LICH EPHEMERA

[IvanMortem]

After the recent Hotfix those lich ephemeras have now become invisible when equipped on companions. If you've transformed this bug into an actual feature should be priority to fix that effects are not shown. Also as a suggestion i would like to ask if you could put the ephemera name in the UI when a Lich spawns with it to know better which one is and avoid problems when using a dark or bright scheme on the UI.

[[DE]Rebecca]

This will be fixed up next Hotfix!

[AngelWednesday]

Could we have a slider to make the ephemera either less or more intense on pets and sentinels please?

Or will they be put back to how they where before the latest patch.

I was hoping to make an electrified looking Kavat. 😁💖

[GmG-ITA]

3 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This will be fixed up next Hotfix!

sorry for the ot

we can get an answer if you are aware of the kuva larving not spawning bug

 

[CuChulainnWD]

27 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This will be fixed up next Hotfix!

Any chance you will break radio silence and give us a real update before Friday addressing why all of our feed back has come to nought? Honestly this latest update has been a bit of an insult. It's really starting to break my heart to see the direction things are going. Give us some REAL tangible news regarding how DE will be making sure that the LICH system is done right, complete and near polished BEFORE it gets swept under the rug when Empyrean is released.

Honestly, I am starting to worry about what Empyrean, and Duvari Paradox will be like if the Nemesis system is any indication to go by. Your community good will is eroding.

Edited November 15, 2019 by CuChulainnWD

[Moomabo]

39 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This will be fixed up next Hotfix!

What about how stealth kill bonus affinity has been broken since Oct 9th? Is that even on your radar?

[[DE]Rebecca]

1 hour ago, AngelWednesday said:

Could we have a slider to make the ephemera either less or more intense on pets and sentinels please?

Or will they be put back to how they where before the latest patch.

I was hoping to make an electrified looking Kavat. 😁💖

No sliders, but they will be more vibrant.

1 hour ago, GmG-ITA said:

sorry for the ot

we can get an answer if you are aware of the kuva larving not spawning bug

 

Yup, merged these, we are investigating!

1 hour ago, CuChulainnWD said:

Any chance you will break radio silence and give us a real update before Friday addressing why all of our feed back has come to nought? Honestly this latest update has been a bit of an insult. It's really starting to break my heart to see the direction things are going. Give us some REAL tangible news regarding how DE will be making sure that the LICH system is done right, complete and near polished BEFORE it gets swept under the rug when Empyrean is released.

Honestly, I am starting to worry about what Empyrean, and Duvari Paradox will be like if the Nemesis system is any indication to go by. Your community good will is eroding.

The contents of this comment are hyperbolic which makes it hard to engage with in good faith. I hope you will tune into our next Devstream where we are able to speak to the numerous things people have brought up on a large platform to reach as large an audience as possible. The major remaining things we see are pacing/commitment, RNG, and co-op friendliness which we will discuss openly.

[Skaleek]

24 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

The major remaining things we see are pacing/commitment, RNG, and co-op friendliness which we will discuss openly.

I know its tacky to basically wedge myself in a thread you respond to, and so let me start by apologizing for trying to get my thought in after the fact so to speak.

Regardless, any chance you could also discuss the possibility of integrating the kuva lich grind into the regular gameplay loop? (fissures, siphons, arbs, sorties) Thereby creating a more passive system that allows us to go about our day to day while still progressing our lich? I have honestly felt this is the way Warframe has always headed. You get random stalker, g3, sentient, syndicate, zanuka invasions in missions. Why can't the lich system expand upon this concept? Why segregate this system into its own corner?

You don't have to respond as i realize this sets a dangerous precedent when responding to community feedback. Just talk to the devs about it, thanks Rebecca!

Edited November 15, 2019 by Skaleek

[CuChulainnWD]

38 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

No sliders, but they will be more vibrant.

Yup, merged these, we are investigating!

