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(PS4)Akuma_Asura_

Do you think PVP can be successful ?

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So I’ve been around for dark sectors and obviously conclave . Dark sectors/Solar Rail conflicts were pretty well received by the community and people actually enjoyed participating in it back then, but with conclave it’s like 1-5% of the community even play conclave regularly, it’s truly unpopular. So I wanted to discuss so you think PVP in Warframe can ever be successful again in Warframe ? & if so how can it be fixed ? I personally feel like DE should have a team that specifically works on PVP 

Edited by (PS4)Akuma_Asura_
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DE do have a team that works on PvP, it's two people doing it in their own time because that's not where the money is.

No, I don't believe PvP in Warframe will ever be successful. 

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Can it be? Yes. Conclave forums have a plethora of feedback that could be implemented to at least start getting it off the ground again.

Will it be? No. For the reasons the Monkey above said.

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PvP could be successful if they add dedicated servers and somehow could manage the weapons / frames are balanced in it. These two is the major reasons why the players don't play it. Another reason is there is no real rewards which could motivate the players to go there. If they put something unique there then the community will either cry and bash them why they added conclave only rewards the other part bash them why they don't add rewards. In my opinion if the game mode looks fun and become playable the players would like to play it except the ones whom not like to lose against others. This could be a good step I think but the money generator is the PvE grindfests so they focusing on it. 

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I highly doubt it.

PvP games are a strange thing in terms of design, honestly PvP design isn't my field of expertise so I couldn't begin to say the hurdles that it faces compared to PvE design.

There's also the fact that PvP communities tend to be absurdly volatile and aggressive and that makes player retention very difficult.

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If PvP becomes a viable way to progress in the game (so you can earn xp for weapons, resources, maybe syndicate rep etc.) then some people would play it as an alternative to PvE grind (either constantly or to break up the routine). Obviously, this would require very careful balance of rewards to not make PvP either more or significantly less rewarding than regular PvE content.

And regardless of what you do, the moment you put actual rewards in PvP, there will be tons of players that will complain about "DE forcing PvP on me!!!!!!!", even if rewards won't be as good as regular PvE farm.

However, the bigger issue is the warframe ability and weapon balance - there is simply too much stuff to properly balance it for PvP, so you will see people running with the most meta stuff all the time to score victories and get better rewards. Moreover, competitive PvP will inevitably create a toxic environment (in fact, as far as I know, the tiny conclave community that exists now is already pretty toxic, especially to newcomers), which is not a good thing for the game.

Overall, I think something can be done to make it more enjoyable (like making a corpus vs grineer mode, where you don't play as warframes), but it will require a lot of resources and time, which I believe are better spent elsewhere (empyrean, new war, duviri, next openworld, corpus and infested nemesis systems, etc.).

 

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8 hours ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

So I wanted to discuss so you think PVP in Warframe can ever be successful again in Warframe ? & if so how can it be fixed ? I personally feel like DE should have a team that specifically works on PVP

Sure it could, but there has to be a will for it and some understanding on how to execute it properly.

 

8 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

DE do have a team that works on PvP, it's two people doing it in their own time because that's not where the money is.

No, I don't believe PvP in Warframe will ever be successful. 

It's obvious to anyone who's had a look at the patch notes these past two years that no one is really working on it. Or if they are, not on something that's already in the game.

 

They did fix a few things that were clearly bugs, and in March a few unlisted changes happened. But generally, they can't be arsed to have even a cursory glance at the state of balance. It's not really wonder that it has low popularity. A few things to consider:

  • Most stats are based on PvE, so changes in PvE bleed into it. Balance actually matters, but we know that this studio has a poor grasp on that.
  • Ironically, the one mode that is balanced by definition, because everyone has the same fixed stats, got removed at some point -- no reason given. It was called Opticor Variant and was a sort of instagib mode.
  • Rewards structure is stuck in 2016. I thought Forma Blueprints weren't in there, but turns out they are -- with 0.25% end of match chance they're on the level of a Legendary Core. Hilarious.
  • Skill-based matchmaking had been requested as far back as 2015, and at some point in 2016 we got Recruit Conditioning; I'd say it helps, but is clearly flawed.

