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Do you think PVP can be successful ?

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5 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Completely agree with the 'getting stomped' part. That's fundamentally a matchmaking problem, imho. At one point, standing gain was not so much tied to performance, but iirc it encouraged some people to try and hide away and afk in certain spots, which is of course especially problematic in the team-based modes. So it got changed.

I do think the way standing is gained does need another look -- actually the who rewards structure does. 

 

These are some good suggestions.

 

I've missed this post previously, but I'm curious: Have you been playing Conclave before that, and if not -- i.e. starting from rank 0 -- can you tell us a bit more about your experience on the way?

When I first started playing, I only really played Conclave during the valentine's day bow event and the Quick Steel event, both of which had all players using the exact same loadout. Since I picked the bow as my starter weapon, I actually won games often during the bow event despite just starting the game. The Quick Steel event gave everyone a heavy melee weapon that one-shots people, but its unique stance means using it leaves you open to attack if you miss your target. It had some depth and risk to it.

 

 When I tried the main game, I saw people using a bunch of crazy different weapons and thought "I'll come back later when I have more stuff."

"Later" turned out to be a couple years later when I decided I wanted the skins.

 

Another thing of note is that with the new Railjack update, the Sentient ship provides a good way to farm Conclave mods. However, it's rather inaccessible to new players, so the mod problem still persists.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Just because you aren't experienced enough to recognize his maneuvers doesn't mean he isn't flopping around randomly.

So... it means he might be flopping around randomly? 

You're saying that just because we don't 'recognize' his 'maneuvers' it doesn't mean he's NOT randomly flopping around.

 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm not the only one who made that comment, and ultimately in neither case is the movement representative of what goes on in PvE. Putting aside the hilarity of all this snobbery around floppy jumping in a video game, it is also humorous that the single biggest issue you've taken from that one comment, which was intended to point out how unrelated and unappealing PvP movement is to PvE, is that you've chosen to interpret it as a personal attack upon your skill as a Conclave player.

He wasn't moving randomly. Anyone with enough experience in conclave can recognize what he was doing.

When I see someone maneuvering in conclave I look at several things. I consider their current EHP, I consider their position relative to health/energy/ammo, I consider what weapon they are using and where it would be most optimally used (you wouldn't snipe at someone with a baza), I consider what frame they are using and how much energy they might have in case I would have to maneuver away myself, I consider their position on the map compared to my own position to determine which routes they could take to get to me.

All of these things go through my mind when I see another player. I understand his maneuvering because I have fought players like him before. You too could understand what's going on if you put time into conclave.

Edited by (XB1)The Repo Man151
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15 hours ago, Paradoxity said:

So... it means he might be flopping around randomly? 

You're saying that just because we don't 'recognize' his 'maneuvers' it doesn't mean he's NOT randomly flopping around.

 

Yeah I made a typo with my phone. I think you know what I mean though,

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22 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

He wasn't moving randomly. Anyone with enough experience in conclave can recognize what he doing.

When I see someone maneuvering in conclave I look at several things. I consider their current EHP, I consider their position relative to health/energy/ammo, I consider what weapon they are using and where it would be most optimally used (you wouldn't snipe at someone with a baza), I consider what frame they are using and how much energy they might have in case I would have to maneuver away myself, I consider their position on the map compared to my own position to determine which routes they could take to get to me.

All of these things go through my mind when I see another player. I understand his maneuvering because I have fought players like him before. You too could understand what's going on if you put time into conclave.

You are literally just proving my point by repeating yourself here. It does not matter which convoluted process of evaluation you use to determine the floppiness of a player's movement, what is relevant here is that nobody outside of Conclave cares, or has any use for it. You have effectively fabricated your own hierarchy of skill just so that you could place yourself at the top, ignoring the fact that most players don't care for it, and don't want or need to play Warframe the way you do. You're probably right that if I dedicated myself to Conclave, I'd probably be more discerning... but I would still hate the mode, and the movement associated with it, as do most players. That is ultimately the failure of Conclave, in that its gameplay is fundamentally not something more than a tiny subset of players want to partake in.

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Here two examples that could help you with differentiating random flippy floppy movement and experience based combat maneuvers.

