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It only took 2 weeks for people to lose interest in Kuva Lich gameplay


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Just now, saradonin said:

Bollocks!

Not stabbing ones lich, thus deliberately blocking others from progressing the mission objective is grieving and should be reported as such.

Going on the Rope-a-loli mission and not getting on the elevator is blocking mission progress. Avoiding your Lich is closer to freezing the reactor on a sabotage mission, and as such is not a punishable offense.

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So let me get this right. Take a worst kind of bad rng and the 3 ppl get put into same mission as the 1 that refuse to interact with his lich for 100 missions in row. Each time his lich is first to spawn so for 100 missions he block the 3 othere players and they are the toxic ones and not him ?

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3 hours ago, RobWasHere said:

People will call each other unless DE will make option for Lich to dissapear by itself. Joining public matches has only one purpose - maximize murmur farm. Whenever someone's Lich spawn, it will convert up to 9 Thralls around, but if it's owner refuse to stab it, other Liches wont spawn. Not stabbing them has absolutely zero benefit, you can't get free 10 Thrall murmur and others wont have a chance to get theirs (and extra Thralls each Lich provide), wasting time for everyone. Simply telling 'please stab it' its not toxicity if player dont know that they waste their and others time. Toxicity is when people actively bully others if they not comply.

You have 4 free revives. 5 or 6 with arcanes. 7 with Wukong. Warframe spoiled us over years and people are too afraid too die. It's not that we have limited revives per frame like ages ago. And it's not Arbitation

So, explain why this death is justified. What has the player done so wrong that they deserve to get killed?

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"Player is farming Murmurs" excuse
Liches give the equivalent to 10 Murmurs, some missions are short and give less than that so killing the lich will potentially save you a mission and may potentially save you from going into harder nodes such as defenses and mobile defenses, which have a greater probability of failure if a radiation lich appears

"players do not want it to get stronger or fight stronger enemies"
Both the kuva flood and the T5 Missions can have a greater difficulty, so you are now doing easier missions but since you already completed the T5 and the flood, you won't be fighting anything unreasonable, if you did the missions, you're ready for anything similar, period

"I just want to know the mods necessary"
Pointless since you don't know the order and so your lich will likely lvl up several times even knowing the right mods, this means that after all the murmur farming you will need several missions where you cannot get murmurs at all, by the time you know the right combination, the lich will be lvl 5, so congrats you only took around 5 more misisons than other players, wich is fine, some players want to be less efficient, slower, worse, only to complain in the forums about the grind. You are free to do so, no one takes you seriously.

"i'm farming relics"
At 5% drop chance there is a substantial probability of getting none after the mission, in comparisson, kuva flood has a 100% drop chance and the enemy lvl may be lower than the lich hunt mission you're doing, sometimes the kuva flood can be done faster even.
Even the kuva siphons (which are way easier) probably give way more relics per time spent than regular lich missions. Again, aiming to be less efficient is a thing.

I have a sugestion for the players trying to be less efficient, slower and that try to do things out of order, how about you impose this inefficiency on your clanmates instead, you are like minded so there should be no trouble if members of the clan do the same, this means you will help your clanmates do those 4 extra missions that are avoidable, then they do your 4 missions, then you help the other clanmate farm relics over and over again (to get the necessary 3 relics in 10 missions), then you jump to the other clanmate that just wants to know the order, so that means 20 missions at random, so on and so forth.

We are not imposing that you should forcefully kill the lich, we are merely telling you that it's easier, faster, more productive and that your gameplay affects everyone in the squad to the point we get closer to that stupid efficiency level and that you are doing things out of order and shouldn't be there.

If you are there, we will deal with it, we will do the mission, just don't expect the host to keep you on the next mission and just like you cannot be forced to kill it, the host isn't also forced to keep the squad, so disbanding it is allowed, like it or not.

Edited by KIREEK
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On 2019-11-17 at 2:23 AM, Paradoxity said:

So, going by the steam launcher (Yes, I know, that's not all players, but it's plenty enough for a  useful sample size), 0.9% of players have the achievement for creating a kuva lich. 

And also according to the steam launcher:

63.4% Solved a Cipher

58.8% Earned 1000 Credits

56.6% Found 1 Mod

... I have to disagree with on it being useful for a sample size.

