Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[(PSN)mr_spaceman509]

Yea I think pvp can be successful I feel like if they  add some kind of railjack pvp i think that would be really cool and other game modes to ,DE just needs to give us rewards that you wouldn’t be able to get playing the pve like cosmetics or weapons that you can. Only get from pvp or mods but it shouldn’t be to much of a grind 

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is a false accusation, given that I pointed out your argument was insulting in addition to being wrong. You can claim not to think you've being disparaging, but given that disparagement is at the very heart of the argument you attempted to make, your feelings on the matter would not be relevant even if they were true.

Even if it's in addition to another point, what I said isn't less true.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That's a rather strange standard to set, given that your stance in this argument so far has been to concede nothing, even when literally proven wrong. The veracity of what is said in this debate does not hinge upon your subjective assessment, particularly when you are making a conspicuous effort to try to save face at the expense of the integrity of this discussion. This is demonstrated here, where your central point is that players are either incapable or unwilling to make an effort to play to some optimal standard of play, despite you failing to substantiate your point and ample evidence to the contrary.

I've already admitted to being wrong about a few things, so that's not true.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So, in effect, the very example you picked plays completely differently from PvE to Conclave. How exactly do you expect to convince anyone of the similarities then?

Given the similarities I've mentioned 'completely differently' is quite the exaggeration.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So, in effect, the very example you picked plays completely differently from PvE to Conclave. How exactly do you expect to convince anyone of the similarities then?

I still didn't open myself up to correction? Who decided that? If I'm actually wrong, can't you just show that I'm wrong? Also, as far as I can tell, impairs mainly replace staggers. They're inflicted by almost all melee weapons, plus I think just 3 abilities, Slash Dash, Landslide, and Paralysis.

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is a rather interesting bunch of nonsense, because I never stated the clarity of situation, nor did I make any arguments dependent upon it. My point is simply that, whatever the reason, it is clearly more difficult to translate stuff to Conclave than you are making it out to be. Asking for me to feign expertise in the game's coding or internal design just to produce some bogus explanation is therefore as irrelevant as it is misleading. I'd much rather accept ignorance on the matter than try to formulate some bogus "explanation" that fails to adequately explain anything, particularly when it leads to trivializing what is clearly a larger amount of work than you are assuming.

You said it was clearly more difficult.

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

in the end you are still trying to downplay the difficulty of a task that is clearly more difficult than you are attempting to frame it.

As I said before, I was just guessing. Either you know as little/much as I do, making your guess just as good as mine, or you know something which I don't, which is what would make my guess clearly wrong to you. With that said, you're either baselessly asserting your guess over mine, or you're just not sharing what more you know, for some reason.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You wouldn't be able to showcase your build at levels higher than that, but at least you would have tried at the highest level available to you, which is pointedly less arbitrary than just selecting the level range that makes your build look nicest.

I don't think it's arbitrary when I've made a build for a specific subset of missions, and I've chosen to test against enemies which would be present in those missions. If I was testing for endurance, that would be a sound argument, but I'm not. (Every time I've done endurance within the last year or so was with a sniper.)

I'm interested in seeing what you say about this. If the level limit of enemies you could spawn in the simulacrum was 9999, what level enemies would you test your builds against? If it's anything other than 9999, you probably agree with the type of reasoning I'm using, even if you disagree with the scale, which we can discuss after this.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

16% is still a massive portion of your ammo pool, and your ammo did not refill consistently. This is, again, in a best-case scenario where all of your enemies are clumped up and largely immobile. The fact that you refuse to pop into any Sortie just to show your build here is itself damning enough, as it is clear you yourself know your build doesn't hold up to practice unless you specifically force a highly specific, favorable situation.

You'll have to be patient for my sortie footage. Especially because of holiday season, I have limited gaming time, which I allocate to things other than a discussion with one random stranger. I don't need to explain my schedules and routines. Do I?

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The content creator themself mentions how easy it is to headshot with it. Your doubt here is itself dubious, and of questionable good faith.

At what part? I've definitely missed it if he did, and even so, he was against paused enemies. (Not to mention that easy on PC is different from easy on console.)

[Teridax68]

18 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Even if it's in addition to another point, what I said isn't less true.

... it isn't true, though. You can't even claim that it is, given your complete lack of even an attempt to substantiate what you said. 

18 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I've already admitted to being wrong about a few things, so that's not true.

... where?

18 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Given the similarities I've mentioned 'completely differently' is quite the exaggeration.

Which similarities? It's just been pointed out that your attempts at pointing to "similarities" were a massive reach.

18 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I still didn't open myself up to correction? Who decided that? If I'm actually wrong, can't you just show that I'm wrong? Also, as far as I can tell, impairs mainly replace staggers. They're inflicted by almost all melee weapons, plus I think just 3 abilities, Slash Dash, Landslide, and Paralysis.

I just did, and you still do not open yourself to correction, so it's not a matter of anyone deciding, so much as you proving me right. You're also completely wrong here, as the wiki lists at least 11 frames with the effect (not counting Vauban here because he isn't even available in Conclave). Given that this also does not include frames with other ability redesigns such as Nyx and Nekros, you are demonstrably underestimating the number of gameplay changes needed to translate warframes to Conclave.

18 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

You said it was clearly more difficult.

I did, as clearly evidenced by the fact that the transition is neither complete nor quick. Thus, without even having to take a look at the inner workings, I can confidently state that the translation process is not nearly as easy as you're pretending it is.

18 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

As I said before, I was just guessing. Either you know as little/much as I do, making your guess just as good as mine, or you know something which I don't, which is what would make my guess clearly wrong to you. With that said, you're either baselessly asserting your guess over mine, or you're just not sharing what more you know, for some reason.

I'm not baselessly asserting my guess over yours, though, because I am operating with what little information we have available, whereas you are operating against it. That is, in fact, the point here.

18 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I don't think it's arbitrary when I've made a build for a specific subset of missions, and I've chosen to test against enemies which would be present in those missions. If I was testing for endurance, that would be a sound argument, but I'm not. (Every time I've done endurance within the last year or so was with a sniper.)

That is the very definition of arbitrary given that you haven't justified the specificity of those missions, and clearly have only built for a subset of the enemies therein. The point I am making here is that showing it at some high level serves as an all-purpose showcase against others doing the same.

18 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I'm interested in seeing what you say about this. If the level limit of enemies you could spawn in the simulacrum was 9999, what level enemies would you test your builds against? If it's anything other than 9999, you probably agree with the type of reasoning I'm using, even if you disagree with the scale, which we can discuss after this.

Why not 9999, then? Again, the time to kill, however long, would still indicate how your weapon would scale, better even than now, and given that scaling is an essential component to higher-end difficulty, it is certainly a lot less arbitrary than picking some lower, fixed level and hoping for the best.

18 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

You'll have to be patient for my sortie footage. Especially because of holiday season, I have limited gaming time, which I allocate to things other than a discussion with one random stranger. I don't need to explain my schedules and routines. Do I?

I'd buy this excuse if you hadn't recorded footage for the specific purpose of this argument two days ago, and hadn't taken the time to give out this response ten hours ago. Do you not do Sorties at all during the holidays? Because that little is what is being asked, and trust me, even the busiest person on a family holiday can find a half-hour for themselves if they truly want.

18 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

At what part? I've definitely missed it if he did, and even so, he was against paused enemies. (Not to mention that easy on PC is different from easy on console.)

They mention Pax Seeker and how good it is on it at 1:45 and 4:10, and the weapon is known for having no bonus headshot damage due to how easily it triggers headshots (which itself doesn't affect headshot-based bonuses like Pax Seeker). Really, just using the weapon should be an indicator of this, even on console.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

... it isn't true, though. You can't even claim that it is, given your complete lack of even an attempt to substantiate what you said. 

 

Which part isn't true? You did confirm that you were telling me that what I was saying was insulting.

After this, I said that you seem to be saying that to point it out as a flaw in my argument. (Not necessarily the only flaw.) My guess is that you took that if I said it more certainty, rather than just being a suspicion. For a statement like what I actually said to be false though, I'd have to not believe it myself, since I'm saying how something seems to be, rather than simply how it is.

Being relevant to your point could've potentially been the false part, but then I'd winder why you're taking about this so much in the first place.

Being a personal issue to me is just like the second part, but much simpler.

Then me saying that the chances of you being right are high enough to take seriously could be false, if you argument is that weak. I'd be confused to find out that you think that.

Just to confirm, do you really believe that I'm being intentionally insulting towards most of the PvE community, and am now trying to hide that?

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

... where?

I overlooked the enemy EHP differences in the weapons comparisons. Also, I preemptively admitted to a high chance at being wrong about the ability changes.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

... where?