 

Thats me having fun with the agility that Warframe's movement system enables.

http://www.twitch.tv/loxyen/v/399482405?sr=a&t=2s

I used the pressure free space I had at that time in the match and just impulsively went with the flow with no real intention in mind other than seeing how it goes and where I end up until other players were in sight again. 

(despite me just pressing buttons impulsively there... such moves already have been proven effective in fight situations, alterations depending on each individual confrontation are a given ofc) 

 

 

And here is a gif of me syncing my moves and pathing to my target's actions.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It does not matter which convoluted process of evaluation you use to determine the floppiness of a player's movement

>It doesn't matter if you explain it in simple terms for me, I will refuse to understand what you are saying and keep my belief that all conclave movement is random

Edited by (XB1)The Repo Man151
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42 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

>It doesn't matter if you explain it in simple terms for me, I will refuse to understand what you are saying and keep my belief that all conclave movement is random

It doesn't matter, because the substance of the argument isn't whether or not the movement in Conclave is truly random in the literal sense, but whether or not it relates at all to the rest of Warframe, or is respected at all by the rest of the playerbase. It doesn't, and isn't. QED.

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On 2020-01-01 at 9:53 AM, Loxyen said:

Here two examples that could help you with differentiating random flippy floppy movement and experience based combat maneuvers.

 

Thats me having fun with the agility that Warframe's movement system enables.

http://www.twitch.tv/loxyen/v/399482405?sr=a&t=2s

I used the pressure free space I had at that time in the match and just impulsively went with the flow with no real intention in mind other than seeing how it goes and where I end up until other players were in sight again. 

(despite me just pressing buttons impulsively there... such moves already have been proven effective in fight situations, alterations depending on each individual confrontation are a given ofc) 

 

 

And here is a gif of me syncing my moves and pathing to my target's actions.

 

Those are some great clips, Loxyen. Thanks for sharing. I always enjoy seeing insights into how other players move and fight.

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On 2020-01-01 at 11:16 AM, Teridax68 said:

It doesn't matter, because the substance of the argument isn't whether or not the movement in Conclave is truly random in the literal sense, but whether or not it relates at all to the rest of Warframe, or is respected at all by the rest of the playerbase. It doesn't, and isn't. QED.

Movement in conclave isn't random. How can being better at movement from practicing it so much in conclave hurt the rest of the game? How does conclave hurt the rest of the game? At worst, it is a net benefit.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Movement in conclave isn't random. How can being better at movement from practicing it so much in conclave hurt the rest of the game? How does conclave hurt the rest of the game? At worst, it is a net benefit.

Where did I say practicing movement in Conclave hurt the game? How is it a net benefit?

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Wait people play conclave? 
 

I know it sounds like I’m trolling, but whenever I queue for it on console I either can’t find a match, or run into the same like.... four?-or so people. 

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Also played pvp since the dark sector, i loved it... So far all the version of pvp i played so far, but as much as i wish it be a bigger deal war frame is mainly considered PVE and people throw fit and get disgusted towards anything PVP.

So let me give you my take on pvp, anything can become popular and worth it if the reward is good enough.

Of course, the more something is exposed and people feel unfair the more complaints people will have... and when they see pvp get attention and exclusive pvp stuff that is good, wow will we have a problem. 

So my solution make pve player accept pvp players getting support and benefits.

Make benefit for pvp worth it.

Most people that play pvp and stick with it is for fun.

I have seen balance and the always attempt at valance for pvp but i am not completely ignorant that people mainly focus on certain builds because of advantages are easier to use.

However in pvp specially for warframe that has such varient if weapon and warframes we can't fix this vecause the fix that people want is make everything equal. ("balanced") 

However if we can make hard to use high reward, low difficulty average reward base type of balance we may get somewhere.

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To be honest, I do not miss PvP at all because I am mostly Quest and Story driven.

I know there are PvP Fans out there but PvP should always be a seperate part of the game, such as arenas or anywhere on a seperate server PvP player can meet.

I would not enjoy open world PvP or where PvE players would be forced to PvP in mind of griefing and/or harassment and do to PvP players, or clans (such as declaring war on other clans and so on). If this would be the case, I would be out.

Edited by Nevaee
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On 2020-01-10 at 5:11 PM, xxvaderxxar said:

Certainly but would need its own dedicated modes and balance.

