Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[Erwes]

pvp could be succeful. But there is not point to invest time that players don't have in it. If only there were tournament, or monthly classement, champions banner in relay, dunno. Maybe it will appeal more

[Vit0Corleone]

I don't think "traditional" PvP ( assuming this is what you mean ) will ever be adopted by the Warframe community.

But I do believe that competitive PvE could be very interesting *if well thought through*.

Something like what they tried to do with Solar Rails, but without the "players shooting players" PvP aspect, would fit nicely with Warframe IMHO.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Vit0Corleone

[Kontrollo]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

I really do think DE has abandoned Conclave just because it isnt popular. On that note, the only way DE will dedicate time to fix conclave is for there to be players like us to want it.

Sure, but that's kind of a chicken-and-egg argument, isn't it?

Somehow, other games manage to get that done just fine, and as an example from what I hear about Destiny 2 (I don't play it), it's not only working, it's also much more integrated into the game (not something I think is necessary, though).

[Corvid]

5 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Something like what they tried to do with Solar Rails, but without the "players shooting players" PvP aspect, would fit nicely with Warframe IMHO.

So in other words, Solar Rails 1.0.

People seem to forget that Contested Rails were PvE missions before they added the PvP version later. They used the Void Tileset and had you facing off against Spectres with semi-random loadouts.

[Vit0Corleone]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

So in other words, Solar Rails 1.0.

People seem to forget that Contested Rails were PvE missions before they added the PvP version later. They used the Void Tileset and had you facing off against Spectres with semi-random loadouts.

I wasn't around when Solar Rails was a thing. I understand, from feedback from multiple people, that is was a mess for several reasons.

What I mean thou, is that the base concept they went for with competitive PvE is sound IMHO, and if explored properly could be pretty fun and sustainable.

Here's my old thread for reference:

 

[TARINunit9]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

So I wanted to discuss so you think PVP in Warframe can ever be successful again in Warframe ? & if so how can it be fixed ? I personally feel like DE should have a team that specifically works on PVP 

Fundamentally no. When I joined Warframe I was seeking refuge from forced PvP mechanics in every other video game (freakin' Dead Space 2 was trying to push a PvP mode), and I know full well that I wasn't alone. Warframe was the game for people who didn't want to play PvP.

Half a decade later with the continual glut of Battle Royale modes, I have a lot of reason to believe Warframe is still that game for those people

[Atsia]

It could, but considering PvP wasn't something DE had planned on doing in the first place, and their last 2 or 3 attempts to get interest in it have flopped, it's very unlikely Conclave will be more than what it is. The only reason it's even still in the game is because of the little to no maintenance it currently requires.

[(PSN)OccultSif]

No.

[Takanuva0510]

The trick to making the PvP modes relevant again is going to revolve around a couple of things (should DE ever really decide to try anything with conclave)

The first is making sure the rewards are relevant without making it so the player feels like they have to participate in the PvP mode. Throwing in some of the more hard to get mods as high tier rewards is an example, as those mods are still possible to get outside of PvP. Things like universal medallions could also be good, since those aid the PvE side but don't make the conclave mandatory.

The second thing  is much less necessary, but I think could help nonetheless. That is some kind of balancing mechanic that would allow for veterens and new players who are similar in skill level to compete against each other. Basically if there is a player at MR 6 who has a similar skill level to that of a MR 19, their gear should be balanced so that their skill is the deciding factor rather than the fact that the MR 19 probably has access to much more powerful weapons and mods.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

Sure, but that's kind of a chicken-and-egg argument, isn't it?

Somehow, other games manage to get that done just fine, and as an example from what I hear about Destiny 2 (I don't play it), it's not only working, it's also much more integrated into the game (not something I think is necessary, though).

Pvp works in shooting games because it's just shooting. People are making way too many false equivalencies between things like CoD and a more in depth game like WF.