The same ones I mentioned. You should really explain your reasoning, rather than basically just saying that you disagree.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

I just did, and you still do not open yourself to correction, so it's not a matter of anyone deciding, so much as you proving me right. You're also completely wrong here, as the wiki lists at least 11 frames with the effect (not counting Vauban here because he isn't even available in Conclave). Given that this also does not include frames with other ability redesigns such as Nyx and Nekros, you are demonstrably underestimating the number of gameplay changes needed to translate warframes to Conclave.

I wasn't sure about the amount of the abilities that impair, hence the 'I think'. The Wiki is somewhat wrong about that, but I did indeed miss 2 to 4. Abilties like Nidus' Larva are actually a different effect, which is shown by the effect name/symbol. Seeing as I main the frame with immunity to impairs, this is an important distinction for me, since that's the difference between being affected or not. I missed Pull, Switch Teleport (which works inconsistently), and maybe Shattered Lash and Devour. (Those 2 just aren't used often.)

I did account for this with my previous count though. I don't remember the specific frames I put in each category, but feel free to make a list to correct that.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I did, as clearly evidenced by the fact that the transition is neither complete nor quick. Thus, without even having to take a look at the inner workings, I can confidently state that the translation process is not nearly as easy as you're pretending it is.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm not baselessly asserting my guess over yours, though, because I am operating with what little information we have available, whereas you are operating against it. That is, in fact, the point here.

The part about it not being complete is a but confusing. Considering how often changes and additions are made to the game, I'd be surprised if that was ever complete. The time changes make isn't a consistent indication. Conclave has had a fair share of quick changes. Stuff like frames being implemented with wrong EHP values, major bug fixes, and such were like that, from what I've heard. I don't personally experience that most of the time, since console is relatively slow to update, and less of these bugs actually make it to console. I'm sure a PC conclaver could tell you more about that.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That is the very definition of arbitrary given that you haven't justified the specificity of those missions, and clearly have only built for a subset of the enemies therein. The point I am making here is that showing it at some high level serves as an all-purpose showcase against others doing the same.

I want to do sorties efficiently. Is that not enough justification? I'm sure you can understand why anyone would want to do sorties efficiently.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Why not 9999, then? Again, the time to kill, however long, would still indicate how your weapon would scale, better even than now, and given that scaling is an essential component to higher-end difficulty, it is certainly a lot less arbitrary than picking some lower, fixed level and hoping for the best.

That's interesting. Can we agree that (ignoring melee for now) snipers or weapons with infinite ammo would be the best at that level? If so, would you also consider them to be ideal for specific content that's level 100 or lower, like sorties?

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'd buy this excuse if you hadn't recorded footage for the specific purpose of this argument two days ago, and hadn't taken the time to give out this response ten hours ago. Do you not do Sorties at all during the holidays? Because that little is what is being asked, and trust me, even the busiest person on a family holiday can find a half-hour for themselves if they truly want.

Because my free time varies between specific days. I didn't have time yesterday, today's sortie would've been a poor example, you can probably guess that I have better things to do on Christmas, and so on. Also, it's only partly about being able to. I could always, for example, stay awake for that extra amount of time if I really wanted to, but we can probably both agree that forum conversation is not something worth literally losing sleep over. On top of that, I have other gaming-related things to keep up with, like minimum activity levels for multiple communities, plus free time stuff that's completely unrelated to gaming, like drawing. Also, being on an IPad, my typing can be done portably, which my gaming can't. I hope I don't have to explain more.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

They mention Pax Seeker and how good it is on it at 1:45 and 4:10, and the weapon is known for having no bonus headshot damage due to how easily it triggers headshots (which itself doesn't affect headshot-based bonuses like Pax Seeker). Really, just using the weapon should be an indicator of this, even on console.

"Pax Seeker, still pretty stupid," and "Everything's fine if you get those Pax Seeker going out, if you can actually get the headshot kills." There might be implied ease with the former comment, but the latter one seems to imply a degree of difficulty. If he's saying that it's easy to headshot with, he's definitely doing so in a way that's easily missed. Also, as I said, I'm careful not to judge headshots ease off my own usage. People even quite often disagree with weapons I think are the easiest to headshot with.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Why not 9999, then? Again, the time to kill, however long, would still indicate how your weapon would scale, better even than now, and given that scaling is an essential component to higher-end difficulty, it is certainly a lot less arbitrary than picking some lower, fixed level and hoping for the best.

Did they ever change CL?

[Teridax68]

3 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Did they ever change CL?

Yes.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Which part isn't true? You did confirm that you were telling me that what I was saying was insulting.

That players don't make an effort to improve. It is the very point I also pointed out was insulting.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

After this, I said that you seem to be saying that to point it out as a flaw in my argument. (Not necessarily the only flaw.) My guess is that you took that if I said it more certainty, rather than just being a suspicion.

If that was truly your point, then what you stated has no value at all even as a true statement. Of course it is a problem if your argument is insulting, even if that does not affect its truth value. It just so happens that your point is false and insulting, which is a particularly terrible combination.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

For a statement like what I actually said to be false though, I'd have to not believe it myself, since I'm saying how something seems to be, rather than simply how it is.

So apparently objective reality is now dependent entirely on your personal judgement. Got it.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Being relevant to your point could've potentially been the false part, but then I'd winder why you're taking about this so much in the first place.

Because this is a point where you happen to be conspicuously defensive, and have chosen to argue at length as well against all evidence. So if you wonder why we're talking about this so much, even as you acknowledge the irrelevance of your arguments... you tell me.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Being a personal issue to me is just like the second part, but much simpler.

How is this relevant?

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Then me saying that the chances of you being right are high enough to take seriously could be false, if you argument is that weak. I'd be confused to find out that you think that.

If you truly thought my point was worth taking seriously, you wouldn't be deploying such efforts to try to undermine or debate it any further. Really, it seems the case is closed here.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Just to confirm, do you really believe that I'm being intentionally insulting towards most of the PvE community, and am now trying to hide that?

I don't know or care if you were deliberately trying to be insulting, but the fact is that you did. At the end of it, you either deliberately tried to put down PvE players to the attempted benefit of Conclave players, then backtracked, or have the mentality so deeply ingrained that you didn't even catch yourself when making such a condescending argument. I'm not sure which is worse.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I overlooked the enemy EHP differences in the weapons comparisons. Also, I preemptively admitted to a high chance at being wrong about the ability changes.

But still went on with both arguments, without caring at all that you were basing yourself on faulty math and analysis. Acknowledging being wrong typically means actually acknowledging the corrections needed to be made to your beliefs or arguments, neither of which you have done.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

The same ones I mentioned. You should really explain your reasoning, rather than basically just saying that you disagree.

But I did, and there is very little explaining to do when you yourself utterly failed to justify any of the supposed links you threw into the air when trying to tie Arena to Conclave. As said already, the combat is fundamentally different, as is the parkour that takes place, the balance, the design of the frames, and the general strategies available. The only similarity is the maps.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I wasn't sure about the amount of the abilities that impair, hence the 'I think'. The Wiki is somewhat wrong about that, but I did indeed miss 2 to 4. Abilties like Nidus' Larva are actually a different effect, which is shown by the effect name/symbol.

Operating on some vague notion is not good enough when you could have easily done your research, and the fact that I had to do it for you shows just how much you care about the truth in this argument. Also, the effect is different on Nidus... how?

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Seeing as I main the frame with immunity to impairs, this is an important distinction for me, since that's the difference between being affected or not. I missed Pull, Switch Teleport (which works inconsistently), and maybe Shattered Lash and Devour. (Those 2 just aren't used often.)

That's very nice, but as it stands you're being factually contradicted by a reliable source. What you're telling me just seems to indicate that the implementation of the anti-Impair mechanic isn't even consistent.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I did account for this with my previous count though. I don't remember the specific frames I put in each category, but feel free to make a list to correct that.

I literally just proved you mathematically wrong in the response you are quoting, though. You thus could not have possibly accounted for those frames even if you had tried, as the number of frames with different designs relative to their PvE versions is demonstrably more than 12.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

The part about it not being complete is a but confusing. Considering how often changes and additions are made to the game, I'd be surprised if that was ever complete. The time changes make isn't a consistent indication. Conclave has had a fair share of quick changes. Stuff like frames being implemented with wrong EHP values, major bug fixes, and such were like that, from what I've heard. I don't personally experience that most of the time, since console is relatively slow to update, and less of these bugs actually make it to console. I'm sure a PC conclaver could tell you more about that.

That is irrelevant to the fact that many weapons and even frames aren't in Conclave, and don't seem ready to be inserted via "quick changes". Moreover, when weapons and frames are added, that typically creates such serious problems that some Conclave players advocate to shut the mode off from further content, as happened with the inclusion of the Ignis (which was years after its PvE release).

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I want to do sorties efficiently. Is that not enough justification? I'm sure you can understand why anyone would want to do sorties efficiently.

