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White_Matter

It only took 2 weeks for people to lose interest in Kuva Lich gameplay

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They did nothing right, there's no reason why anyone would keep pumping time into a zero reward game. The issues were presented to them right from the start, but they either didn't care or just ignored them because it didn't align with their new "#*!% the community, we want money" attitude. I can imagine the meetings they are having over this where they are baffled about trying nothing to fix the system and for some reason getting poor results.

The thing that really concerns me is that for some reason they cant see what this failure is doing for their image. Wana know what people say about warframe now? That it was great, that is before the makers went full on mobile games with their money making crap.

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1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

A few things that kill it for me:

  • The grind for each lich is just too long.  I mean it's 2 to 4 hours per attempt at a single reward.  meanwhile if you compare that to other games they measure there attempts at rewards in minutes, not hours.
  • You know immediately if the next 2-4 hours are going to give you something, or give you absolutely nothing.  When I pull another lich that has an Ayanga I'm not happy or excited, I'm demoralized because I know that the next 2-4 hours will reward me with nothing yet I have to do it anyways.
  • It puts a halt to doing anything else.  If you're grinding your lich you can't grind prime parts, you can't grind void traces, you can't grind kuva, you can't grind parazon mods, you can't play arbitrations.  You have to choose "Do I run and play the game?  Or do I fight my lich?"
  • The lich isn't engaging in any way.  The only thing that it does is steal rewards that I would never notice.  It doesn't add anything to the gameplay loop.
  • The forced deaths just feel bad.  I'm not losing because I'm bad, or failed to deal damage, or not pay attention.  I'm losing because the game just decided I do and there is no way to avoid it.
  • Their "duplicate prevention" fix doesn't do anything meaningful, and actually hurts the system.  After all say I want a higher bonus brakk, I have an 8.3% chance to even roll the brakk.  Then I have to hope its a higher percentage.  What happens though if I get a brakk with a lower percentage?  My next roll has a zero percent chance to get the brakk, meaning I need to go through a 2-4 hour grind with zero chance at getting what I want, and then I have the ability to start a fresh 2-4 hour grind with an 8.3% chance to get what I want.  Meanwhile it doesn't really stop duplicates as you can still get "Seer -> Brakk -> Twin Stubba -> Seer -> Twin Stubba -> etc..."
  • It doesn't add anything new to the gameplay.  Even the mini-boss lich encounters don't have anything new or special to them outside of the "You're forced to lose!" mechanic that eats a revive and 10% of the affinity you've gained in the mission.
  • Once you have the weapons there is zero reason to replay it.  The overly long time to kill with the low chances of getting the weapon you want makes it just not worth it to try to get a better bonus.

Once I get the remaining weapons I don't have I"m just going to ignore the system.
It simply doesn't add anything to the gameplay, isn't interesting, and is a demoralizing 2-4 hour grind in a loot system where other games measure their attempts in minutes.

I mean compare getting a good Brakk roll to getting a max roll Sham in BL2.  I will gladly spend a few hours grinding the sham because each attempt is short, sweet, and rewarding with more than one item given to me.  Sure the sham has a lower drop chance than a given lich weapon, but at least I'm not faced with an immediate "You don't get it this time, now grind for 2-4 hours so you can try again!"

The lich system is just so demoralizing in how it has its grind set up.

Don't know what to say I agree with all your points.

1st and 2nd points are just gamebreaking. Pretty discouraging I'd say. When you consider those, it is hard to find the incentive to play the content. Too grindy, and there is a chance(a big one) that you'll get nothing noteworthy after investing 2 hours of mindless grind.

3rd point is just insult to injury. Lich gameplay is excluded from everything else. Like you said, if you are playing Liches, then you are doing nothing else.

4th and 5th I can live with, but then you are 100% right. It is just lazy/mediocre game design with no intelligence put behind it. 