I could go on for a bit, but these are probably the biggest issues at the moment.

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Not really. It requires way more reflexes, attention to detail and speed than the average casual can handle. 

Not being facetious, but large groups of gamers follow the easiest path. PvP in a lot of games requires you to actually try a bit more since you're not fighting AI. Just from my experience it's been that way in a lot of games. People try it out and cant handle it because "it's too fast" "I'm dying too much" or "we're getting steamrolled by elitists" lol.

 

 

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Can be? Yes.

Likely to be? Probably not.

It's not going to be mainstream popular, because the experience it offers is orders of magnitude different. Compared to, say, Destiny, where the difference is of course significant, but not quite as much so as Warframe's propensity to exterminatus the map. It could only really be successful in the sense of having a reasonably sizable chunk of the community, as opposed to what we have now where a whisper of a ghost plays it. Including me sometimes.

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Pvp only brings more cancer to the community. So no.

Also much less ppl are interested in pvp. So no one would really give a #*!% if they would remake pvp.

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Hard no. Warframe gameplay doesn't translate very well to PvP. I say that as primary PvP player in other games. PvP in Warframe is pure trash just by virtue of whole game design.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

So I wanted to discuss so you think PVP in Warframe can ever be successful again in Warframe ? & if so how can it be fixed ?

I agree, a team that finally starts to work on pvp again would be the first step in the right direction. Idk what these 2 devs that had been announced to work on pvp worked on in the past year(s) except these few bug fixes including lantern changes in the Conclave relay room @Kontrollo mentioned before... I'd be gladly proven wrong by a ninja Conclave overhaul, but the likeliness of that to happen is very small.

Some other points that already have been mentioned by players and some of them even were addressed by the devs in interviews are:

  • a server browser to give a lobby overview and let us choose where we gonna take part in:   This should also give Conclave more transparency and get rid of misconceptions. The max player count each conclave lobby is 8, if there are 2 or 3 full lobbies in your region you won't know that there are actual matches happening atm, but assume that Conclave is dead, because you won't get connected to full lobbies but a new empty one instead. (pro tip: adding Conclave players to your friend list will tell you if there are matches happening atm)
  • several bug fixes and a big balance pass are required in Conclave's current neglected state: Considering we have dev(s) working on Conclave again, lots of pve changes and reworks including bugs translated over into pvp as well and never really got touched and have to be balanced. That caused a noticeable gap between the former decently balanced weapons and Warframes to the in pve changed mostly overpowered stuff. The most recent examples would be the Staticor rework and the melee changes of which you can find a discussion about here:
Spoiler

 

  • a spectator mode: This one is a rather small thing of importance value, but has been asked for ages ago, over and over again. It'll play a big part in service for tournaments and accelerating the learning process of every player and depending on its implementation it can also be a decent tool to spot an aim hacker or get rid of such an accusation. (not everyone has a powerful rig that can record Warframe while playing the game)
  • a match making option: ngl I kinda struggle to see how this can be implemented correctly. Conclave is an arcade 3rd person arena shooter with a very fast pace due to an unique mobility system and melee system. Once DE did a decent balance pass and got rid of several if not all exploits in Conclave, the environment for a match making system would be present. Considering the sheer amount of weapons... a ranked mode to determine a solid matchmaking will be more likely to happen with a reduced number of weapons and Warframes. That should limit the amount of possible exploits, help the dev team to set a priority bar for future fixes and overall benefit a more tactical mindset within the given possibilities. On the other hand this mode would cause a strong shift towards the meta gear.. different seasons with different use able weapons and Warframes  could solve that, but requires DE to constantly work on Conclave! Which wouldn't be a problem if Conclave got more popular again to be a valid option and keep the players within the franchise, while offering a completely different alternative in contrast to the constant pve grind.
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3 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

(in fact, as far as I know, the tiny conclave community that exists now is already pretty toxic, especially to newcomers), which is not a good thing for the game

Then let me tell you that the tiny Conclave community offers scheduled school-bus sessions and I quote: "...aiming to introduce new players to PvP, equipping them with the knowledge they need to get a foothold and playing some games on a level playing field." Here in this partnered Discord server.

