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Do you think PVP can be successful ?


(PSN)Akuma_Asura_
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PVP needs a revamp away from playing as the warframes.

Instead PVP should be different types of gamemodes playing as more tangibly grounded characters, not godlike beings who can melt entire rooms of enemies, but as characters that are flawed and mortal.

for example, here's 2 things to make it more enjoyable and grounded.

1. Standard PVP is grineer vs corpus with health and damage values set at a certain point to make it fair, warframes can be like killstreaks or drops similar to a Star Wars BF where you can pick a hero like luke etc. or even one of your LICH converts.  OMG IM BRINGING THINGS TOGETHER from other features of the game.

2. A Survival Gamemode, where players can pick their grineer/corpus squad and survive against deadly infested enemies, Similar to Left 4 Dead in space. And opposing infested players can pick certain infested enemies to go against the players.

Also imagine being able to customize your own grineer or corpus or infested characters.

 

Doubt this type of thing would ever get traction since DE is too focused on other things.

Edited by TeaVice
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1 minute ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Warframes aren't gods that melt rooms anymore. Conclave 2.0 removed the super high damages you can deal with abilities.

Oh so its even worse.

So they take all the progress players made over the years and just throw it out the window on their favorite frames to make them weak, instead of taking already grounded characters in the Warframe universe and pitting them against each other.

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Just now, TeaVice said:

Oh so its even worse.

So they take all the progress players made over the years and just throw it out the window on their favorite frames to make them weak, instead of taking already grounded characters in the Warframe universe and pitting them against each other.

No, the warframes are not weak. Ultimates still get multiple kills, if used at the right time. 1st and 2nd abilities are usually good finishers/impairs/knockdowns. The warframes are in a good place when it comes to strength. Dual Swords however? Now those can nuke rooms.

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13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is theorycrafting at its most disconnected from reality, as you are presuming a playstyle that maximizes range (at the expense of Power Strength), that headshots on every hit, and that happens to headshot enemies perfectly at the center of each group, as opposed to picking an Ignis Wraith, a Kitgun or a Tigris Prime, all of which can kill groups of higher-level enemies far more reliably. If you wanted to prove your example had any validity, you should've showcased a video of someone running Exterminate missions or the like far more efficiently than normal using the build you listed. As it stands, your proposed strat not only fails to dominate, but is simply not present in PvE

You're definitely right about the video thing. Hopefully there's soon a good sortie exterminate that I can show it in. The stronger the enemies, the better, because the weapon's damage matters more, and it's easier to combo shots with the stagger. You are overstating the skill requirement here though. I did mention accuracy limitations as part of the nuance about it, for example, but that is accounted for. The numbers I gave are actually enough to roughly figure out Concentrated Arrow's headshot accuracy requirement to outdo Staticor, which is about 50%.

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is theorycrafting at its most disconnected from reality, as you are presuming a playstyle that maximizes range (at the expense of Power Strength), that headshots on every hit, and that happens to headshot enemies perfectly at the center of each group, as opposed to picking an Ignis Wraith, a Kitgun or a Tigris Prime, all of which can kill groups of higher-level enemies far more reliably. If you wanted to prove your example had any validity, you should've showcased a video of someone running Exterminate missions or the like far more efficiently than normal using the build you listed. As it stands, your proposed strat not only fails to dominate, but is simply not present in PvE

This suggests that your judgement of it is purely based on your own experience. I understand doubting the honesty and/or validity of my claims, but this is just complete dismissal after little to no effort in finding confirmation.

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

"Believe" being the operative word here, as Conclave has failed to produce any notable PvE players when many abound. Moreover, your comparison still falls under the flaws I've pointed out, as per the immediate above. You cannot seriously hope to lower PvE and raise up PvP, all while claiming both use the same mechanics, especially since videos of gameplay shown on this very thread clearly demonstrate the two modes do not play the same.

Again, I particularly wanted to specify what similarities I was talking about to avoid misleading claims like this. I was pretty specific.

14 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I'd like to be more specific than that though, since purely the notion of similarities is vague, and potentially misleading. The main similarity that I'd like to note is that both PvE and PvE use mostly the same mechanics, which are scaled to different degrees.