Actually pvp with fighting, weapon combos, guns and other abilities is something completely different 

[S.Dust]

12 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

here is simply too much stuff to properly balance it for PvP

That is an easy fix but I already know DE wont take the suggestion. They only need to really balance frames as far as weapons go just add limitations like only let certain weapons in, they already don't alow custom weapons it would be no different than that. maybe they only have two of each weapon type so two snipers, two assault riffles, etc. They could even do the reverse and limit frames and balance weapons, everyone gets a starter frames.

[S.Dust]

Real talk it's less that PVP sucks and more than DE suck at upkeep they seem to release a lot of things that ideally would be updates every few months but they never do they release content and leave it in its initial state slowly letting it rot. Example being any of the open worlds would benefit from more things being added to them over time  even if it's over a long period of time, what they add would be up to them. DE just suck at upkeep like I can almost completely say the kuva lich system will die out purely because everyone gets one of each weapon and calls it a day, you would think an easy solve would be add more weapons but I highly doubt they will ever do that because they're not good with upkeep.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

Draksectors where horribly unbalanced part of reason they went away.  Conclaive just doesnt have enough people interested to even say it exists.  Pvp has failed time and again here because it is not what 96-98% of the comunity wants.  and the 2-4% isnt enough to justify anything serious being committed to putting anything major in as far as time or resources

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

41 minutes ago, S.Dust said:

That is an easy fix but I already know DE wont take the suggestion. They only need to really balance frames as far as weapons go just add limitations like only let certain weapons in, they already don't alow custom weapons it would be no different than that. maybe they only have two of each weapon type so two snipers, two assault riffles, etc. They could even do the reverse and limit frames and balance weapons, everyone gets a starter frames.

Because it's a bad suggestion 

[S.Dust]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Because it's a bad suggestion 

If the problem is the ammount they have to balance then lower the amount that simple how is that a bad suggestion. Not everyone weapon in the game deserves be playable in pvp.

[Akjir]

No.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

2 hours ago, Vit0Corleone said:

I wasn't around when Solar Rails was a thing. I understand, from feedback from multiple people, that is was a mess for several reasons.

What I mean thou, is that the base concept they went for with competitive PvE is sound IMHO, and if explored properly could be pretty fun and sustainable.

Here's my old thread for reference:

 

Almost all of that feedback should be ignored, as most of the people you heard it from were extremely ignorant of how the system worked.

Because you are ignorant of rails, I will explain them to you. In detail.

To construct a Solar Rail, a clan needs to construct an orokin lab. To construct an orokin lab, the players in the clan need to contribute 1000 Credits, 800 Ferrite, 350 Circuits, 350 Polymer Bundle, and 1 forma. Truly a herculean task, considering many peoples' reactions to the hema research costs. From this point forward, the clan could choose to research a Tower-Class Solar Rail. For clans to research a Tower-Class Solar Rail the players in the clan need to contribute 10,000 Credits, 500 Alloy Plates, 600 Circuits, 750 Ferrite, and a single forma.

Once the clan has the research completed, they can begin construction on the actual Solar Rail. To construct the Solar Rail, clan members need to contribute 500000 Credits, 25 Gallium, 15000 Rubedo, 15000 Plastids, and 25 Control Modules.You also would have to begin creating the schema for your solar rail, this is sort of like dojo decorating with energy shields and rocket turrets instead of rocks and floofs. The leaders of the clan could then choose to deploy their Solar Rail on the dark sectors. There are four possible states of a dark sector in which a clan will be unable to deploy on it.

1. If the node is in an armistice state after a conflict has taken place on the node. If the offensive rail that deployed on the node in the previous conflict was successful, there will be a 48 hour armistice period where no clans/alliances could deploy on the node. If the defensive rail was successful in holding off the attack, depending on the percentage of damage done to its health, there will be an armistice period ranging from 16 hours to 48 hours. This gave the defensive parties time to repair their rail. Do not confuse this with the armistice state that rails are currently in. 