If you want to do Sorties efficiently... pick literally any weapon? Even a MK-1 Braton will perform just fine in the majority of Sorties with the right mod setup and amount of Forma, so setting the bar there says very little about your particular build. Of course, some weapons will likely perform better than others, it just so happens that the Ogris ain't among them, not even with your build.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

That's interesting. Can we agree that (ignoring melee for now) snipers or weapons with infinite ammo would be the best at that level? If so, would you also consider them to be ideal for specific content that's level 100 or lower, like sorties?

Why would those weapons be optimal, again?

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Because my free time varies between specific days. I didn't have time yesterday, today's sortie would've been a poor example, you can probably guess that I have better things to do on Christmas, and so on. Also, it's only partly about being able to. I could always, for example, stay awake for that extra amount of time if I really wanted to, but we can probably both agree that forum conversation is not something worth literally losing sleep over. On top of that, I have other gaming-related things to keep up with, like minimum activity levels for multiple communities, plus free time stuff that's completely unrelated to gaming, like drawing. Also, being on an IPad, my typing can be done portably, which my gaming can't. I hope I don't have to explain more.

That's nice, but at the end of the day, you still took up a fair amount of time typing all this up, so something's not quite adding up.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

"Pax Seeker, still pretty stupid," and "Everything's fine if you get those Pax Seeker going out, if you can actually get the headshot kills." There might be implied ease with the former comment, but the latter one seems to imply a degree of difficulty.

... it doesn't? The guy repeats the word "actually" with exceptional frequency, and there was a full stop between "Everything's fine" and the rest. You are deliberately distorting the meaning of what the person said, all to attempt to detract from the obvious fact that the Catchmoon is an easy weapon for getting headshots.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

If he's saying that it's easy to headshot with, he's definitely doing so in a way that's easily missed.

Or, rather, easy to misquote and distort, as shown by your example. As it stands, the content creator very clearly showed it was easy to get Pax Seeker procs with it.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Also, as I said, I'm careful not to judge headshots ease off my own usage. People even quite often disagree with weapons I think are the easiest to headshot with.

Good, then this is a sterling opportunity to look beyond your personal judgment and see the facts. In this particular case, the Catchmoon is notoriously easy to headshot with, hence why Pax Seeker works so well with it. Take the time as well to note the irony of how you are now trying to slag off this build on the basis of it supposedly being too difficult to use despite being optimal, when the very notion of higher rewards for greater skill was your entry point for bragging about your homebrew builds.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

On 2019-12-20 at 10:48 PM, Renginus said:

warframe pvp i like idea but conclave is bullS#&$ 🙂

soo yes it is possible , pvp in wf few examples

pvp smth like conclave but only with operators

and something like that pvp gamemodes but it will be never good with warframes and tier skills

Out of curiosity, what are your issues with the current iteration of conclave?

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That players don't make an effort to improve. It is the very point I also pointed out was insulting.

In that case, I misunderstood what you were saying, do the explanations that I put with what you were replying to can be ignored. I wonder how this disagreement can be figured out.

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But still went on with both arguments, without caring at all that you were basing yourself on faulty math and analysis. Acknowledging being wrong typically means actually acknowledging the corrections needed to be made to your beliefs or arguments, neither of which you have done.

I did make corrections though, like how I later uploaded video of my Ogris against the same enemies as in the Catchmoon video.

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But I did, and there is very little explaining to do when you yourself utterly failed to justify any of the supposed links you threw into the air when trying to tie Arena to Conclave. As said already, the combat is fundamentally different, as is the parkour that takes place, the balance, the design of the frames, and the general strategies available. The only similarity is the maps.

For now, this is more about keeping your argument cohesive. I still don't know if I quite understand what your issue is with what I said there.

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Operating on some vague notion is not good enough when you could have easily done your research, and the fact that I had to do it for you shows just how much you care about the truth in this argument. Also, the effect is different on Nidus... how?

Going purely off memory there definitely was a mistake, although the only reliable confirmation that I know are commands on the conclave Discord server, which would be highly tedious to use. As you'll be able to see, the wiki is wrong.

 

If you go to 7:45, you can see that the debuff from Larva isn't impair, but simply Larva. It think it has the exact same effect as an impair, (while ones like Ivara's definitely a little different,) but since it's nit an impair, my Oberon has no immunity to it. This isn't an inconsistency in impair immunity. It's just a (rather annoying) distinction between similar effects.

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I literally just proved you mathematically wrong in the response you are quoting, though. You thus could not have possibly accounted for those frames even if you had tried, as the number of frames with different designs relative to their PvE versions is demonstrably more than 12.

While the wiki is reliable, you can see that it's wrong sometimes, and this is one of those cases.

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That is irrelevant to the fact that many weapons and even frames aren't in Conclave, and don't seem ready to be inserted via "quick changes". Moreover, when weapons and frames are added, that typically creates such serious problems that some Conclave players advocate to shut the mode off from further content, as happened with the inclusion of the Ignis (which was years after its PvE release).

I'm still a bit confused, because that doesn't explain much for me, but I already explained what was inconsistent about the times it would take for changes to be made.

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If you want to do Sorties efficiently... pick literally any weapon? Even a MK-1 Braton will perform just fine in the majority of Sorties with the right mod setup and amount of Forma, so setting the bar there says very little about your particular build. Of course, some weapons will likely perform better than others, it just so happens that the Ogris ain't among them, not even with your build.

Well I've shown some evidence for Ogris being a relatively efficient weapon at that level. It's not quite proof at this point, but that'll still have to wait.

17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Why would those weapons be optimal, again?

DPS and ammo economy, respectively. Whichever is more important to you.

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That's nice, but at the end of the day, you still took up a fair amount of time typing all this up, so something's not quite adding up.

I can type in places where I'm not able to play.

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That's nice, but at the end of the day, you still took up a fair amount of time typing all this up, so something's not quite adding up.

It's not a deliberate distortion, but my point was that he doesn't say that it's easy, (at least in an easily understandable way,) even at the times stamps you mentioned. Also...

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Good, then this is a sterling opportunity to look beyond your personal judgment and see the facts. In this particular case, the Catchmoon is notoriously easy to headshot with, hence why Pax Seeker works so well with it. Take the time as well to note the irony of how you are now trying to slag off this build on the basis of it supposedly being too difficult to use despite being optimal, when the very notion of higher rewards for greater skill was your entry point for bragging about your homebrew builds.

You can see that I'm being careful with my judgement here, being based on what I think would be an unfair assessment. I'm not saying that it's easy nor hard, because I don't have a good basis for that. I'll try to find a video that I can use to expand on this, later.

[Teridax68]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

In that case, I misunderstood what you were saying, do the explanations that I put with what you were replying to can be ignored. I wonder how this disagreement can be figured out.

It's not that complicated; if you somehow have convincing evidence that players collectively refuse to use builds that are specifically more efficient, if more difficult than the current meta, then your point is made. Otherwise, it is not.

Quote

I did make corrections though, like how I later uploaded video of my Ogris against the same enemies as in the Catchmoon video.

That's not a correction, that was you specifically resorting to build even more hyper-tailored to the situation through the use of Nightwatch Napalm over Firestorm. You did not correct anything, so much as purely try to manipulate your presentation even further for the sake of this argument.

Quote

For now, this is more about keeping your argument cohesive. I still don't know if I quite understand what your issue is with what I said there.

If you are not even sure whether or not you understand, it is perhaps not my argument here that lacks in cohesion, particularly as I've made a point that is both simple and clear. Arena and Conclave are visibly different, and you have failed to point out any real similarities, with the only specifics you mentioned having been disproven.

Quote

Going purely off memory there definitely was a mistake, although the only reliable confirmation that I know are commands on the conclave Discord server, which would be highly tedious to use. As you'll be able to see, the wiki is wrong.

 

If you go to 7:45, you can see that the debuff from Larva isn't impair, but simply Larva. It think it has the exact same effect as an impair, (while ones like Ivara's definitely a little different,) but since it's nit an impair, my Oberon has no immunity to it. This isn't an inconsistency in impair immunity. It's just a (rather annoying) distinction between similar effects.

So all you are telling me here is effectively that Conclave's ability design is not even consistent, with a clear example of an Impair debuff that isn't recognized as an Impair for icon/immunity purposes. It is still clearly an Impair, and thus also completely different effect from its PvE counterpart, so not only is your nitpicking here pointless, it is also entirely irrelevant to the point that Conclave and PvE design follows fundamentally different rules, as you yourself have just shown.

Quote

While the wiki is reliable, you can see that it's wrong sometimes, and this is one of those cases.

It isn't, though, as its only mistake with regards to Nidus is in mentioning that the Impair on his Larva is represented as a separate debuff, despite having visibly the same effect. The fact still remains that the ability is entirely different from its PvE version, and thus the wiki proves you mathematically wrong all the same.

Quote

I'm still a bit confused, because that doesn't explain much for me, but I already explained what was inconsistent about the times it would take for changes to be made.