It does have its own dedicated modes and balance.

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no, i dont think a traditional PvP experience can be balanced properly within Warframe
at least not without a team dedicated to it at all times
but i also dont think there should be such a team

what i'd like to see is a more hands off PvP where you dont directly fight other players
something along the lines of Destiny's gambit, minus the invasions as that just brings back the lack balance in directly fighting players
fill this mode with objectives, side objectives, and lots and lots of enemies
killing enemies gains you small points, completing side objectives inconveniences your opponents in some way
completing main objectives gives large points
this is just a quick thrown together idea, and not the only way to do something like this
but i think the hands off approach to PvP is better for Warframe

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1 hour ago, CandyManCriminal said:

no, i dont think a traditional PvP experience can be balanced properly within Warframe
at least not without a team dedicated to it at all times
but i also dont think there should be such a team

what i'd like to see is a more hands off PvP where you dont directly fight other players
something along the lines of Destiny's gambit, minus the invasions as that just brings back the lack balance in directly fighting players
fill this mode with objectives, side objectives, and lots and lots of enemies
killing enemies gains you small points, completing side objectives inconveniences your opponents in some way
completing main objectives gives large points
this is just a quick thrown together idea, and not the only way to do something like this
but i think the hands off approach to PvP is better for Warframe

that's more of arena but not something i would enjoy. I enjoy fighting head to head with my enemy. That's a pvp experience i do enjoy, if we change the method of pvp to this does that have trained themselves in this skills and have tried so hard for the current pvp may not be pleased because what occurs is we no longer have what we enjoy.

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18 minutes ago, Leavith said:

that's more of arena but not something i would enjoy. I enjoy fighting head to head with my enemy. That's a pvp experience i do enjoy, if we change the method of pvp to this does that have trained themselves in this skills and have tried so hard for the current pvp may not be pleased because what occurs is we no longer have what we enjoy.

yeah, thats fair

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Pvp can't work as is right now. There would have to be massive changes for balance, to make a somewhat even playing field. Conclave would be it's own game.

 

First off, every warframe needs the same stats in there. Spitballing, 200 health 200 shields. Something like that. Make it a cosmetic option for which warframe you pick, unless abilities are on when in there. May be weird to see Inaros with a shield, but everyone spawns in the same. If you do this, then you can properly adjust weapons and balance moving forward. X is killing too fast? Adjust its damage or fall off or etc. Y isn't up to par? Buff the damage to similar levels of others. Also think abilities should be off, but there needs to be more than one game mode. We can keep what we currently have, and add additional game modes on top of that. 4v4 team battles no abilities. 4v4 team battles with abilities. Capture the cephalon, last man standing, jailbreak, etc.

 

Weapon selection has to be brought down as well. Some weapons are basically power weapons and aren't really healthy to friendly competition. Arca plasmor and staticor and etc shouldn't be a starting weapon. Instead you should be able to pick from a filtered list of weapons to start off with for a loadout. Pick from a braton, burston, corinth, etc. Pick from aklato, akmagnus, brakk, etc. Have weapons you have to aim. Remember when you started warframe and had to pick between the braton/paris and lato/kunai? You walked up and hit a button and it swapped them out. They can easily transfer this over to conclave. Have power weapons spawn where you can pick them up. If they balanced everyone's health/shield, you can make them actual power weapons. Ogris spawns, capable of a one shot. Some sniper spawns, with a relative power level to other shooters. 2 bodyshots to kill, 1 headshot kill.

 

Crit/status would probably have to go. Headshots should do more, but random crits will cause salt. We probably need to do true damage and not IPS. Having impact do more against shields and such would cause issues with balancing.

 

We have a lot of weapons in the game. Not all of them should make it in to conclave if you want any sort of balanced competition. We can keep the 'funbag' conclave game mode we have right now, where its bring whatever you want and have fun, but that can't be made into fair and competitive. In any other game mode, we need to have a short list of weapons to put into a loadout. Whether you own the weapon or not, you can select them. Conclave is it's own game mode, and you don't get to keep the weapons when you leave. Maybe you can try out a new weapon and you end up really liking it. Go get it in the normal game. Try before you buy. Not sure about melee though... I know dual swords are broken right now...