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stopped reading posts after half of 2nd page

I have seen enough other threads, posts about stabbing, not stabbing liches and after reading that many selfish ignorants telling to others how everyone should play like them - so stab lich and gtfo - I only got more willing to not stab a single time my lich until I got even to 3 mods revealed, after 1st mod revealed lich will be almost fully enraged - so highest possible chance to be spawned and so what is going with it - my lich will have the highest chance to spawn on mission than anyone other stabbing their lich because their liches barely have rage meter over half as how often they stab it

ohhh how funny it will be to gather salt of these arrogants on mission 😈 maybe after it I will look at selfish idiot..but no, it wotn be selfish idiotism, it will be just very annyoing trolling for every player which want that badly to stab their lich

and what they could do me? report me? insult me more? nothing will change in anyones account state, this is just flawed system for which noone can ban anyone in this way as it doesnt stop to do an basic objectives of mission to be able to extract

 

Im curious now how much more these toxic players will even more toxic and salty for even minimal thing anywhere but Im sure screens from chat about their butthurt should be hilarious as we will be able to see in how many ways they can insult someone else xD

 

btw as for not stabbing single time lich it will be still 1lvl, so people have even no rights to tell you this lich is threat for mission 😆

Spoiler

post made by being bored of stupid arguments of blind/ignorant/arrogant people at same time with hatred to any other player who just want to play it in any other way then they want to

 

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From someone who dealt with 49 Liches and working on the 50th, i mostly find players spawning in faster Missions like Exterminate, Captures, and Sabotages. Sometimes i would find them in 5 Min long Missions like Survival and Defense. I had slowed down on the grind after getting Vengeful Charge (third Lich Ephemera i farmed) and all the Kuva Weapons after 34 of the Liches.

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I mean what did they expect? THe missions are disconnected from other activites. The Lich fights are excessively boring and most palyers won't really be keen on hunting them ad nauseum to get all the weapons with good rolls. Especially with trading now players will also opt to buy speciifc wepaons or Ephemeras so they don't have to farm the Liches for ages fighting aginst RNGesus the lord himself.

The LIch system lacks both unique or interesting gameplay additions. At best restricts options like the Lich being status immune or scripted one shot wrestling moves against squishier frames if they ever come close. Additionally the rewards do not make it rpeatedly fun to do as lower dmg duplicates are still worthless and for msot a little higher rolled weapons won't have them exactly burst in excitement.
Additionally the weapon pool doesn't cover everyone. Like only one melee weapon which is also probably the weakest weapon class right now because hammers and their 0.4 follow through basically suck at everything right now. Not everyone will lvoe the new Kuva options of existing weapons and so on.

Sowe have a very unpolished system with questionable replayability and situational rewards, no wonder the interest declines.

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21 hours ago, Avienas said:

I already have my planned out `personal guide`: 

  • Farm siphons first till i got around 10-40 of the relics in general.
  • Then do the fissures for the mods with only up to using maybe 1000 of my 1450 trace stock and rest i would just run intact with randos. Since i can already assume only one kuva fissure node will be active at a time. Especially since we still have a month or two if i remember right when `Ivara Prime` will drop and i am sure the hype train for her is going to be much huger then it was for Chroma.
  • Once sizable stock has achieved, such as 3-5 of each mod, then go thru liches in bulk to get thru it.

Relic system when it comes to chasing rare or even common parts always taught me one thing, fking mass stock first, then work on the actual 2nd phase farm, so i don`t need to keep bouncing back and forth on the same day just to keep getting one relic, only to get bummed out once that relic opens only to return back to farming the relic to repeat the gnawing migraine inducing bleh of a frustratingly designed grind.

Ultimately if D.E. does not add more loot to getting thru PER lich you kill(hence why i keep emphasizing that kuva liches should either give loads of kuva or multiply the resources they stole and give them back to you), i am very sure not many people will even attempt to do the liches after doing the initial tries, especially as more factions appear. Unless D.E. decides to pull some middle finger moves like making a `Kuva Lanka`, `Kuva Arca Plasmor` and `Kuva Lenz`, which are 3 highly coveted weapons for plenty of content and will likely make people cry as they go thru a tedious grind just to chase after that max roll version of X weapon in a pile of what could be a dozen or so weapons at launch.

The issue is that D.E. never really did a `actual` duplicate weapon system. You do not chase duplicates to have different loadouts, You do not chase duplicates because weapons have that magical durability system that pisses off many players, You didnt even chase duplicates to scrap them into weapon parts to improve your `main` guns, Throw in the fact one has to max grind the weapon, put a bunch of forma on it and then max grind it again each time to put more forma on it till its in a acceptable state for usage. Well its no wonder why people are stressed out on suddenly having to deal with liches with the same copy of the weapon they have and they cant scrap the lich asap to change to a different option, kind of why some of my posts were demands that D.E. should allow a side-mission with kuva liches to FORCE them to get a different weapon, so people can avoid getting duplicates alot easier. This B.S. that kuva liches will not roll the same duplicate weapon in a row will still mean it can roll a different duplicate then roll a duplicate of the previous weapon, which also gets in the way for people who want copies of the SAME weapon to get better % values for what weapon they are chasing to improve.

