Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

8 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

replace invasions with warframe MOBA. squad vs squad with spawning grineer/corpus/infested minions that oppose each other. killing minions and opposing tenno gradually unlocks capacity so that your warframe, weapon, and sentinel mods activate in the order in which they are slotted, and ultimate "level" unlocks your arcanes.

Yeah thats basically what the PvP mode in the second incarnation of Solar Rail Conflicts was like.

[Corvid]

And once again, this thread gets dredged up after a week of inactivity.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

4 hours ago, BlueMartian said:

No. And attempting to balance it? They can't balance PvE,

PvE is actually pretty balanced. People just make their weapons and gear able to fight level 70 missions (like sorties) then mostly fight low level enemies. 

People like you don't understand that after forma and other bonuses weapons in warframe are made to kill the higher enemies. 

Its like monster hunter. In monster hunter you have low rank, high rank, and Master rank. 

Low rank monsters have a max health of 5k. Master rank monsters have a max of 66,000 health. Taking a master rank weapon designed to kill master rank monsters is going to trivialize low rank monsters. 

That's exactly what Warframe's position is right now. And it's rather silly for people like to complain that an end game weapon is making low game content easy.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

On 2020-05-10 at 3:26 AM, Corvid said:

And once again, this thread gets dredged up after a week of inactivity.

Yes.

[Kainosh]

On 2020-05-10 at 11:38 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Its like monster hunter

Nothing like it.

I play MHW.  Hunting Tempered Elders and doing Safi/Kulve now.

 

Thing is, MHW splits players properly.  You cant go Master rank without beating almost all of High rank.  And when you go Master, there is almost nothing for you to do on High. 

Also, weapons in MHW are pretty balanced.  You cant outdamage someone by 95%  if you are in the same Tier.  Never gonna happen.

In Warframe you get Kuva Bramma and Aklex Prime.  Both mr 15.   Also, you get all the strong stuff from "ez" starchart missions.  You don't have to beat AT Nergigante to remove mastery Cap.  You can just grind som MR fodder.

 

Warfame is not balanced. At all. 

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

On 2020-05-10 at 4:26 AM, Corvid said:

And once again, this thread gets dredged up after a week of inactivity.

I have created an immortal thread apparently

[Corvid]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

I have created an immortal thread apparently

More like you've attracted the attention of a necromancer.

 

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

3 hours ago, Corvid said:

More like you've attracted the attention of a necromancer.

 

Is it so far outside the realm of possibility for a thread about PvP to be current in general discussion for months? I don't believe so. Maybe PvP is just a topic worth discussing.

[Corvid]

3 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Is it so far outside the realm of possibility for a thread about PvP to be current in general discussion for months?

It is when the same person repeatedly responds to it after several days of inactivity, artificially dragging it back to the front page.

3 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

I don't believe so. Maybe PvP is just a topic worth discussing.

Or maybe it's not, and you just can't let that go.

[Sevek7]

2 minutes ago, Corvid said:

It is when the same person repeatedly responds to it after several days of inactivity, artificially dragging it back to the front page.

Or maybe it's not, and you just can't let that go.

I mean, not everybody has the time to check the forums every single day, the situation you describe seems pretty common to me.

I want to make a point about some of your earlier posts, I've skimmed the entire thread but may have missed if someone already pointed this out, so I apologize if this is a repetition!

You mentioned that every time DE have tried to make PvP a thing, it has failed. This is correct, of course. But perhaps instead of saying "It's always failed therefore don't try again," maybe we should ask why it failed? PvP is generally popular in many games, including the typical Looter-shooter games. So what has warframe done differently? Perhaps if we can find the differences, we can isolate the reason for failure. 

I'm not sure how many differences there are. But there is one glaring one that I think is probably the main reason: DE does not punish or ban exploiters and cheaters. This is a radically different approach to the other games. I suspect this is the reason why PvP has failed in Warframe. Let me know if you think there is another reason that might contribute more than this.