The contents of this comment are hyperbolic which makes it hard to engage with in good faith. I hope you will tune into our next Devstream where we are able to speak to the numerous things people have brought up on a large platform to reach as large an audience as possible. The major remaining things we see are pacing/commitment, RNG, and co-op friendliness which we will discuss openly.

They are hyperbolic because you have a community that cares, and a Dev team that has asked for feed back which has been provided in spades. DE has sat on our feed back for 2 weeks now, and have had 2 years to make this game mode happen. Much of our feed back has been clever, insightful and viable. The lack of comms on your end is fueling discontent.

Me personally I have no drive to play the Lich system anymore when I see DE taking similar paths as Bioware and Bathesda. Bioware "accidentally" made their game into an enjoyable looter shooter in an update, which they promptly turned off. DE what did you do recently? Turned off Lich Kill Murmur sharing. I know you addressed it passingly Reb, but nothing has been said since. The similarities to Bathesda, is releasing this game mode in as bad a shape as it is in, and then introducing yet more monetary transactions into the equation. That is putting the cart before the horse, and DE you are/were better than that.

The problems we the community have pointed out to you should have been addressed immediately as they directly influence replay-ability and enjoyment. Instead you give us a trading system which brings money into the equation, when there are still LARGE glaring issues with the game holding it back from being as great as it can be.

Waiting yet ANOTHER week to address them comes across as indifference and sweeping it under the rug, especially given that you wish to send this to consoles, and Empyrean and Duvari are around the corner. For once will DE not see something to completion, as polished as it can be that will bring you a viable financial gain, and the community something that is both a challenge, and entertaining whilst being replayable? Our feedback addresses many of those very points.

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by CuChulainnWD

[[DE]Rebecca]

18 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

They are hyperbolic because you have a community that cares, and a Dev team that has asked for feed back which has been provided in spades. DE has sat on our feed back for 2 weeks now, and have had 2 years to make this game mode happen. Much of our feed back has been clever, insightful and viable. The lack of comms on your end is fueling discontent.

Me personally I have no drive to play the Lich system anymore when I see DE taking similar paths as Bioware and Bathesda. Bioware "accidentally" made their game into an enjoyable looter shooter in an update, which they promptly turned off. DE what did you do recently? Turned off Lich Kill Murmur sharing. I know you addressed it passingly Reb, but nothing has been said since. The similarities to Bathesda, is releasing this game mode in as bad a shape as it is in, and then introducing yet more monetary transactions into the equation. That is putting the cart before the horse, and DE you are/were better than that.

The problems we the community have pointed out to you should have been addressed immediately as they directly influence replay-ability and enjoyment. Instead you give us a trading system which brings money into the equation, when there are still LARGE glaring issues with the game holding it back from being as great as it can be.

Waiting yet ANOTHER week to address them comes across as indifference and sweeping it under the rug, especially given that you wish to send this to consoles, and Empyrean and Duvari are around the corner. For once will DE not see something to completion, as polished as it can be that will bring you a viable financial gain, and the community something that is both a challenge, and entertaining whilst being replayable? Our feedback addresses many of those very points.

 

Yup, I completely respect your care, and it's a challenging situation when 'all game devs are bad and only want money' rhetoric enters the conversation. As I mentioned, the major remaining things we see are pacing/commitment, RNG, and co-op friendliness which we will discuss openly.

It's a gamer's prerogative to say 'You're being like Bioware and Bethesda!!!', but it's really hard to engage with constructively. Do you have feedback on the things I mentioned? Trading Liches was something that was meant to ship with Liches as we indicated on streams that you'd be able to trade them, but it came 11 business days later. which has had a lot of thrash (pros and cons). To set expectations, you may indeed to wait another week for comprehensive addressing of more macro commentary from our goals and intentions (plus a lot of data!), but there will definitely be hotfixes inbetween.

(Duviri is no where near around the corner, btw)!.