This is why I have to question your honesty, now. The idea that they play the same is just as vague as the idea that they're similar.

I've said a few things about not wanting to waste time here already. I can assure you that I'll have the patience to show what saying, as long as I know that you're understanding what I'm explaining. I've wasted a lot of time tasking people's challenges to prove myself, because for unknown reasons, people don't accept my results. I'm still happy to spend time doing such challenges, if there seems to a high chance that meeting the conditions would actually be accepted as a success.

Also, yes. It is hard to prove that PvP is the source any PvE skills that a player has, because overall skill progression is tedious to track, and for this it would need to be done for both PvE and PvP. I do have the PvP side of it compressed into one video, so I could try to see how my PvE clips line up with that. (I definitely wanna see how my clips where I directly hit dargyns with Ogris line up with my clips of directly hitting players with Ogris.) Even then though, it's only enough to show a personal pattern, so you'd ideally wanna compare the PvE and PvP skills of various conclave players, particularly the ones who enjoy PvE, find a widespread pattern.

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... yes, which is a basic fact you seem to be denying nonetheless. Ultimately, there is a critical difference between our opinions here, in that you've so far been very intent on trashing PvE in an attempt to raise PvP over it, while still somehow also attempting to claim PvP contributes positively to PvE, despite having already all but admitted it doesn't. Meanwhile, I'm not denying the learning curve in either mode, so much as merely pointing out that PvP visibly plays differently from PvE, to the point where the two modes have very little to do with each other. Thus, not only is PvP unpopular in its own right, it just doesn't really fit in Warframe.

 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Whether PvP "can improve" PvE skills is a rather weak argument to be making when there is no concrete evidence to support this, despite Conclave being in the game for years. At the end of the day, I think we both know this line of argumentation is defunct, as PvP clearly doesn't bleed into PvE, and players in general seem pretty happy with that. PvE certainly has room to test the player better on a greater variety of skills, but as pointed out above, copying PvP will never make any sense, not least because there's no point to applying a proven losing formula to an overall success.

I'm interested in seeing what I said which made it seem like I was denying that. I have to admit that I'm very bad when it comes to most sorts of implications, which is what leads to interpretations like that. Same thing when it comes to the thrashing thing. I can see how you might come to the conclusion that I don't like PvE (for the most part), which is true, but I never mean to give the impression that it is bad, overall. The most I'd normally say like that would be in reference to certain groups of players.

Also, I'd be highly reluctant to try to determine what fits in Warframe anymore. There's flower gathering, mining, ect.. I think you've heard it already.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

You're definitely right about the video thing. Hopefully there's soon a good sortie exterminate that I can show it in. The stronger the enemies, the better, because the weapon's damage matters more, and it's easier to combo shots with the stagger. You are overstating the skill requirement here though. I did mention accuracy limitations as part of the nuance about it, for example, but that is accounted for. The numbers I gave are actually enough to roughly figure out Concentrated Arrow's headshot accuracy requirement to outdo Staticor, which is about 50%.

Which still requires concrete evidence to demonstrate how much better your paper build actually is. As it stands, the complete lack of Concentrated Arrow builds in PvE, let alone videos showcasing the build's effectiveness, is not lending credence to all this big talk.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:
This suggests that your judgement of it is purely based on your own experience. I understand doubting the honesty and/or validity of my claims, but this is just complete dismissal after little to no effort in finding confirmation.

And this is a clear-cut case of projection, where you are displacing the onus of justifying your unlikely build upon me, when I have pointed out factors that are clearly beyond the realm of my own experience. I asked you to provide any evidence for your build working, which you've failed to do, even through external resources, and the weapons I listed as effective in PvE are near-universally infamous for just how good they are for mass murder. I doubt the honesty and validity of your claims not because of my experience or lack of effort, but simply because I'm not stupid, and I know this game better than you'd need for me to believe you. If you want to play the trite forum strategy of ignoring well-known facts and pretending things exist when they don't, all from the comfort of a medium disconnected from the actual game, then go ahead, but don't expect me to humor you.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Again, I particularly wanted to specify what similarities I was talking about to avoid misleading claims like this. I was pretty specific.