 

Movement and abilities... This is a tricky one. In a traditional FPS we don't have as much movement or speed as we do now. Much less with third person perspective. Those who are very good with the movement system are going to have a very strong advantage. Also keep in mind that console is a thing, and aiming on there is a tragedy if you want pvp. May not be a popular idea, but removing a jump or slowing people down might have to happen. I'm not a fan of this idea personally. I would say keep the movement system as is and see what happens, but that will have to be decided through feedback and stuff. Abilities kind of make things complicated. They kind of break some things. Maybe they could be replaced as grenades or something. I'd say turn them off.

 

anyways.... just spitballing. Don't hate me too much. I would love to see a better pvp in the game but it just cannot work as it currently is. I do strongly believe it can work, but it needs a lot of adjustments before that can ever happen. Most of which people are not going to like.

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8 hours ago, SECURATYYY said:

Your post

I don't know when was the last time you played or if you keep up with it in the first place, but one thing about your post makes me think otherwise.

 

"There are no critical hits. Weapons instead have a headshot multiplier, generally x1.5; shooting an enemy in the head applies this multiplier."

Oh and maybe look up information about team annihilation matches where last time i checked 4v4 was a thing.

Currently, the dark sector is no longer a thing, warframe clan war hasn't happened for a long time, so we only got conclave and dojo for pvp.

I don't know where you fall under, but i am gonna give two categories, and you can be part of both.

First, people who post their opinions on pvp that do not research the topic and throw out comments thinking they are helping but really will ruin something that is already good because they have no idea what they are making an opinion about.

Second, people who have a specific preference for things such as ... Do it this way and that way... But these preferences are not because they care about the subject but because they think it is cool. This type of comments basically tries to turn something that is already is own thing to how other games do it.

_______ conclave- is what i consider the pvp.

Pvp guns are balanced, like any shooting games different guns do different things and different damage.

Pvp melee weapon are balanced as well, the damages are distributed in approximation to certain digits where no melee weapon is gonna be killing you in one shot.

Pvp powers are balanced in correlation to the cost you have to pay to use them.

Warframe stats are usually based on a reduction of there based rank 0 stats. Meaning they are balanced for the differentiation of what a warframe is. You can use the previous initial warranties as a good base to define them

Loki fragile but fast and tactical-scout/rogue

Rhino bulky but slow-tank

Excalibur balanced-attacker

Mag fragile but cc and straight damage- magician/archer

Even the warframe is set to be balanced in their own category as a reflection of PvE.

The biggest and greatest thing about pvp is variety, and if you are able to make a variety of work it is better than having everything be the same and boring. Which at that point Lunar, where why play?

 

Maybe you need a guide, but here are what you are dealing with each stat of your warframe makes a difference and you cant use a warframe if that isn't your style.

Each stat of the weapon makes a difference and there are even stats convert a portion of an attribute to different attribute to show the importance.

Each weapon must also be chosen carefully not just that one is good in PvE... No, if you got a pistol that has puncture you need a melee weapon or primary weapon you can switch to that has a focus on impact... Because shields need to go down quick before your pistol makes a difference. 

If you have a melee weapon that impacts you need a primary or secondary that is slash or puncture so once you take the shields with your melee down you doing better against the armor and health.

.... Warframe pvp doesn't need balance, it needs time investment from people so they understand it isn't just i use this weapon and i am good, is i get skilled at using my weapons to be good.

As for powers, they are good as it helps promote different playstyle and keeps things interesting but no power is gonna turn the game from 0 to 100 kills. They are gonna work as auxiliary support you need to understand how they work and learn to adapt.... Like any pvp, because you aren't gonna face someone who has claymores and a snipers head on trying to find them by being out in the open, no you gonna try to find their location with the least amount of exposure and once that's taken care and you dealt with the traps you will charge in. Same thing when dealing with enemies with power viable to them cause they picked up an orb.