6th point I should also include in the gamebreaking aspects of the update. I mean the duplicate prevention is only good in the short term. Great, the next lich you'll summon will have a different weapon. The problem is, it can be the weapon from 2 liches ago. So far I'm @ my 3rd duplicate weapon (out of 7 liches) and all of the duplicates had 25% roll. 

 

 

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I'm actually doing them solo, but I agree the layers of RNG hurt the system badly. More so after getting constant repeated weapons.

Edited by Jarriaga
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So the complaints are I want everything now but it takes too long to get it so no one plays it?

 

so what your telling me is if you got all the guns you want you would play this system more?

 

Now a good idea I saw was being able to play other modes while still engaging the lich. I think if we could overlap fissure missions with lich spawns it would be a great upgrade. Just make the lich mission automatically turn to a fissure if one is on the node. Would also be good if your lich could not lose a node if it was a fissure.

Edited by BDMblue
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4 minutes ago, BDMblue said:

So the complaints are I want everything now but it takes too long to get it so no one plays it?

 

so what your telling me is if you got all the guns you want you would play this system more?

 

Now a good idea I saw was being able to play other modes while still engaging the lich. I think if we could overlap fissure missions with lich spawns it would be a great upgrade. Just make the lich mission automatically turn to a fissure if one is on the node. Would also be good if your lich could not lose a node if it was a fissure.

If I got all the guns I'd still go for ephemeras. 

And yes eventually we'll stop playing that particular content, like we've stopped playing other content because we farmed everything. What is the problem there ?

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Two weeks? I was over it in like three days and I hadn't even killed my first Lich..... mind you I had ground out all the Relics and the Murmurs and was actually having a bit of fun with the added difficulty of the Lich missions but between the stupid "I'm gunna steal ur stuff kek" mechanic that is somehow supposed to endeer you to the content by pissing in your cornflakes and the Paracesis Mechanic rearing it's ugly head again in the form of 13 new weapons that tie MR to Forma Investment...... that was enough to kill it for me. 

The only reason I ended up coming back is that I finally decided to just convert my first Lich.... (after leaving it sitting for two weeks with all the murmurs unlocked and the Requium waiting to be used) specifically because I didn't want to get the weapon because frankly hecc that noise, I don't want it in my foundry constantly allerting me I have a build ready nor do I want to have it blighting my Inventory. I'm just never going to make another Lich until things like MR being tied to Forma investment are changed. They can keep the bonus Mod Pool that's fine but don't tie MR to Forma. 

Since I have exactly ZERO interest in the weapons (By proxy of the forced Forma investment for mastery) there is literally no reason for me to interact with the system, since the system is completely avoidable...... I guess I'm just doing that.

Edited by Oreades
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6 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

If I got all the guns I'd still go for ephemeras. 

And yes eventually we'll stop playing that particular content, like we've stopped playing other content because we farmed everything. What is the problem there ?

If they integrated progressing lich into the regular gameplay loop (siphons, fissures, sorties, arbs) you wouldnt have to stop, you could farm your lich while playing warframe regularly. Wouldn't that be nice?

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It took me 2 seconds, i've been playing that game 4+ years now and up till atlas prime collected everything.

Now?

Can someone explain WHY would you even care about liches or their weapons?

Why care about another bunch of fodder weapons in a game with no endgame where those weapons will become irrelevant in a month? The heck I'm suppose to do with kuva weapons, go to Hydron? They dont even LOOK good, you dont care about their looks, its a 3rd person, jesus.

So freaking dumb.

Not to mention the whole system is one giant GRIND WALL, merciless and pointless. Working now 8 - 5/2 I see no point in participating in any of it.

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5 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

It took me 2 seconds, i've been playing that game 4+ years now and up till atlas prime collected everything.

Now?

Can someone explain WHY would you even care about liches or their weapons?

Why care about another bunch of fodder weapons in a game with no endgame where those weapons will become irrelevant in a month? The heck I'm suppose to do with kuva weapons, go to Hydron? They dont even LOOK good, you dont care about their looks, its a 3rd person, jesus.

