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Do you think PVP can be successful ?


(PSN)Akuma_Asura_
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16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is where I can agree with you more: I do believe PvE often has the player rely on overwhelming force rather than any sort of precision, and that's a shame given how the game has the potential to test the player on how agile, stealthy, or accurate they can be. I don't believe Conclave is going to help this, because ultimately it plays too much like a different game to offer any valuable lesson, but I do think DE ought to try incorporating some preexisting elements more, such as the obstacle courses they released for the Dojo, or those shooting challenges in the Kela de Thaym mission. There's been some amount of progress in this respect with the new Corpus Gas City tileset, which has multiple levels of movement mastery that reward the player for using parkour, then Void Dashing in the right spaces. With that kind of design, plus more diverse enemies, perhaps more diverse weak spots, and so on, there would already be greater diversity to play. Perhaps DE at some point could also experiment with some faster-moving/parkouring enemies, at which point Conclave would in fact have some proper carry-over, but beyond that PvE's development will have to come from itself, not from borrowing the design of its failed PvP mode.

 

31 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

These are platitudes that could just as well be said for PvP, though, which is why the Ignis has become so popular. You are conflating the ability to tone down difficulty with baseline level of difficulty here, in a manner that ultimately says very little about difficulty in the game.

I'm gonna mainly focus on this, while also borrowing a bit from what you said much earlier. I think the ability to make a task easy very much goes hand-in-hand with its overall difficulty, so yes, I would say the same about PvP, if I thought that was the same case. (Ignis just isn't that good. I can talk about that more if necessary.) If a player knows how to make something easy, not doing so is simply making it harder for themselves by holding back on that.

I am curious about how you'd determine baseline difficulty. Let's say we're talking about a primary weapon build, which the quality of determines the difficulty of the mission, for example. I determine difficulty using the best build the player can put together. I'd guess that your baseline would be something average. A truly average build would be the average of all possible mod configs, most of which would exclude the essential mods, just because of how the ratios line up. Because of that, there'd presumably be some essentials account for, but is there a nonarbitrary way to define that? (As far as I can tell, anything other than minimum and maximum viability are arbitrary choices for this, and with minimum being a poor choice, maximum is the only objectively good one.)

It also seems like, to some degree, you would agree with my stance here, based on the older quote I got from you. The game doesn't really test players' stealth, agility, nor accuracy in most cases, and I think we could agree on the same thing with other skills. Players can make the game easy, and quite often choose to do so. As I've said before, a lot of those skills can be rewarding, but to mostly disappointing degrees.

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8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Even with cheese builds, unless you're playing Inaros you're going to have to know how to use the Operator properly to avoid dying to excessively high enemy burst damage, and also need to manage your abilities far more actively than in Conclave. PvE does struggle in providing diversity of challenge, but to call it completely unchallenging is neither true nor fair, and only undermines your point while highlighting an attitude problem core to the Conclave community.

There are numerous ways I can afk for long periods of time than with just inaros. A person can become invisible with Ivara for nearly 10 minutes. A persone\ can solo every spy mission in the game with Ivara and her augment. If there is a spy mission, all you have to do is equip Ivara and you win. If there is a defense or mobile defense,  bring Saryn with Vazarin equipped(on the off case that the pod, or station, or dude, or whatever) takes damage and you win. If there is a survival, you can bring any frame that you want and win. To me and to many others on the forums, there is no challenge in PvE. I did have fun in the recent grendel missions though, those were kinda hard and I had to think about how I was going to win.

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7 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I'm gonna mainly focus on this, while also borrowing a bit from what you said much earlier. I think the ability to make a task easy very much goes hand-in-hand with its overall difficulty, so yes, I would say the same about PvP, if I thought that was the same case. (Ignis just isn't that good. I can talk about that more if necessary.) If a player knows how to make something easy, not doing so is simply making it harder for themselves by holding back on that.