 

4 hours ago, Aldain said:

There's also the fact that PvP communities tend to be absurdly volatile and aggressive and that makes player retention very difficult.

 

19 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Pvp only brings more cancer to the community. So no.

Also much less ppl are interested in pvp. So no one would really give a #*!% if they would remake pvp.

That includes the pve community as well. Beside pve I am playing Conclave regularly for years now and if I had to make a list to compare the occurrence of toxicity between pve and pvp, the pve side out weights by far. On top of that within the past couple years many of the pvp toxicity radiated from ppl that lately came from pve and were still kinda new to pvp beside the few and well known problematic individuals pvp had. Yes balance issues and other flaws, DE could eliminate with development on Conclave, increased that effect. The balance problems aside I highly doubt that this is caused by whether it being pve or pvp, but rather the individuals themselves.

 

31 minutes ago, zoffmode said:

Hard no. Warframe gameplay doesn't translate very well to PvP. I say that as primary PvP player in other games. PvP in Warframe is pure trash just by virtue of whole game design.

Hard yes. Warframe gameplay does translate very well to PvP if the problematic edges got worked on by DE. I say that as a regular Warframe and pvp player remembering the feedback of a hella lot of other primary PvP players from other games. (whatever it'll be: Quake, S4 League, Titanfall, Gunz.. rip, CoD, CS, Battlefield, add any BR title here and so on)

The current balance issues and bugs aside the core gameplay offers a very high potential for successful PvP modes. A big problem is that Conclave ever was just a little side project and as a result to that many choices had been made to minimize development time and effort. Conclave can be a very decent and competitive fast paced arcade 3rd person arena shooter in the future, if DE finally decides to put that potential into effect.

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2 minutes ago, Loxyen said:

That includes the pve community as well. Beside pve I am playing Conclave regularly for years now and if I had to make a list to compare the occurrence of toxicity between pve and pvp, the pve side out weights by far. On top of that within the past couple years many of the pvp toxicity radiated from ppl that lately came from pve and were still kinda new to pvp beside the few and well known problematic individuals pvp had. Yes balance issues and other flaws, DE could eliminate with development on Conclave, increased that effect. The balance problems aside I highly doubt that this is caused by whether it being pve or pvp, but rather the individuals themselves.

Pvp would bring more cancer simply because the community is already cancer.

Just by looking at the many "kill your lich" cry babies I already know pvp would get hit by a big S#&$ storm of "stop using x weapon" or "stop doing y in pvp" or "this is why pvp is garbage" posts.

Now the forums are one thing. But in game I don't even want to know what would go down.

 

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If the usage is so small, is there a reason why they havent just got rid of pvp component/conclave altogether ?

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5 hours ago, Aldain said:

I highly doubt it.

PvP games are a strange thing in terms of design, honestly PvP design isn't my field of expertise so I couldn't begin to say the hurdles that it faces compared to PvE design.

There's also the fact that PvP communities tend to be absurdly volatile and aggressive and that makes player retention very difficult.

This is the truth of the matter.  Players are insanely competitive even in the PvE space, PvP would just flood the forums with people complaining about weapon and frame balance.  There is also the issue of the higher the skill ceiling and skill floor, the more likely PvP will cannibalize itself, and Warframe's is actually insanely high.  There's a reason CoD's player base hated those CoD's that allowed wall running, jetpacks, etc.  They just wanted to run around on the ground, ADS to hit anything while moving at a crawl, make a few easy kills, and feel like they're any good at shooters.  People that feel like they're getting stomped on all the time will inevitably quit for good.

Then we also have to consider that most gamers anymore seem to play a game more for rewards than the actual game play, and so you've got a whole different horde of players screaming whenever desirable rewards are dropped into the PvP segment of a dominantly PvE game, or if the PvP rewards reward power such that long time players have clear advantages over newer players, or what have you.

Edited by Lost_Cartographer
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It needs dedicated server. Outside of that - PVP is actually pretty fun, if you can find somebody to even play with.

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I hope they never implement PvP.
Or make it completely optional and non-related to anything else in game...

OR let us opt for NPC enemies instead of players...

