Hydroid Comprehensive Rework

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

11 hours ago, Ichsuisme said:

what if it all just scaled with power strength? I like my mod choices to matter and I like having builds that play differently.

Sounds good to me. I always hate when there's barely any variation on what the "right" build can be. 

[AzulMage]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Sounds good to me. I always hate when there's barely any variation on what the "right" build can be. 

Actually this brings up one other issues with Hydroid. Due to how small base range is for his abilities, it's always a chore building him because his abilities need all stats. Puddle, tentacles, and even his 1 should get a range buff to make it easier to build him. It's bad enough that his 1 augment is pretty much necessary because it takes a valuable slot

[Ichsuisme]

Yeah, 1 should be buffed. I'm on the fence about the augment being included though. If it were to be included, then maybe that effect only kicks in when the ability is completely charged. Having CC, armor strip, and some decent damage at lower levels is a lot for his 1st skill. At least the additional energy drain might even it out. Instead, what would you all think about adding a combo window like ember now has (and like atlas has had)? It'd incentivize high efficiency builds where you can afford to cast it multiple times. Charging his 1 should pause the combo window so you can still be smart with your placement and you don't need to rush. The combo could really boost damage and duration affects the combo window which is a stat I think all hydroid builds build for.

Speaking of stats, I agree that hydroid is stat-hungry. Some Extra base range might be enough to open some mod slots. But again, maybe the range should be tied to each fully charged ability just to require some effort. I know the charge mechanic isn't super popular but if the charged skills had greatly more noticeable effects, that might make them feel better to use. This might also reward experienced hydroid players who should know when they need to charge their abilities and when they don't need to waste their actual energy and time.

 

I'd like to mention that while I don't want his 4 changed, I would like it buffed. The un-moddable 10-20 tentacles really isn't getting the job done. Being able to damage the kraken head will help with the damage portion of this ability, but its CC isn't consistent. For the amount of range that I have on my hydroid builds, especially when I charge his 4, there is not enough tentacles to reliably keep me safe. Enemies are still able to walk through what should be a locked down area.

• I would suggest tying the number of tentacles to power strength but that might ruin negative strength builds which I assume is a thing -- and given how stat-hungry he is, I don't blame them; I use negative efficiency, but negative strength for this mostly cc frame isn't outrageous.
• I would suggest giving pilfering swarm an additional effect that adds +10 tentacles and have this amount modified by power strength, but pilfering swarm is already a strong augment.
• Is increasing the base number of tentacles too much reward for no effort in exchange?

I'm aiming for 15-35 tentacles. And I know his 1 can help with my current issues of enemies not being CC'ed but I want to cast my 1 outside where my 4 isn't supposed to reach, I don't want it to use it just for plugging holes in my 4, right?

 

Thoughts?

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

19 hours ago, (NSW)SantCruz said:

Actually this brings up one other issues with Hydroid. Due to how small base range is for his abilities, it's always a chore building him because his abilities need all stats. Puddle, tentacles, and even his 1 should get a range buff to make it easier to build him. It's bad enough that his 1 augment is pretty much necessary because it takes a valuable slot

I've never personally had an issue with range on him, only using Stretch for range. But I could see how some builds might want more.

The issue with too much range on the Tentacles though is that there is still a cap on how many you get. Spreading them too thin makes any duration on them pointless since they will not likely hit anything else after the original target they spawn on.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

46 minutes ago, Ichsuisme said:

I'm on the fence about the augment being included though.

I'm in the same boat here. I use the augment, because it's amazing. But that's the same reason I'm torn about including it. Making only active when fully charging seems like a good compromise. 

51 minutes ago, Ichsuisme said:

I would suggest tying the number of tentacles to power strength

I think too many tentacles could become burdensome to you and allies. Maybe it would be better to just make the tentacles themselves better.

• Give them a farther reach (only when grabbing, their default visual length will be the same when idol or flailing enemies around). 
• Tentacles are actually capable of holding multiple targets at once, but don't always do it. Make them more aggressive towards enemies when not holding their maximum number of targets to make sure they're earning their keep and grabbing as many as they can.

[Ichsuisme]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I think too many tentacles could become burdensome to you and allies. Maybe it would be better to just make the tentacles themselves better.

• Give them a farther reach (only when grabbing, their default visual length will be the same when idol or flailing enemies around). 
• Tentacles are actually capable of holding multiple targets at once, but don't always do it. Make them more aggressive towards enemies when not holding their maximum number of targets to make sure they're earning their keep and grabbing as many as they can.