Except I'm not talking about overall difficulty, I'm talking about baseline difficulty, i.e. the minimum amount of difficulty on offer. Because PvE largely doesn't have a competitive atmosphere among players, there is ample room for players to challenge themselves, even if they can lower the difficulty down to some minimum via cheese builds (which nonetheless do not eliminate all difficulty entirely). Because PvP does, however, its overall difficulty is also its baseline, which just so happens to be notoriously dependent on cheese by the same rights as PvE. You may therefore not openly think that the situation would be the same, but even an iota of rational thinking proves otherwise.

7 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I am curious about how you'd determine baseline difficulty. Let's say we're talking about a primary weapon build, which the quality of determines the difficulty of the mission, for example. I determine difficulty using the best build the player can put together. I'd guess that your baseline would be something average. A truly average build would be the average of all possible mod configs, most of which would exclude the essential mods, just because of how the ratios line up. Because of that, there'd presumably be some essentials account for, but is there a nonarbitrary way to define that? (As far as I can tell, anything other than minimum and maximum viability are arbitrary choices for this, and with minimum being a poor choice, maximum is the only objectively good one.)

See above. Baseline difficulty as defined is the minimum amount of difficulty presented by a piece of content. Your argument was that this baseline level of difficulty couldn't possibly exist on the grounds that difficulty can be lowered by some amount, which makes strictly no sense.

7 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

It also seems like, to some degree, you would agree with my stance here, based on the older quote I got from you. The game doesn't really test players' stealth, agility, nor accuracy in most cases, and I think we could agree on the same thing with other skills. Players can make the game easy, and quite often choose to do so. As I've said before, a lot of those skills can be rewarding, but to mostly disappointing degrees.

You are committing the exact same mistake I already pointed out now multiple times above, by claiming that the game cannot be challenging at all simply because some individual forms of challenge, whether real or theoretical, can be lowered or bypassed. Moreover, though, you are also quote mining me, as my opinion on the matter also includes the following:

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But teammates will reduce the difficulty in any sort of game, and even then, that has no bearing on whether any individual player will be able to survive a hit unless someone's playing a support frame like Trinity. I also fail to see what the distinction is between Sorties and Arbitrations or Kuva farming, as you all play them as often as you want, with Sorties being capped harder than the latter two. No matter how you slice it, high-level PvE players face high-level enemies, capable of taking anyone down quickly if you're not paying attention.

Emphasis added to the last sentence. This was in the same post you pulled your second quote, which suggests your omission here was not simply an oversight, but a deliberate attempt to misrepresent my point. This is rather troubling, considering the person you are attempting to dupe here appears to be the same person you are misquoting, with the quotes in question coming from posts made within the same page of this thread. As it stands, I can agree with you that PvE could be doing much more to challenge the player, but I have also made it very clear why I do not believe Conclave provides any model for achieving such a goal, nor why the shortcomings of PvE erase what difficulty it does have.

6 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

There are numerous ways I can afk for long periods of time than with just inaros. A person can become invisible with Ivara for nearly 10 minutes.

And achieve... what, exactly?

6 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

A persone\ can solo every spy mission in the game with Ivara and her augment.

As one should be able to do given appropriate experience and skill, given that Spy vaults do not require multiple players to run any single one at a time.

6 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

If there is a spy mission, all you have to do is equip Ivara and you win.

This is patently false, given how many of them would be too slow to cheese through her augment alone. Again, I'm confused by this dated focus on Ivara when she's fallen a fair bit out of favor since her last few nerfs to Prowl.

6 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

If there is a defense or mobile defense,  bring Saryn with Vazarin equipped(on the off case that the pod, or station, or dude, or whatever) takes damage and you win.

I'm usually the last person to defend Saryn in her current state, but I invite you to test that assumption in any high-level mission, as Saryn alone will not save the defense objective despite her ridiculously overpowered kit.

6 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

If there is a survival, you can bring any frame that you want and win.

... which is why most players weren't able to complete the 1 hour Survival challenge, amirite?

6 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

To me and to many others on the forums, there is no challenge in PvE. I did have fun in the recent grendel missions though, those were kinda hard and I had to think about how I was going to win.

And to many more on the forums and beyond, there is no value in PvP, and the Grendel missions themselves were poorly-designed and visibly not playtested, as they too can also be cheesed. You are in the wrong discussion to attempt to argue from consensus.