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Warframe's design and movement system is extremely well suited for PvP! The lack of popularity is most likely due to lack of rewards and balance (and development.) A well-developed PvP system would keep veterans engaged and provide the challenge that is lacking in PvE for those who want it. It can definitely be successful but requires more than a half-update with poor balancing only on years ending in prime numbers. 

In matches with long-time conclavers, the chat will include mostly jokes and people saying things like "nice shot!" I've often wondered why people claim that the conclave community is toxic, when all the evidence I've seen is the exact opposite. I've become convinced that in fact it's recruit conditioning which is the toxic arena. I think this stems from the fact that players who are new to conclave aren't used to dying. If the PvE is mindlessly easy then people become accustomed to winning, to the point where they feel like they deserve the win every time. I think this is the reason why long-time PvE players become toxic when they try conclave. 

If people stop by the conclave discord to chat with us, I think they'll find that conclave is undeserving of it's "toxic" reputation. 

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6 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Warframe's design and movement system is extremely well suited for PvP! The lack of popularity is most likely due to lack of rewards and balance (and development.) A well-developed PvP system would keep veterans engaged and provide the challenge that is lacking in PvE for those who want it. It can definitely be successful but requires more than a half-update with poor balancing only on years ending in prime numbers. 

In matches with long-time conclavers, the chat will include mostly jokes and people saying things like "nice shot!" I've often wondered why people claim that the conclave community is toxic, when all the evidence I've seen is the exact opposite. I've become convinced that in fact it's recruit conditioning which is the toxic arena. I think this stems from the fact that players who are new to conclave aren't used to dying. If the PvE is mindlessly easy then people become accustomed to winning, to the point where they feel like they deserve the win every time. I think this is the reason why long-time PvE players become toxic when they try conclave. 

If people stop by the conclave discord to chat with us, I think they'll find that conclave is undeserving of it's "toxic" reputation. 

if that was true conclave wouldnt be the collosal failure it has been.  its litterally dead like no one ever plays it.  I have made 250+ attempts at runs for conclave so could get conclave mods and other conclave exclusive rewards and only ran into other playes 2 times

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9 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Sure it could, but there has to be a will for it and some understanding on how to execute it properly.

 

It's obvious to anyone who's had a look at the patch notes these past two years that no one is really working on it. Or if they are, not on something that's already in the game.

 

They did fix a few things that were clearly bugs, and in March a few unlisted changes happened. But generally, they can't be arsed to have even a cursory glance at the state of balance. It's not really wonder that it has low popularity. A few things to consider:

  • Most stats are based on PvE, so changes in PvE bleed into it. Balance actually matters, but we know that this studio has a poor grasp on that.
  • Ironically, the one mode that is balanced by definition, because everyone has the same fixed stats, got removed at some point -- no reason given. It was called Opticor Variant and was a sort of instagib mode.
  • Rewards structure is stuck in 2016. I thought Forma Blueprints weren't in there, but turns out they are -- with 0.25% end of match chance they're on the level of a Legendary Core. Hilarious.
  • Skill-based matchmaking had been requested as far back as 2015, and at some point in 2016 we got Recruit Conditioning; I'd say it helps, but is clearly flawed.

I could go on for a bit, but these are probably the biggest issues at the moment.

I really do think DE has abandoned Conclave just because it isnt popular. On that note, the only way DE will dedicate time to fix conclave is for there to be players like us to want it.

 

5 hours ago, Loxyen said:

Then let me tell you that the tiny Conclave community offers scheduled school-bus sessions and I quote: "...aiming to introduce new players to PvP, equipping them with the knowledge they need to get a foothold and playing some games on a level playing field." Here in this partnered Discord server.

I would love to play with you when i get on PC. you seem like the kinda players we need to bring life into Conclave.

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2 hours ago, Vyra said:

I hope they never implement PvP.
Or make it completely optional and non-related to anything else in game...

OR let us opt for NPC enemies instead of players...

you do know conclave is already implemented right?

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To answer the OP's question: Not without a major overhaul from the ground up involving modifying key mechanics like overall mobility. This is my analysis: 

 

Edited by ixidron92

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