[Talinthis]

12 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Yup, I completely respect your care, and it's a challenging situation when 'all game devs are bad and only want money' rhetoric enters the conversation. As I mentioned, the major remaining things we see are pacing/commitment, RNG, and co-op friendliness which we will discuss openly.

It's a gamer's prerogative to say 'You're being like Bioware and Bethesda!!!', but it's really hard to engage with constructively. Do you have feedback on the things I mentioned? Trading Liches was something that was meant to ship with Liches as we indicated on streams that you'd be able to trade them, but it came 11 business days later. which has had a lot of thrash (pros and cons). To set expectations, you may indeed to wait another week for comprehensive addressing of more macro commentary from our goals and intentions (plus a lot of data!), but there will definitely be hotfixes inbetween.

(Duviri is no where near around the corner, btw)!.

keep on with the great work Reb, the vocal ones that dislike everything are always the loudest. tons of us appreciate everything you do and we know how difficult it is to balance something perfectly. It can be frustrating having people complain about absolutely everything you ever do

[Urlan]

24 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

It's a gamer's prerogative to say 'You're being like Bioware and Bethesda!!!', but it's really hard to engage with constructively. Do you have feedback on the things I mentioned? Trading Liches was something that was meant to ship with Liches as we indicated on streams that you'd be able to trade them, but it came 11 business days later. which has had a lot of thrash (pros and cons). To set expectations, you may indeed to wait another week for comprehensive addressing of more macro commentary from our goals and intentions (plus a lot of data!), but there will definitely be hotfixes inbetween.

(Duviri is no where near around the corner, btw)!.

Fair enough I think, no one wants to be compared to companies that do openly corrupt and creatively devoid things while also breaking promises as the case with both EA Bioware and Bethesda. Who would DE consider their peers? I know from Leyou's last statement about the subject that Bioware, Bethesda, and Bungie were name dropped, but I honestly wouldn't want to be associated with such negative earned PR.

I have figured that things shown in Tennocon are not representative of immediately "Soon", but I appreciate the confirmation to not expect it anytime in the real soon. Good information to have to shape further expectations.

[Sohaya-]

44 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Yup, I completely respect your care, and it's a challenging situation when 'all game devs are bad and only want money' rhetoric enters the conversation. As I mentioned, the major remaining things we see are pacing/commitment, RNG, and co-op friendliness which we will discuss openly.

It's a gamer's prerogative to say 'You're being like Bioware and Bethesda!!!', but it's really hard to engage with constructively. Do you have feedback on the things I mentioned? Trading Liches was something that was meant to ship with Liches as we indicated on streams that you'd be able to trade them, but it came 11 business days later. which has had a lot of thrash (pros and cons). To set expectations, you may indeed to wait another week for comprehensive addressing of more macro commentary from our goals and intentions (plus a lot of data!), but there will definitely be hotfixes inbetween.

(Duviri is no where near around the corner, btw)!.

I understand that game development takes time... but the lack of transparency at times can be... frustrating to say the least. Sometimes, when the community is bursting with rage at certain issues, the lack of transparency after that is quite off putting, even though you are one of the more transparent developer teams out there.

As for the whole monetary transaction thing, Lich trading is the equivalent of slavery in this game. It's not that great. Maybe force Lich trading to have to include another Lich? Whatever the solution to this is, wouldn't mind you sharing more on your plans.

[Monolake]

I hope you are working on a way to make lich missions coop-friendly instead of having one lich lock out other players liches from spawning and thus stalling progress and forcing people to only play solo. This is the worst issue now.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Monolake

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, Monolake said:

I hope you are working on a way to make lich missions coop-friendly instead of having one lich lock out other players liches from spawning and thus stalling progress and forcing people to only play solo. This is the worst issue now.

More than one lich can spawn in the same mission, although I don't think they can at the same time. There were 3 times today when a lich appeared, and as soon as we got rid of him (the tenno getting killed) mine spawned a second later. 