In terms of `duplicates`, we had weapon parts but we got the parts at the end of the grind, not getting the knowledge on what we are getting before the grind even starts. Plus you could still trade prime parts for plat or even scrap them for ducats and you easily got like one every 3-8 minutes per rotation on a fissure and things like wraith/vandal parts could normally be traded or even the bult variants in syndicates/baro`kiteer as long as you had not grinded them yet). Plus do not even get me started on how the weapons take 12-24 hours to build on plenty of them and sometimes absurd amounts of rare resources that likely got released the same day as said weapons got released in a few cases. Also as a reminder `relic system` also allows one to pick between up to 4 picks on what relics people brought, so people are already spoiled by generous systems to manipulate one`s RNG-sus rather extensively even if it requires the migraine of needing a full group also with the same relic you need and also at radiant tier, for maximum impact to get the rarest of loot from the relic.

P.S.: Console, especially PS4 can be quite a toxic beast when it comes to market chat and if anyone can trade liches as long as one of them has a clan with a `crimson branch`...oh wait, unless d.e. somehow wedges the 7th hotfix in to the already sent cert i believe, us consolers are gonna be stuck for WEEKS on not being able to trade liches. We will be spared the salt of shenigans with `kuva lich trading`, but it kind of means that console players kind of are half clucked on not having all the fixes for the kuva lich system so far.

Never the less, even when weapons have 1 out of 5 disposition, you would still have people who try to sell the stuff off for 300-600 or even more plat because its still a weapon with damage & crit chance or Crit dmg or some other damage stat and bloody has no concept of haggling. Plus i do not see people purposely buying plat to buy a bunch of kuva weapons, more along the lines that since a possibility exists, the salt could likely exist of people using it and likely your  going to have people pull the scam attitude since no market history exists and people will likely try to charge absurd amounts of plat just for the weapon itself and less about the stat line, which could likely just still get abused to get people to shell out lots of plat to these `scammers`. Plus do not say something like warframe.market, if its not a ingame feature, its likely plenty of `regular players` do not even make use of it and have zero idea it even exists, which means it cannot even get any accurate data on the actual playerbase pricing history averages and what not.

I mean, if one remembered the fiasco that was the Wolf Sledge marketing, then they kind of already know the kind of fiasco a absurdly annoying RNG-sus system can get on marketing. Especially since i do not believe that console players are going to use the marketing averages of pc (atleast not that much), to figure out how to price thar goods on the value. Plus if the plat costs for kuva weapons become dirt cheap, then the trade system(namely the demand for people to actually supply and post liches on market chat) falls apart and then people have to rely on generous people, likely clan mates, to chase after specific kuva weapons, which means a much smaller pool of people to draw from to get a specific kuva weapon and you would have to hope said person is generous enough to not demand alot of rare things if the elemental roll on it is VERY high.

Ultimately, Kuva weapons are basically the new fancy prime parts, A huge amount of tedious grinding on top of the regular grind one normally does for prime parts, once players get to be able to work on and likely if people do not research the stats, will likely be majorly disappointed on the weapon themselves if its kind of bad to them and then probably will scrap the weapon, not realizing they could of got 4k mastery from it instead of just 3k, meaning they have to farm it again. Which can then be a tiresome thing that people have to put 5 forma on even TRASH weapons just to squelch the weapon properly and then finally scrap it to not care about, only to cry when the kuva lich weapons get buffed, so they are then forced to chase after said weapon again while trying to chase for that high % roll, `again`.

 

You have some good points, I do however not see the real risk for the "scammers". It is one thing with extreme low drop weapons like those from ESO, but if someone is just after the weapon for the sake of getting the weapon it is very unlikely a "scammer" would be able to sell to them. The actual drop chance on the Kuva weapons is far far higher than that of weapons like the ESO ones. You have a 1/13 chance to get them initially, which following Liches increasing that chance and that is for a full weapon, built and everything.

And while 1 dispo rivens may sell for a few hundred, that is because they let you build further on far more important stats than just another 60% damage. Even on something like the Nikana you can cram out more crit damage than any other mod could provide you. That is what increases their costs. Kuva guns is one simple stats only and the difference between min and max roll is minimal in the end out of a pure power perspective.