You weren't specific at all, you merely restated yourself on "mechanics" and made a whole bunch of further outlandish and unsupported claims, none of which detracted in any way from what I'd already pointed out about your fundamentally flawed argumentative approach. Your very quote that you reposted evidences this, and we both know you failed to mention even a single specific mechanic because you knew I'd be able to prove you wrong with evidence, such as the movement, the gunplay, the casting, as has already been done multiple times.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

This is why I have to question your honesty, now. The idea that they play the same is just as vague as the idea that they're similar.

Sure, but what I'm stating is that they have very little similarity, and so with specific arguments I listed on the above actually specific mechanics I listed, and which you know I listed. I am not the one being dishonest here, particularly as even you admitted the movement was dissimilar in both modes.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I've said a few things about not wanting to waste time here already. I can assure you that I'll have the patience to show what saying, as long as I know that you're understanding what I'm explaining. I've wasted a lot of time tasking people's challenges to prove myself, because for unknown reasons, people don't accept my results. I'm still happy to spend time doing such challenges, if there seems to a high chance that meeting the conditions would actually be accepted as a success.

The "unknown reasons" being that your claims come across as bogus, and that you expect people to take you up on your word when you try to make Conclave into something it clearly isn't, and never has been. The fact that you would consider substantiating your claims when asked a waste of time is itself telling.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Also, yes. It is hard to prove that PvP is the source any PvE skills that a player has, because overall skill progression is tedious to track, and for this it would need to be done for both PvE and PvP. I do have the PvP side of it compressed into one video, so I could try to see how my PvE clips line up with that. (I definitely wanna see how my clips where I directly hit dargyns with Ogris line up with my clips of directly hitting players with Ogris.) Even then though, it's only enough to show a personal pattern, so you'd ideally wanna compare the PvE and PvP skills of various conclave players, particularly the ones who enjoy PvE, find a widespread pattern.

So, in other words, you effectively cannot prove your claim, or even produce anything that would suggest your claim has any semblance of validity. How then are you expecting to convince anyone?

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I'm interested in seeing what I said which made it seem like I was denying that.

Well, this, for one:

On 2019-12-17 at 4:41 PM, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Well, while I wouldn't personally describe it as an auto-win, but in a lot of cases, it's mostly still going to come down to only the most basic attention skills. In survival, it can generally be paying attention to an invisibility timer. Defense, mainly keeping your energy up. Of course, some missions require more nuance than others, but there'll mostly be the same general trend, and there are multiple really easy methods for most missions too.

Your entire line of argumentation so far has been to deny the existence of challenge in PvE, so let's perhaps not kid ourselves here.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I have to admit that I'm very bad when it comes to most sorts of implications, which is what leads to interpretations like that. Same thing when it comes to the thrashing thing. I can see how you might come to the conclusion that I don't like PvE (for the most part), which is true, but I never mean to give the impression that it is bad, overall. The most I'd normally say like that would be in reference to certain groups of players.

So, in essence, you're telling me you weren't even trying to trash PvE, so much as trash PvE players. How is that in any way better?

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Also, I'd be highly reluctant to try to determine what fits in Warframe anymore. There's flower gathering, mining, ect.. I think you've heard it already.

Sure, but even so, those minigames are acknowledged to be outside of the core gameplay loop, and players in general do appear to have a strong consensus on what constitutes core gameplay in Warframe, and what doesn't. PvP falls distinctly into the latter camp, as its tiny player count would suggest.

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3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Which still requires concrete evidence to demonstrate how much better your paper build actually is. As it stands, the complete lack of Concentrated Arrow builds in PvE, let alone videos showcasing the build's effectiveness, is not lending credence to all this big talk

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And this is a clear-cut case of projection, where you are displacing the onus of justifying your unlikely build upon me, when I have pointed out factors that are clearly beyond the realm of my own experience. I asked you to provide any evidence for your build working, which you've failed to do, even through external resources, and the weapons I listed as effective in PvE are near-universally infamous for just how good they are for mass murder. I doubt the honesty and validity of your claims not because of my experience or lack of effort, but simply because I'm not stupid, and I know this game better than you'd need for me to believe you. If you want to play the trite forum strategy of ignoring well-known facts and pretending things exist when they don't, all from the comfort of a medium disconnected from the actual game, then go ahead, but don't expect me to humor you.