Ok, yes, I agree with all this. I guess I wasn't thinking of the visual impact that more tentacles would bring. My screen is usually already filled with stuff, I guess there's no reason to add to that. The reach on the tentacles is important but even more importantly, if the tentacles would reliably pick up multiple enemies, then it'd help with my problem of this skill's CC inconsistency. 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

3 minutes ago, Ichsuisme said:

Ok, yes, I agree with all this. I guess I wasn't thinking of the visual impact that more tentacles would bring. My screen is usually already filled with stuff, I guess there's no reason to add to that. The reach on the tentacles is important but even more importantly, if the tentacles would reliably pick up multiple enemies, then it'd help with my problem of this skill's CC inconsistency. 

Yep, early on a lot of design choices were based on system limitations. I'm not sure if it would still be a limitation issue of having more tentacles, but it would be a visual nightmare.

Unfortunately a lot of warframe abilities fail to reach their potential because of dependence on faulty AI (like my friend, Nyx). I think making the tentacles do their job better should be a lot simpler than other AI adjustments needed throughout the game since the scope of their actions is much more limited.

[Ichsuisme]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I think making the tentacles do their job better should be a lot simpler than other AI adjustments needed throughout the game since the scope of their actions is much more limited.

Yeah that makes sense. It's like how they made wukong's twin be a super aggressive version of equinox's augment. They didn't fix all the AI, they just tweaked one form of it. So, alright, if the tentacles were tweaked and they would consistently pick up multiple enemies, then no extra tentacles needed.

[(XBOX)Dissodance]

On 2019-11-21 at 9:59 AM, Ichsuisme said:

Yeah that makes sense. It's like how they made wukong's twin be a super aggressive version of equinox's augment. They didn't fix all the AI, they just tweaked one form of it. So, alright, if the tentacles were tweaked and they would consistently pick up multiple enemies, then no extra tentacles needed.

Would be nice and with an augment to damage the kraken head and spread damage would allow hydroid some form of DPS potential.

Hydroids an incredibly fun frame thats niche in the worst possible way but a lot of the ideas posted here would do a lot to fix it.

-barrage augment on full charge-> great addition and one thats badly needed for engame content.  If they dont want to combine the two rename the skill to grog barrage and have the water be barrels of booze and throw heat procs on enemies,  while corrosion/water seem to be hydroids stick you can always use the pirate theme.  Or stick with the same skill but modify the radius of the charge up.  Have hydroids 1 work in reverse,  have the uncharged version be the large radius impact barrage it is now on charge and have the charged barrage be a smaller radius with the corrosive proc.  IE: force the balance choice of armor strip in a smaller radius or CC in a larger one.

-Everyone seems to be prone to combine two skills and bring a new one.  I think this is the good way to go but differ in that I think combining hydroids 2 and 3 would do wonders  for the character. Combine the augments into one skill (choose to reduce status procs for the party or heal) and modify  the skill to become a tidal wave that falls into the puddle.  IE create a wave that crashes down knocking enemies down, slash proc then dropping them into a puddle if the skill was charged.  If not continue on as normal.  Modding for range and power str would modify distance traveled and size of the wave etc.

-New number 3 ability  Bring in some of his pirate theme or bring in more tentacles of the deep.  Im more of a fan of the castable puddle trap and the deep component.  turn his 3 into the damage portion of the puddle in smaller area or create a "drowning on land" skill where a CC target area throws bubbles on enemies and they flail like the fire proc.  would allow for scaling impact damage on easily target-able enemies (unlike his 4)

[(PSN)RazorPhoenix970]

On 2019-11-17 at 9:00 PM, Prosodical said:

You raise a good point, sir! Alright, I'm down for a radial wave dispersion/synergy pull with his 3. Can I get bbq sauce with that?

 

 

On 2019-11-18 at 12:14 AM, Prosodical said:

This is my favorite. Nobody else can do this. We'll say they get saltwater in their eyes, and miss. Ever had that happen? It sucks. I want to see a heavy gunner staggering around, shooting the floor. 

A rework thread with constructive and creative ideas...lovely. But most importantly where I can find these comics🙂

[kapn655321]

Some ideas shopped from a thread I made months back.