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

You have some good points, I do however not see the real risk for the "scammers". It is one thing with extreme low drop weapons like those from ESO, but if someone is just after the weapon for the sake of getting the weapon it is very unlikely a "scammer" would be able to sell to them. The actual drop chance on the Kuva weapons is far far higher than that of weapons like the ESO ones. You have a 1/13 chance to get them initially, which following Liches increasing that chance and that is for a full weapon, built and everything.

A scammer could easily be one who is charging more plat then what the `normal price could be`, not just someone who tricks the player out of thar plat so they get no item. You have to recall there are atleast 5 or so rng-sus factors to chase after the item plus one you cannot control on what weapon the lich gives out and one on how high the % the weapon`s elemental bonus can have. Practically Riven mod pressure where you could have 5 people selling the exact same riven and that number could fluctuate between 100 to 2000 plat, depending on how informed the `seller` is and how `greedy` they can be for how much they want to get out of it.

Throw in the fact it can take several hours to prepare and what could be a hour or two to get thru a few liches after all that prep work, especially if you plan to chase murmurs first to figure the signs to save some guess-work trouble. Well, impatient ones are gonna clearly take the lazy option, if they keep ramming into weapons they do NOT want and cant get weapons they REALLY want. Maybe if more modifiers exist like having the lich at a higher level will give a higher % elemental value, then it might not be as much of an issue though.

Quote

And while 1 dispo rivens may sell for a few hundred, that is because they let you build further on far more important stats than just another 60% damage. Even on something like the Nikana you can cram out more crit damage than any other mod could provide you. That is what increases their costs. Kuva guns is one simple stats only and the difference between min and max roll is minimal in the end out of a pure power perspective.

The fact that disposition can easily change to ruin the values of those rivens to begin with. Which likely is going to be further ruin where D.E. now have riven dispositions split up on weapon variants. Hopefully they are keeping it to where you can use the same `named weapon` in the same family, just the disposition values would be different, But there is honestly very few weapons one would use the REGULAR VERSION, when compared to the variant version sadly and we all know you could have disposition 10 out of 5 and still people would likely not touch weapons like the Cronus that much with that much of a disp bonus, when compared to other weapons which are vastly more superior on thar base stats.

Never the less, one is not doing the content to get more rewarded, they are basically being forced to dice roll dozens of more times, even after they obtained all the weapons, because d.e. could not create a legitmate reason to chase the kuva liches, like them giving sheet tons of kuva, as a end-game like option for working on rivens and kuva stock. Because if what i heard from the achievement list on Steam for warframe, the number of people who are clearing kuva-lich achievements, is absurdly low in the % values. 

Edited by Avienas
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2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Completely agree.

Alternately, it could be made that the Lich just doesn't spawn in public missions. 

Then people will complain murmurs are harder to grind as they have no friends or clanmates. DE can't win this one as the laziness and entitlement around this system is unprecedented. DE has harbored an anti party environment for years making it so easy to leech an go unpunished and it's expected for you to pull their weight and have no say in the matter, what is tolerable when it's eso as you just need their frame for more mobs to spawn, but in Eidelon hunting, arbitration's they can screw you royally and can do nothing about it. Because the default answer to all this is "just play solo" because they will not implement a kick system or let us use the ignore function to never have to play with people we deem undesirable again.

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i spam public murmur alot(killed 8 liches so far,working on 9 soon) and i never seen someone complaining about people not killing liches,in fact most people in asia server,at least that ive played with,welcome it since it brings more thrall to mercy kill,also i never seen player forced to kill a lich,it is encouraged but never forced to the point where people capslock rage till the player try to kills the lich

 

people that usually dont like it will left/disband if its the host after the mission,never just capslock rage at the chat

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This system should go more in the direction of "You Vs Lich" and not murmur farm simulator. The lich fight in boring and easy, they should make it moreeeeeeee difficult than it is (I mean a better fight, and not just a big sponge HP mob), they fix this thing and encourage you to stab more. Liches should target the player and not their Kavat xD, give gap-closes to all lichs and grab in a combo, and make everything bypass Effective HP, because Iranos everywhere, also Liches are just too fragile in the first levels, their defense should be a little better in the beginning.

But there are some people *@##$ing that they can't see their char dead. It is dumb to die to RNG, but it is worst to grief a public party that you wanted to go in. Make Liches solo/invite only and just give a opt-out for generated LIch on first lich only, so new players don't get screw over.