What exactly did you explain, and why would such a point confuse you? Stuff visibly takes a lot of time to be ported to Conclave, far more than you tried to make it out to be, ergo the process is by definition more time-consuming than you assumed. It really is that simple.

Quote

Well I've shown some evidence for Ogris being a relatively efficient weapon at that level. It's not quite proof at this point, but that'll still have to wait.

"Relatively efficient" is a far cry from "optimal", which is what you tried to make it out to be, and as pointed out several times already, your "evidence" is critically flawed, and visibly disconnected from any actual in-game context. I suspect the only reason we are waiting on proof is because showcasing your build in an actual level 100 mission would instantly demonstrate how inefficient it is.

Quote

DPS and ammo economy, respectively. Whichever is more important to you.

... but again, why? Snipers don't have top-tier DPS nor exceptional ammo economy.

Quote

I can type in places where I'm not able to play.

But were still able to play only a few days ago, as shown by the video you uploaded. As it stands, you continue to furnish no practical evidence in support of your build, even as you continue to believe to argue its merits without.

Quote

It's not a deliberate distortion, but my point was that he doesn't say that it's easy, (at least in an easily understandable way,) even at the times stamps you mentioned. Also...

They clearly mention that it's exceptionally good, and you can see the projectile hitbox in the video. You are indeed deliberately trying to distort the content creator's unambiguous message based entirely on your interpretation of their wording, which ultimately fails to answer the larger body of evidence in support of just how powerful the Catchmoon is (as shown in the video), and how even stronger it becomes with Pax Seeker due to its synergy. As stated already above, kitguns are notoriously among the most powerful weapons in the game, and clearly outpace your personal builds, even as you deploy every possible effort to make them look better than they are in actuality.

Quote

You can see that I'm being careful with my judgement here, being based on what I think would be an unfair assessment. I'm not saying that it's easy nor hard, because I don't have a good basis for that. I'll try to find a video that I can use to expand on this, later.

Sure, but you "being careful" here is in stark contrast with the numerous leaps of logic, unresearched claims, and other pointedly subjective judgments you've made throughout this thread. There is a visible double standard between the scrutiny under which you put my arguments, even in the face of clear evidence, and the complete lack of such you apply to your own. More broadly, your recent approach has been to increasingly argue from personal disbelief or feigned lack of understanding, rather than any concrete counter-argument, a poor tactic given that your subjective appreciation of the subject matter was never held as fact to begin with.

As it stands, you have once again failed to establish any substantial point in defense of PvP in Warframe: it has been shown extensively now that its design and gameplay are fundamentally different from PvE, that porting content to Conclave is both time-consuming and not even always well-received by the community, all for little to no apparent payoff, and that PvP in Warframe has nothing to teach PvE, whether it's theorycrafting or more effective gameplay. Your response to this so far has been to throw a whole bunch of red herrings at the debate (e.g. whether the Impair on Nidus's PvP Larva is a "real" Impair with regards to Oberon's own Conclave-exclusive passive), and pretend you don't understand what is being said to you. You are free to prove me wrong, but I think this debate on PvP in Warframe has been concluded for quite some time now.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

On 2019-12-26 at 11:02 AM, Teridax68 said:

It's not that complicated; if you somehow have convincing evidence that players collectively refuse to use builds that are specifically more efficient, if more difficult than the current meta, then your point is made. Otherwise, it is not.

If I can get people to cooperate with me for that.

On 2019-12-26 at 11:02 AM, Teridax68 said:

That's not a correction, that was you specifically resorting to build even more hyper-tailored to the situation through the use of Nightwatch Napalm over Firestorm. You did not correct anything, so much as purely try to manipulate your presentation even further for the sake of this argument.

I took the opportunity to also show how it got stronger since I made the old video, rather than knowingly using something suboptimal. You specifically mentioned how the comparison was between Ogris against normal heavy gunners, and Catchmoon against corrupted heavy gunners, meaning that Ogris was dealing with lower EHP. You should be able to see how that was the reason why I made the video, at least partly.

On 2019-12-26 at 11:02 AM, Teridax68 said:

That's not a correction, that was you specifically resorting to build even more hyper-tailored to the situation through the use of Nightwatch Napalm over Firestorm. You did not correct anything, so much as purely try to manipulate your presentation even further for the sake of this argument.

All you seem to have said is that they're not similar, with little to no reason supporting that.

On 2019-12-26 at 11:02 AM, Teridax68 said:

So all you are telling me here is effectively that Conclave's ability design is not even consistent, with a clear example of an Impair debuff that isn't recognized as an Impair for icon/immunity purposes. It is still clearly an Impair, and thus also completely different effect from its PvE counterpart, so not only is your nitpicking here pointless, it is also entirely irrelevant to the point that Conclave and PvE design follows fundamentally different rules, as you yourself have just shown.

Maybe. As I said, some of the debuffs also have distinct effects. I'm not sure if Larva's is one of them or not. If I had to guess, the most likely difference would be having more ways to remove the debuff, but I haven't experimented much with that.  Also, I almost definitely included Nidus in my previous count, and even if I did, he's still just 1 frame, where I noted that I might need some correction.

On 2019-12-26 at 11:02 AM, Teridax68 said:

What exactly did you explain, and why would such a point confuse you? Stuff visibly takes a lot of time to be ported to Conclave, far more than you tried to make it out to be, ergo the process is by definition more time-consuming than you assumed. It really is that simple.

A lot of things have been quick, and the times it takes for changes to be made varies pretty drastically. That doesn't really say much other than X sorts of changes can be as quick as Y amount of time, but usually take Z amount of time, for some reason.

On 2019-12-26 at 11:02 AM, Teridax68 said:

"Relatively efficient" is a far cry from "optimal", which is what you tried to make it out to be, and as pointed out several times already, your "evidence" is critically flawed, and visibly disconnected from any actual in-game context. I suspect the only reason we are waiting on proof is because showcasing your build in an actual level 100 mission would instantly demonstrate how inefficient it is.

Optimal requires quite a lot of evidence. People tend to have pretty varying views of what optimal is, but it's easy to see what competes well against the other contenders. As confident as I am with Ogris' performance, I more so approach showing optimality by comparing against what other people present. I can show it in a level 100 mission against armored enemies before I stop being active in this thread. It doesn't make for a good point of comparison, unless it's to something being showcased in the same mission, but I still need to show an example of how it works in that sort of environment.

On 2019-12-26 at 11:02 AM, Teridax68 said:

... but again, why? Snipers don't have top-tier DPS nor exceptional ammo economy.

 

On 2019-12-26 at 11:02 AM, Teridax68 said:

But were still able to play only a few days ago, as shown by the video you uploaded. As it stands, you continue to furnish no practical evidence in support of your build, even as you continue to believe to argue its merits without.

Again, I have different things to do on different days. Please let me prioritize those things, else I just won't want to continue with this at all.

On 2019-12-26 at 11:02 AM, Teridax68 said:

They clearly mention that it's exceptionally good, and you can see the projectile hitbox in the video. You are indeed deliberately trying to distort the content creator's unambiguous message based entirely on your interpretation of their wording, which ultimately fails to answer the larger body of evidence in support of just how powerful the Catchmoon is (as shown in the video), and how even stronger it becomes with Pax Seeker due to its synergy. As stated already above, kitguns are notoriously among the most powerful weapons in the game, and clearly outpace your personal builds, even as you deploy every possible effort to make them look better than they are in actuality.

It being a good weapon is different from being easy to hit headshots, which is what I was talking about. Also, no, my Ogris definitely outdoes it in the examples shown. If Catchmoon really is better, that'll have to be shown in some other test.

On 2019-12-26 at 11:02 AM, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but you "being careful" here is in stark contrast with the numerous leaps of logic, unresearched claims, and other pointedly subjective judgments you've made throughout this thread. There is a visible double standard between the scrutiny under which you put my arguments, even in the face of clear evidence, and the complete lack of such you apply to your own. More broadly, your recent approach has been to increasingly argue from personal disbelief or feigned lack of understanding, rather than any concrete counter-argument, a poor tactic given that your subjective appreciation of the subject matter was never held as fact to begin with.

As it stands, you have once again failed to establish any substantial point in defense of PvP in Warframe: it has been shown extensively now that its design and gameplay are fundamentally different from PvE, that porting content to Conclave is both time-consuming and not even always well-received by the community, all for little to no apparent payoff, and that PvP in Warframe has nothing to teach PvE, whether it's theorycrafting or more effective gameplay. Your response to this so far has been to throw a whole bunch of red herrings at the debate (e.g. whether the Impair on Nidus's PvP Larva is a "real" Impair with regards to Oberon's own Conclave-exclusive passive), and pretend you don't understand what is being said to you. You are free to prove me wrong, but I think this debate on PvP in Warframe has been concluded for quite some time now.

Believe it or not, my lack of understanding isn't feigned. I don't how I could convince you otherwise, but you could try to explain better, in order for that to either be a more strongly evidenced belief or to allow me to understand better.