2. If the node is already in conflict, a third rail can not be deployed. That would be stupid and would just lead to endless third partying. I respect DE's choice in this design. The conflict could last up to 12 hours. If the offensive rail successfully makes 750 attacks on the defending rail in that 12 hours period, the conflict could potentially end earlier. My alliance actually held the world record for the fastest successful conquest of a Solar Rail. Our record was destroying the Rail in just under 2 hours. Fun Fact, we did that conflict without battlepay as a display of power against a rival alliance. We did not whine on the forums of how it was unfair that the other alliance had taken our node. Instead, we martialed our forces in the game and subsequently fought the greatest assault in the history of the dark sector conflicts to retake our territory.

3. If a node is currently being deployed on by another clan/alliance. The deployment process lasts 24 hours. For example, if I deployed a Solar Rail on Coba at 6pm on a Thursday, then the conflict would begin that Friday at 6pm. This knowledge was essential to warlords such as myself because we could use it to set up times for conflicts where we would be able to bring the majority of our force to bear on a node. An understanding of mechanics such as these is what made the difference between victory and defeat.

4. If a node is already owned by that clan, they can not deploy on it. The same undeployable status also applies when the node is owned by the alliance that the clan is in. It also applies if the clan deploys on a node owned by another clan that in the alliance of the deploying clan. 

Now back to the main topic.

Once the clan/alliance has chosen a node that is able to be deployed on, they have to make the decision to invade it. Many factors have to be considered such as the strength of the opposing clan/alliance, the strength of their own clan/alliance, the resources that the node drops, the location of the node in the star chart(at that time, many players did not have planets like Eris, Pluto, or Ceres unlocked. Warframe was only on Xbox for a few weeks at that point so the level and location of the node in the star chart was a factor in our decision making),  the time of our deployment windows, and the overall readiness of our alliance. We also considered economic factors because the tribute that was collected from the nodes would also be collected from the eom credits reward, so planets that were higher up in the star chart would be much more valuable than the ones towards the bottom. (interestingly, this was inversely true in practice, we discovered. because so much of the Xbox community was still stuck in the lower end of the star chart, nodes like coba could be just as valuable as nodes like sechura even though there was a tremendous difference in the eom rewards.)

Another factor to consider was that because much of the community still played on nodes like coba, the potential number of players fighting in the rail conflicts on that node was much higher. So if you deployed on sechura, although there would be fewer players to fight you, those players would be considerably more powerful than the hordes of lower mastery ranked players that would have fought on coba(even though, you could still fight the higher level players.)

Once your leaders have deployed the rail, the 24 hour deployment process begins. This is the time where you want to prepare as many people as possible to fight in your war. This can include taxiing them to bosses so they can unlock planets and more nodes, mass messaging your members to make sure they are aware of the conflict, and having last minute credit donation marathons to your clan/alliance treasury. Once all of these preparations complete and you have as many of your members ready to fight as possible, all that is left is to wait is for the deployment timer to reach 0. Once it reaches 0, you can begin the conflict

Once the conflict begins, you have to successfully destroy the core of the defending Solar Rail 750 times over the course of the conflict or your offensive rail will be destroyed and the node will enter a state of armistice. You will have 12 hours to achieve these 750 victories. I will not explain the actual battle mechanics because the schema of the solar rail could be customized so there were different types of objectives for every clan you fight so any explanation would have to span dozens and dozens of variations and peculiarities. I will also not discuss specter regiments for the same reason.

If you are successful in conquering the node, congratulations. You now have to deal with having a target on your back. But there were a huge number of benefits. Free advertising, for starters, because you can put your clan/alliance emblem on the node as well as a message to greet players when they select that node to play one. You also have the option of demanding tribute from the players playing on the node. Yes, even players in your own clan/alliance. Although, there were separate tributes you could set for people you were allied with.

If you are not successful, you can construct another solar rail and try again.