Rain Storm: (One hand, all upper body fast cast. Very spammable, stacks into duration similar to recasting Amesha's 2. Does not alert enemies. No dmg.)
       Cast a rain storm causing enemies random knockdowns.
       Enemies killed within it's effect have +15% chance to drop energy orbs.
   If charged:
       Increase duration and range of storm.
       Reduce detection of ally gunfire within range by 75% and visibility by 50%.

Tidal Surge: (Improve directional mobility, cast time, and associated delays. Ground based Cloud walker style.)
      Give function of Tidal Impunity augment to wash off status/put out fires.
   If cast from Undertow:
      Remain in place, and wash enemies away with up to 15m from outside of puddle.
      This allows you to keep eximus out of your puddle.

Undertow: As Is.
      Curative Undertow augment changes to 30% health gained over 3 seconds.
      stack adds every 1.5 seconds, only applies/drains energy when ally health is missing.
Casting Rain Storm from Undertow:
       Add Chance to jam enemy guns.
       Reduce enemy damage and speed by 20%. This effect is removed on leaving Undertow.

Rip Current: (Channel)
     Creates a swirling pool of water where cast, that traps enemies, and negates enemy AoE status/Ancient Healer links.
     Attacks by party members into the rip current now divides the damage among all trapped enemies.
   If active in Undertow:
     Increases range of pool by 30%, as you become the vortex.
     Rain storm will now deal damage.
Abilities improved during this state.
   1 leaves puddles for enemies to slip on.
   2's wave now houses the Kraken which Pulls enemies in with tentacles. (Become ground based 'Nidus Larva' you control.)

Pilfering Tentacles augment: Tentacles spring from the Rip Current to drag enemies in.
All enemies within the Rip Current will drop additional loot. (same rate)

No more aiming at tentacles. Better stealth kit. Situational combo synergies.
As for the Corrosive, enemy armor is due for a rework. I don't suspect corrosive will always be so necessary.

Figured I'd share my thoughts.
Have over 700 hours on Hydroid alone.

Edited November 24, 2019 by kapn655321

[AzulMage]

10 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

Some ideas shopped from a thread I made months back.

Rain Storm: (One hand, all upper body fast cast. Very spammable, stacks into duration similar to recasting Amesha's 2. Does not alert enemies. No dmg.)
       Cast a rain storm causing enemies random knockdowns.
       Enemies killed within it's effect have +15% chance to drop energy orbs.
   If charged:
       Increase duration and range of storm.
       Reduce detection of ally gunfire within range by 75% and visibility by 50%.

 

Last thing Hydroid needs is an RNG based ability. Definitely think this is a downgrade from his current 1. Since it deals no damage and offers RNG based CC vs his 1 which always knocksdown, I don't see this as useful.

[kapn655321]

2 hours ago, (NSW)SantCruz said:

Last thing Hydroid needs is an RNG based ability.

I always got the feeling that was part of his kit.
His 1 strikes randomly. His 4 strikes randomly.

The proposed change will Hit All enemies in the area, but it's effect is CC and stealth.

Either way, thanks for reading!
 

[kapn655321]

On 2019-11-16 at 12:58 AM, Prosodical said:

I recommend His 3 and 4 merge into one ability.

This is why I leapt to send my ideas last night. I had the same thoughts, putting his 3 into his 4.

Different methods, but similar concepts.

 

 

On 2019-11-16 at 12:58 AM, Prosodical said:

TRANSFORM Hydroid into an arthropodal monstrosity, flailing tentacles, able to "swim" through the ground almost as quickly as he can parkour in normal form.

That does sound incredibly cool. Would not be opposed.

The swimming through the ground was also similar.


The main thematic difference in approach was, mine leaned more towards stealth,
yours leaned into aggro. ...Which would be super fun, and is in part how I play him already.

His low armor does make that a bit tricky, but balances against the CC.

[AzulMage]

3 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

I always got the feeling that was part of his kit.
His 1 strikes randomly. His 4 strikes randomly.

The proposed change will Hit All enemies in the area, but it's effect is CC and stealth.

Either way, thanks for reading!
 

That's true to an extent but I think the randomness is something to be corrected not too lean into. If your proposed effect would hit all enemies in area and always CC them, then we would potentially be onto something. Though I still think the lack of damage in a metagame that is all about damage is a bad idea. Even Vauban's CC focused abilities deal some kind of damage before and after his rework

[kapn655321]

15 hours ago, (NSW)SantCruz said:

metagame that is all about damage

We can see DE trying to reign that in, hopefully resulting in an enemy that has more play,
and less infinite armor tanking vs. meta exponentials.