I did forget to find that video example that I mentioned, although I did link Summit's Vectis Prime video, so I just need to get some examples to supplement that.

https://youtu.be/g860R7WBxZc

15:50 https://youtu.be/IrNAgxgzQs0

Besides mine and Summit's I didn't find many examples of Vectis Prime being used in an endurance mission on console. This is to make a point about accuracy assessment, so damage numbers and stuff can be ignored. You can see that there are clear differences in accuracy, which you're free to compare to other PS4 players. The average is much closer Vinoraptor's. So while the sort of performance that Summit and I get would definitely be easy to us, considering it easy overall ignores the time/effort it takes to be able to make it easy. (That unfortunately took me a long time with a lot of people to understand.) It may look easy to a PC player, (and based on what I've seen, it definitely seems to be, since my snapping isn't that special in comparison to my tracking,) but I do have to be mindful of the fact that a lot of other people on console can't do this.

I don't think I have gameplay of myself using Catchmoon, but from the Vectis Prime videos, you can see why I'd be careful about judging ease purely from my own perspective.

 

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

On 2019-12-26 at 10:02 AM, Teridax68 said:

As it stands, you have once again failed to establish any substantial point in defense of PvP in Warframe: it has been shown extensively now that its design and gameplay are fundamentally different from PvE, that porting content to Conclave is both time-consuming and not even always well-received by the community, all for little to no apparent payoff, and that PvP in Warframe has nothing to teach PvE, whether it's theorycrafting or more effective gameplay.

How is the design fundamentally different than PvE? It uses the same assets and the same maps. All of the rathuum and index maps are conclave maps.  Warframes don't magically change appearance just because they enter conclave. Perhaps you are ignorant of what conclave even is? I can see how this is possible.

Conclave doesn't have to help PvE, it can stand alone. All that was originally claimed several pages ago was that some mechanical skills gained through extensive and intensive use in conclave often carry over into the PvE side of the game. It's essentially the same claim as learning to swim in a lake also teaches you how to swim in a pond. Looking back on this thread, I think you have strawmanned this into some sort of quasi-theoretical discussion on ease of using certain strategies and gear in conclave, which wasn't what the original statement was even about.

[Thando]

Hopefully not.

Where ever PvP flourish, it brings destruction to PvE. 

[(PSN)calvin_0]

I certainly hope not, I seen too many PvE game got destroyed over PvP "balance"... so I hope DE never "fixes" PvP because the moment they try to do that, would mark the death of Warframe since this is mostly a PvE game.. 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

I'd still love to see PvP with adult tenno. Less parkour skill and speed than warframes and only exilus mods on firearms. As it stands though, both the conclave and Lunaro only needs live and rewarding competitions, something that re-sparks interest.

[Teridax68]

10 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

How is the design fundamentally different than PvE? It uses the same assets and the same maps. All of the rathuum and index maps are conclave maps.  Warframes don't magically change appearance just because they enter conclave. Perhaps you are ignorant of what conclave even is? I can see how this is possible.

I'm sorry, two modes with entirely different gameplay are the same because they share the same assets? What kind of galaxy-brained argument is this?

Quote

Conclave doesn't have to help PvE, it can stand alone. All that was originally claimed several pages ago was that some mechanical skills gained through extensive and intensive use in conclave often carry over into the PvE side of the game. It's essentially the same claim as learning to swim in a lake also teaches you how to swim in a pond. Looking back on this thread, I think you have strawmanned this into some sort of quasi-theoretical discussion on ease of using certain strategies and gear in conclave, which wasn't what the original statement was even about.

I was not the one who carried the topic into specific builds, as I merely contested the unsupported claim that the learning curve in Conclave contributed to greater skill in PvE, which the last few pages have proven in my favor. I entirely agree with the statement that Conclave can stand alone from PvE... because it's essentially a separate game, one about as important to Warframe proper as Frame Fighter or Wyrmius (which use the same assets, so they're totally the same game, right?). To some extent, it might even benefit Conclave if it were detached from Warframe and turned into its own fully-fledged game, because then there would be no excuse to ignore it, but in its current state it's one of Warframe's many vestigial appendages of content virtually no-one wants to play, which can only be left to rot because the resource cost to make it better is not justified by its player count. As such, I think whether one loves or hates Conclave, there is merit in advocating to remove it from Warframe, whether to reimplement it as a proper game of its own, or just get rid of it.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

If I can get people to cooperate with me for that.

So, effectively, you do not in fact have evidence at hand, nor did you make your statement based on evidence, yet are planning to engineer some in order to retroactively give your statement some veneer of credibility. Thank you for just admitting to the baselessness of your claim.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I took the opportunity to also show how it got stronger since I made the old video, rather than knowingly using something suboptimal. You specifically mentioned how the comparison was between Ogris against normal heavy gunners, and Catchmoon against corrupted heavy gunners, meaning that Ogris was dealing with lower EHP. You should be able to see how that was the reason why I made the video, at least partly.

But that's not it either, because you also took the opportunity to swap out Firestorm for Nightwatch Napalm in order to better exploit the specific setup of the Simulacrum for your build, at the further expense of applicability outside of it. You are thus conspicuously not telling the whole truth here.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

All you seem to have said is that they're not similar, with little to no reason supporting that.

Let's take a look at what I've actually said on the matter:

On 2019-12-23 at 12:44 AM, Teridax68 said:

So, by your own admission, the "closest things to conclave in Warframe" have scant to do with Conclave, and only vaguely relate in terms of... rewards? What?

This was in response to you yourself admitting there was little similarity between Conclave and Arena:

On 2019-12-22 at 4:13 PM, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

They're the closest things to conclave in Warframe. I wish there were better points of comparison, but there aren't.

Furthermore:

On 2019-12-23 at 2:44 PM, Teridax68 said:

But how are they in any way similar? The enemies are nothing like Tenno, nor do they parkour or encourage parkour or aiming in the same manner. The balance and design is entirely PvE, which is why you have special comps like Larva Nidus for Rathuum or Fatal Teleport Ash for Index. You are quite simply making stuff up here.

This is me merely stating the obvious, while also pointing out that it is you, not me, who have failed to justify your own point on the matter.

On 2019-12-23 at 6:58 PM, Teridax68 said:

So, in effect, the very example you picked plays completely differently from PvE to Conclave. How exactly do you expect to convince anyone of the similarities then?

This is me once again pointing out that your attempt at pointing out similarities only further highlighted key differences between the two modes:

On 2019-12-23 at 5:47 PM, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I partly mentioned those differences already. Not as specifically, but you could probably guess that, for example. there are more potent setups as a result of increased gear choices. Partly because of that, abilities are less potent in conclave. The similarities are everything else though, which can be showed with many abilities. For example, with Teleport, they're generally used to close in on enemies for a melee attack. In arena, it's a finisher, which people usually augment to perform automatically, while in conclave you use a normal melee attack, which in conclave is probably preferable, although it takes more skill. You also get much more targeting freedom in conclave, not being limited to teleporting to a enemies, allies, ect., which means you generally need to be more mindful if where you aim, but you can do more with it.

Subsequently:

On 2019-12-25 at 9:48 PM, Teridax68 said:

But I did, and there is very little explaining to do when you yourself utterly failed to justify any of the supposed links you threw into the air when trying to tie Arena to Conclave. As said already, the combat is fundamentally different, as is the parkour that takes place, the balance, the design of the frames, and the general strategies available. The only similarity is the maps.

This is once again me having to restate the obvious, with it already having been well-established on this thread that the combat and parkour are fundamentally different between all of PvE, including Arena, and Conclave. This is also me once again pointing out your utter lack of justification of your own claim.

So as can be clearly seen, I have in fact stated very clear reasons for why Conclave and Arena fundamentally differ from each other, reasons that have already been substantiated by prior conversations here on parkour, gunplay, etc., upon which your own arguments hinge as well. You have also visibly read these arguments and responded to them, so you are flat-out lying here in accusing me of giving "little to no reason" behind my point here. Moreover, as the exchange clearly shows, it is you here who have failed to justify your point, not me: you have not cited a single commonality between the two modes outside of the maps, and whenever you tried to draw comparisons between gameplay, you ended up pointing out contrasts instead of similarities. You have, at best, failed to ever substantiate your claim here, and at worst disproven it outright through your own arguments.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Maybe. As I said, some of the debuffs also have distinct effects. I'm not sure if Larva's is one of them or not. If I had to guess, the most likely difference would be having more ways to remove the debuff, but I haven't experimented much with that.  Also, I almost definitely included Nidus in my previous count, and even if I did, he's still just 1 frame, where I noted that I might need some correction.