So freaking dumb.

Not to mention the whole system is one giant GRIND WALL, merciless and pointless. Working now 8 - 5/2 I see no point in participating in any of it.

It's basically another job, but in this case u ain't getting money for it, just frustration.

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I had absolutely no problem finding groups for kuva nodes and T5 fissures, so I have no idea what OP is talking about.

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1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Ephemeras were 5% before the last hotfix.

Perfectly fine for something meant to be a rare bragging rights rewards in my book.

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Found another very annoying thing:
Don't play with mates. If you do not share the same missions on a planet, only the player selecting a mission will gain Lich aggression level.

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I can't speak for everyone, but I've held off of Liches since my third, as I find the system far too grindy, and am waiting for DE to implement some drastic changes before re-engaging with the system again (if only so that I don't have to deal with duplicate weapons). The latest round of updates in this respect I don't think has changed anything, as I have no desire to trade Liches, certainly not when there's the risk of traders asking for plat. DE seems to be doubling down on wanting us to get duplicates just for us to trade, while also maintaining an artificially inflated grind just to pump a few more hundred hours of play, regardless of its actual quality: because this grind is so egregiously disrespectful of my time and effort, it may be the first instance where I may refuse to go through it at all, until some drastic overhaul is implemented. It is quite possible I am not alone in this, particularly as Warframe's player count hasn't stopped dropping since the update.

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9 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I can't speak for everyone, but I've held off of Liches since my third, as I find the system far too grindy, and am waiting for DE to implement some drastic changes before re-engaging with the system again (if only so that I don't have to deal with duplicate weapons). The latest round of updates in this respect I don't think has changed anything, as I have no desire to trade Liches, certainly not when there's the risk of traders asking for plat. DE seems to be doubling down on wanting us to get duplicates just for us to trade, while also maintaining an artificially inflated grind just to pump a few more hundred hours of play, regardless of its actual quality: because this grind is so egregiously disrespectful of my time and effort, it may be the first instance where I may refuse to go through it at all, until some drastic overhaul is implemented. It is quite possible I am not alone in this, particularly as Warframe's player count hasn't stopped dropping since the update.

Well said.

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Not even spawned the first Lich on my side. Just not interested for some stale old weapons. I would probably engage with the Lich System if we can absorb their Juice. I mean they were created with Kuva. Why didnt we get any for slaughtering this maggots? Maybe 20.000 per Lich Level so that you get 100.000 Kuva at Level 5 just as an incentive to play it.

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14 minutes ago, ValinorAtani said:

Not even spawned the first Lich on my side. Just not interested for some stale old weapons. I would probably engage with the Lich System if we can absorb their Juice. I mean they were created with Kuva. Why didnt we get any for slaughtering this maggots? Maybe 20.000 per Lich Level so that you get 100.000 Kuva at Level 5 just as an incentive to play it.

This is exactly the kind of idea that makes me seriously question how DE could appear so excited to release what was basically a bare dress form of an update.

Kuva Liches as a system were released without so many obvious includes that it just boggles my brain to consider.

Liches as a potential kuva source. A way to track our Lich's current stolen item stockpile. Features to encourage coordinated/targeted play for expedited progress. Any kind of quest at all. 

The list goes on I'm sure, and it's unbelievably frustrating for me to consider because we have to remember that Kuva Liches only got one chance to impress the internet, and there is no getting that back.

DE talked so much about long-term investment, personal nemesis, emotional connection and a bunch of other stuff. Well where the heck is all that stuff? There was no quest with choices to make and no story mystery for the community to unravel, only piles upon piles of Pride and Accomplishment™. Every time I circle back to think about U26, I'm hit by another wave of realization about just how comprehensive a disappointment it is to me.

 

 

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I'm still doing Lich and collecting them, to give, or trade away, while looking for my last Kuva weapon(tonkor), or maybe an Ephemera, or increased stat bonus. However the majority of my play time is solo unless I am helping someone else.