[(XBOX)Calliber]

No, PvP will not be successful outside of some niche groups of players.

Requires normalization of weapons, frame, and abilities; this is the primary issue.  Also would require stable host connections, something WF isn't really known for.  And then the final issue, you need people willing to play it and WF....I doubt you'll find that in any significant number without adding in some really good cosmetic rewards, this is a heavily weighted PvE game.

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

Part of the Conclave problem is that all the skills I honed in PvE don't properly work. Things just don't feel the same or play the same. (Throwing the castanas...) Meanwhile I enjoy Lunaro because it plays like the regular game to me.

So, first up, normalize that.

Next up, respawn faster, don't make it a punishment.

Don't nerf rewards for lower conclave ranked players/buff them for higher ranked. I tested this with a friend, it's stupid annoying.

I heard from a friend there used to be conclave nodes, and it was just basically a free for all, full mods and it sounded hilariously fun.

Make it fun. Think less balance and more Immortal Space Zombie Ninja children playing full contact Hide and Seek/Tag/Calvinball

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

Perhaps if we can find the differences, we can isolate the reason for failure. 

I can save you some time there, the difference is thus: The community that formed around this game is one that (for the most part) does not want PvP. So trying to focus on it is simply going to result in a mode that most existing players won't play, and few (if any) new players will join specifically for it.

[Sevek7]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Calliber said:

No, PvP will not be successful outside of some niche groups of players.

Requires normalization of weapons, frame, and abilities; this is the primary issue.  Also would require stable host connections, something WF isn't really known for.  And then the final issue, you need people willing to play it and WF....I doubt you'll find that in any significant number without adding in some really good cosmetic rewards, this is a heavily weighted PvE game.

I'm not sure if you've played conclave, but the weapons, frames and abilities are actually quite balanced! (Aside from some notable things that are currently bugged and due to be fixed, since those bugs have been reported.)

Conclave also uses dedicated servers for public matches, so there's your stable host connection. 

So yes, you would be right, if conclave wasn't normalized and balanced, but it is! And you would be right if there were no dedicated servers, but there are! These are problems that DE obviously anticipated and took steps to avoid. I'm all for everyone sharing opinions, but please keep it to informed opinions.

2 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Part of the Conclave problem is that all the skills I honed in PvE don't properly work. Things just don't feel the same or play the same. (Throwing the castanas...) Meanwhile I enjoy Lunaro because it plays like the regular game to me.

So, first up, normalize that.

Next up, respawn faster, don't make it a punishment.

Don't nerf rewards for lower conclave ranked players/buff them for higher ranked. I tested this with a friend, it's stupid annoying.

I heard from a friend there used to be conclave nodes, and it was just basically a free for all, full mods and it sounded hilariously fun.

Make it fun. Think less balance and more Immortal Space Zombie Ninja children playing full contact Hide and Seek/Tag/Calvinball

You're right that the PvE skills don't help in PvP. But that's because PvE is "Press 4 to wipe the room." I'm not sure how that "skill" could be incorporated in PvP 🙂 Normalizing this might require making PvE more challenging, not sure how that would work out. I agree that respawns should be faster, the 5 second wait is pointless. I'm not sure how the standing gains are calculated for different players, I always assumed it was based on performance, not ranking. This could be looked at to make sure it makes sense, I wouldn't be surprised if standing gains are also bugged at the moment! Full mods would be a bit problematic with today's warframe, since with shield gating everyone would bring decaying dragon key and just spam abilities to max the shields, but I would certainly be open to something with PvE stuff being used in PvP. Hide and Seek would also be fun as a non-traditional PvP 🙂

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

I can save you some time there, the difference is thus: The community that formed around this game is one that (for the most part) does not want PvP. So trying to focus on it is simply going to result in a mode that most existing players won't play, and few (if any) new players will join specifically for it.

I mean... The community also formed around small indoor missions. Doe this mean open worlds should be scrapped? 

