Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[(PSN)sdaly96]

52 minutes ago, (XB1)GameGhost123 said:

As long as i get to play as clem 😡

Sure throw in darvo for good measure 

[(PSN)WarforgedArcher]

3 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Because there's already an entire subforum for it.

Makes sense I didn’t know thank you for the information 

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

The only way for PvP to work in Warframe is that DE will have to spend a huge amount of time and resources to completely redesign Conclave in its entirety! Then on top of that they will have to make dedicated servers all around the world to support online play with more than 4 people. 

This altogether is basically unfeasible especially wwith the fact that Warframe's player base does not play this game for PvP would make this a foolish investment.

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

11 hours ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

The only way for PvP to work in Warframe is that DE will have to spend a huge amount of time and resources to completely redesign Conclave in its entirety! Then on top of that they will have to make dedicated servers all around the world to support online play with more than 4 people. 

This altogether is basically unfeasible especially wwith the fact that Warframe's player base does not play this game for PvP would make this a foolish investment.

a risky investment for sure but a decent pvp experience might bring in many new players & also it would give people a reason to stream warframe. If you look at how many people stream/watch warframe its abysmal 

EDIT: Currently they're is only 633 viewers of warframe on twitch. compared to destiny 2's 5,000 viewers.

Edited February 20, 2020 by (PS4)Akuma_Asura_

[Corvid]

57 minutes ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

a risky investment for sure but a decent pvp experience might bring in many new players

They tried before.

Multiple times.

It hasn't worked.

58 minutes ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

If you look at how many people stream/watch warframe its abysmal 

So?

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

59 minutes ago, Corvid said:

They tried before.

Multiple times.

It hasn't worked.

So?

DE shouldn't focus on pvp right now as someone who enjoys pvp but that doesn't mean after everything else gets sorted out they can't fix pvp.

 

Advertising and marketing is a big part in growth /sustain for a game in many cases. Yes wf isn't really losing a terrible amount without streamers and content creators. They are at the same time. Many times before people play a game they go on YouTube or twitch and watch it. Imagine a potential player seeing life of Rios most recent video or many of the warframe is not in a good state video. Or seeing that twitch is abysmal for the game. Alot of people would assume the game is not worth playing 

"content creators  don't matter" as much as people would like to Think that they do. Alot. The exposure and or good or bad publicity a content creator can bring can be very detrimental to the game. Just because me or you don't care for them doesn't mean the general public or average person doesn't. And the average person is a.larger and more active group this those of us on the forums complaining about ccs

[AlanThicc]

Quasi-random question: has there been/is there a "successful" pvp game that features the p2p network architecture that Warframe does while in mission? (Define "successful" as loosely you as you want here.)

[Mr.Fluffins]

1 hour ago, AlanThicc said:

Quasi-random question: has there been/is there a "successful" pvp game that features the p2p network architecture that Warframe does while in mission? (Define "successful" as loosely you as you want here.)

Well I don't know what does Destiny 2 run on, but every single pvp game that was worth playing had proper server tools.

I mean I could say "Dark souls", but pvp in that was a different kind of animal altogether (DS is PVE first and foremost), plus the game is not nearly as fast as Warframe.

[AlanThicc]

2 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

Well I don't know what does Destiny 2 run on, but every single pvp game that was worth playing had proper server tools.

I mean I could say "Dark souls", but pvp in that was a different kind of animal altogether (DS is PVE first and foremost), plus the game is not nearly as fast as Warframe.

I don't know anything about Destiny, but Dark Souls is a solid answer. Though I do agree its a bit of a different animal.

I believe Gears of War initially had some interesting p2p architecture and that was just a mess.

[Corvid]

10 minutes ago, AlanThicc said:

I don't know anything about Destiny, but Dark Souls is a solid answer. Though I do agree its a bit of a different animal.

I believe Gears of War initially had some interesting p2p architecture and that was just a mess.

IIRC the Halo games used P2P, at least until Guardians.

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

12 minutes ago, AlanThicc said:

I don't know anything about Destiny, but Dark Souls is a solid answer. Though I do agree its a bit of a different animal.

I believe Gears of War initially had some interesting p2p architecture and that was just a mess.