 

Sorry. I quoted the wrong part of your post when I was sauing that you seemed to be basing your judgement only in your own experience. This is what I meant to quote.

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Which still requires concrete evidence to demonstrate how much better your paper build actually is. As it stands, the complete lack of Concentrated Arrow builds in PvE, let alone videos showcasing the build's effectiveness, is not lending credence to all this big talk

This is what I meant to show, and what's part of the reason why I'm reluctant to go out if my way in attempt to prove something. You're not even accepting the fact that Concentrated Arrow Artemis Bow even has the potential to be one of the best weapons. Practicality is another layer added on to that, even if I managed to perform perfectly with it somehow, there would still be issues, in terms of proving my point to you, unless you really are being dishonest.

In either case, it would be best to talk about potential first. Though that, we can figure out how a player would need to perform for a satisfying amount of that potential to be applied. I've told you the basics of the math behind it, so I'll need you to tell me what issues you see.

Concentrated Arrow is just an example, so if it wouldn't be a suitable one to show you, we could talk about something like Quanta Vandal, Ogris, or Komorex, all of which I already have some footage of, although I'm not quite sure about the gameplay quality. Still, one of them would be a good way to speed this along.

We've accumulated a lot of subtopics with this. I don't mean to completely ignore any of them, but this is taking more time than I'd like. Feel free to mention 1 or 2 of the parts I missed, and I'll be sure to respond to them.

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Anything and everything DE decides to grace us with could be successful.  It entirely depends on how much they actually care about the item they're giving us.  But DE's current established pattern is just shoving new content out at an unsustainable rate for them and the game.  It's clearly done to keep vets busy but it's more so to make sure they continue to bring in new players since they keep hemmorraging long time players.  Yet they haven't fixed the new player experience either.

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On 2019-11-17 at 8:38 AM, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

So I’ve been around for dark sectors and obviously conclave . Dark sectors/Solar Rail conflicts were pretty well received by the community and people actually enjoyed participating in it back then, but with conclave it’s like 1-5% of the community even play conclave regularly, it’s truly unpopular. So I wanted to discuss so you think PVP in Warframe can ever be successful again in Warframe ? & if so how can it be fixed ? I personally feel like DE should have a team that specifically works on PVP 

No, that would require huge balancing between the frames and weapons and stuff which would end up killing the game, and the devs because of the work load.

Warframe is way too complicated to have PvP

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5 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Sorry. I quoted the wrong part of your post when I was sauing that you seemed to be basing your judgement only in your own experience. This is what I meant to quote.

 

This is what I meant to show, and what's part of the reason why I'm reluctant to go out if my way in attempt to prove something. You're not even accepting the fact that Concentrated Arrow Artemis Bow even has the potential to be one of the best weapons. Practicality is another layer added on to that, even if I managed to perform perfectly with it somehow, there would still be issues, in terms of proving my point to you, unless you really are being dishonest.

Practically is the defining factor here, as your perfect paper build is worth nothing if it doesn't translates to anything workable in actual play. As it stands, the utter lack of supporting evidence for said build actually working, in the face of the doubts I've listed, itself strongly suggests your PvP-esque build's superiority is only conjectural.

5 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

In either case, it would be best to talk about potential first. Though that, we can figure out how a player would need to perform for a satisfying amount of that potential to be applied. I've told you the basics of the math behind it, so I'll need you to tell me what issues you see.

You've told the basics while conveniently leaving out quite a few details, notably the fact that your builds maxes out range at the severe expense of Power Strength. The arrow's base damage is itself less than half of the Dread's, with also half the base crit chance and double the base charge time. You have therefore failed to justify why this build of yours would even equal that of the Dread, let alone the Lenz, given that you are making severe sacrifices just to hit the numbers you are citing, to say nothing of the aforementioned practicality issues.

5 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Concentrated Arrow is just an example, so if it wouldn't be a suitable one to show you, we could talk about something like Quanta Vandal, Ogris, or Komorex, all of which I already have some footage of, although I'm not quite sure about the gameplay quality. Still, one of them would be a good way to speed this along.

By all means, please show how any of those weapons can be used to meaningfully speed up PvE gameplay.