I bet plenty are still doing LIch, but also in set groups, or solo.

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1- Solo is better (for me) - Soled all my lichs, did just some survives to tests murmurs income. Saw no reason to do in group.

2- I want my lich to spawn and not others, since I like to brute force the combination.

3- Got the last two remaining weapons with trade today, so no more reason to keep doing this crap content, it is not even profitable, with the time it takes to kill a lich a could have done more PL on others things (relics, vault, eidolon) and it is #*!%ing boring to do.

Edited by MPonder

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I lost interest within one week, although I'm still hunting for that specific kuva weapon I'm after, and ephermia.

They really dropped the ball with this update though, buggy as heck, burnout as heck, terrible direction with how they handled kuva liches and how it fits into the gameplay and lore (I'm honestly hoping future railjack updates will add more to kuva lichs like shown in Tennocon but my hopes arn't exactly there, heck I'm STILL waiting for more Fortuna additions and fixes from bugs that brought about.)

As for actually running lich nodes?  Unless a clanmate needs help killing their lich or we hunt down thralls together for easier requiems there's no reason to not run solo, killing or failing your own lich doesn't help anyone anymore. (it used to give requiem murmurs to everyone but not anymore)

Seriously, for the amount of time this took to come out, they coulda done alot better.

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I've played WF for six years and like it quite a lot. I have a deep and abiding distrust of Bungie because of my experiences with their customer service and the godawful games they made after Halo 3. The Old Blood was boring and frustrating enough to push me to download and try Destiny 2 to get my fix.

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3 hours ago, Skaleek said:

If they integrated progressing lich into the regular gameplay loop (siphons, fissures, sorties, arbs) you wouldnt have to stop, you could farm your lich while playing warframe regularly. Wouldn't that be nice?

It'd be pretty good. And I think Liches should have been like that from the start. The exclusive gamemod thing leads to a burnout pretty fast. The whole lich grind should have been a part of the rest of the gameplay, that'd make the grind more bearable.

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51 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

It'd be pretty good. And I think Liches should have been like that from the start. The exclusive gamemod thing leads to a burnout pretty fast. The whole lich grind should have been a part of the rest of the gameplay, that'd make the grind more bearable.

It's funny, if they had the requiring mercying a larvaling as an opt-in from the beginning, we'd probably have that.  But I'm guessing someone worried about the wrong part of liches intruding on normal gameplay (Once we already have a lich rather than before we have one) so instead of thralls spawning in regular missions and some high-level lich-specific missions, we got the completely-separate missions we have now. 

I'm assuming the thought was "Oh, if someone doesn't want to deal with their lich they can leave them at rank 1, never try to Mercy them, and leave just one mission on their initial planet affected and then it will barely bother them"  when really it would probably have been better like "Since making a lich is 100% on the player and cannot reasonably be done by complete accident, just throw thralls at them whenever because they already opted into this and said 'Yes this is a thing I want to happen to me'."

I've got one with a fun personality that I'm going to convert, but I just do not want to deal with a high-level Grineer hijack mission, I just can't be bothered so I'm just ignoring it until I guess I have nothing better to do.  But I can't really progress otherwise.

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Jokes on you, I quit on the first day and didn't even bother making my first lich.

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Reminder that the current state of Kuva Liches is just "barebones" -- there's still lots of things to be improved and done. Just give it time.

8 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Jokes on you, I quit on the first day and didn't even bother making my first lich.

Well, aren't you a little special and unique snowflake.

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I am starting to think DE holds the “Good stuff” of the lich system in Empyrean while The Old Blood is just here to counter “ConTEnT DRoUgHT” and collect DATA AND STATISTICS  while enduring the community backlash.

I still actively hunt liches because I am doing it to pass the time until nightfall arrives on Plains of Eidolon, because Eidolon hunting is the only thing that interests me in the game right now.

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