I can attest to this, it was common practice in Gears 1 and 2 to throw your smoke grenade at the start to see if you were host or not. If it spun in the air you were host, if it flew like a lame duck you weren't. Gears 3 changed it to dedicated servers which was a lot better. I still miss playing Capture the Leader with my full 5 man team, we had so many rounds that would go the full ten minutes where the capture time was reduced from 30 seconds to 1. 

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

15 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

DE shouldn't focus on pvp right now as someone who enjoys pvp but that doesn't mean after everything else gets sorted out they can't fix pvp.

just to further reiterate on this post, nobody is asking DE to completely focus on the PvP in this game. We just want one or two devs to spend 5 minutes or so and fix the issues in Conclave.

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

skip to 2:51 . Sabuuchi has the right idea 💡 

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

On 2020-02-20 at 10:36 AM, Corvid said:

They tried before.

Multiple times.

It hasn't worked.

So?

All of DE’s attempts were half assed in my opinion. For example having two people work on conclave isn’t “trying“. But I know they could do if it they wanted to .

Edited February 22, 2020 by (PS4)Akuma_Asura_

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

All of DE’s attempts were half assed in my opinion. For example having two people work on conclave isn’t “trying“. But I know they could do if it they wanted to .

The most recent iteration had a larger team than just 2 people to start off with. It wasn't returning the investment, so resources got transferred away.

I wonder, how many times will PvP have to fail before you accept that it's not going to work?

Edited February 22, 2020 by Corvid

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

57 minutes ago, Corvid said:

The most recent iteration had a larger team than just 2 people to start off with. It wasn't returning the investment, so resources got transferred away.

I wonder, how many times will PvP have to fail before you accept that it's not going to work?

I also wonder when are you going to realize that’s just your opinion? Destiny 1s PvP use to be trash , now look at it . But hey I’m not really here to change how you feel .

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

I also wonder when are you going to realize that’s just your opinion? Destiny 1s PvP use to be trash , now look at it . But hey I’m not really here to change how you feel .

I'm not making a qualitative argument regarding conclave. Whether or not it's good or bad is irrelevant to my point.

"I don't like it" is my subjective opinion. "DE have tried multiple times to spark interest in Warframe PvP, each time using successively more dev time and resources, and none of the attempts have succeeded in maintaining a playerbase sizable enough to warrant continued investment" is an objective fact.

[Kontrollo]

41 minutes ago, Corvid said:

I'm not making a qualitative argument regarding conclave. Whether or not it's good or bad is irrelevant to my point.

"I don't like it" is my subjective opinion. "DE have tried multiple times to spark interest in Warframe PvP, each time using successively more dev time and resources, and none of the attempts have succeeded in maintaining a playerbase sizable enough to warrant continued investment" is an objective fact.

Ooh, looks like someone has some background information. Please give us a (detailed?) breakdown of how much dev time has been spent on Conclave in the last few years -- let's say from 2015 on, when they revamped Conclave. I'm just burning to get more insight there.

[Corvid]

34 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Ooh, looks like someone has some background information. Please give us a (detailed?) breakdown of how much dev time has been spent on Conclave in the last few years -- let's say from 2015 on, when they revamped Conclave. I'm just burning to get more insight there.

Don't need background info. And why should I limit myself to only Conclave? My point is regarding the entirety of PvP across this game's history.

Quick recap of what each incarnation of PvP required in terms of development:

Dueling used a single box room.

Colosseum (or as it's sometimes referred to, Conclave 1.0) used 2 maps (one of which, Freight Line, would later return in Conclave proper) and PvE stats.

Dark Sector Conflicts had a unique map (complete with NPC turrets and customisable defence layouts), as well as a special system that restricted your mod setup at the start of the match.

Conclave has a fairly large quantity of exclusive maps (16, not counting Lunaro pitches or the returning map mentioned earlier), and its own discrete set of mods and weapon stats, with several Warframes' powers being either altered or outright replaced.