Who cares? The Larva Nidus uses in PvP is clearly not the Larva he uses in PvE, regardless of other distinct effects, and the same can be said for the other abilities listed as Impairs, bringing the count above your estimation without even having to do any further research. QED.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

A lot of things have been quick, and the times it takes for changes to be made varies pretty drastically. That doesn't really say much other than X sorts of changes can be as quick as Y amount of time, but usually take Z amount of time, for some reason.

I fail to see how you can make a convincing point here when you conspicuously haven't listed a single example, resorting instead to... algebra? Why?

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Optimal requires quite a lot of evidence. People tend to have pretty varying views of what optimal is, but it's easy to see what competes well against the other contenders. As confident as I am with Ogris' performance, I more so approach showing optimality by comparing against what other people present. I can show it in a level 100 mission against armored enemies before I stop being active in this thread. It doesn't make for a good point of comparison, unless it's to something being showcased in the same mission, but I still need to show an example of how it works in that sort of environment.

Except your comparisons, in addition to themselves being heavily flawed due to deliberate manipulation on your part, clearly did not indicate optimality, and you have so far passed up every opportunity to prove your build in an actual in-game mission. Meanwhile, weapons such as kitguns are notorious for being extremely powerful, whereas the Ogris, while a known weapon, is not. Thus, while there is perhaps some room for over- or underestimation, there is a large body of evidence in favor of what I'm stating here, and none in favor of yours (in fact, your own "evidence" seems to go against it).

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

And this shows... what, exactly? The player is clearly having trouble killing those enemies, has to run Carrier + ammo mutation to avoid running out, and has to use numerous shots and exceptional amounts of time to deal with Nullifier bubbles, which remain the largest threat in that run. This video is on the same level as that other one with a player soloing Profit-Taker with Nyx: it's doable, but certainly not optimal.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Again, I have different things to do on different days. Please let me prioritize those things, else I just won't want to continue with this at all.

Literally no-one is forcing you to deliver anything on a deadline here. It is you who are choosing to post here, and to make claims first and provide evidence/"evidence" later. My only observation on the matter has been that you are quick to claim some very interesting things, but slow at best to provide evidence in support of them, and in pretty much every case you have visibly made an extraordinary claim before you had any actual evidence at hand to support it. It is therefore obvious that you are not basing your arguments on facts or evidence, but are merely arguing from your own bias, and subsequently attempting to find anything that confirms it (which generally seems to be random gameplay clips, none of which so far have supported any of the claims you've made). You can come up with a clip on your own time, but be mindful that every post you make without such evidence merely proves what I've just said, and demonstrates all the more that you consider facts secondary to your opinions. If me pointing out the obvious problems with such an approach is what is upsetting you, then you are indeed better off quitting, as that's not going to go away.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

It being a good weapon is different from being easy to hit headshots, which is what I was talking about. Also, no, my Ogris definitely outdoes it in the examples shown. If Catchmoon really is better, that'll have to be shown in some other test.

But the Catchmoon being a good weapon is the key point here, so you are visibly attempting to shift the goalposts to this discussion, an attempt made all the more perplexing given that all evidence does also point to the Catchmoon being easy to headshot with (i.e. Pax Seeker having notoriously great synergy with it, it dealing no bonus headshot damage specifically because of its hitbox, the hitbox itself being visibly large and easy to headshot with). Your Ogris certainly did not outdo it in the example shown, not even when you used literally every option at your disposal to make it look that way in an incredibly artificial environment. You are free to forge evidence at your discretion, but the fact remains that Kitguns are immensely popular and the Ogris is not, despite being a much cheaper weapon that's been around for much longer.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Believe it or not, my lack of understanding isn't feigned. I don't how I could convince you otherwise, but you could try to explain better, in order for that to either be a more strongly evidenced belief or to allow me to understand better.

I do not believe you for one second, nor would your lack of understanding be my problem at this point even if it were real. I have stated and restated myself clearly, including in the very paragraph you are responding to here: if you truly do not understand something, tell me precisely which part you do not understand and I may try to help, but as it stands you are giving no specifics, as per usual, and seem to believe that you not understanding something (or claiming as much) gives you valid cause to dismiss it. What you are telling me here is that you are either approaching this argument in such bad faith as to blockade all reasonable discussion, or are so out of your depth that reasonable discussion is not an option. In neither case are you telling me you are fit to continue debating in an honest and productive manner.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I did forget to find that video example that I mentioned, although I did link Summit's Vectis Prime video, so I just need to get some examples to supplement that.

https://youtu.be/g860R7WBxZc

This is literally just a build video though? What part of it indicates the build is good, let alone optimal? Even the content creator themselves did not put too much stock in it, as shown by the video's description.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

15:50 https://youtu.be/IrNAgxgzQs0

Same thing here, and on top of that you took four shots to kill a single target. That is particularly awful for a sniper rifle, especially when still dealing with sub-level 150 enemies.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Besides mine and Summit's I didn't find many examples of Vectis Prime being used in an endurance mission on console. This is to make a point about accuracy assessment, so damage numbers and stuff can be ignored. You can see that there are clear differences in accuracy, which you're free to compare to other PS4 players. The average is much closer Vinoraptor's. So while the sort of performance that Summit and I get would definitely be easy to us, considering it easy overall ignores the time/effort it takes to be able to make it easy. (That unfortunately took me a long time with a lot of people to understand.) It may look easy to a PC player, (and based on what I've seen, it definitely seems to be, since my snapping isn't that special in comparison to my tracking,) but I do have to be mindful of the fact that a lot of other people on console can't do this.

Okay, but literally all of those videos also show that the Vectis Prime isn't especially amazing, and you are once again demonstrating a clear double standard here between your support of the Vectis Prime, in spite of how difficult it is to aim with it on console, and your conspicuous doubt regarding the Catchmoon's ability to headshot in spite of its notoriously larger hitbox. There is absolutely no consistency to your argument, and I'm failing to understand what point you are even trying to establish here by elaborating upon the Vectis Prime's difficulty without pointing out any of its merits.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I don't think I have gameplay of myself using Catchmoon, but from the Vectis Prime videos, you can see why I'd be careful about judging ease purely from my own perspective.

No, I can't, because you are being blatantly inconsistent with the way you judge the accuracy of weapons, and are attempting to frame the Catchmoon and a sniper rifle in scoped aim on some comparable level of difficulty in headshots, which does not even begin to make sense. If you're trying to tell me you can't personally judge because your aim is apparently so exceptionally good... why exactly then did you miss four headshots consecutively on a stationary target?

Edited December 28, 2019 by Teridax68

[Aadi880]

Personally the current iteration of Conclave is just terrible and not fit.

ALL of the the conclave maps are just claustrophobic for my taste. This doesn't help the fact that everyone's bullet jumping.

tbh, I think the parkour update broke conclave even more, where before it was slower paced that it is now.

Now it feels like everyone is just zipping past each other with the TTK being rather long.

 

(Before melee rework)

There are exploitable things like slamming on the ground to knock down players and repeating it again with the Nikana Prime to essentially stun lock players. This should be a bannable offense honestly.

(After melee rework)

Telos Boltace spin2win. Possibly even worse.

 

Maybe some players will like it, but I don't.

 

If any changes I'd like to see happen:

> Double the base damage of all guns. Increase recoil, which should be deterministic, while having a 4x headshot multiplier (dependent on the guns, ofc)

> Bolt actions will always one hit from stomach and above (vectis), Semi automatic snipers should 2 hit, and one hit on the head (rubico).

> Restrict melee in its own game mode. (until proper balancing is done with them)

> Increase map size. Possibly use restricted areas of PoE and Orb Vallis as conclave maps

I'm suggesting an increased map size because it helps in coping with the current parkour system, such that there is a longer visible window for players.

 

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

On 2019-12-28 at 8:18 AM, Teridax68 said:

I'm sorry, two modes with entirely different gameplay are the same because they share the same assets? What kind of galaxy-brained argument is this?

How is the gameplay entirely different? Its the same controls (although with the caveat that some players might use different keybinding for PvP/PvE), the same maps, the same weapons, the same warframes etc. Just because the opposition actually moves with intent doesn't mean the gameplay is different.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

How is the gameplay entirely different? Its the same controls (although with the caveat that some players might use different keybinding for PvP/PvE),

Controls?! So all games with WASD controls are the same now?

1 hour ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

the same maps,

See above.

1 hour ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

the same weapons,

Which themselves have completely different stats from their PvE counterparts, aren't all added to PvP, and severely affect Conclave balance to this day.

1 hour ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

the same warframes etc.

Which are themselves also completely re-statted, and frequently redesigned, just to fit PvP... and as with weapons, that hasn't been great for balance either.

1 hour ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Just because the opposition actually moves with intent doesn't mean the gameplay is different.

It makes the gameplay completely different. There is absolutely no similarity between combat between players and AI enemies, and players amongst each other, precisely because the entirety of PvE design is predicated on giving players and enemies entirely different movement and toolsets. This is also without mentioning how the modding is completely different, how PvP doesn't feature gear, companions, or Operator mode, how the missions and objectives are different, and so on. Conclave really has about as much relevance to PvE as Frame Fighter, only some people were actually hyped for the latter for some (brief) period of time.