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Except I'm not talking about overall difficulty, I'm talking about baseline difficulty, i.e. the minimum amount of difficulty on offer. Because PvE largely doesn't have a competitive atmosphere among players, there is ample room for players to challenge themselves, even if they can lower the difficulty down to some minimum via cheese builds (which nonetheless do not eliminate all difficulty entirely). Because PvP does, however, its overall difficulty is also its baseline, which just so happens to be notoriously dependent on cheese by the same rights as PvE. You may therefore not openly think that the situation would be the same, but even an iota of rational thinking proves otherwise.

 

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

See above. Baseline difficulty as defined is the minimum amount of difficulty presented by a piece of content. Your argument was that this baseline level of difficulty couldn't possibly exist on the grounds that difficulty can be lowered by some amount, which makes strictly no sense.

It's not that a baseline difficulty can't exist, but it would be difficult to determine and/or almost never actually applied.

If it truly is based on minimum difficulty, that would be determined by the easiest setup to use in it, which goes right along with what I was saying about it. If you downgrade at all, the difficulty is not minimized.

I could explain more, but I just need to confirm weather or not you meant to say 'maximum' rather than 'minimum'. I can't tell weather that's a mistake or not, so I don't wanna spend a lot of time against that yet.

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yes. likely, perhaps not. and the 99% of the Community are possibly too toxic to allow PvP to exist anyways even though they aren't going to play it.

the lack of being able to play Variants, and Conclave not currently allowed to have relevant/useful Rewards really hurts it if you ask me. in order to play Conclave, you have to play that on top of the like like 400hrs per month it asks you to play of it already. you literally waste your time playing Conclave, because it is not allowed to get you some PvE progression.

i'd also take the easy way out to bandaiding things for now by having a no Abilities version of every Gamemode. since Abilities are just a total minefield i'd accept turning them all off to simplify managing the existence of Conclave.
as much as i love Molt, i'll sacrifice it for this.

that still leaves the Damage Types being more complex than the game can support, essentially making an ideal Damage Type distribution which indicates something isn't working quite right.

 

not to mention that indirect PvP Gamemodes could be offered through Conclave, to widen the amount of Content that it offers. as i've said numerous times, Conclave need not exclusively be 'the PvP' thing, so much as be 'the Competitive thing'. why not take inspiration from Event / Mission Leaderboards and offer Asynchronous PvP in various forms. you can even think of Speedrunning included there... it could be imagined like Guiness World Records-lite for Warframe. who can complete __ the fastest? how about the most Kills? taking the least Damage? you can probably imagine many more types of competition there.

- - - - - 

but anyways make no mistake, the 99% that don't and won't play Conclave are so toxic against the rest that it may not happen. but it's poltically correct to be toxic in that direction or something while not the other, double standards as usual or idon'tevenknow.
most of the regular/active/contributing Players for Conclave are anything but toxic, in a crude irony to what the peasants would like to paint. i don't know why other peoples' insecurities are allowed to be used as weapons but that's how things work i guess, i don't know.

hell, if i had a nickel for everytime i heard the "well no Dedicated Servers" excuse even though Conclave has had Dedicated Servers for years.

 

on a side note, what i do definitely know is that turning Conclave into Call of Duty is not a way to make it better. if you don't like that Warframe has Parkour and you realize that it's out of your league - that's ok - just don't try to take a steaming pile on everyone else just because it's not for you.

Edited by taiiat
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7 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:
It's not that a baseline difficulty can't exist, but it would be difficult to determine and/or almost never actually applied.

If it truly is based on minimum difficulty, that would be determined by the easiest setup to use in it, which goes right along with what I was saying about it. If you downgrade at all, the difficulty is not minimized.

I could explain more, but I just need to confirm weather or not you meant to say 'maximum' rather than 'minimum'. I can't tell weather that's a mistake or not, so I don't wanna spend a lot of time against that yet.

No, I really meant minimum, as in the easiest you can make a mission. My point is that even if you do bring the cheesiest build around, it's not going to auto-win the game for you, and isn't going to be covered by a Conclave skillset either due to relying on mechanics not found there, e.g. Operator Mode.