5 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

We've accumulated a lot of subtopics with this. I don't mean to completely ignore any of them, but this is taking more time than I'd like. Feel free to mention 1 or 2 of the parts I missed, and I'll be sure to respond to them.

At this point, I'm content with you simply substantiating your claims, as ultimately you and I both know that you're not going to prop up PvP at PvE's expense while still pretending that PvP has a place in an otherwise purely PvE game. Overall, I'm satisfied with whichever direction this takes, as you've effectively ceased to argue for Conclave having any merit or positive contribution in Warframe.

5 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Still higher than the player count of Raids.

Actually, Raids had a notably higher player count, and actually had something to do with PvE... yet still got removed. Food for thought.

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8 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

How can raids have a player count higher than conclave when they are not in the game?

I'd joke and say that it's because the player count for Conclave is that low, but really, when Trials were still around they had more players than Conclave ever did, which didn't stop Trials from being removed. It is that simple.

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10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Practically is the defining factor here, as your perfect paper build is worth nothing if it doesn't translates to anything workable in actual play. As it stands, the utter lack of supporting evidence for said build actually working, in the face of the doubts I've listed, itself strongly suggests your PvP-esque build's superiority is only conjectural.

 

Both potential and practicality really go together, and I think they're roughly equally important. For example, some setups are too bad to be efficient with, regardless of skillful a player may be. Likewise, a good setup might have a significant skill requirement, which will definitely be too much for some players.

11 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You've told the basics while conveniently leaving out quite a few details, notably the fact that your builds maxes out range at the severe expense of Power Strength. The arrow's base damage is itself less than half of the Dread's, with also half the base crit chance and double the base charge time. You have therefore failed to justify why this build of yours would even equal that of the Dread, let alone the Lenz, given that you are making severe sacrifices just to hit the numbers you are citing, to say nothing of the aforementioned practicality issues.

According to the wiki, Artemis Bow's base damage is exactly 5x that of Dread's. You're right about the base crit chance difference, but Concentrated Arrow's flat 50% crit chance boost mostly counteracts that, leaving only about a 19% total crit chance difference. Dread's speed is the only thing it really has going for it in this comparison. You seem to have also completely missed the fact that Concentrated Arrow has almost a 20m max explosion radius. That's justification enough over Dread, and is much higher than even Lenz'. This does come at the cost of strength, but not necessarily going below default. My usual build has about 130% power strength. I've left out build details, because there are a variety of good options for various players and missions. For example, I'm not someone who can aim with it quickly enough to outdo a lot of ability damage in low level missions. Higher levels are easier to compete in. Players who can do that would have highly reduced need for power strength and/or damage mods though, varying depending on the specific enemy level, so they'd use a build different than my usual.

11 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

By all means, please show how any of those weapons can be used to meaningfully speed up PvE gameplay.

https://youtu.be/cNVLyFSwuvM

It's a bit old, but most of what I show is still relevant. I think most people would best do this with a frame like Ember or Equinox. The idea is to have good ability based AOE, then Quanta Vandal would be good for both boosting speed and applying any extra AOE damage wherever needed. Quanta Vandal's primary fire's precision, fire rate, and lack of projectile travel time makes Quanta Vandal one of the easiest AOE weapons to get headshots with. Additionally, the decently consistent gas procs allow it to somewhat ignore corrupted enemies' invulnerability periods. I'm not sure why I wasn't using my Combustion Beam build in the first mission, but it's usually suitable for levels that low.

Similar applies other weapons I've mentioned, like Ogris being more suitable enemies with high EHP, for example. I think Quanta Vandal is the most easily showable example though.

Also, you can ignore the Excalibur gameplay. I don't think I showed that well, and I don't have much else to say about it.

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Its quite fun already and although its a small percentage of the total player base, it aint that hard to find ppl to play.

DE tried really hard to make it more popular solving most of the community issues in ingenious ways. Two examples:

1 Main concern of everyone was the lack of dedicated servers, however those r expensive to keep in a f2p game. DE came up with users servers which works well, kinda.