[Kontrollo]

On 2019-11-18 at 9:29 PM, Gentleman_Bird said:

I played a significant amount of Conclave a few months ago to get the skins, and my opinion is that the game is at its best when you have a full server of people to play with, and it's genuinely fun to play.

 

Unfortunately, when you do manage to find a game, it's usually with the same group of players who have 200 hours on Conclave that can kill you 20-0, and that doesn't feel very good, especially when your standing gain is based on your K/D. The feeling that other players are winning because they have better mods than you is also pretty discouraging. This means that most players play one game of Conclave, get completely destroyed, then never touch the game mode again.

Completely agree with the 'getting stomped' part. That's fundamentally a matchmaking problem, imho. At one point, standing gain was not so much tied to performance, but iirc it encouraged some people to try and hide away and afk in certain spots, which is of course especially problematic in the team-based modes. So it got changed.

I do think the way standing is gained does need another look -- actually the who rewards structure does. 

 

On 2019-11-18 at 9:29 PM, Gentleman_Bird said:

- Conclave definitely needs a balance pass, and there are a few weapons that are just plain unfun to play against like the Ignis Wraith. Apparently Melee 3.0 broke some stuff too.

- The Simulacrum needs a Conclave testing mode, since weapons and warframe abilities can vary significantly from the main game.

- I feel that Mods shouldn't give power, and instead impact customization stuff like zoom levels. Getting one-shot because the enemy has Spring-Loaded Broadhead doesn't feel good. Also, I feel that players should have easier access to mods, and shouldn't have to grind for them.

- There should also be a tutorial explaining features such as knockdown cooldowns, energy regeneration rates, and weapon sidegrades. The notion that Mk-1 weapons do more damage than their primed counterparts in Conclave is so backward that there's no way most players could figure it out without looking it up.

- A server browser is needed so you can actually find populated games

- Better rewards wouldn't hurt. Adding potatos to the Conclave store, or maybe have monthly missions that rewards your choice of a catalyst/reactor could get more people playing.

- And finally, a Conclave event is needed to kickstart the Conclave playerbase. When I first joined the game, there was a conclave event where everyone only had a bow, and it was super fun. Everyone was on a level playing field, and every death felt fair because your killer had the same loadout as you, no mod advantage.

These are some good suggestions.

 

I've missed this post previously, but I'm curious: Have you been playing Conclave before that, and if not -- i.e. starting from rank 0 -- can you tell us a bit more about your experience on the way?

[PyreFox]

Nobody installed Warframe for PvP, we are here for the grind of PvE xD

I personally don't like PvP and I think most of the community feels that way too.

[Kontrollo]

Quote

But you clearly do care, otherwise you wouldn't be responding to me. ...

Hah you got me, I do care about clearing up things that I feel could be misinterpreted. But I was clearly writing and addressing too much in my previous post and have to come up with a new way to talk to you. So I'm going to put that in a box from now on when conversing with you (specifically you, see a pattern there?).

1. No matter how you mince your words, Solar Rail Conflicts were popular. Flawed yes, but popular nonetheless.
    
2. Viewer counts are an indication of popularity. I'm surprised -- didn't you know that? And it's the viewer counts from a game in the same genre that does have some PvP dev investment, unlike Warframe. It's entirely relevant.
    
3. I was talking about what you -- specifically you, yourself -- have written, and about how that seems to be a cornerstone of your argument. Not anyone else, and definitely not the PvE playerbase as a whole (appeal to authority btw). That's not me having "made personal attacks", nor did I "change the narrative", nor an "attempt to quote mine" you, nor a "dishonest approach to debate", nor a "clear ad hominem" (maybe look that up?). It'd be easy to prove me wrong, though, as said previously: If you want to understand better, go into a game against someone who knows what they're doing. Try flopping around randomly. See if that makes you win a match. Oh and record it, I'd like to see.
    
4. When it comes to the topic of hostility towards people who like playing PvP in this game, do you really think it's a good idea to go about that by attacking me personally? I mean, really? Do you even try to have a conversation anymore: "... you feel personally victimized by this speaks to your own biases and misplaced sense of identity, and is your own problem entirely, not that of a far larger number of people sane enough ..." What even is this. 😅
    
5. I can't play in RC, but I can host for them. And it was just myself hosting one lobby of one game mode in my little spot on this planet. All I had to do was prove you wrong, which I did: "... Recruit Conditioning at this point is only a button one presses to be guaranteed to never enter a Conclave match, due to lack of players."
    
6. As for how the "Conclave skillset" doesn't translate to the rest of the game: I feel like getting better at aiming and tracking is something that helps anyone who is shooting at least some of the time (in a *gasp* shooter). Worth mentioning: Railjack right now, too. I'd say at this point you're just trying to be contrarian for the sake of it.

Spoiler

On 2019-12-12 at 4:34 PM, Teridax68 said:

It just did, yes, and to a fair degree of success, because unlike Conclave, Archwing isn't fundamentally irreparable, it's just been poorly implemented, and has proven to be successful when done right. Meanwhile, mining and fishing, whose mechanics are well-designed for the most part but not related to Warframe's core gameplay, have been made truly optional with Thumpers and Exploiter offering those same rewards through combat. This would be food for thought, if this hadn't already been said, so really, this is turning into who can repeat themselves more.

[1] It was a tremendously popular fad, for sure, which also generated massive amounts of player toxicity and complaints as larger clans dominated through sheer size, rather than player skill. Even then it wasn't successful, which is why DE scrapped the whole thing and created the Conclave as an attempt to still cater to the PvP crowd.

[2] How are viewer counts relevant to the discussion here, again? Where exactly is your evidence that PvP is popular in Warframe? Because the mode is, among other things, infamous for being a ghost town when people attempt to join a random match.

Putting aside how it's not very smart to explicitly state you've made personal attacks^[3] in your forum posts, you are clearly attempting to change the narrative^[3] here, as your post in question carried no such direction, and was set within a larger context of you denouncing the larger community's lack of interest in the mode. You really did pick the absolute worst way to try to contradict me here.

Grouping these two together:

This is a nice attempt to quote mine^[3] me, but the very post you are both quoting itself does not have me reduce the literal entirety of Conclave to combat, and leaves room for the supposed kind of movement you are claiming to be different. I still stand by my statement that the movement in Conclave is haphazard and unpleasant to anyone unfamiliar with it, and I think your attempt to dress it up as anything more still leaves the emperor with no clothes. That does not prevent the fact that there is obviously a learning curve to Conclave, as there is to any sort of game, even if that learning curve ultimately offers no value outside of the mode. Similarly, that too does not prevent the fact that certain strategies exist that make Conclave much easier at the cost of being abusive, like spamming the Ignis without much need for precision.

Oh, and side note, but a fallacy fallacy is when someone specifically dismisses an argument purely because it contains a fallacy. By contrast, I not only pointed out the fallacy in your point, but also went on to explain why the point was wrong outside of that, namely by explaining how bragging about how skilled one supposedly needs to be to be good at Conclave carries no relevance as to the mode's worth, because the skills Conclave fosters themselves have no application outside of the mode. You even wrote this pointless quote where you cited how I go on in the paragraph, yet suspiciously omitted its remaining contents:

 One has to ask: were you asking to be corrected?

[5] Hold on: so you specifically organizing and hosting RC games for a grand total of eight players across the whole Warframe community is somehow meant to convince me that it's not a ghost town? I'm sorry, but when I want a full squad in a PvE mission, I just select the mission I want to join and get matched with three more instantly. You've just put the nail in the coffin for RC here.

...

Outright lie, and a clear ad hominem^[3]:

Also worth mentioning I'm not the only one criticizing the movement of PvE even on this very thread, so your attempt to pin the blame solely on me here is as unsuccessful as it is indicative of your dishonest approach to debate.

Yes, it is elitist to believe the masses are conspiring to personally ruin the day for you and your tiny club, who are somehow above it all. I don't really see how you expect to win anyone over, besides the minuscule choir you're preaching to, by otherizing the PvE community in this manner.

[4] Oh, I'm well aware, and I fully support them, because the mode is crap. That you feel personally victimized by this speaks to your own biases and misplaced sense of identity, and is your own problem entirely, not that of a far larger number of people sane enough to see what's wrong with a piece of game content that has proven not to contribute positively to the game.

PvE may not emphasize aiming, but has plenty more mechanics PvP doesn't include at all, namely the use of abilities at an extremely high rate, proper use of Operator mode, much deeper warframe modding, and even the use of gear in select circumstances. It also absolutely emphasize movement, as using it right is key to completing missions quickly, in an environment where completion speed is highly valued in multiplayer.