3 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Nobody is saying that conclave fixes PvE or helps PvE be challenging to the player. .

Then what are you saying? Because so far the challenge has been to prove how Conclave relates at all to PvE or can provide a positive contribution to the rest of Warframe, a challenge that has yet to be met.

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4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

No, I really meant minimum, as in the easiest you can make a mission. My point is that even if you do bring the cheesiest build around, it's not going to auto-win the game for you, and isn't going to be covered by a Conclave skillset either due to relying on mechanics not found there, e.g. Operator Mode.

Well, while I wouldn't personally describe it as an auto-win, but in a lot of cases, it's mostly still going to come down to only the most basic attention skills. In survival, it can generally be paying attention to an invisibility timer. Defense, mainly keeping your energy up. Of course, some missions require more nuance than others, but there'll mostly be the same general trend, and there are multiple really easy methods for most missions too.

Of course, seeing as I'm arguing that the game is this easy, conclave skills are anything but required. I'm pretty sure I said this already, but the main point that I have about that is that they can be rewarding, even if to a lacking degree. For example, in survival, there's a hard minimum completion time, so extra efficient killing won't make it go by faster. Exterminate is about the exact opposite though, in which you can probably imagine what a skilled player using a Concentrated Arrow Ivara build can do. This can apply to a variety of setups and situations.

An extra point that I want to make about this is that in conclave, you are using many mechanics which players tend to rely on in PvE. There are some differences, like how operator mode is PvE only, but it's also a good example to show my point with, since I'm arguing for skill reward making for more efficiency rather than ease. (It would be pretty ridiculous if I was saying that the game was overall easy, while requiring skill.) When it comes to stuff like operator mode, it's a question of weather or not it's the most efficient option available. There are a lot of cases where it can be, like if you just need to travel quickly, although if you're looking to kill while moving, you're usually better off using your frame and/or regular weapons.

So you may be trying to get headshots to boost your mobility using Arcane Consequence and Deft Tempo respectively, dealing with an annoying frame like *those* Limbo or Frost users or someone with the wrong Nova build. You could be on Hydron leveling some new, weak gear, yet be able to kill more efficiently than others, because of your skill. Likewise you could be helping people level or farm focus on Hydron, and use skills to outdo the meta frames. Some change could be made to the fame, in which your skills allow you to easily adapt to. 

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8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Then what are you saying? Because so far the challenge has been to prove how Conclave relates at all to PvE or can provide a positive contribution to the rest of Warframe, a challenge that has yet to be met.

Conclave provides a positive contribution to the rest of warframe by simply existing. More content in the game doesn't hurt. Especially when that content has a dedicated community that plays it no matter what condition it is in.

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23 hours ago, taiiat said:

but anyways make no mistake, the 99% that don't and won't play Conclave are so toxic against the rest that it may not happen. but it's poltically correct to be toxic in that direction or something while not the other, double standards as usual or idon'tevenknow.
most of the regular/active/contributing Players for Conclave are anything but toxic, in a crude irony to what the peasants would like to paint. i don't know why other peoples' insecurities are allowed to be used as weapons but that's how things work i guess, i don't know.

hell, if i had a nickel for everytime i heard the "well no Dedicated Servers" excuse even though Conclave has had Dedicated Servers for years.

 

on a side note, what i do definitely know is that turning Conclave into Call of Duty is not a way to make it better. if you don't like that Warframe has Parkour and you realize that it's out of your league - that's ok - just don't try to take a steaming pile on everyone else just because it's not for you.

I think you have, metaphorically, bitten into the meat of this matter. There are people who will despise conclave no matter what it does or how much effort DE puts into it, I must thank you for at least acknowledging this is something that happens and that there are people that sincerely do this sort of thing. Many folks do not believe this phenomenon actually occurs.

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13 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Conclave provides a positive contribution to the rest of warframe by simply existing.

How?

Quote

More content in the game doesn't hurt.

It is when it's not good, that's why content gets reworked or removed.

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Especially when that content has a dedicated community that plays it no matter what condition it is in.

