

Doing something because "you can" or because it's not "disabled" is the bane of cooperative games.

In every example provided you can in the spectrum of a public setting of which you know nobody involved. 

[tyreens]

vor einer Stunde schrieb MonsterOfMyOwn:

I rephrase :

• the quality of the content at console release is consistent with AAA paid DLC
• I'm OK with PC version being a full scale beta instead of a private test server (pros : you won't lose the stuff you've farmed). I agree that it could be more explicit.

No, it is not a beta and no, the quality lately is not near what i expect from any game. It is a mess. 

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Great expectations imply great disappointements.

[Test-995]

3 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

• I'm OK with PC version being a full scale beta instead of a private test server (pros : you won't lose the stuff you've farmed). I agree that it could be more explicit.

It looks like they introduced lich for CS in current state tho

[DoomFruit]

8 hours ago, Anarbitrio said:

This game isn't Mario Bros or Doom. There is no way to make an actual confrontation dangerous. This is the next best thing. The whole Tenno thing becomes meaningless if there is no actual threat in the entire universe.

Yes there is a way to make confrontations dangerous. It's called rebalancing the game. The problem we have here is power creep and massive bloat in the form of umpteen zillion warframes and mods with various interactions that nobody bothered to think through. There's a very well-defined point at which this game's balance was fatally wounded. It's when corrupted mods got introduced. Before that, some team compositions gave more advantages than others, but that could theoretically have been fixed given enough attention. Note how Archwing, which was made from a completely clean slate where nothing carries over (except aura mods), is far better balanced than the main game.

Playing Russian Roulette with 1 empty chamber is not a solution. It's not fun, it's not a challenge and it is most certainly not a deserved loss.

[Aldain]

13 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Playing Russian Roulette with 1 empty chamber is not a solution. It's not fun, it's not a challenge and it is most certainly not a deserved loss.

^That.

And that is a founder saying it, not just some nobody like me.

[Chronometria]

11 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

Probably like every single feature in the past - released and forgotten.

I am still hoping they improve air support items like the sentry gun to work against enemies about level 30. Remember those? *cries*

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, Paradoxity said:

Like I've said- a couple of times- I'm well aware steam is bloody awful. Without access to more data, like hard numbers on standalone players- which we're unlikely to get- we can only work with what we've got, unless we're fine trying to use anecdotal evidence from the forum (Which is significantly worse). 

But let's go from the 18,000,000+ steam accounts on warframe (Sourced, no doubt, from here ). Because I agree- the numbers are going to be skewed by accounts that are registered and never touched (And, thus, shouldn't be counted). Where we get the number 18,000,000 is a little sketchy to me- the data is old and given the listed max peak (Again, on steam) of 87,616 (Source) players I think it's probably significantly high for basing active accounts on but we'll work with it (As it's the only hard numbers we have right now). Of those 18,000,000 we have 0.9% generating a lich. That'd be 162,000 liches created. We also have that 3.8% have reached at least MR17 (Which, again, at the risk of repeating myself, is not a good measure, and I'm more than open to anyone with a better system, using the hard data we have access to, in determining what does or doesn't constitute an active account). That's 684,000 players. 

The problem in adding the standalone is we don't have data for it. The only data we do have is they claim (In the slightly dated secondhand data here ) 50 million accounts. 

But, let's assume the standalone has the same relative numbers. That means of the standalone players we'd show roughly the same percentages of activity- that is, roughly 4% of players registered are actually playing. We know there are roughly 18,000,000 steam accounts, so it'd be 4% of 36,000,000 or roughly 1,440,000 active players. That would also mean roughly 1% have engaged with the lich content- so we're looking at 360,000 liches. It probably doesn't, but let's assume it does. that'd be 360,000 liches created from roughly 1440000 players on the standalone. This would total out to 522,000 Liches created by 2,124,000 players... or roughly 25%- the 1 in 4 I originally arrived at via just the steam numbers.   

EDIT: Sorry, this comes off as really confrontational, and it's not meant to be at all. I was just trying to show that, digging into what data we do have available past the steam numbers still leaves us at the  roughly 1 in 4 numbers we got initially. 

 

 

The thing is the 18m+ will never be removed even if we have more accurate numbers, because the 0.9% is based on those 18m+ soley. Steam doesnt care for active players so neither should we when it comes to Steam math. So in the end, the 1 in 4 you've come up with is pretty spot on. It may even be slightly higher because Steam counts everything from the game just being downloaded/added to library aswell as those that have simply tied their Steam account to their WF account. So there is this grey area where there are those who are "registered" by Steam but actually use the SA aswell as those registered by Steam and have never ever opened the game or created an actual account. So the 0.9% is probably higher among the actual real accounts that use Steam.

And the 1 in 4 is huge for content designed as "endgame".

[KIREEK]

To me nothing went wrong, made a bit of platinum, enough to cover the current update (like grendel if i ever wanted it) and already have sufficient for future updates, so i'm already griding for content that hasn't been released yet.

I enjoy the gameplay in said nodes altough i do notice less players, but to me it doesn't matter, i'm not the one getting carried in those nodes, so to me more or less players doesn't make much of a difference.

The grind is heavy, but i'm not quiting warframe anytime soon so i'll keep playing, you can probably see by my profile that i have endured more than the average player.

[Aadi880]

5 hours ago, tyreens said:

No, it is not a beta

Yes, it is a beta build (Still says it by DE themselves if you redownload the game again). A non beta build would mean there are little to no bug to fix which contradicts your same statement as "It is a mess", and everyone in the community knows that there are a ton of bugs left to fix.

[1st-1]

Hey, i want to talk about something nobody talked about
I played the last hour and did a few lich missions, 3 mission i had to leave because someone don't want to stab his lich (he's afraid to die.. oohhh.. so cuuuuute..) , and i don't even talk about all the insults i can see in the chat when it happen..

So.. thats all i wanted to say, i'm probably the only guy with that issue, uh ?

See ya IG tenno ! ❤️

[Corvid]

No.