It is evident that more and more development effort went into each successive iteration simply based on the scale of what each version added. Unless, of course, you want to make the argument that a box room somehow took more development time than any of the versions that followed.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Corvid

[(XBOX)Chroma Prime]

On 2020-02-12 at 7:19 PM, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

I'm sure some people would complain loudly about being forced to PVP

That is exactly the problem. PvP shouldn't be forced on anyone. Especially this fragile community. They already complain when the only things locked behind the Conclave syndicate are cosmetic.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Chroma Prime said:

That is exactly the problem. PvP shouldn't be forced on anyone. Especially this fragile community. They already complain when the only things locked behind the Conclave syndicate are cosmetic.

That's really not necessarily a bad thing. When the game locked things behind syndicates or the locals who run fortuna/PoE how is it any real difference between giving incentives or rewards for playing conclave? 

I'm the biggest advocate for DE making all the concalve stance mods/augments usable in PvE. Just would be fun to mess around with em.

[(PSN)sdaly96]

There should have been a quest or something to introduce conclave to new players at the very least

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

1 hour ago, (PS4)sdaly96 said:

There should have been a quest or something to introduce conclave to new players at the very least

agreed, that would be “trying”

[Kontrollo]

On 2020-02-23 at 3:21 AM, Corvid said:

Don't need background info.

The question was about how much investment went into it, and so you admit you don't know.

Honestly, the number of easy to fix problems just speak for themselves. It doesn't matter that it had more than two people at some point, when it's basically been no one for a while anymore, and we're talking about a company that has ~300 employees at this point.

What should be clear is that it was always a small team in charge of this part of the game, and that's fine -- it doesn't actually need to be a major focus. But they also took things away for no good reason and refuse to fix low-hanging-fruit kind of issues.

 

On 2020-02-23 at 3:21 AM, Corvid said:

And why should I limit myself to only Conclave? My point is regarding the entirety of PvP across this game's history.

Quick recap of what each incarnation of PvP required in terms of development:

Dueling used a single box room.

Colosseum (or as it's sometimes referred to, Conclave 1.0) used 2 maps (one of which, Freight Line, would later return in Conclave proper) and PvE stats.

Dark Sector Conflicts had a unique map (complete with NPC turrets and customisable defence layouts), as well as a special system that restricted your mod setup at the start of the match.

Conclave has a fairly large quantity of exclusive maps (16, not counting Lunaro pitches or the returning map mentioned earlier), and its own discrete set of mods and weapon stats, with several Warframes' powers being either altered or outright replaced.

It is evident that more and more development effort went into each successive iteration simply based on the scale of what each version added. Unless, of course, you want to make the argument that a box room somehow took more development time than any of the versions that followed.

A single Dojo room that's so cramped you can't even have proper duels. It's so laughable, activating friendly fire in the Simulacrum provides a better experience.

A single map for the Conflicts. At least this one was big enough to be composed of two tiles, IIRC.

A fairly large quantity of exclusive Conclave maps? Don't make me laugh. We're talking about a few maps, all of which have been built with components that were reused from PvE tilesets. But even then, the size and number of maps pale in comparison to a single PvE tileset.

It's not even true that all of these things are exclusive to Conclave, because some maps got coopted for Index and Rathuum, as well. Most everything piggybacks on PvE, anyway. And the reworked Gas City map was definitely made with Index in mind, because not only was the old one much better suited for PvP, the new one also had bugs in Conclave that didn't get fixed for a while.

 

 

P.S.:

On 2020-02-23 at 2:03 AM, Corvid said:

I'm not making a qualitative argument regarding conclave. Whether or not it's good or bad is irrelevant to my point.

You're not making a quantitative argument, either. "More than before" just doesn't cut it. So what's left?

[Corvid]

You can disagree with the facts all you want, but it is indisputable that DE has, as I originally stated, put more and more work into making the PvP modes with each successive iteration. And said work has not been justified with a proportional increase in player counts.

Your argument is that "Just putting in the effort" would be enough to make the mode popular. Mine is that based on historical precedent, there is no reason to believe that that is the case. Some games just don't attract a PvP crowd, and Warframe is one of them.

Also, Rathuum and Index are irrelevant, as the maps were originally developed exclusively for conclave. That they were recycled at a later point and used for PvE activities does not change their original purpose. Furthermore, in any game that has both a substantial PvE and a PvP mode, the former will almost invariably have a much larger number of maps/areas, so I'm not sure why you think tilesets help your argument.