That didn't save Trials, though, which had a far larger community. Even the worst games out there will still have some subgroup of people wanting to play them, so that really isn't an indicator of success when the group is as small as the Conclave community.

17 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Well, while I wouldn't personally describe it as an auto-win, but in a lot of cases, it's mostly still going to come down to only the most basic attention skills. In survival, it can generally be paying attention to an invisibility timer. Defense, mainly keeping your energy up. Of course, some missions require more nuance than others, but there'll mostly be the same general trend, and there are multiple really easy methods for most missions too.

Of course, seeing as I'm arguing that the game is this easy, conclave skills are anything but required. I'm pretty sure I said this already, but the main point that I have about that is that they can be rewarding, even if to a lacking degree. For example, in survival, there's a hard minimum completion time, so extra efficient killing won't make it go by faster. Exterminate is about the exact opposite though, in which you can probably imagine what a skilled player using a Concentrated Arrow Ivara build can do. This can apply to a variety of setups and situations.

I fail to see where Conclave skills would apply there, either, as Exterminate run efficiency isn't determined by accuracy so much as ability use and choice of weapon (and usually it involves AoE). As mentioned above "basic attention skills" only get you so far, and as you go into higher-level missions you're going to have to use abilities much more frequently and have a finger on the Operator button ready to avoid death, particularly as increasingly more enemies can detect invisibility, for example. Not only is your assessment of PvE reductive to the point of inaccuracy, it also doesn't acknowledge that the actual differentiating factors rely on aspects of the game that don't exist in the Conclave at all.

Quote

An extra point that I want to make about this is that in conclave, you are using many mechanics which players tend to rely on in PvE. There are some differences, like how operator mode is PvE only, but it's also a good example to show my point with, since I'm arguing for skill reward making for more efficiency rather than ease. (It would be pretty ridiculous if I was saying that the game was overall easy, while requiring skill.) When it comes to stuff like operator mode, it's a question of weather or not it's the most efficient option available. There are a lot of cases where it can be, like if you just need to travel quickly, although if you're looking to kill while moving, you're usually better off using your frame and/or regular weapons.

Okay, so this point is very confused, not least because you just got done trashing PvE for boiling down to "only the most basic attention skills", which means associating PvP with has you not saying much good about the mode you're defending either: you can tell me PvE requires no real skill at all, or you can tell me PvP has similar gameplay to PvE, but you can't really have your cake and snub it too, unless you also intend to diminish both by association. As per the above, there are key differences in skillsets regardless of perceived difficulty, so while I can very much agree with you that the game should do more in PvE to reward challenge, rather than ease (i.e. more frame designs like Garuda, fewer like Inaros), the way to do that is still going to look nothing like the Conclave.

Quote

So you may be trying to get headshots to boost your mobility using Arcane Consequence and Deft Tempo respectively, dealing with an annoying frame like *those* Limbo or Frost users or someone with the wrong Nova build. You could be on Hydron leveling some new, weak gear, yet be able to kill more efficiently than others, because of your skill. Likewise you could be helping people level or farm focus on Hydron, and use skills to outdo the meta frames. Some change could be made to the fame, in which your skills allow you to easily adapt to. 

I mean, there is a pretty notable difference in skill between an experienced PvE player and a newcomer, such that advanced players will always be able to parkour, shoot, and use the game's mechanics far more effectively than someone who has yet to master those systems, even with similar gear levels, so what you're advocating here is already in effect. I can, however, agree that power progression muddies the waters significantly by making the game easier overall for veterans regardless of skill, in both PvE and PvP, and that doesn't need to exist if players could customize through a purely flat progression and customization system.

Edited by Teridax68
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15 hours ago, (XB1)Longfinger LOKI said:

I think you have, metaphorically, bitten into the meat of this matter. There are people who will despise conclave no matter what it does or how much effort DE puts into it, I must thank you for at least acknowledging this is something that happens and that there are people that sincerely do this sort of thing. Many folks do not believe this phenomenon actually occurs.

This is indeed a real phenomena. Many people don't like the fact that PvP exists at all.