Take any other looter-shooter, the community that forms around those games is also one that (for the most part) does not want PvP. But people will try the PvP anyway, and some will like it enough to continue playing and enjoying it. But if those games allowed rampant exploits and never banned cheaters, I'm sure their PvP would die out too. 

I typically try not to make generalizations about the community, and can only speak about my own experience. What draw me to Warframe was the mobility system and fluid feel of the combat. PvE gets stale for me because the optimal strategy is to avoid using any of those systems. With adaptation, the best strategy is to stand still and keep taking hits. With max range abilities and massive AOE weapons that deal far more damage than all the single target weapons, there is no reason to aim unless you're specifically trying to handicap yourself. Conclave is where I find the thing that drew me to Warframe, I doubt that I'm alone in this feeling.

In short, the community has shown they will adapt and try new things, as evidenced by open worlds, non-traditional gameplay systems like fishing and mining, pet breeding, K-drives, space combat in Archwing and Railjack, etc... I doubt that the adaptability just coincidentally happens to end with PvP, I think it's far more likely that the exploits have driven people away.

[OrlockCedar]

I honestly think the whole PvP in Warframe should be axed. It's an aspect that is getting more and more outside of what DE wants the game to be intended for: PvE Co-op. 

[(XBOX)Calliber]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

I'm not sure if you've played conclave, but the weapons, frames and abilities are actually quite balanced! (Aside from some notable things that are currently bugged and due to be fixed, since those bugs have been reported.)

Conclave also uses dedicated servers for public matches, so there's your stable host connection.

I'm aware of the changes to them for conclave, but I've never heard it described as balanced (tongue in cheek).

You mean the Player driven Deds?  Those don't exist on console as far as I know.

[Sevek7]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Calliber said:

I'm aware of the changes to them for conclave, but I've never heard it described as balanced (tongue in cheek).

You mean the Player driven Deds?  Those don't exist on console as far as I know.

Ah sorry I don't know what it's like for consoles. That's too bad you don't get dedicated servers, they're pretty nice! As for the balance, try out a conclave match with your friends and just avoid the currently bugged weapons, you'll see it's pretty balanced! [Note: some people define "unbalanced" as "anything that kills me." By that definition, conclave is very unbalanced, but I assume that's not the definition we're using 🙂]

4 hours ago, OrlockCedar said:

I honestly think the whole PvP in Warframe should be axed. It's an aspect that is getting more and more outside of what DE wants the game to be intended for: PvE Co-op. 

Nice logic. Let's axe anything that isn't PvE Co-op? No more fashion frame, no more fishing, mining, pet breeding, K-drives, solo play, etc... ?

The game is successful when it branches out and caters to many different types of player. If the game was only one thing and nothing else, it would have failed years ago. Personally, I don't care for pet breeding, fishing, or mining. But I understand that their purpose is to entice a wide variety of different kinds of players. I also understand that I'm not the only player, and not everything has to be designed for me. I don't suggest we "axe" things that I personally don't like, and if I did suggest that, I seriously hope DE would put my suggestion in the trash where it belongs. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Sevek7

[OrlockCedar]

1 minute ago, Sevek7 said:

Nice logic. Let's axe anything that isn't PvE Co-op. No more fashion frame, no more fishing, mining, pet breeding, K-drives, solo play, etc... 

???

[Sevek7]

Just now, OrlockCedar said:

???

Sorry if I was unclear. You said:

4 hours ago, OrlockCedar said:

I honestly think the whole PvP in Warframe should be axed. It's an aspect that is getting more and more outside of what DE wants the game to be intended for: PvE Co-op.

Which suggests you think anything that is not "PvE Co-op" should be axed. 

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

9 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Part of the Conclave problem is that all the skills I honed in PvE don't properly work

Yes, you can't just press 4 in every fight you get in while you are playing Conclave.

 

9 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Next up, respawn faster, don't make it a punishment.