[Monolake]

7 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

 although I don't think they can at the same time.

thats exactly the problem since players take long time or often dont even want to dispatch their lich

[Namastyler]

40 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Yup, I completely respect your care, and it's a challenging situation when 'all game devs are bad and only want money' rhetoric enters the conversation. As I mentioned, the major remaining things we see are pacing/commitment, RNG, and co-op friendliness which we will discuss openly.

It's a gamer's prerogative to say 'You're being like Bioware and Bethesda!!!', but it's really hard to engage with constructively. Do you have feedback on the things I mentioned? Trading Liches was something that was meant to ship with Liches as we indicated on streams that you'd be able to trade them, but it came 11 business days later. which has had a lot of thrash (pros and cons). To set expectations, you may indeed to wait another week for comprehensive addressing of more macro commentary from our goals and intentions (plus a lot of data!), but there will definitely be hotfixes inbetween.

(Duviri is no where near around the corner, btw)!.

Reb, listen, or not, that's up to you.
To hunt liches we have to select a specific mission in which it will not always spawn (1st level of grind), then we have to look for murmurs to know how to kill our lich (2nd level of grind), then we have to find the right Requiem (3rd level of grind) from the right relic (4th level of grind). At this point, when we have all the instruments to kill the lich, we still have to find the right order (5th level of grind). All this, to be able to reach the final and last part, wich will only reward a random kuva weapon and a ephemera (6th level of grind).
Then, you have to consider immunities, which make the lich stronger than any enemy in the game. Then there are mob higher than level 100 all around him, making this hard doing solo, which at some point you have to do if you want to spawn your lich instead of every other lich in the group (without considering that you get no reward for assisting others fight their lich, which does not encourage it).
So, we have 6 levels of grind+rng, little or no reward even from your personal lich, no lore and no fun.
To all that, we now have a whole room to just be able to trade liches. Not cool.
To me, all this seems strongly oriented to wear us out and then milk us when we have being killed/punished enough because we have the wrong stone equipped.
This whole ordeal, which is not hyperbolic, is tiring.

I'm happy to spend 1h doing a survival, because after that I have rewards I can use, I can spend time with friends and so on.
I'm not happy to spend 1h hunting liches, because after that I have no rewards (besides what you return to me, which I would get normally from missions anyway), I have to play alone and so on. 
Having to farm that much just to get a weapon, it's not worth it.
Make me sacrifice 50k kuva to convert one of my existing weapons into a kuva version of it. I'm more ok with that than this whole update.

But this is just my opinion.
Because then you can show me how many liches have been killed and that's data, numbers, facts.
Numbers alone can't talk about how happy your playerbase is about killing them.
Millions of teeth are extracted yearly, but that doesn't mean that people love to have them removed, that's what I'm saying.

I hope this gamemode will be revisited and redone soon, or I think it will build up dust like Lunaro did, which is a shame because you guys spent 2years working on this.

[Xolgys]

theres nothing "too strong" about liches...i wish they were more challenging tbh. its nice for a change that they can actually one shot people if they dont dodge their grab, or kill their own teammates if they arent careful when under a rad procc...i wish paying attention to the enemy was actually more required in general....

[Cerikus]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Yup, I completely respect your care, and it's a challenging situation when 'all game devs are bad and only want money' rhetoric enters the conversation. As I mentioned, the major remaining things we see are pacing/commitment, RNG, and co-op friendliness which we will discuss openly.

It's a gamer's prerogative to say 'You're being like Bioware and Bethesda!!!', but it's really hard to engage with constructively. Do you have feedback on the things I mentioned? Trading Liches was something that was meant to ship with Liches as we indicated on streams that you'd be able to trade them, but it came 11 business days later. which has had a lot of thrash (pros and cons). To set expectations, you may indeed to wait another week for comprehensive addressing of more macro commentary from our goals and intentions (plus a lot of data!), but there will definitely be hotfixes inbetween.

(Duviri is no where near around the corner, btw)!.