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13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I fail to see where Conclave skills would apply there, either, as Exterminate run efficiency isn't determined by accuracy so much as ability use and choice of weapon (and usually it involves AoE). As mentioned above "basic attention skills" only get you so far, and as you go into higher-level missions you're going to have to use abilities much more frequently and have a finger on the Operator button ready to avoid death, particularly as increasingly more enemies can detect invisibility, for example. Not only is your assessment of PvE reductive to the point of inaccuracy, it also doesn't acknowledge that the actual differentiating factors rely on aspects of the game that don't exist in the Conclave at all.

I gave a specific example. Some math can help show my point though. A max range Concentrated Arrow has roughly a 20m blast radius, which is about a 1,200m area. (I'm not using volume, because the general lack of enemies' vertical distribution makes the areas' heights rarely matter.) Other AOE weapons, like Ogris and Staticor, really can't match that. Even against sortie level, armored enemies, it's damage is quite high too. With a sustained fire rate of 1 shot per second, give or take depending on the build, so it covers that area every second. For comparison, a fully charged Staticor shot with Fulmination would cover about a 300m area, meaning it would need to fire about 4 times per second to cover the same ground. It could fire that fast in a burst if it got +300% fire rate, although it would need to reload after about 2.3 seconds of that without a mag cap boost.

There's a lot of nuance to this, like Concentrated Arrow arrow making Arcane Consequence buffs easier to activate than a weapon like Staticor or Ogris, and other AOE weapons being much less limited by accuracy. Discussing all of the intricacies of this comparison is probably not worth either of our times, while you surely have your own opinions about which weapons are best, you should, at the very least, see how something like Artemis Bow with Concentrated Arrow the potential to be (one of) the best.

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, so this point is very confused, not least because you just got done trashing PvE for boiling down to "only the most basic attention skills"

You seem to have missed my distinction between requirement and reward. PvE does require, as I said, only the most basic attention skills, in the same way how sorties only require a level 30 frame and a weapon. PvE rewards a variety of different skills in the same way that sorties reward good choices of frames, weapons, and mods. (Granted, to varying degrees.)

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

which means associating PvP with has you not saying much good about the mode you're defending either: you can tell me PvE requires no real skill at all, or you can tell me PvP has similar gameplay to PvE, but you can't really have your cake and snub it too, unless you also intend to diminish both by association. As per the above, there are key differences in skillsets regardless of perceived difficulty, so while I can very much agree with you that the game should do more in PvE to reward challenge, rather than ease (i.e. more frame designs like Garuda, fewer like Inaros), the way to do that is still going to look nothing like the Conclave.

So yes, and I can say that PvE requires no real skill at all, and that PvP has similar gameplay to PvE. I'd like to be more specific than that though, since purely the notion of similarities is vague, and potentially misleading. The main similarity that I'd like to note is that both PvE and PvE use mostly the same mechanics, which are scaled to different degrees. This is why many conclave players use PvE to practice certain skills, especially aiming. Likewise, many conclave players believe that playing conclave has improved their PvE gameplay, myself included. For example, being able to easily hit dargyns with my Ogris is PoE, as well as using it to place shots where they can deal the most damage to multiple enemies, targeting enemies which can't yet be seen, and even pure precision. (The precision is for damage in PvP, and while it will give some extra damage in OvE, which will matter every now and then, it's more so for Arcane Consequence.)

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I mean, there is a pretty notable difference in skill between an experienced PvE player and a newcomer, such that advanced players will always be able to parkour, shoot, and use the game's mechanics far more effectively than someone who has yet to master those systems, even with similar gear levels, so what you're advocating here is already in effect. I can, however, agree that power progression muddies the waters significantly by making the game easier overall for veterans regardless of skill, in both PvE and PvP, and that doesn't need to exist if players could customize through a purely flat progression and customization system.

It doesn't seem like we disagree much here. Of course you can gain PvE skill by playing PvE. I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'advanced players' but if its advanced in any way other than skill, not so much. We've both probably seen players who get lazier as their gear gets better, which eventually leads to a reduction in skill. If you mean advanced in terms of skill, then you're just saying that skilled players are more skilled that new players.

