Player-negative vs player-positive experience

[DesertEagle1280]

Hopefully your internal discussions are addressing the concept of player-positive vs player-negative rewards.  Without a way to guarantee progress, for example merging weapons to boost %, or somehow behind the scenes forcing future drops to never be lower than the same weapon/ele combo we already have, the chance to get "rewards" that we have to grind for, that also cost us requiem uses to unlock that lack any perception of player gain, is absolutely unacceptable.  Again, I know I sound like a broken record but I propose the following:

Valence transfer can up the ele % - that would make getting repeat crap rolls more stomachable - eg get 25% and 27% seers, the combined form keeps the forma/exilus progress, and goes to 35% ele instead of 25 or 27, that way getting duplicates that are equally crap (or maybe even worse variants) isn't so much of a waste of player time. Then say you get another 28% seer, combine that, and your "master" weapon goes to 40%, etc.  This would allow player agency to improve their weapon mitigating some of the RNG frustration, keep duplicate liches relevant longer giving the whole system longevity, and maintain the covert/kill decision relevancy for longer as well.

Otherwise, even with murmurs going faster, it's hard to feel good about grinding for a turd when you get low % elemental rolls.  Speaking of, I'd say murmurs could be improved a little, maybe set it to 30/30/50 or 30/30/30 instead of 30/30/70, but that's less important as progress is progress.

Also, what if we also took a maxed disposition weapon out of the spawn rotation?  Like say you get 5 cold seers, by combining them you wind up working up to a 60% or whatever max is cold seer.  From that point on, you have a 0% chance to spawn a lich with a cold seer (could still proc rad seer or toxic, etc by choosing to use a different frame for that element).  In terms of lore, maybe say the lich knows through kuva-magic of it's brethrens failure to off you with the cold seer, so they refuse to try again with a weapon that has proven a failure.

This would encourage people to keep playing even when they keep getting the same, because not only will it always make their existing one better (whether higher or lower % roll), but it also gives a finite amount of repetition where by completing the weapon you guarantee other drops. Added to my intial suggestion of a guaranteed improvement to ele % it means every lich would guarantee progress in some way - either improving a weapon you have, or spawning a weapon you don't. 

I genuinely sympathize with your needs to balance longevity, replayability, etc - and I don't envy y'all the job you do trying to balance all this.  However, I think the heart of the matter is that the only way this system will work, long term, is that it must be perceived by players as being player-positive.  The possibility to get 100% "unrewards" is purely and simply player negative.  If I have a 34% cold seer, and my next lich is a 28% cold seer - what is supposed to make me want to grind for that?  Trying to trade it hoping that someone wants such a bad roll?  That's really the only thing I can do with it - vanquishing it serves no purpose, and I don't really care to convert and trade for a long shot of anyone wanting it in addition to forcing me to use requiem charges (a limited and RNG controlled element in it's own right) for something that doesn't benefit me at all.  That lich would be a purely player-negative experience, I would be effectively punished for putting time/effort into your systems and your game. 

Using my solution above, every drop no matter how bad, can be a step forward, which is player positive, a net gain even if a small one.  It maintains the longevity and replayability that y'all seem to want, if not even making it MORE so - someone with a 54% rad karak for example, wouldn't want another Karak most likely, since it's almost guaranteed to be a lower roll.  Under my system, they'd be happy because theirs would get better up to max.  From the players side, it means there is never a point where a lich is a step backwards, an obstacle that gives them no progress at all.  There will be a long term engagement of the system because it is always rewarding in some way, shape, or form.

I'm not against grind, against taking time to gain the best reward - I'm only against wasting player time and punishing player effort with liches that represent 0 reward for time invested and resources cost, and for the system allowing the best rewards to be realistically attainable.  Working to eliminate player-negative experiences should be the forefront of DE's effort, IMO, or better yet, not introduce them in the future.

Edited November 15, 2019 by DesertEagle1280
Had a double negative

[tussletoes]

I'm hardly the first person to talk about how disheartening it is get a new lich that has both a dupe weapon and a lower stat bonus than you previously had, and, to be honest--I don't think trading really addresses this issue, either, since some players may not even be planning to trade at all.  I love the lich system in the sense that it makes use of nodes all over the Origin system, and makes the game world feel more alive, plus I like the gameplay loop of figuring out mods and fighting the Lich (aside from being forced to get suplexed to death in order to make progress).

I know balancing this out is harder than it seems, especially for the team at DE, but I figured I'd throw in my two cents. When I first heard of the weapon fusing mechanic, I thought we'd get a chance to fuse two weapons' stat bonus, and--instead of replacing one weapon's bonus with the other's--have a choice to fuse a lower stat weapon for a small stat increase. How small it should be, I think, depends on how the team wants to balance it out, but I'd say even a 10% stat increase would be a good enough incentive to power through a lich, if you like a Kuva weapon well enough (and I've loved most Kuva Weapons so far.)

It wouldn't be the biggest change in the world, but I think it'd be that small push people need to make it through an unwanted lich, and not make it feel like they're wasting their time. Kind of going through that right now.

[Senguash]

12 minutes ago, DesertEagle1280 said:

the chance to get "rewards" that we have to grind for, that also cost us requiem uses to unlock that lack any perception of player gain, is absolutely unacceptable.

Why do you think that's unacceptable?

It doesnt seem unreasonable to me. Part of the idea in having rng in systems like this is to make it feel less grindy, and make it more interesting by forcing you to consider options you wouldn't otherwise have by the rng you happen to get.

The underlying problem is that you aren't having enough fun farming liches and that the lich missions are dedicated towards that one objective so you can't just have fun with something else when you focus on the lich.

I don't approve of asking for ways to reduce to amount of content provided instead of improving the content.

You can't say you're not against grind when your ideas main purpose is simply to reduce grind.

[grindbert]

tl:dr : it's a content-stretching bullS#&$ slot machine. 

 

[DesertEagle1280]

3 hours ago, Senguash said:

Why do you think that's unacceptable?

I say it's unacceptable because it's grind with no reward.  Any game that is attempting to motivate positive feedback loop (which is what encourages people to continue to engage systems - keep playing, spend more plat, etc), needs to ensure the players time is rewarded, in some way/shape/form.  Ie spending hours unlocking a lich with a crap percentage roll with the knowledge that I can melt it into my existing bangstick x to make my last drop which was a meh % drop better than it is currently - that provides positive feedback for the time/resources invested ergo a player-positive experience, but still a grind

If I am not rewarded at all for my grind, it makes me question why bother investing further time and resources (virtual OR real money support because I'm enjoying the game)?  If the I'm not making progress why am I spending my time playing this game?  If I am wasting my time on this game, why would I support the developers by investing real money in their company?

I can easily say I'm not against the grind - I don't mind the rng of getting relics, then the rng of opening them to get requiems, then the rng of what a lich spawns with IF it is a net positive gain for all the grind.  I am against any grind just for the sake of saying "I ground".  

It's like saying, you can not mind going to work for a paycheck, but would you work 40 hours a week at your job for free, without any reward whatsoever even though you still spent resources (say gas to get to/from work every day)?  Again, I don't mind spending my limited time and resources towards a long term reward - I do have a problem spending my limited time/resources running on a hamster wheel where the work I put in doesn't result in any reward at all.  If someone just wants to run missions and doesn't care about the reward, they don't need months of development for the lich system to run starchart nodes till they're blue in the face.

DE put a ton of work into the lich system, and I am passionate in my criticisms because I believe it can be the best thing to happen to WF in years - but only if it is a player-positive experience.  Useless rewards are not player-positive.