2 Lack of incentives to play. This one is tricky, because if u add good rewards u force ppl who dont like it to play. DE came up with cosmetics, but even that ppl complained. Then they came up with exclusive mods, which r harmless, right? Nope, ppl still complained.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:
Both potential and practicality really go together, and I think they're roughly equally important. For example, some setups are too bad to be efficient with, regardless of skillful a player may be. Likewise, a good setup might have a significant skill requirement, which will definitely be too much for some players.

That still boils down to practicality though. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good your build looks on paper, what matters is what it looks like when put into practice.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

According to the wiki, Artemis Bow's base damage is exactly 5x that of Dread's.

I have no idea where you pulled these numbers, because the wiki lists the Artemis Bow's damage at 160 per arrow, with the bow firing 7 arrows at a time at maximum rank. The augment removes all but one of those arrows without changing the latter's base damage, so given that the Dread's base damage per arrow is 336, it is in fact less than half. There is also a 1.5x damage mutiplier for the Artemis Bow, but given that it's affected by Power Strength and your proposed build so far has negative Strength, that does not play in your favor.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

You're right about the base crit chance difference, but Concentrated Arrow's flat 50% crit chance boost mostly counteracts that, leaving only about a 19% total crit chance difference. Dread's speed is the only thing it really has going for it in this comparison.

The bonus crit chance is only on headshot, though. Really, the reason why Concentrated Arrow isn't popular is because it's generally a nerf to the baseline weapon, as it removes the multiple shots and potential for punch-through, with the payoff being dubious relative to alternatives.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

You seem to have also completely missed the fact that Concentrated Arrow has almost a 20m max explosion radius. That's justification enough over Dread, and is much higher than even Lenz'. This does come at the cost of strength, but not necessarily going below default. My usual build has about 130% power strength. I've left out build details, because there are a variety of good options for various players and missions. For example, I'm not someone who can aim with it quickly enough to outdo a lot of ability damage in low level missions. Higher levels are easier to compete in. Players who can do that would have highly reduced need for power strength and/or damage mods though, varying depending on the specific enemy level, so they'd use a build different than my usual.

A 20m max explosion radius does not mean much when you cannot deal sufficient damage to consistently clear enemies; at least the Dread can secure kills when it hits, and so without needing to headshot. This is also why the Lenz sees more play, because it also doesn't have to jump through so many hoops to deal far more damage than either.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

https://youtu.be/cNVLyFSwuvM

It's a bit old, but most of what I show is still relevant. I think most people would best do this with a frame like Ember or Equinox. The idea is to have good ability based AOE, then Quanta Vandal would be good for both boosting speed and applying any extra AOE damage wherever needed. Quanta Vandal's primary fire's precision, fire rate, and lack of projectile travel time makes Quanta Vandal one of the easiest AOE weapons to get headshots with. Additionally, the decently consistent gas procs allow it to somewhat ignore corrupted enemies' invulnerability periods. I'm not sure why I wasn't using my Combustion Beam build in the first mission, but it's usually suitable for levels that low.

That's... really slow? Putting aside how one could go at that level range with Equinox or Hildryn and just walk through the mission, the Ignis is a notably faster alternative, due to its AoE capabilities and non-reliance on headshots. Even with a regular weapon and no frame abilities, there are plenty more alternatives that clear much faster without any need for precision. Just a look at your first mission run-through shows you only got 3 headshot kills and still went slowly despite using AoE damage abilities, which really doesn't showcase your headshot-centric build well.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Similar applies other weapons I've mentioned, like Ogris being more suitable enemies with high EHP, for example. I think Quanta Vandal is the most easily showable example though.

If this is what your builds play like, I fail to see how one would be convinced of the power of PvP-esque play in PvE. I'm also equally puzzled by the choice of the Ogris here, as the Tigris Prime does far better against high EHP targets, and can be far more easily modded to clear corridors.

 

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That still boils down to practicality though. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good your build looks on paper, what matters is what it looks like when put into practice.

Agreed. I'm saying this is more of a 'measure twice, cut once' sort of situation. It's usually not worth trying for practicality without enough potential shown.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I have no idea where you pulled these numbers, because the wiki lists the Artemis Bow's damage at 160 per arrow, with the bow firing 7 arrows at a time at maximum rank. The augment removes all but one of those arrows without changing the latter's base damage, so given that the Dread's base damage per arrow is 336, it is in fact less than half. There is also a 1.5x damage mutiplier for the Artemis Bow, but given that it's affected by Power Strength and your proposed build so far has negative Strength, that does not play in your favor.