What I was more so saying was that PvP gameplay can improve PvE skills. The important thing here is that it happens to different degrees. As I said before, many PvP players use PvE enemies as an efficient way of improving their aim, particularly the snapping aspect. Other skills are most effectively practiced in different ways, like how leading shots is more efficiently practiced in PvP. 

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I gave a specific example. Some math can help show my point though. A max range Concentrated Arrow has roughly a 20m blast radius, which is about a 1,200m area. (I'm not using volume, because the general lack of enemies' vertical distribution makes the areas' heights rarely matter.) Other AOE weapons, like Ogris and Staticor, really can't match that. Even against sortie level, armored enemies, it's damage is quite high too. With a sustained fire rate of 1 shot per second, give or take depending on the build, so it covers that area every second. For comparison, a fully charged Staticor shot with Fulmination would cover about a 300m area, meaning it would need to fire about 4 times per second to cover the same ground. It could fire that fast in a burst if it got +300% fire rate, although it would need to reload after about 2.3 seconds of that without a mag cap boost.

This is theorycrafting at its most disconnected from reality, as you are presuming a playstyle that maximizes range (at the expense of Power Strength), that headshots on every hit, and that happens to headshot enemies perfectly at the center of each group, as opposed to picking an Ignis Wraith, a Kitgun or a Tigris Prime, all of which can kill groups of higher-level enemies far more reliably. If you wanted to prove your example had any validity, you should've showcased a video of someone running Exterminate missions or the like far more efficiently than normal using the build you listed. As it stands, your proposed strat not only fails to dominate, but is simply not present in PvE.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

There's a lot of nuance to this, like Concentrated Arrow arrow making Arcane Consequence buffs easier to activate than a weapon like Staticor or Ogris, and other AOE weapons being much less limited by accuracy. Discussing all of the intricacies of this comparison is probably not worth either of our times, while you surely have your own opinions about which weapons are best, you should, at the very least, see how something like Artemis Bow with Concentrated Arrow the potential to be (one of) the best.

No, I don't, because I actually play PvE enough to know that what you're pushing here is just a paper fantasy. If balance were different, perhaps you'd have a point, but as it stands I've never even seen a Concentrated Arrow Ivara in a squad, let alone heard of any optimal strat involving such a build.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

You seem to have missed my distinction between requirement and reward. PvE does require, as I said, only the most basic attention skills, in the same way how sorties only require a level 30 frame and a weapon. PvE rewards a variety of different skills in the same way that sorties reward good choices of frames, weapons, and mods. (Granted, to varying degrees.)

Your mental gymnastics here apply just as easily to PvP, which only require one to jump in without any presumption of skill, but reward people playing into its meta with Standing and the like. One of its modes doesn't even have any gear or frame differentiation.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

So yes, and I can say that PvE requires no real skill at all, and that PvP has similar gameplay to PvE. I'd like to be more specific than that though, since purely the notion of similarities is vague, and potentially misleading. The main similarity that I'd like to note is that both PvE and PvE use mostly the same mechanics, which are scaled to different degrees. This is why many conclave players use PvE to practice certain skills, especially aiming. Likewise, many conclave players believe that playing conclave has improved their PvE gameplay, myself included. For example, being able to easily hit dargyns with my Ogris is PoE, as well as using it to place shots where they can deal the most damage to multiple enemies, targeting enemies which can't yet be seen, and even pure precision. (The precision is for damage in PvP, and while it will give some extra damage in OvE, which will matter every now and then, it's more so for Arcane Consequence.)

"Believe" being the operative word here, as Conclave has failed to produce any notable PvE players when many abound. Moreover, your comparison still falls under the flaws I've pointed out, as per the immediate above. You cannot seriously hope to lower PvE and raise up PvP, all while claiming both use the same mechanics, especially since videos of gameplay shown on this very thread clearly demonstrate the two modes do not play the same.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

It doesn't seem like we disagree much here. Of course you can gain PvE skill by playing PvE. I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'advanced players' but if its advanced in any way other than skill, not so much. We've both probably seen players who get lazier as their gear gets better, which eventually leads to a reduction in skill. If you mean advanced in terms of skill, then you're just saying that skilled players are more skilled that new players.