The melee changes seem to be taking the first big steps toward setting up this foundation.
Can't be sure, but would make good sense to me.

Due to how the enemies scale and take/withstand damage,
and what that means for current end game difficulties, Totally..
you are forced to submit to DPS, outshining CC in all respects.
I don't believe that's the intent based on some reworks.

Creating circumstances that take enemies down, Or using damage, but both
paths having a relatively similar time to reach the result.
Currently, with enemy damage, accuracy, health scaling, etc..
CC is too risky, with not enough reward. For now.

If that gets sorted, I'd rather see Hydroid meet that with nuance,
instead of power creep.

If that doesn't get sorted, then might as well make him compete with more DPS in creative ways.

One thing we agree on.. 2 would benefit from being a bit more like a ground based
cloudwalker or reave... or at least something with more control and speed if it's staying around long term.
Or rather, I get that impression. While it may be better off as something else entirely, that would still be
and improvement.

Edited November 25, 2019 by kapn655321

[Ichsuisme]

On 2019-11-24 at 3:06 AM, (XB1)Dissodance said:

Would be nice and with an augment to damage the kraken head and spread damage would allow hydroid some form of DPS potential.

-barrage augment on full charge-> great addition

I think combining hydroids 2 and 3 would do wonders  for the character.

I'm glad you liked the suggestions and agree with the ones you listed. Damaging the kraken head, as I understood, would be included in the base ability and the pilfering swarm augment would stay the same.

The tidal surge into the undertow suggestion might end up being clunky. When I play hydroid, there's times when I just want to use tidal surge and don't want to go into the puddle at all. It seems like your suggestion might always end up with me in a puddle --  and I see that limiting his mobility. so I would still prefer the tap to go into the puddle / hold to tidal surge -- this way you could hold 2 and dash forward without ever going into the puddle state if you choose.

The tidal impunity and curative undertow augments could definitely be combined into one, exactly like vauban's repelling bastille and perpetual votex augments now being one. However, if by, "Combine the augments into one skill" you mean include it on the base skill -- I think that's too strong. If you just meant combine them into one augment though -- yeah, we're on the same page. His two would then become a great support skill. I would make room for that two-for-one augment.

As far as the drowning on land CC ability goes, I'm not really sold on it becoming his new three. It sounds too similar to his one. His one uses raining missiles to knock enemies down and now his three will use bubbles to panic enemies -- and again only in a target area? I'm still open to suggestions for a three but I'm looking for something that can help keep him alive for those times when Hydroid needs to venture outside of all his CC'ed areas. Like really: Hydroid is not tanky, he relies on his CC to survive. I suggested the impact status buff so he could continue to CC no matter where he goes and those staggers might be impactful enough (Pun Intended) to keep himself alive but not provide too much security where the whole CC is no longer important. I would've suggested straight-up damage reduction, but that is so over-done and it doesn't really fit the CC or pirate theme -- plus that might outshine the rest of his skills, DR is no joke.

If you're not feeling the impact buff, I'm sure you're not the only one haha. So care to add to it? Or happen to have a different solution to my concern: Hydroid needs a CC that travels with him for survivability?

[Ichsuisme]

On 2019-11-24 at 3:34 PM, (NSW)SantCruz said:

Last thing Hydroid needs is an RNG based ability. Definitely think this is a downgrade from his current 1. Since it deals no damage and offers RNG based CC vs his 1 which always knocksdown, I don't see this as useful.

I completely agree. I think his one currently functions well. The only change I would support is that the corrosive procs from the augment should be included in the base ability, though only when it is fully charged.

 And consequently, the augment could then return the corrosive procs to normal, un-charged casts and maybe increase the rate at which armor is stripped.

[AzulMage]

28 minutes ago, Ichsuisme said:

I completely agree. I think his one currently functions well. The only change I would support is that the corrosive procs from the augment should be included in the base ability, though only when it is fully charged.

 And consequently, the augment could then return the corrosive procs to normal, un-charged casts and maybe increase the rate at which armor is stripped.

Agreed. Maybe augment can instead turn uncharged 1 into corrosive damage like now and charged give corrosive damage to Ally weapons just like volt/ember/saryn/oberon/frost 1 augments

[Ichsuisme]

20 hours ago, (NSW)SantCruz said:

Agreed. Maybe augment can instead turn uncharged 1 into corrosive damage like now and charged give corrosive damage to Ally weapons just like volt/ember/saryn/oberon/frost 1 augments

Yeah I like that idea. That would standardize his kit a little more.