On the subject of my proposed build's power strength...

3 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

My usual build has about 130% power strength. I've left out build details, because there are a variety of good options for various players and missions.

Not negative strength, and there's still a variety of options to choose from. Again, questionable honesty.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The bonus crit chance is only on headshot, though. Really, the reason why Concentrated Arrow isn't popular is because it's generally a nerf to the baseline weapon, as it removes the multiple shots and potential for punch-through, with the payoff being dubious relative to alternatives.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

A 20m max explosion radius does not mean much when you cannot deal sufficient damage to consistently clear enemies; at least the Dread can secure kills when it hits, and so without needing to headshot. This is also why the Lenz sees more play, because it also doesn't have to jump through so many hoops to deal far more damage than either.

Even assuming what you've said about the base damage is true, you're highly underestimating the total damage. If you look up the augment on Youtube, most of the first results can show that. With my specific search, 'Concentrated Arrow Ivara', the first 5 results all did so.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That's... really slow? Putting aside how one could go at that level range with Equinox or Hildryn and just walk through the mission, the Ignis is a notably faster alternative, due to its AoE capabilities and non-reliance on headshots. Even with a regular weapon and no frame abilities, there are plenty more alternatives that clear much faster without any need for precision. Just a look at your first mission run-through shows you only got 3 headshot kills and still went slowly despite using AoE damage abilities, which really doesn't showcase your headshot-centric build well.

I hit 4 headshots in the first 10 seconds, and seeing as the point of that is to buff parkour velocity, my point there still stands. (I probably actually got more kills from headshots, but if an enemy dies to gas proc DOT, it doesn't count as one in the stats. That might've been fixed, but it was definitely a bug back then. That's not important to my point, but feel free to investigate.)

And yes, I did specifically recommend Equinox. Almost every video I've uploaded is with a Oberon, so that's just what I happen to be able to show. Ignis doesn't seem like a bad choice. I don't have much to particularly say about it 

Also, people have generally said the exact opposite about my gameplay. I'm still a little unsure of how I compare to some of the better PC players in mechanical skill, but mine's definitely pretty high for a controller user, which quite a few forum users have agreed on. It was even the reason against most of the arguments I made then. I don't know if there's a way to see some of the older threads I've posted in, but if there is, you don't have to take my word for it.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If this is what your builds play like, I fail to see how one would be convinced of the power of PvP-esque play in PvE. I'm also equally puzzled by the choice of the Ogris here, as the Tigris Prime does far better against high EHP targets, and can be far more easily modded to clear corridors.

You're underestimating Ogris here, although it's hard to blame you for this one. There's a bit of glitch abuse, but here's an example of what it can do, and it's actually been buffed since, plus there's now Kuva Ogris, which I still need to get my hands on.

 

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Agreed. I'm saying this is more of a 'measure twice, cut once' sort of situation. It's usually not worth trying for practicality without enough potential shown.

I don't think we're disagreeing on the importance of potential, just the importance of practicality: you seem to be in favor of advocating unproven, invisible builds, whereas I'm of the much more old-fashioned school of thought where I only believe things when there is evidence to support them.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

On the subject of my proposed build's power strength...

Not negative strength, and there's still a variety of options to choose from. Again, questionable honesty.

130% PS is still incredibly low, as it brings the bow's damage at 312 per shot, still less than the Dread as a baseline. This is a weapon that costs Energy to use, by the way.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Even assuming what you've said about the base damage is true, you're highly underestimating the total damage. If you look up the augment on Youtube, most of the first results can show that. With my specific search, 'Concentrated Arrow Ivara', the first 5 results all did so.

I did before we even had this discussion, which is why I can comfortably say that the build sees no play in regular PvE, and is outperformed by the Lenz.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I hit 4 headshots in the first 10 seconds, and seeing as the point of that is to buff parkour velocity, my point there still stands. (I probably actually got more kills from headshots, but if an enemy dies to gas proc DOT, it doesn't count as one in the stats. That might've been fixed, but it was definitely a bug back then. That's not important to my point, but feel free to investigate.)