 

Your PvE based idea for Rails sounds good on paper but you have to realize what DE does to players who dont use DE approved tactics to achieve victory. They went and outright banned many players for creatively using warframe abilities to destroy/disarm demolysts during Hostile Mergers. What was good about Rails was that even I, a MR7 with only a few mods and barely understood frames, could engage and even beat players that were twice my mastery rank. You will be unable to do that in PvE. Do you think a MR7 stands a chance at doing PvE content better than someone who is MR27 that can annihilate entire tilesets?

 

[Kontrollo]

1 hour ago, S.Dust said:

If the problem is the ammount they have to balance then lower the amount that simple how is that a bad suggestion. Not everyone weapon in the game deserves be playable in pvp.

I partly disagree with this.

If every weapon is viable, then every weapon is worth getting. Which makes them a reason/goal to play the game. And that's not something that can be said about PvE anymore, even after they put in a lot of effort to rebalance all three weapon classes these past years. Because after Fortuna it simply boiled down to "no need to bother, just get a Catchmoon".

 

But yes, if they aren't willing to spend the dev time, then shoring it up is a good way to handle that. PvP is much more sensitive to imbalances. Which is part of the reason why I want Opticor Variant back: So there's at least one mode one could play if some change *cough melee 3.0 cough* messes up the other modes again.

[Vit0Corleone]

27 minutes ago, (XB1)Saint Nasim said:

~ things ~

 

Thanks for such detailed explanation.

I was already aware of most of the mechanics after doing some research myself, although not at that level of detail.

In any case, I didn't mean "bring back solar rails", but rather that some sort of competitive PvE could be interesting in Warframe.

AFAIK, Solar Rails was DE's attempt at that, which is why I used it as an example, but it seems as it wasn't very well thought through.

The overall concept thou, I think it's sound, and should definitely be explored. If they come up with something like that, but without the "player shoots player" PvP aspect of it, I'd be totally on board.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

1 minute ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Thanks for such detailed explanation.

I was already aware of most of the mechanics after doing some research myself, although not at that level of detail.

In any case, I didn't mean "bring back solar rails", but rather that some sort of competitive PvE could be interesting in Warframe.

AFAIK, Solar Rails was DE's attempt at that, which is why I used it as an example, but it seems as it wasn't very well thought through.

The overall concept thou, I think it's sound, and should definitely be explored. If they come up with something like that, but without the "player shoots player" PvP aspect of it, I'd be totally on board.

Oh but you dont understand. Competitive PvE would make Rails far more toxic and untenable than they were when they were PvPvE.

[_Kiro]

No. It should be killed off like Raids and redone.

I'm yet to understand how that mode still exists the way it does while sections of the game were removed to be made better.

[No1NParticular31]

16 hours ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

So I’ve been around for dark sectors and obviously conclave . Dark sectors/Solar Rail conflicts were pretty well received by the community and people actually enjoyed participating in it back then, but with conclave it’s like 1-5% of the community even play conclave regularly, it’s truly unpopular. So I wanted to discuss so you think PVP in Warframe can ever be successful again in Warframe ? & if so how can it be fixed ? I personally feel like DE should have a team that specifically works on PVP 

Honestly with as many frames and weapons that exist in the game, and how each frame is completely different, I think trying to properly balance PVP in WF would be a never ending nightmare for DE and even then I am not sure it could be done satisfactorily. No matter what they did players would be crying for nerf this frame and that weapon constantly even more than they are now.

[Cloud]

In warframe? Absolutely not. This game was not meant to be pvp in the first place, secondly DE have no enough experience, background and consistency to balance a PVP game.

Whatever attempt to make PVP appealing will always fail, luckily for us, I don't want another Fortnite case.

[DeMonkey]

20 minutes ago, Cloud said:

secondly DE have no enough experience, background

On the contrary, they've been a part of several pvp games in the past.

[DatDarkOne]

23 minutes ago, Cloud said:

secondly DE have no enough experience, background and consistency to balance a PVP game.

Sorry fellow Tenno.  You might want to check the history on DE for that one.