Edited by Leavith
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On 2020-01-11 at 6:50 PM, CandyManCriminal said:

no, i dont think a traditional PvP experience can be balanced properly within Warframe
at least not without a team dedicated to it at all times
but i also dont think there should be such a team

what i'd like to see is a more hands off PvP where you dont directly fight other players
something along the lines of Destiny's gambit, minus the invasions as that just brings back the lack balance in directly fighting players
fill this mode with objectives, side objectives, and lots and lots of enemies
killing enemies gains you small points, completing side objectives inconveniences your opponents in some way
completing main objectives gives large points
this is just a quick thrown together idea, and not the only way to do something like this
but i think the hands off approach to PvP is better for Warframe

I would be fine with this idea if there werent dozens of ways to instantly kill enemies that are level 300+. Having any competition based on PvE in Warframe ends up coming down to the person who exploits the game the best wins. And in some cases, DE bans them for exploiting the game. Like the people who got banned for using certain strategies in the Hostile Mergers event.

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On 2020-01-08 at 5:37 PM, (XB1)TheRosenBones said:

Wait people play conclave? 
 

I know it sounds like I’m trolling, but whenever I queue for it on console I either can’t find a match, or run into the same like.... four?-or so people. 

Yes, people play conclave. There are dozens of us! Dozens! There is a whole active community of people who play conclave just lurking under the surface community of Warframe.

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PvP can absolutely be successful in warframe!

The problem is lack of bug fixing. When they fix the conclave bugs or crazy overpowered stuff (Like the current instant kill on slide attack with all dual swords, to name one of several) there is a surge in conclave popularity. The problem is it usually takes ~1 year to fix any bug like this, which is long enough for the majority of players to give up on the game-mode entirely. If the bugs were fixed in <1 month, I'm sure that conclave would be far more popular than it is today.

If we truly care about the long-term success of warframe, we should all want successful PvP. Even the people who never play PvP should want it to be successful, since it draws in a larger crowd which is a good thing. I've never understood the whole "It's primarily a PvE game so there shouldn't even be PvP" argument, since a successful game markets to many different types of players. The original warframe was also not intended to have pet breeding, mining, fishing, etc... But the same people who make that argument don't apply it to those things (for some unknown reason.) Personally, I'm not a fan of the pet breeding, mining, or fishing, but I understand that this brings in a different crowd. So I'm happy that warframe is seeing more success as a result of catering to more types of players. 

In every other online game I've played, the "endgame" is PvP, because that's where you can test your skills against others. That doesn't necessarily mean that there is progression tied to PvP, it's usually some kind of prestige / cosmetic rewards. The mentality being "I've finished building my character(s), now I'll test my skills against others." The progression related rewards no longer matter at that point, because the character(s) are already built, hence the prestige / cosmetic rewards. The great thing here is it prevents the complaints about "content drought" because it gives players things to work on once they've "finished" the PvE stuff. 

But, when someone finishes their PvE stuff and tries conclave just to spend the entire time ragdolled by telos boltace, one-shot by dual sword slides, killed by massive staticor AOE, etc... Then it's understandable why they might instead go back to PvE, refusing to ever play PvP again and instead complain about PvE content drought. (A complaint which I think causes DE to keep making insanely long grinds for things like intrinsics, and layers upon layers of RNG to artificially extend the duration of content.) 

I'm hoping the future of warframe PvP is brighter, I think it'll be better for a game as a whole - Leaving people to play PvE only if they want, but also drawing in a PvP crowd. That would be a good thing 🙂 

 

 

 

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On 2020-01-12 at 8:16 PM, Leavith said:

.... Warframe pvp doesn't need balance, it needs time investment from people so they understand it isn't just i use this weapon and i am good, is i get skilled at using my weapons to be good.

As for powers, they are good as it helps promote different playstyle and keeps things interesting but no power is gonna turn the game from 0 to 100 kills. They are gonna work as auxiliary support you need to understand how they work and learn to adapt.... Like any pvp, because you aren't gonna face someone who has claymores and a snipers head on trying to find them by being out in the open, no you gonna try to find their location with the least amount of exposure and once that's taken care and you dealt with the traps you will charge in. Same thing when dealing with enemies with power viable to them cause they picked up an orb.

You are 100% right about that. Conclave has a lot of depth so it is harder for some people to get into, whereas everything else in warframe requires negligible amounts of effort or time investment.
My main issue with powers isn't that they are cheesy or powerful, they are supposed to be. My issue is with how easy it is to spam them. The current energy economy needs a rework. I believe passive energy gain should be disabled. It would be a good start.

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