That's still an abysmal number and clear time for such a specific strat. Your playstyle is still highly inefficient in the end.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

And yes, I did specifically recommend Equinox. Almost every video I've uploaded is with a Oberon, so that's just what I happen to be able to show. Ignis doesn't seem like a bad choice. I don't have much to particularly say about it 

Other than it can kill multiple enemies simultaneously and doesn't require any major amount of aiming or highly specific builds to do its job. Hence why it, and other similar weapons, see more play than your build.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Also, people have generally said the exact opposite about my gameplay. I'm still a little unsure of how I compare to some of the better PC players in mechanical skill, but mine's definitely pretty high for a controller user, which quite a few forum users have agreed on. It was even the reason against most of the arguments I made then. I don't know if there's a way to see some of the older threads I've posted in, but if there is, you don't have to take my word for it.

Let me guess: they're friends on the Conclave Discord, right?

3 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

You're underestimating Ogris here, although it's hard to blame you for this one. There's a bit of glitch abuse, but here's an example of what it can do, and it's actually been buffed since, plus there's now Kuva Ogris, which I still need to get my hands on.

 

... that in itself is not particularly impressive, again with the Lenz easily outperforming your Riven-modded, bug-exploiting Ogris build. Why not test this against level 150+ enemies?

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5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't think we're disagreeing on the importance of potential, just the importance of practicality: you seem to be in favor of advocating unproven, invisible builds, whereas I'm of the much more old-fashioned school of thought where I only believe things when there is evidence to support them.

 

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

130% PS is still incredibly low, as it brings the bow's damage at 312 per shot, still less than the Dread as a baseline. This is a weapon that costs Energy to use, by the way.

 

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I did before we even had this discussion, which is why I can comfortably say that the build sees no play in regular PvE, and is outperformed by the Lenz.

I think more so the presence of practicality rather than the importance. I think the reason it isn't seen much is because people generally don't make an effort to gain that skill. I don't say this to criticize the average player either, because that is a lack of motivation to gain skill rather than a lack of ability to do so. They could probably do so if they wanted to.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That's still an abysmal number and clear time for such a specific strat. Your playstyle is still highly inefficient in the end.

I even have moderate doubt that this would be average or lower accuracy for PC. Even if so, this is definitely high accuracy for PS4.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Let me guess: they're friends on the Conclave Discord, right?

No. I actually managed to find an example. I was actually pretty surprised when I was reading this.

There's a video in there somewhere, which is actually my first Warframe video. You can judge the gameplay as harshly as you want. That would better show my point anyway. I didn't have a particularly special setup, having restricted ability use, and definitely a suboptimal build, considering my visible stats. Even then, my performance was described as something most players weren't able to do. This was a common theme of arguments I'd have, especially in regards to prerework Oberon, so I was eventually convinced that I was much more skillful than I previously thought. That was further evidenced by how I played in comparison to other players in my squad, especially with such a supposedly bad frame.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... that in itself is not particularly impressive, again with the Lenz easily outperforming your Riven-modded, bug-exploiting Ogris build. Why not test this against level 150+ enemies?

I'd actually rather test against lower level enemies. Level 100 armored heavies are roughly worst-case scenario for sorties and stuff. I know they can sometimes get a little higher than that, but that's a rare issue. Again, it has even become better since I recorded that clip too.

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On 2019-12-19 at 6:34 PM, Itsmez said:

No, that would require huge balancing between the frames and weapons and stuff which would end up killing the game, and the devs because of the work load.

Warframe is way too complicated to have PvP

Have you ever tried to play conclave? On one hand, PvE and PvP balance are handled differently so no amount of PvP balance is going to kill PvE; on the other hand, PvE's lack of balance is completely out of hand, so a balance pass that shifts the focus towards rewarding skillful gameplay over mindlessly mashing E and 1234 while holding W and Left Click with 2 aoe weapons equipped would be much appreciated to bring back some semblant of challenge to warframe.

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warframe pvp i like idea but conclave is bullS#&$ 🙂

soo yes it is possible , pvp in wf few examples

pvp smth like conclave but only with operators

and something like that pvp gamemodes but it will be never good with warframes and tier skills

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