[Prosodical]

On 2019-11-24 at 1:34 AM, kapn655321 said:

As for the Corrosive, enemy armor is due for a rework. I don't suspect corrosive will always be so necessary.

A most valuable addition, sir or ma'am. And of course, DE would understand how far out this armor rework is. I imagine an armor rework would uproot all our comfy hammocks and well-worn paths. If armor is made to be less game-breaking, his 1 would no longer require corroding barrage, among many other changes. 

 

On 2019-11-24 at 1:34 AM, kapn655321 said:

Rip Current: (Channel)
     Creates a swirling pool of water where cast, that traps enemies, and negates enemy AoE status/Ancient Healer links.
     Attacks by party members into the rip current now divides the damage among all trapped enemies.
   If active in Undertow:
     Increases range of pool by 30%, as you become the vortex.
     Rain storm will now deal damage.
Abilities improved during this state.
   1 leaves puddles for enemies to slip on.
   2's wave now houses the Kraken which Pulls enemies in with tentacles. (Become ground based 'Nidus Larva' you control.)

I find all of your proposed abilities interesting. I especially like your idea for a more stealth-based Hydroid. I'd be all for it. Just let me keep my dripping tentacle-pirate! 

I'm trying to better understand your explanation of this ability here. By, "Become ground based 'Nidus Larva' you control," do you refer to some sort of transformation? How would this ability function, in the keyboard sense? I see that it has different effects based on which other abilities are active at the time. I imagine, simply, a second undertow. Also, if in the vortex/undertow, pulling enemies under, at what point would their guns jam, or slip in puddles? 

I have some mobility concerns about this kit you've offered. Most of the people in this thread agree Hydroid needs to be a bit less stationary. 

Just some minor questions for what are otherwise very nice ideas. Thank you. 

This raises the question, should Hydroid focus on aggression, or stealth? I imagine some sort of shark-like ambush predator sliming through vents and emerging behind a corpus flunkie, pulling him down into the depths. What might other play styles look like?

[kapn655321]

24 minutes ago, Prosodical said:

Nidus Larva' you control

So, imagine the wave from the 2 looks the same.

For hydroid, water tentacles, for Prime, kraken's head rises and falls..
Controls like Cloudwalker but ground based.
As you move past people, you can do the same thing you do with Undertow tentacles.
Only, mobile. Dragging them with you into the wave.

So like, if you went through a crowd holding Fire, you would drag a portion of the group into you,
like if you were Nidus' larva ability. The one that drags everyone in like vortex,
but you'd have to mouse over them.
 

29 minutes ago, Prosodical said:

at what point would their guns jam, or slip in puddles?

When you're in Undertow, you can cast your 1 Away from you, elsewhere.

So like, if you cast From undertow, a more drenching rain would be fitting.

[kapn655321]

30 minutes ago, Prosodical said:

should Hydroid focus on aggression, or stealth?

That's gonna largely depend on enemy health scaling revisions.

If we chased DPS for everyone to meet the current needs,
the whole stealth game is kinda shot, except for 4 frames primarily, and a few scant features here and there.

When I first watched a promo or youtube video (forget which) back in 2014,
I saw Hydroid standing in a rain storm.
I thought, "Yes. That's the guy. Rain will reduce visibility, make it hard to hear... I may just get the hang of stealth games."
Still really wishing that was part of it.

[Prosodical]

Folks seem to like the comics. This is my favorite so far.

[kapn655321]

1 hour ago, Prosodical said:

slip in puddles

This is the tricky bit.

Exactly as I see it:

Small AoE pools that proc a chance to just cause knockdown while they're moving.
Higher chance if they're running. (Slip and fall)
Impact and blast procs have a chance to cause knockdown while under it's effect.

Take the idea behind Tar Moa, make it a shallow puddle of water.
Swap it's properties for the knockdown chances.
...If they try to move, they won't go too far statistically speaking.


Side benefit:
Stationary enemies unalerted will not be aware of this effect or it's source.
Casting it on an unalerted enemy will allow you to crack off long distance shots
slightly closer, while remaining undetected through sound or sight.
Your rain storm would not Necessarily knock people down and cause chaos.

Edited November 27, 2019 by kapn655321