I don't think you know what a red herring is: my simple point is that the Conclave skillset you so champion doesn't translate to anything outside of Conclave. If it had, there would be evidence for it, which you would have jumped to provide. My claim is therefore relevant to the point and leads into it, the opposite of a red herring.

And this is somehow unskilled, because... ?

As pointed out above, you certainly have things to do, it's just not really the same subset of things Warframe proper makes you do, and not in the same way. I myself have made no claim that PvE players are in any way better than PvP players or anything to that effect, so that's another lie, my point here though, same as the above, is that you have thus far been creating this distinction between PvE and PvP players to raise the latter at the expense of the former, all while trying to pretend that Conclave is somehow no different to the rest of Warframe, a narrative that is as false as it is inconsistent with itself.

...

Tags mine.

 

Now the one part where I feel like I have to elaborate:

Quote

You literally just proved me right with your response, though, and showed your dismissal of my point is utterly worthless, ...

Quote me, then. My words. Not your interpretation of what I'm writing.

Quote

... to say nothing of the improper citing of fallacies in strange revenge for me calling out yours (a false dichotomy is when only two alternatives are presented when more exist, which does not even begin to relate to this point).

The false dichotomy is in how you're trying to make this about PvE vs. PvP players. You were calling me a "Conclave main" before, as well. I am playing both, and as said previously, mainly PvE.

And even if there were a fundamental difference between the people who play only PvE or only PvP, it's still not some 'inherent skill' or whatever you want to make it out to be that somehow makes one side better and entitled to feel superior or what have you. It's about practice, is what I'm saying. You like something, you practice it, you get better at it. That's it.

 

P.S. I know what a Red Herring is. Do you? Or maybe you're just so wound up in what you're interpreting into my posts that you don't see it?

Edited December 31, 2019 by Kontrollo
formatting

[Teridax68]

43 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Hah you got me, I do care about clearing up things that I feel could be misinterpreted. But I was clearly writing and addressing too much in my previous post and have to come up with a new way to talk to you. So I'm going to put that in a box from now on when conversing with you (specifically you, see a pattern there?).

Strange then, that in your purported intent to clear things up, you rely heavily upon misinformation and lies. Let's see what you have to say:

43 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

1. No matter how you mince your words, Solar Rail Conflicts were popular. Flawed yes, but popular nonetheless.

Popular for whom? For which reasons? You and I both know Solar Rails were popular solely because they were tied to PvE rewards, and created such tremendous amounts of toxic behavior that DE had to scrap the feature within three update cycles. Is this really the kind of PvP you are advocating?

43 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

1. Viewer counts are an indication of popularity. I'm surprised -- didn't you know that? And it's the viewer counts from a game in the same genre that does have some PvP dev investment, unlike Warframe. It's entirely relevant.

It has strictly no relevance at all, as viewer count is but one of many factors determining popularity (didn't you know that?), and none of these have any bearing on the popularity of Conclave, which itself has virtually no representation on Twitch. I don't even know what you're trying to argue here, as your point is so remote from the topic of Conclave that it's questionable why you even chose to argue it.

43 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

1. I was talking about what you -- specifically you, yourself -- have written, and about how that seems to be a cornerstone of your argument. Not anyone else, and definitely not the PvE playerbase as a whole (appeal to authority btw). That's not me having "made personal attacks", nor did I "change the narrative", nor an "attempt to quote mine" you, nor a "dishonest approach to debate", nor a "clear ad hominem" (maybe look that up?). It'd be easy to prove me wrong, though, as said previously: If you want to understand better, go into a game against someone who knows what they're doing. Try flopping around randomly. See if that makes you win a match. Oh and record it, I'd like to see.

It is easy to prove you wrong, as you have been proven wrong already. I fail to see what you attempted to gain here by arguing from repetition. Similarly, there is already video evidence on this thread supporting what I've said, so really, this is visibly not a genuine request for evidence, so much as a touch of sealioning.

43 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

1. When it comes to the topic of hostility towards people who like playing PvP in this game, do you really think it's a good idea to go about that by attacking me personally? I mean, really? Do you even try to have a conversation anymore: "... you feel personally victimized by this speaks to your own biases and misplaced sense of identity, and is your own problem entirely, not that of a far larger number of people sane enough ..." What even is this. 😅

A simple observation of how you are bringing your personal issues to a broader discussion, and subsequently attempting to play the victim when called out on it, as shown here. It's not just me who takes issue with your attitude or that of the PvP community, either, and you are not the only one to display this kind of gross behavior. Similarly, you are in no position to speak of personal attacks when you and your cronies have been the first to throw stones from your glass house.

43 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

1. I can't play in RC, but I can host for them. And it was just myself hosting one lobby of one game mode in my little spot on this planet. All I had to do was prove you wrong, which I did: "... Recruit Conditioning at this point is only a button one presses to be guaranteed to never enter a Conclave match, due to lack of players."

Yes, which is the case, because one person hosting a dedicated RC match for one limited period of time is not going to contradict the fact that the mode is notoriously deserted in the vast majority of cases to the vast majority of players who attempt it. You are desperately trying to argue with me on the letter of my argument, rather than the substance, as even you yourself admit here that your contribution is ultimately insignificant, and irrelevant to the larger point at hand.

43 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

1. As for how the "Conclave skillset" doesn't translate to the rest of the game: I feel like getting better at aiming and tracking is something that helps anyone who is shooting at least some of the time (in a *gasp* shooter). Worth mentioning: Railjack right now, too. I'd say at this point you're just trying to be contrarian for the sake of it.

See above on how you are abstracting to such an absurd degree as "aiming and tracking", which could be said for literally any shooter, that it becomes impossible for you to make any cogent point. I'm not being contrarian here, I'm simply pointing out that you are grasping at straws in a futile attempt at convincing anyone new that Conclave is relevant to the rest of Warframe.

43 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Tags mine.

 

Now the one part where I feel like I have to elaborate:

Quote me, then. My words. Not your interpretation of what I'm writing.

I did exactly that in the reply you are responding to, which is a direct response to a quote of yours. If your strategy here is to try to exhaust your opponent through repetitious requests that selectively ignore arguments and facts that inconvenience you, think again.

43 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

The false dichotomy is in how you're trying to make this about PvE vs. PvP players. You were calling me a "Conclave main" before, as well. I am playing both, and as said previously, mainly PvE.

You are relying on that dichotomy as we speak, and your argument in support of Conclave hinges upon it. All Conclave players are by definition Warframe players, but not all Warframe players are Conclave players, and that subcommunity has isolated itself by its own hand. A simple glance at the Conclave subforum is enough evidence of the mentality at hand, to say nothing of such absurd threads at that one which asked to restrict posting there to Typhoons.

43 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

And even if there were a fundamental difference between the people who play only PvE or only PvP, it's still not some 'inherent skill' or whatever you want to make it out to be that somehow makes one side better and entitled to feel superior or what have you. It's about practice, is what I'm saying. You like something, you practice it, you get better at it. That's it.

I'm not claiming that one side is inherently more skilled than the other; that is in fact my entire point. It is you and others here who are attempting to argue that PvP somehow provides some superior skill to be learned and carried to PvE. Much as you try to deny it, your line of argumentation is fundamentally elitist, which is but one of the many reasons why you have utterly failed to preach to anyone here but the choir.

43 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

P.S. I know what a Red Herring is. Do you? Or maybe you're just so wound up in what you're interpreting into my posts that you don't see it?

I'm well aware, yes, which I why I pointed them out. You, by contrast, have this rather funny reaction to having fallacies named and pointed out in your post, in that you try to parrot them back at the person who first cited them, in hilariously inappropriate fashion. It is also equally funny that you would accuse me of being "wound up" about anything at all when it is you here who decided to return to this thread, six pages and twenty days later, just to dump this spiteful, hypocritical mess. You've lost this argument a long time ago, and coming back weeks later out of sheer seething hatred is not going to make you save face, quite the contrary.

[NuclearToast451]

On 2019-11-16 at 10:38 PM, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

...with conclave it’s like 1-5% of the community even play conclave regularly, it’s truly unpopular.

Probably already quoted, but I think you answered your own question with this statement. I've seen the same arguments from PVP enthusiasts in several games for years now, but the numbers don't lie.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

39 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Similarly, there is already video evidence on this thread supporting what I've said, so really, this is visibly not a genuine request for evidence, so much as a touch of sealioning.

Just because you aren't experienced enough to recognize his maneuvers doesn't mean he isn't flopping around randomly.

[Teridax68]

21 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Just because you aren't experienced enough to recognize his maneuvers doesn't mean he isn't flopping around randomly.

I'm not the only one who made that comment, and ultimately in neither case is the movement representative of what goes on in PvE. Putting aside the hilarity of all this snobbery around floppy jumping in a video game, it is also humorous that the single biggest issue you've taken from that one comment, which was intended to point out how unrelated and unappealing PvP movement is to PvE, is that you've chosen to interpret it as a personal attack upon your skill as a Conclave player.