Hi Reb, sorry that I am partially copying what I said in a different thread earlier today, but it just fits:

Yes, we knew that the Liches will be tradeable and we did not say anything at that time, because we knew very little about how the system is actually going to work. I feel like the main issue, that I think seems to upset most people is that the trading feels like a solution to a problem that the Lich system has. The problem is that it gets boring really fast since it has no intrinsic rewards and tbh no fun.

I always admired your ability to balance the f2p aspect of Warframe. By that I mean usually player wanted to use plat only to save time. With the balance of Lich system the trading feels more like a "skip the boring part to do what you need just for extrinsic reward" (weapons/ephemeras).

I once heard in some youtube video, that "when game devs add a feature that allows you to skip a lot of content, they actually admit that the content is something worth skipping".
I assume that the main point of the Old blood was to combat the liches, add challange and of course a bit of grind. But at this point it's more of a "we know it's too grindy and boring, so use a plat to skip the whole content we have been working on for like 2 years".

One more thing: I of course know you still have to kill the lich after trade as usual, but people just cannot force themselves to kill 81 of them to have a decent chance of having at least one of each kuva weapon and will rather settle for the 13 or less traded liches. The major issue is that this is inevitably going to lead to people burning through this whole update in less than 2 weeks, which is absolutely counterproductive and against everything you aimed to do for us in this update.

[GrayArchon]

2 hours ago, Urlan said:

I have figured that things shown in Tennocon are not representative of immediately "Soon", but I appreciate the confirmation to not expect it anytime in the real soon. Good information to have to shape further expectations.

To be fair, Empyrean looks like it's much more "around the corner" than the Duviri Paradox. But TennoCon demos have always shown things that were several months out (War Within: November; PoE: October; Fortuna: November; Empyrean: ???).

2 hours ago, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

I understand that game development takes time... but the lack of transparency at times can be... frustrating to say the least. Sometimes, when the community is bursting with rage at certain issues, the lack of transparency after that is quite off putting, even though you are one of the more transparent developer teams out there.

DevStreams, which are sort of the core of DE's player engagement, are semiweekly (though not as much in recent months), which seems fairly frequent to me. At what point do the demands for transparency become unreasonable? Should Rebecca issue a statement on the Forums every time there are, say, 10 angry posts about a new update? The hotfixes show that the system is clearly under review. There are dedicated channels for community engagement and the disbursement of information, primarily the DevStreams, of which there is one scheduled next week. That's really not that long to wait for official news. And, as Rebecca says, there will continue to be hotfixes and iterations in the meantime. There are ongoing machinations behind the scenes as to the ultimate state of the Kuva Lich system, and I would argue that a premature statement is worse for everyone than a statement issued in its time.

2 hours ago, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

As for the whole monetary transaction thing, Lich trading is the equivalent of slavery in this game. It's not that great. Maybe force Lich trading to have to include another Lich? Whatever the solution to this is, wouldn't mind you sharing more on your plans.

? Are you saying that, because the real-world action would be morally reprehensible, that the in-game action should be prohibited? It's a video game.

I don't think that means video games should be an arena for engaging in otherwise-immoral behaviour exclusively, and I think video game developers have a responsibility to make sure they're not promoting negative trends in real-life activities, but… I don't see the problem with Kuva Lich trading. In Skyrim, you have the ability to massacre innocent civilians wholesale. Should that also have been prevented by Bethesda?

I don't mean to sound facetious, inflammatory, or overly cynical. I'm just trying to understand your objection here.

[Urlan]

13 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

To be fair, Empyrean looks like it's much more "around the corner" than the Duviri Paradox. But TennoCon demos have always shown things that were several months out (War Within: November; PoE: October; Fortuna: November; Empyrean: ???).