... yes, which is a basic fact you seem to be denying nonetheless. Ultimately, there is a critical difference between our opinions here, in that you've so far been very intent on trashing PvE in an attempt to raise PvP over it, while still somehow also attempting to claim PvP contributes positively to PvE, despite having already all but admitted it doesn't. Meanwhile, I'm not denying the learning curve in either mode, so much as merely pointing out that PvP visibly plays differently from PvE, to the point where the two modes have very little to do with each other. Thus, not only is PvP unpopular in its own right, it just doesn't really fit in Warframe.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

What I was more so saying was that PvP gameplay can improve PvE skills. The important thing here is that it happens to different degrees. As I said before, many PvP players use PvE enemies as an efficient way of improving their aim, particularly the snapping aspect. Other skills are most effectively practiced in different ways, like how leading shots is more efficiently practiced in PvP. 

Whether PvP "can improve" PvE skills is a rather weak argument to be making when there is no concrete evidence to support this, despite Conclave being in the game for years. At the end of the day, I think we both know this line of argumentation is defunct, as PvP clearly doesn't bleed into PvE, and players in general seem pretty happy with that. PvE certainly has room to test the player better on a greater variety of skills, but as pointed out above, copying PvP will never make any sense, not least because there's no point to applying a proven losing formula to an overall success.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Conclave is a mode that functions with very little input from DE. It's content in the game that subset of players are dedicated to enough to keep playing for years despite DE putting barely any effort into it. 

But it doesn't really function even by the admission of the PvP players here, though, and dedicated as it may be, the Conclave community does not make up even a single percent of the total playerbase. Meanwhile, it does in fact tax DE's resources, simply because it is part of the live service the developers have to keep running, to say nothing of whichever developers are left to do the translation work on new additions and reworks. Really, you aren't making a solid case at all for Conclave here if the best thing you can say about it is that it can be safely abandoned and forgotten forever.

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21 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But it doesn't really function even by the admission of the PvP players here, though, and dedicated as it may be, the Conclave community does not make up even a single percent of the total playerbase. Meanwhile, it does in fact tax DE's resources, simply because it is part of the live service the developers have to keep running, to say nothing of whichever developers are left to do the translation work on new additions and reworks. Really, you aren't making a solid case at all for Conclave here if the best thing you can say about it is that it can be safely abandoned and forgotten forever.

How does removing conclave benefit warframe?

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1 minute ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

How does removing conclave benefit warframe?

It excises a failed mode from the game and allows it to consolidate itself, while also removing the burden of having to translate and balance PvE additions into a dysfunctional format in the future. Additionally, it would put an end to the conflicts around PvP here: players criticizing Conclave would stop complaining, whereas PvP players would no longer have the false hope that DE would give Conclave some big update to make it actually good in the future. Additionally, it could allow Teshin to be reincorporated into the universe in such a way that players would be made more aware of his existence prior to The War Within, and just save memory usage. Really, it's not a huge deal, though it'd still be an improvement.

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1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

It excises a failed mode from the game and allows it to consolidate itself, while also removing the burden of having to translate and balance PvE additions into a dysfunctional format in the future. Additionally, it would put an end to the conflicts around PvP here: players criticizing Conclave would stop complaining, whereas PvP players would no longer have the false hope that DE would give Conclave some big update to make it actually good in the future. Additionally, it could allow Teshin to be reincorporated into the universe in such a way that players would be made more aware of his existence prior to The War Within, and just save memory usage. Really, it's not a huge deal, though it'd still be an improvement.

How is it a failed game mode?

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

How is it a failed game mode?

Because the number of players who play it is disproportionately low relative to the amount of work that was put into it and that is still required of it, in addition to being a hyper-minority of players in a game whose registered player count is in the tens of millions. So few people play Conclave that it is often notoriously difficult to even find a match, to say nothing of how universally lambasted it is across every discussion space relating to Warframe, and generally regarded as a joke. How is Conclave not a failed game mode?

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