Is a 3 second respawn timer really a "punishment" ?
 

 

9 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Don't nerf rewards for lower conclave ranked players/buff them for higher ranked. I tested this with a friend, it's stupid annoying.

That is not how that works at all. I'd be interested in the methodology of how you tested this. I think there was more than user error during that process.
 

 

9 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

I heard from a friend there used to be conclave nodes, and it was just basically a free for all, full mods and it sounded hilariously fun.

Yes, there were Conclave nodes. It was not a free for all. It was 2v2s or lower. While technically you could use any mod (except you know, rage, qt, aura mods, etc.) the mods had a point value assigned to them. Serration was worth 75, for an example. The weapons and frames also had point values associated with them. All of these Conclave nodes had point brackets on them. The one on Venus was 300-600 if I remember correctly. Anyway, if the total number of points in your loadout fell on or between those brackets, you could matchmake on that node. What typically happened was that someone would unequip everything except a Warframe and a primary weapon, put all the mods on that primary weapon, proceed to enter a lower level node and then pubstomp low CC score players who were playing the node. It was not hilariously fun. There is a reason we have Conclave 2.0
 

 

9 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Make it fun.

It is fun. It just isn't fun for you. Doesn't mean it isn't fun for anyone else.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

12 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Part of the Conclave problem is that all the skills I honed in PvE don't properly work. Things just don't feel the same or play the same. (Throwing the castanas...) Meanwhile I enjoy Lunaro because it plays like the regular game to me.

So, first up, normalize that.

Next up, respawn faster, don't make it a punishment.

Don't nerf rewards for lower conclave ranked players/buff them for higher ranked. I tested this with a friend, it's stupid annoying.

I heard from a friend there used to be conclave nodes, and it was just basically a free for all, full mods and it sounded hilariously fun.

Make it fun. Think less balance and more Immortal Space Zombie Ninja children playing full contact Hide and Seek/Tag/Calvinball

I'd like to know more about your opinions on all of this. I'd actually say that conclave is much more similar to PvE than lunaro is. I main mostly the same gear in both modes (Oberon, Ogris, Staticor, Wolf Sledge, ect.) and the type of functions they have aren't heavily changed. They just work on a different scale, so my ability to use them transfers between both modes. Ogris is my favorite example of that, since it was something I majorly used before I really got into conclave, and skills like leading shots at long ranges with its specific flight speed are what helped me to reach max rank.

3 seconds to respawn is actually kinda short, considering it'll take, at minimum, 4 seconds to regenerate shields, and usually takes 8 seconds. Even in general, that's a pretty normal respawn time. Games with shorter respawn times usually have much shorter kill times as well, so that people are spending a certain percentage of the match in combat. Conclave generally has long kill times.

I hate that concept too. IIRC, the percentage of affinity that's converted into standing increases with each rank. I think the standing difference through performance alone is enough as it is, while being an actual skill reward, so players don't need to be rewarded even more beyond that for ranking up.

I've never played those old nodes, but they seemed really imbalanced and centralized.

I think it's already fun, but I also sorta agree. After the current gear options are balanced, I'd love to just see more added. More weapons, more frames, more mods. I think PvE and PvP have many of the same appeal factors, like the degree of loadout customization, and ability to use mechanical skill, but to very different degrees. I'd like to see them take a little more from each other, like PvE rewarding mechanical skill more, and PvP rewarding well-made loadouts more. The combination of mechanical and technical skill is something I think almost anybody can appreciate, and in PvE neither one would be a requirement if you have the other, unless maybe you're doing some hardcore endurance, and in PvP, you'd need need just as much of a sum as your opponent, rather than any specific spread or balance of it.

I say that I 'sorta agree', because the gear balance is really important. Balance promotes variety in usage, rather than just having variety in options, which won't matter when people are are using something like the current version of Telos Boltace to absolutely destroy anyone who isn't super skilled and/or using the few gear options which work especially well against it. (Not to mention that its effect can take you out of a fight for longer (sometimes much longer) than the respawn time.) It's the same basic reason why devs are constantly balancing stuff in PvE games, especially co-op ones, granted it's not quite as important as in PvP.