Edited by MPonder
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Both sides are right IMHO.

The system is broken need ASAP change in the logic and behaviour, time, etc. How the liches arrive and stay.

On the other hand if the only solution to get rid of them is to kill them, and also allow other player's to collect their/more Murmur, we don't really have a chance /due to the fact that that system is broken and this is the way D.E. built it right now, to actually logical to only kill it.

Death or no death kill them please.

Edited by 40PE
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I'm not bored with it. It is just the biggest grind on WFs history /apart of rails maybe/

Until they lower the grind, I just won't bother.

And the 5 formas in kuva weapons? I won't bother with these either.

Edited by 40PE
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When I want to kill my lich. but another player is holding a lich spawn out and refuse to kill it? You know what I do? I finish the mission then do another mission! I don't tell someone else what to do in their match, if I don't like it, I move on. For example I hate playing with speed Novas, so at my first opportunity I leave. I don't make a fuss out of it.

Everyone has a right to play the way they want, no one has the right to tell someone else how to play... If the behaviour is of a griefing nature, then you are free to report it and let DE deal with it.

But as people have said, what is to blame is the Lich system... There is zero incentive to stab your Lich and level it up and make things potentially harder for yourself and others for no additional reward. I can handle lvl 100+ enemies, but considering the frequency at which people leave my hosted games when dealing with a lvl 5 lich as opposed to a lvl 1 or 2.. It makes zero sense for me to make things harder for people joining my matches.

The thing is there is zero incentive to level a lich. Faster murmur acquisition isn't worth the higher difficulty you can end up with... However if you add a small % bonus to the elemental bonus you get for finally defeating your lich every time it levels up... That may provide the lich over a better incentive to attempt to kill it. Otherwise why bother with more difficulty when the reward stays the same?

 

 

Edited by Skye_Archer
typo
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If a player doesnt want to stab hes lich when that player should not run public thrall hunt .

You do understand what a single player can force to bend other players to hes or hers will just by ignoring the lich right ? this is simple can considerd as griefing or trolling , hell it can turn out right into provocation wich leads to toxicity , so yes it is the players own fault for ignoring the lich .

Now why should the player who ignores the lich not use publich matachmaking and not the other way around ? , simple awnser , its because of how the lich system works .

Players own lich can only appear in node wich lich controls , meaning that if lich hunting player would to make their own party all 4 of the players would need to check nodes for lich after each mission , and if one player or more doesnt have the same node with the lich that or more players will be waisting their time looking for their own lich .

I think you can imagine how tedious and inconvenient this is , all of this time consuming work can be easilly skiped using publich matchmaking 

 

TL:DR - Players who dont poke their lich should go solo or make private party because they are the source of the problem .

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3 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

And also according to the steam launcher:

63.4% Solved a Cipher

58.8% Earned 1000 Credits

56.6% Found 1 Mod

... I have to disagree with on it being useful for a sample size.

Scroll down a bit. There's a comparison to the fraction of players who have reached rank 18.

On 2019-11-17 at 5:23 AM, Paradoxity said:

So, going by the steam launcher (Yes, I know, that's not all players, but it's plenty enough for a  useful sample size), 0.9% of players have the achievement for creating a kuva lich. 

0.9%. less than 1% of players on steam have created a lich for any reason. I'm not gonna speculate on what that number would be if the opt-in mechanic had been in place originally in  it's current form.  

3.5% have reached at least MR18 (Gold Eagle). MR18 serves as a fairly useful baseline because it indicates at least some level of commitment to Warframe. (also it's the first one that  pops up on my own achievement bar on steam, so... eh.) I'm aware that the % goes down as the rank goes up (2.3% of players on steam have Dragon, for example- MR22) but there's a lower bound we have to establish to include newer players, so. Yes, I'm aware it's arbitrary, and if someone comes up with a better metric for determining active vs. inactive players, I'm all ears. 

That's a significant difference in terms of player engagement- effectively, 1 in 4 players on steam of MR18+ have even created a lich. That's pretty terrible, especially for something that was  supposed to be a major content drop. Frankly, that's downright atrocious.

(emphasis mine)

 

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1 hour ago, roekenny said:

Then people will complain murmurs are harder to grind as they have no friends or clanmates.

Truthfully? DE would probably increase either thrall spawn or their murmur value to compensate.

Even if they didn't... The inane bickering and finger-pointing at each other changes to pointless whining at not being able to take advantage of the previous mechanic.

I call that an improvement.

   

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