I am aware. That said, Empyrean was originally shown teased by DE Steve at the Tennocon showing off Fortuna. I instead think about Umbra Excalibur and him eventually showing up in Sacrifice. War Within was a different situation one might feel considering it turned into a Specters of the Rails / Conclave pileup necessitating moving War Within back more and more for whatever real reasons or those from timings. I am sure that when Empyrean comes it will do akin to Archwing and introduce a new element that might eventually be integrated and fleshed out into a core mechanic of the game, until then I am not too concerned except for what one might need to prepare for in the meantime.

[Moomabo]

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Yup, I completely respect your care, and it's a challenging situation when 'all game devs are bad and only want money' rhetoric enters the conversation. As I mentioned, the major remaining things we see are pacing/commitment, RNG, and co-op friendliness which we will discuss openly.

It's a gamer's prerogative to say 'You're being like Bioware and Bethesda!!!', but it's really hard to engage with constructively. Do you have feedback on the things I mentioned? Trading Liches was something that was meant to ship with Liches as we indicated on streams that you'd be able to trade them, but it came 11 business days later. which has had a lot of thrash (pros and cons). To set expectations, you may indeed to wait another week for comprehensive addressing of more macro commentary from our goals and intentions (plus a lot of data!), but there will definitely be hotfixes inbetween.

(Duviri is no where near around the corner, btw)!.

And yet we've still not even had confirmation that the team is aware that Stealth Bonus Affinity for silent kills has been broken for over a month.

[Sohaya-]

6 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

? Are you saying that, because the real-world action would be morally reprehensible, that the in-game action should be prohibited? It's a video game.

I don't think that means video games should be an arena for engaging in otherwise-immoral behaviour exclusively, and I think video game developers have a responsibility to make sure they're not promoting negative trends in real-life activities, but… I don't see the problem with Kuva Lich trading. In Skyrim, you have the ability to massacre innocent civilians wholesale. Should that also have been prevented by Bethesda?

I don't mean to sound facetious, inflammatory, or overly cynical. I'm just trying to understand your objection here.

I’m more against the ability to sell bundles of RNG. Rivens are bad enough. Liches are basically rivens 2.0. The slavery thing was a side note, but I’ve met people fine with it.

Edited November 16, 2019 by RWBY-WhiteRose

[AngelWednesday]

Thankyou @[DE]Rebecca 😁💖

Is there any news on the clan notice board for Lich hunting?

It was mentioned that you could put your Lich in it for others to hunt instead.

It would just be nice to put up a list of who is hunting what.

I assume this would be in the new clan room at some point on the main wall?

I'm loving this room. It's so different and gives a back end feel to the very shiny Dojo.  😁💖

Thanks for all the hard work and bug fixing. 

[Padddy]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

Yup, I completely respect your care, and it's a challenging situation when 'all game devs are bad and only want money' rhetoric enters the conversation. As I mentioned, the major remaining things we see are pacing/commitment, RNG, and co-op friendliness which we will discuss openly.

It's a gamer's prerogative to say 'You're being like Bioware and Bethesda!!!', but it's really hard to engage with constructively. Do you have feedback on the things I mentioned? Trading Liches was something that was meant to ship with Liches as we indicated on streams that you'd be able to trade them, but it came 11 business days later. which has had a lot of thrash (pros and cons). To set expectations, you may indeed to wait another week for comprehensive addressing of more macro commentary from our goals and intentions (plus a lot of data!), but there will definitely be hotfixes inbetween.

(Duviri is no where near around the corner, btw)!.

I‘m sure you guys listen to us. It is just not easy (and of course you need money too, else there are no updates :D... in my opinion it is still f2p anyways).

The Lich system is still not what it should be, but I guess you guys are working on it.

 

On the new Lich-Trading: It really should be changed to trading active Liches instead of converted ones. (I mean it‘s like murdering the Lich after converting it to our side). I also see the point in doing it this way: You can get the Ephemera and after that you can trade it... but it really doesn‘t feel right that Tenno are trading their „friends“ for slaughtering.

 

Keep it up guys, I know that it is hard to figure out what people want because everyone wants something different. But I guess the general consensus about what needs to be tweaked in the Lich system is clear. 🙂