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

13 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Is a 3 second respawn timer really a "punishment" ?
 

It's five seconds, and if you don't like doing something, like conclave, it drags out.

13 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

That is not how that works at all. I'd be interested in the methodology of how you tested this. I think there was more than user error during that process.
 

A friend and I went to grind out some conclave together, he's a hardcore collector and already rank 5, I think I hit rank two.

I was disappointed with the point gain I was getting and he mentioned he was getting more. 'Oh,' we said, 'it must be because you're slaughtering me.'

Then he decided to let me just beat his head in a few times so I could grind up faster.

So even 5-0 he was getting more points.

13 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

What typically happened was that someone would unequip everything except a Warframe and a primary weapon, put all the mods on that primary weapon, proceed to enter a lower level node and then pubstomp low CC score players who were playing the node. It was not hilariously fun. There is a reason we have Conclave 2.0

That sounds like a flaw in matchmaking methodology.

9 hours ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I'd like to know more about your opinions on all of this.

Okay, so going to kind of stream of conscious and not go point by point because I am stuck on my phone in a hospital waiting room.

Skills work the way I like, mostly. But the guns don't handle the way they do in PvE, especially considering I mod then for handling preference.

I wanted to try my castanas in with Loki. They flop. Not the damage, the flight arc. They go a few meters, if that. I admit, that was my first experience and it tainted the whole experience, badly.

Powers that you have to mod for you no longer can, not unless you do massive conclave standing grind for the mods, and even then...

Lunaro, I find, actively helps my aim in PvE. The ball itself is it's own thing, so it doesn't feel like a not-right something else. It flies like I'd expect a ball to fly.

Lunaro is fast paced and the danger is non existant, while in PvP proper it is high, and in PvE it is minimal.

And then there's the...damage? Satisfaction? Lunaro it is either yay I got a point/points vs drat I missed. PvP is, you hit, but not hit enough, so you don't get the high of success in every engagement, or fast turn over, or quickly adapting to doing better next time, because chances are you are dead.

I mean, my friends and I lulz off beating the crap out of each other in the simulacrum every now and then, but never in conclave.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

It's five seconds, and if you don't like doing something, like conclave, it drags out.

On the bright side, it is 5 seconds of you not playing Conclave.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

A friend and I went to grind out some conclave together, he's a hardcore collector and already rank 5, I think I hit rank two.

I was disappointed with the point gain I was getting and he mentioned he was getting more. 'Oh,' we said, 'it must be because you're slaughtering me.'

Then he decided to let me just beat his head in a few times so I could grind up faster.

So even 5-0 he was getting more points.

Ok, so how were you getting the kills? Were they "style kills" ? (kills while sliding, kills while in the air, headshots, etc.). Did your friend complete any challenges during those matches? How quickly did the match where he let you win end?

There's a thousand and one things that can affect how much standing you can gain from a Conclave match.

7 minutes ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

That sounds like a flaw in matchmaking methodology.

A way to fix that would have been to have point brackets assigned to each piece of gear inside of your loadout, rather than the combined point value of all of your gear. It was indeed a massive flaw in matchmaking methodology.

[Oreades]

As long as it remains a distant afterthought, then lol no. 

That said if they try to force it to the forefront they're likely to tank the PvE side of the game soooo also no. 

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Sorry if I was unclear. You said:

Which suggests you think anything that is not "PvE Co-op" should be axed. 

Kinda stretching what he says in several different ways. Not only does he not say Co-op PvE, but most of the things you listed are effectively also covered by the E as in environment. Fashion is also not a seperate game mode, which is what he is refering to with PvP.

edit: Just as solo play is not a seperate game mode, it is an option to tackle game modes.

Edited May 16, 2020 by SneakyErvin